Illegal Landing? (or 'Much Ado About Nothing' ?)

[jonnyg]

Yesterday I watched a 109 Power land here, it was 20 metres from the beach with tourists on, to the left was a restaurant which was open and in front of it was a hotel. The pilot actually put down in the car park of the hotel (with cars in it). LZ approx. 400 square metres (20m X 20m). I´m told the customer was a German (D- reg 109) with too much money! Just how many rules did he break?

[Martin1234]

Would you have cared as much if it was an R22 with the pilot renting it?

[Training Risky]

Is there a 500' bubble that exists in Spanish airlaw? Or are we all operating to the same rules now (JAR) ?

[Thomas coupling]

You should have spoken to the pilot first. Judged his/her response and decided whether they had appreciated a debrief from yourself re - the rules, if they didn't I would then report them to the CAA.



I'm ready..........Flak jacket on.

[jonnyg]

Martin1234, it doesnt matter if it was a R22 or a Chinook it was just the fact they did it. One day it could roll over or some idiot run through the tail rotor and yet again it would all our fault.´ And YES I do care when someone does something like that...

Training Risky, the flying I´ve done out here was always on the 500ft rule.

[Vizsla]

How do you know he didn't have permission from hotel etc.
How do you reconcile Medivacs landing in London Streets & parks.
Anything can look dangerous from a distance but if the landing was under control, as has been said, "who cares" - I sense a little pang of envy....

[Heliport]

jonnyg
I'm only guessing, but perhaps it was your "I'm told the customer was a German (D- reg 109) with too much money!" comment which gave Martin1234 (and now Vizsla) the impression the green eyed monster was about. ;)

"Just how many rules did he break?"
You're the one who suggests it was an 'illegal' - you tell us. What is/are the relevant Spanish law(s)? [Your profile doesn't say if your PPL is UK or Spanish but, as you fly in Mallorca, I assume you can help us with the Spanish rules/regs.]

Based on your experience, what was it about the landing which you consider was dangerous?

[vorticey]

seems safer and a better decision than blowing sand all over everybody on the beech

[Bullet Tooth Tony]

I'm pretty sure the 500' rule doesn't apply when landing! Otherwise we're all in trouble.

[Flying Lawyer]

jonnyg

In the UK, the 500' rule doesn't apply to aircraft landing (or taking off) or, as BTT says, we'd all be in trouble. If Spanish law is the same, the A109 pilot didn't break the 500' rule.

You say the flying you've done in Mallorca has always been "on the 500ft rule." Even if your PPL is UK issue, I assume you know the equivalent Spanish rule. What is it?

[Av8r]

Quite possibly the landing was quite legal, with the owner’s approval of course.

However, now we come into that grey area of "airmanship" the blanket rule when there is no rule. Sounds to me like his "airmanship" may have been a little questionable.

He got the job done, and now can make 1/2 a payment on his machine but in the mean time, does a great disservice to the industry and generally pisses people off, all so as 'rich German' can have lunch. Those pissed off people are the same ones who remember that elitist event with sand in their eyes' and lobby to close the local helipad.

Now an EMS machine picking up a half drowned punter from that car park is a whole different event.

[rotorboater]

I think even I can land in a 20M x 20M clear space safely!

[Head Turner]

Here is a situation where I believe that the fingeres hit the keyboard before the brain was put in gear.
500' rule applies to avoidance of people, property animals etc and obviously does not apply to landing and taking off.
Place of landing is the responsibility of several persons. Firstly the pilot, then the owner of the property, police, aviation authority, controllers of the local bylaws, neighbours, fire and ambulance services and several more.
Reason for landing. Was your appraisal for the reason correct. Just looking is unfair and inaccurate. You ought to enquire.

I have had a couple of low flying complaints against me which is not only time consuming but places one under a guilty banner even before official enquires are complete. On both occasions the reporters were not only inaccurate in their assumptions they were quite vindictive in the way they reported the incidents.
The CAA have the duty to investigate incidents and its often only following detailed investigations, costing vast sums, that the truth is exposed.
So please be careful when you accuse someone of something when either you are really not in a knowledgeable position or do not have all the facts.
Journalist like to sensationalise for reward. The absense of proper reporting can injure inocent parties.

[Heliport]

" .......... fingers hit the keyboard before the brain was put in gear. "So please be careful when you accuse someone of something when either you are really not in a knowledgeable position or do not have all the facts."

Couldn't agree more. :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0171]

How do you reconcile Medivacs landing in London Streets & parks.

Don't these guys have to get special clearance from the CAA?

I'm curious, Just what permissions does a helicopter pilot have to get to land somewhere like a park or hotel car park?
Is it just the permission of the person running the place or do the CAA have to be in the loop somewhere?

Thanks,

Gary.

[Helinut]

Gary,

The short (but not very helpful) answer to your question is that it all depends...............
[All this relates to the UK]

Trying to be a bit more helpful but only summarising what is a minefield.............

1. Most landings require the landowners' permission BUT HEMS and police flying has special exemptions/permissions that allow them to land without specific permission of the landowner.

2. In general, a landing inside a congested area (not at a licensed field) needs to have specific permission from the CAA (cos otherwise it represents a breach of Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air). HOWEVER, there are a series of exemptions to this- police and HEMS can land without CAA specific permission, so long as they operate in accordance with set down procedures and limits (recorded in detail in Operations manuals etc.) In addtion, some commercial operators have a general permission to make such landings, that are controlled and recorded in a broadly similar way to those of the police/HEMS. They have to have a special section added to their Ops Manual that sets all these things down. You get this if you are trusted and experienced in such things.(These all apply only to multi-engine helicopters)

I'm getting bored now, but that is the general gist........

OH yes! Nearly forgot - the important thing is that whatever special rule applies the basic rule (Rule 5 again) that single engine failure should not put persons or proeprty at risk on the ground still applies, so it all has to be Group A/Category 1 etc. etc.

[PPRuNeUser0171]

Cheers Helinut,

I was aware that you MUST have a multi-engined helicopter for London over-flights and I've had the pleasure of seeing G-HEMS land in some interesting places as well.... Always prefered the Dauphin to whatever it is they are using today!

Another question!

Do you know of any web sites/books that talk about helicopter operations over London or other big cities?

Thanks!

Gary.

[John Eacott]

Conversely, CASA let pretty much alone down here, and pilot assessment suffices for landings whether in the bush or in a city. CAAP 92.2 gives advisory on what would be expected, especially if something ends in tears and the pilot has to justify his assessment :(

Bigger problem is local laws, and council approvals (if required). Landowner's permission is needed, of course, but some local councils also have restrictions or bans on what they will allow in their shire. Even the interpretation of what consists a helipad or a heliport, more money for the legal eagles to argue over, unfortunately. Sydney, NSW, is a minefield, since the State EPA are rabidly anti helicopter, and require months of work to consider a helipad, plus oodles of $$.

Victoria is still easier, and it pays to be nice to the right people, and operate with a degree of "neighbour-friendliness". Even though they don't have to give permission, a polite call to CASA to let them know when something unusual is planned works wonders, same with the local coppers. If they're in the loop, they can stop whingers before they run to the media and blow things out of proportion!

[Red Wine]

Perhaps the guy owned the place................then he could come and go as he saw fit...............what are those cars doing in my Helipad he may ask??

And 20 x 20 is oddles of room.!!!!

The local councils with their "Planning Permits" are the most restrictive......normally limiting the frequency of arriving and departing aircraft to XX / day.

[Thomas coupling]

Didn't all this happen in Spain?

What are the rules for this over there then Johnny?

[Hoverman]

So now TC is asking what the Spanish rules are?
Good question! :ok:
Shame he didn't think of it before. At the beginning of the thread he was all for reporting the German 109 pilot to the CAA!! :rolleyes:

We start off with some knowall PPL saying the 109 pilot did an illegal landing but then when he's asked to substantiate his allegation he can't and disappears.
TC says the PPL should have 'debriefed' the pilot and if he wasn't satisfied with the explanation, "I would then report them to the CAA."
I can see it now. "Excuse me, I'm a helicopter pilot. I've got a PPL. I fly R22s. I want to debrief you about that landing you've just done." Wonder what the Spanish (or German) is for 'P*ss Off!'

Some heli pilots are far keen on condemning other pilots. Even if the 109 guy was pushing his luck, so what? No harm was done.
Reporting other pilots sucks.

PS
JonnyG has already been asked to tell us the Spanish rules. All he could manage was that he always flies "on the 500ft rule" which has got naff all to do with landing or taking off.
Perhaps he's still looking it up. :8

[Heliport]

I've emailed JonnyG inviting him to provide more details about what was "illegal" and to tell us the relevant Spanish rules.

[Thomas coupling]

Hoverman: get out of bed the wrong side today, eh? I realised it was Spain fairly early on, but forgot to edit my post....sorry about that, my lord.

If someone holds a PPL surely you must recognise this as atleast the first professional rung on the flying ladder, no? Don't make them out to be stupid, they know a little about helos.

If I was in the vicinity and witnessed a large(ish) helo like the 109, land in amongst some cars in a car park and "felt" it to be 'without due consideration' / 'ignorant of its surroundings' / crass stupidity'....then I would most certainly speak to the driver, as I would any driver of any machine which might cause damage/injury to bypassers due to an irresponsible attitude. You don't need to know the 'rules' to action that.

If the observer witnessing the activity knew a lot more about the rules and felt that these had been infringed, then I would
(a) talk to the driver first - politely, to determine his/her motives, and,
(b) based on their response, leave it there or report them to the aviation authorities - no qualms whatsoever.

We've discussed this 'snitching' episode before so let's not go over it all again.

The rules are the rules...someone breaks them (to the detriment of innocent bypassers)...."book 'em danno" :rolleyes:

[Vfrpilotpb]

I have regularly used the fine services of a local hotel, who have had the foresight to have a well marked and drained LZ for Helicopters, permission is of the blanket type in that a top up mob call is all that is needed, the landing area is roughly 100 x 50 yds and in past months I have seen as many as five helis from R22's to A109's parked there, the Hotel is a further 50 yds from the nearest rotortip and the enormous car park is again about 50 yds from the nearest Rotortip, it creates a lot of interest to the Hotel guests and staff alike when the urgent beat of a landing chopper is heard, it looks and feels as safe as house's , but looking on the Black side of things a loose blade or Blades may turn this into some one's idea of being to close to people who may be stood watching, oh and its about 100 yards from one of our local A roads.

Many Regards,

Peter R-B

:D

[Another KOS]

This thread is interesting because of the assumptions made about the 500' rule - and the implication that we all fly to the same rules:

All States' regulations take consideration of ICAO Annex 2 - Rules of the Air, which briefly, for VFR, state that "except when necessary for take-off and landing, or except by permission from the appropriate authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown...at a height less than 500ft above the ground or water."

OK how does that play in regulations:

Well in the UK, aside from the recent proposed changes to the ANO, 'the bubble' posted by Jonnyg (not quite in compliance is it?). Generally elsewhere in Europe, the rule is applied as written.

My limited knowledge of CARs indicates that Canada has a similar ' bubble' rule.

What about the main player - the US. Well from memory FAR 91.119(c) has a modified rule with 'the bubble'. However in FAR 91.119(d), the helicopter is given the right to ingnore (c) above if flown without hazard... (also not in compliance with ICAO - except if you consider this to be 'with permission from the appropriate authority').

More difficult to understand is the application of the other part of this Standard "...over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements...1000 ft above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft" - which the US, also in FAR 91.119(d), gives the helicopter the right to ignore - if flown without hazard. (It should be made clear however that FAR 135.203(b) does restrict this city overflight to 300' above the surface.)

Even less clear than it seemed at first sight - at least in the US it's left to us helicopter pilots to act responsibly!

[Dantruck]

Rules in Spain are the same as the UK. You need the landowner's permission - that's it. Of course good airmanship/common sense rules also apply, but we'd all have to have been there to pass judgement on that one.

Also in Spain, Rule 5 - the 500ft rule - does not apply to helicopter take off and landings.

Had this occurred in the UK, the 'congested area' part of Rule 5(1)(c)(i) of the UK's ANO might arguably apply, however. The only take-off/landing exception available there applies to licensed aerodromes, I believe.

Wherever you are, in my experience the ultimate answer is to tell someone what you intend doing beforehand. That way you can at least say you notified relevant interested groups/the authorities. In Spain, this translates into little more than a phone call to the local ATC supervisor, and/or the local police. Both can be very helpful.

The police or even the Civil Guard will as likely turn up and cordon off the said car park for you, just for the exercise. You, of course, then take the time to stand and chat, show them the machine, swap phone numbers and stay in touch for future cooperation. You'll then be able to land in that hotel carpark anytime you like. Simple.

So, to re-cap...

Even assuming none of the above was done this Spanish landing was still legal, therefore. More likely, some or all of it was done, and everyone was even happier.

All except the bloke who started this thread, that is!

Oh, I'm bored now. Excuse me while I go and sit on the beach looking for German funded 109's
:p

[CyclicRick]

Just to add my tuppence worth: The 109 was German registered, I know the company and the aircraft but I don't know who was fly ing it at the time. Out of interest the rules here in Germany are fairly simple ( very strange for Germany I might add!). To land outside a designated helipad or airfield you have to;
a) be a commercial pilot
b) the landing area in not specified in size but must be "safe" at the discretion of the pilot in command. For pleasure flights, at a local fair or such, it must be 30x30 meters.
c) if within a town/ city boundary, permission from the local authority must be obtained
d) permission from the land owner must be obtained
e) if the company or owner of the aircraft has a "general off field landing permission"( Generelle Aussenlandegenehmigung) granted by the state authority, you can land where the hell you like without endangering people or property (common sense). They are very funny about flying over cars though!

I don't know what the Spanish rules are, but as posted earlier, methinks they are not that different.

Always try to remember, the next job you do might call for a tight landing somewhere which YOU think is ok from up there in your nice quiet ANR headsetted helicopter but someone down there might not think the same as you do at that moment so don't be too quick to condemn either side.