VFR arrivals at airfield in controlled airspace

[tacpot]

Big adventure coming up - first flight into an airport in controlled airspace (Class D) , so I wanted to ask for some advice on the correct radio terminology for one particular aspect.

When I call up APPROACH my call will (probably) be
"XXX APPROACH, G-ABCD"

On being invited to pass my message, my call will be

"G-ABCD is Cessna 152 Inbound from X with Information Y , presently location, maintaining Altitude on XXX QNH hhhh - the QNH from ATIS, Heading nnn, VMC, estimate zone boundary at mm, request Joining Instructions"

My questions are
a) does the Request for Joining Instuctions imply that I am also requesting a clearance to enter controlled airspace or do I need to request this specifically in words?
b) does the request for Joining Instrcutions imply any kind of Service is being requested - I would quite like request a Radar Information Service (can I do this from APPROACH or do I need to call XXX RADAR first and then get handed over as I get closer to the controlled airspace?)

I didn't want the call to end "... request Joining Instructions, Radar Information, and clearance to enter the zone." as this seemed a bit long winded!

Would it be better to making my initial call "XXX APPROACH, G-ABCD for LARS and joining instructions" ?

Any and all advice appreciated.

[Keygrip]

First off - good luck with the trip, hope you enjoy.

Would suggest that you double check with the AIP (Air Pilot, as we used to call it) to see what regulations pertain to operating into that airspace - it may well be "Prior Permission" - or certain times of day, mandatory handling - whatever.

Before you go - ask somebody (with experience) at your club/school for any local procedures, and remember that when LEAVING the place to come home - ASK SOMEBODY for local departure procedures again!!

Now - the call.... may I remind you of your last line....
Any and all advice appreciated.
The question that strikes me is "Why do you need to ask this?" Your profile says you are a licensed pilot - and, by inference, your message says that you are going to use radios in the aircraft - this would suggest that you have already done an R/T exam and had an RT licence issued....but as I am a great pro-ponent of the phrase ASK IF YOU ARE UNSURE (and you have done) - the call....

Pretty good to be fair - nice short, sharp, message then shut up - let him come back to you. Absolutely no harm in asking for RIS or joining instructions in first call - especially if you did advise the airfield of your intended arrival on the phone before you went.

Anyway - only other bits I would do is DROP the words "presently" and "maintaining" with regards to location and altitude.

Forgive the use of sarcasm here but would you consider calling the Approcah guy and say "I used to be at location " - he knows by experience that the position you give is where you believe you are at the moment (note the word "believe" :) ).

Subsequent thought here - but did you never go into Class D airspace as a student, with an instructor?

Again - best of luck with the flight. Relax, enjoy, ASK. If you make a mistake - so what - you'll learn from it for next time (positive trip!!).

Tell us how it went (and what you learned).

[Chilli Monster]

Ok - where to start

Make life easy for the Controller - Initial call:

"**** radar, G-ABCD, inbound, information ? QNH ****, request (type of service required)".

In this one call you've given him all that he needs to start with. Now, if you've phoned ahead and 'booked in' he'll already have a strip on you - so he won't need half the stuff you'd give him in the 'pass your message' broadcast.

If you've not booked in he'll pick up an arrival strip as opposed to a transit strip and when he says pass your message all you need tell him is type, position, level, point of departure and whether you want to arrive VFR or IFR. That's it - no heading, no request joining instructions, no inside leg measurement. He'll give you clearance to enter the zone, he'll tell you how he wants you to join.

Short - succint and simple and about half as long as the transmission you suggested you were going to make.

In answer to your other question you'll find that the units main radar frequency will be the approach frequency - the two jobs are combined these days and have been at a lot of places for many years. Don't ask for LARS - if they're not a LARS unit then that would be rather silly plus many pilots ask for this without thinking. LARS is just an acronym for a class of service - it is not an actual type of ATC service - RIS/RAS/FIS (outside CAS) are what people should ask for - even from a LARS unit (I get it all the time - believe me I know ;)).

Do the above and you'll sound like a pro - enjoy the trip.

[tacpot]

My inclination is to always question why I do not the answer to a question! So Keygrips points are very valid and well made.

I did fly through controlled airspace during my training but not very much. I never landed at an airfield inside controlled airspace though. In the UK, a common provider of radar services are military bases operating this thing called "Lower Airspace Radar Service" - LARS for short. Such bases tend to be in Class G airspace, so I've done zone pentrations throuh Class D, and had Radar Services from airports in Class D where I've not gone into the airspace, and had Radar Services from military bases. So I've never met the situation I will be meeting shortly.

Although licensed, I am not experienced, and in common with a number of other beginners, I would prefer to ask around beforehand, rather than appear incompetent on the radio. :oh:

It's not really a big issue - if the controller didn't say "Clear to enter the zone" in response to my message, I would ask for the clearance to be given explicitly. Similarly the traffic situation suggested a radar inforamtion service would be helpful, and it hadn't been issued automatically, I'd just ask for it when I realised it might help.

The airport does have publish VFR arrivals procedures, but these concentrate on operations within the controlled airspace - I've checked the AIP for this information.

Thanks for the advice regarding the "presently/maintaining" - I tend to be a big "wordy" on the radio, so it's a useful reminder not to be!

Thanks also to CM for the improved first call and the reminder that the controller will require the Point of Departure. As I intend to request a particular VFR arrivals procdure, CM's subsequent call gives me an opportunity to fit this request in also. I'll try to phone ahead and pass some details by phone, so they can have the strip ready.

I am expecting to enjoy the trip tremendously and learn a good deal. I'm planning the trip for the end of the month, and given my qualifications, it will be very dependant on the weather whether I fly or drive. I'd be very glad to post a report on Private Flying on the trip, it would be a way to put something back into PPRuNe in return for the valuable advice.

Thanks

[flower]

Hi Tacpot,
I assume you are talking about your trip to visit us at Cardiff ATC,
Chilli Monster has some good advice for you and you may even speak to his unit on route to us.
I will be posting further on PVT Flyers regarding the trip with reminders on Standard VFR routes etc to make sure you are fully Briefed.

Class D airspace isn't a major worry honest :)

[tmmorris]

Chilli Monster - CAP413 says that the initial call for a service from a LARS unit should be

XXXX Radar, G-ABCD, request Lower Airspace Radar Service.

followed when requested by the full message; so the phrase is used. Personally I don't (I'd just say 'XXXX Radar, G-ABCD request RIS') but it is in the book...

Keygrip - I was taught to make position reports after turning, establishing on new heading, settling myself down, &c. (aviate - navigate - communicate) and if necessary (especially on a busy frequency) to report 'G-ABCD was at Blanksbury time 21' &c. if the time has already passed. Was this correct, then? It must be more useful (and accurate) than 'G-ABCD is ... err ... about 3 miles NW of Blanksbury, time 24...', surely?

Tim

[Chilli Monster]

tmmorris

Notwithstanding what the CAP413 says (I'm fully aware of its contents thank you) I'm stating what is preferred from the point of a current LARS controller. CAP413 is fine for guidance - but in that particular circumstance it's time it was changed. A typical example is when someone uses the CAP413 call, asking for LARS, and then when you quiz him on what type of service they want it turns out to be a FIS - look up the definition of 'FIS' and you'll see the contradiction.

CAP413 also says to report your heading in the 'pass your message' call. From an ATCO's viewpoint we're not interested in your heading unless we ask for it - after all being, in most cases, VFR, you can fly whatever the hell heading you like ;)

Estimates are another piece of useless information, especially as far as radar units are concerned. We know what you are, normally we can see you, we know how fast you go. If we want an estimate (i.e for an airways joining clearance) we'll ask for it - but other than that a lot of the time it's superfluous information.

[tacpot]

flower: Yes, I asked the question for my visit to you. I was hoping for comments such as Chill Monster's as these reflect what works best for the controller. I too am familiar with contents of CAP413 - (aren't we all!), but I realise that within the correct phrasiology set out within CAP413 there is a fair bit of latitude to use only what is necessary.

The Cardiff LARS visit is a brilliant opportunity to stretch myself as a pilot, and also see the situation from the 'other side', all on the same day! Thank you very much for arranging this, flower.