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Tankie
1st May 2003, 04:28
With the introduction of secure flight deck doors for flights to the USA, does anyone here feel that these will cause a breakdown of CRM, as access to the FD is now somewhat restricted?

jshg
1st May 2003, 05:06
They have certainly caused a massive CRM problem over here in the UK.

eng123
1st May 2003, 16:45
Sorry,a bit off topic but it has to be said that it's all well and good having a Kevlar,bullet proof door but what about the bulkhead [on a 737 at least] that seperates the capt from the fwd toilet and the F/O from the galley?
I wonder when someone will wake up to the fact that there is no protection from munitions there.The door will stop bodies getting into the flight deck which without doubt is good but F/D security can still be improved.

A4
1st May 2003, 16:53
Brilliant eng123.............:rolleyes:

mondriver
1st May 2003, 16:59
The strengthening of the bulkhead(s) either side of the door is the next phase of the mod which is to be implemented over the next few months (with our UK airline anyway...)

At least the FO has a couple of ovens to suck up any stray bullets !!

Max Angle
1st May 2003, 17:54
They are certainly causing CRM problems, the flightdeck is becoming "out of sight, out of mind" for a lot of cabin crew and I suspect the other way around for a lot of pilots. New video gear is making access a bit easier but IMHO the whole thing is a token gesture. If the CAA, Airlines and the DFT (bless em) where serious about it we would have El Al style double doors that actually do provide protection for the flightdeck.

BoarderDude
1st May 2003, 18:00
Guys, this is an open forum. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss any safety-related topics here.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

eng123
1st May 2003, 19:05
Maxangle,couldn't agree more,and thankyou to A4 for your worthwhile comments.
I feel it is a valid point about the bulkheads and I know that plans are in foot to address it,also,I'm sure that this isn't breaking news to OBL and co.

Miserlou
1st May 2003, 19:11
Wise up BoarderDude,

Any wannabe terrorist who gets his information from here is a no-hoper!
He'll probably end up more confused than the rest of us.

BoarderDude
1st May 2003, 19:32
Miserlou,

that's NOT the point I'm trying to make. I don't know if you are a pilot yourself and who you might work for, but my company and my union do not promote giving away free security info, and that is exactly what is happening here. It may be only bits and pieces, but please do not underestimate these people. September 11th taught us that.

Regards, BoarderDude

FougaMagister
1st May 2003, 21:57
All this talk about locked F/D doors is very nice, but exactly HOW does one fit a double, armed, door on aircraft such as the CRJ, where the original is a concertina door?

virgo
2nd May 2003, 04:25
I've been told that although the USA authorities demand the fitment of the re-inforced doors on all "foreign" aircraft entering US airspace, they are not yet required on US registered aircraft.

Also, they allow jump-seat use by airline staff.

Are these things true ?????????:confused:

Miserlou
2nd May 2003, 05:16
Jump Seaters are a safety issue.

On most aircraft the jumpseat blocks access to the cockpit.

So if you select a passenger at random and ask them to sit up front you will enhance safety by increasing the length of time it takes for an uninvited guest to interfere with the pilots.

Also, I've never had a jumpseater, whether airline staff or otherwise, who didn't enjoy it.

Its good PR and its cheaper than modifying the doors.

BoarderDude,
I don't underestimate the threat, grew up with it. I do however feel that the door issue is a RE-action. The most important thing is that we are aware of any threats and have some form of plan if we ever encounter them. I know of some-one who actually had some-one rush the cockpit and go for the power/condition levers. They had a plan which worked and were aided by other pax. years before 9/11.

Jim Spence
2nd May 2003, 08:06
Just completed several short hops with Continental Express ex IAH. On one sector, cockpit door was opened for the duration of flight, except during take off and landing. Door also opened during embarkation. (ERJ 145).

Strange because it appeared that the door could not latch open and had to be held open.

BoarderDude
2nd May 2003, 15:55
Miserlou,

thanks for your reply :ok: , really appreciate it. I guess we are on the same frequency after all, I also think the door is a REaction and more or less windowdressing. I just didn't like the "details" which were given here, like the brilliant observations of eng123.

Anyway, safe flying to all of you! :p :D :p :D :p

Notso Fantastic
3rd May 2003, 10:30
We may criticise these safety efforts, but we have to remember that it's possible Mohammed Atta or one or more of the 911 crowd was possibly already in the FD on an fake ID pass, and the dreadful Fedex saga of the pilot intending to kill himself and the DC10 crew by attacking them was also a jump seat pos crew. No wonder they are reacting like this!

eng123
3rd May 2003, 12:58
What is it with all these 'brilliant' comments?All I have stated are the FACTS about the bulkheads.I have since found out that steps are in place to rectify the problem but if anyone seriously believes that my comments are a revelation to terrorists are living in a dreamworld.All the relevant technical information with regard to commercial aircraft is available to anybody and everybody through more websites and books/magazines that it is possible to count!

cribble
3rd May 2003, 13:30
Meantime, back to the topic....

My airline's CRM people had just got a combined tech crew/flight attendant CRM training programme established when the door rules changed.

The programme was doing well in helping to break down the flt deck/cabin barriers to communication, so the CRM folks were really tearing their hair out at the new (to us) requirements.

It was then a matter of not bitching about it but working to limit the potential damage to good information flow. One potential benefit was that both tech crew and cabin crew now have to be much more accurate in communicating: face-to-face communication is no longer so easy so it's harder to get feedback ("was what was received the same as what was meant").

B767300ER
5th May 2003, 00:01
NotSoFantastic....Atta was'nt in the flight deck; they were sitting in first class, but seperately, when they commandeered the aircraft in question. The FBI report lists the seats they were assigned, and all hijackers were in the pax cabin.

In the US, flight deck doors won't matter if pilots are armed---the hijackers will just be shot once they break down the door. Nobody will ever commandeer a jet and use it as a suicide bomber again, if pilots are armed.

Smokie
5th May 2003, 18:05
Anybody who comes crashing through the flight deck door is obviously up to no good. A bullet would certainly ruin their day.
It would also make any other would be Hi-jacker think again.

If it were only a lone Hi-jacker, then job done.

If there were multiple Hi-jackers then I hope the weapon has a large magazine.

For the record, our "New improved " flight deck door Mods are a joke, sad to say.

Who ever designed it wants their @rse's kicking and so do the CAA for approving it.

I'm afraid that B&Q have probably made a fortune out of our airline.
The cost could not have been more than 15 each for the"Kit".
We've been told that each door mod costs about 15,000 per
door. :hmm:

Metro man
6th May 2003, 13:10
Solution - Do away with the cockpit door entirely ,weld a large piece of steel from one side of the aircraft to the other. Have a letter box arrangement for passing meals through. Flight deck crew to enter and leave via the cockpit emergency exit. Problem solved:ok:

fruitloop
6th May 2003, 15:43
To eng123
Had a good long look at one of the so called "doors" and have to agree with your prior comments regards Toilet wall and galley wall.The thing that really amused me was the viewing window !!!

Atropos
6th May 2003, 16:00
The new phase 2 doors are excellent and get over all the problems of the phase 1 doors. We are effectively back to where we were pre-Sep 11th as far as contact with the CC are concerned!:O