Wheels up - Go Around!

[Master of the House]

Anyone else hear this said by Adelaide tower to a beech 1900 yesterday - interesting... The aircraft looked lower than 500' to me, can't be sure though.

[Desert Flower]

No wheels, eh - what a Beech!! :O :D

[BIK_116.80]

A few months back, whilst on the ground awaiting departure, I saw an Airbus A320 go around from about 200 feet AGL - apparently because the gear was still up.

I first saw the Airbus when it was about 500 AGL and had been cleared to land, and I thought, "What's wrong with this picture"?

Then I thought "He's got no gear down!!!"

Then I thought "Nah - couldn't be! Must be the viewing angle or the engine nacelle must blocking my view of the gear."

Then I thought "He bloody-well hasn't got the gear down!!!!! OMG!!!"

The other pilot and I looked at each other in disbelief, and I tried to recall what the standard radio phraseology is for, "Do you REALLY want to do this?" when the recently trained tower guy pipes up, "[callsign] check wheels." and that's when the Airbus first started to pitch up for the go-around.

John Wayne plane indeed! :eek: :eek:

[Hugh Jarse]

So I take it the Airbus has no Mode 4 "Too Low, Gear" or "Too Low, Terrain" call out on the GPWS/EGPWS?

[404 Titan]

Hugh Jarse

The larger Airbus's do so I would imagine the baby bus does as well. It would be interesting to know the exact details of BIK_116.80 observation.
:)

[Dibble&Grub]

There are two types of pilots out there.

1. Those who have tried to do a wheels up approach ... and

2. Those who haven't yet ...


Be Alert - the world needs more Lerts

DG

[ferris]

Having not been in town for a while-
who operates A320s into Adelaide these days?

[ftrplt]

I was just waiting for the 'there are two types of pilots' quote; what a load of bollocks.

[4Greens]

How about a good show award for the tower? A case of beer for
instance.

[Master of the House]

Ferris - if you read the posts again the A320 story had nothing to do with Adelaide, it was the original story that was in Adelaide. Case of beer, i reckon so!

[BIK_116.80]

Hugh Jarse and 404 Titan,

I have no idea what was going on in the Airbus. I never got to talk to the driver.

[Mr. Hat]

Do tower always look for the wheels? Or only sometimes? I thought something like an airbus would have a horn that goes off at least... a 210 does!

Many a pilots nightmare - the scariest are airplanes that don't need the gear to slow you down.. very scary.

I wince when i hear these stories!:uhoh:

[ferris]

BIK 116.8
At what airport, and who was the operator?

[Freek Flyer]

Anyway back to the original post from the 'master'.

This same airline had a VERY near wheels up at YKSC within the last year, and now with a Multi Crew Operation yet another. It makes one wonder about the companies check and training dept,

not to mention SOP's!

[BIK_116.80]

A few years ago I was waiting for departure at the runway 07 holding point at Albury, NSW, whilst a locally-based RPT Chieftain made it's approach to land. I think the Chieftain might have been coming from Canberra.

I saw the Chieftain turning from left base onto final, and as it got a bit closer I got that "What is wrong with this picture?" feeling.

Yep - no wheels!

Fearing that a gutsed Chieftain on the one and only runway might delay my departure somewhat, and out of a sense of civic duty (actually, mainly the former ;) ) I was just about to press the transmit button to suggest that the Chieftain driver might like to consider his career options at this point (the Chieftain was at about 200 feet at this stage) when the Albury tower guy transmits, "[callsign] check wheels."

By this stage the Chieftain was at about 100 feet. You think he went round? Nah! That would have been for sissies - apparently!!! :eek:

Wheels fell out from everywhere, and the Chieftain continued to land!!!! :eek: :eek:

As I backtracked the runway for departure, and the Chieftain taxied towards the parking area, I heard the Chieftain driver say "Thanks for that - that could have been embarrassing!".

So come on - who was it? Fess up! I bet he reads these pages! :)

Hugh Jarse, 404 Titan and Mr. Hat,

I am not an Airbus advocate nor aficionado, but I am reliably informed that the “ECAM” system in the Airbus has an aural and visual gear warning function. I am told that some ECAM software versions has the gear warning armed below 2,000 feet radio altitude, whilst on other software versions it’s armed below 800 feet radio altitude.

Besides the ECAM system, the vast majority of Airbus A320s are also equipped with GPWS, which has a mode 4A aural warning : ”Too low – gear.”

Again, I dunno how the Airbus crew managed it. :confused:

Interestingly, the very first A320s to go into service with French airlines were NOT equipped with GPWS. In fact, the GPWS was :eek: REMOVED :eek: because the French authorities had effectively banned it. This strange, politically motivated decision was soon reversed after the Air Inter A320 disaster.

Oh and Ferris : None of your business.

[Captain Sand Dune]

.........yeah, but think of the vastly reduced landing distance required without the use of brakes!!:} :}

[404 Titan]

BIK_116.80

You are quite correct with your information regarding the Airbus ECAM system and GPWS or as we have with about half ours EGPWS. What I was alluding to was I would love to have been a fly on the wall to work out what they did wrong and or what was U/S in their tech log.
;)

[ferris]

Are you sure you are not telling porkies? Maybe your chieftan story is the correct version?
The go-around (you claim to have witnessed) of the A320 would have generated an Occurrence Report. Colleagues can find no such report. A current A320 driver is extremely sceptical, for various reasons I won't bore you with now. If you want to embellish stories, that's fine. Just as long as others know where you're coming from:ok:

[knackeredII]

BIK116.8,

You are half right with the 2000, 800' warning for the gear on the 320. If you go above 2000' then the trigger is at 2000' on descent but if you, say, do a circuit at 1500' then the trigger is 800', which is when the LDG memo will come up on the ECAM.

There is NO WAY you are going to get into an accidental gear up situation on final.

[BIK_116.80]

404 Titan,

Yeah - I would have really loved to have been able to have a chat with the chaps after they had done their laundry ;) to find out WTF went wrong.

The thought did cross my mind that the GPWS might have been U/S. It might have gone U/S on that flight, or it might have been MELed from a previous flight. I think most airline jets can go without GPWS for a couple of days under MEL authority.

But that leaves the ECAM thingie. I am told that the gear warning on the A320 is armed when the aircraft is below a certain radio altitude. It might be a factor that the terrain under the approach path is quite undulating or even hilly. The elevation of the terrain varies from well below the elevation of the touchdown zone to well above it.

But I am just guessing. Again, I’d love to know what happened – or what didn’t happen.

knackeredII,

Thanks for the info about A320 ECAM gear warnings.

“There is NO WAY you are going to get into an accidental gear up situation on final [in an A320].”

I know I wont – I don’t fly ’em! But at least one crew did.

I have spoken to a number of A320 drivers since that day to try to gain an understanding of what might have gone wrong. I can’t figure it out either. Any other Airbus A320 drivers got any ideas?

ferris,

“Are you sure you are not telling porkies?”

What a ridiculous question. Yeah mate – I just made it up to give you the ****s! :rolleyes:

“Maybe your chieftan (SIC) story is the correct version?”

Yep – it is ALSO a correct version.

“The go-around (you claim to have witnessed) of the A320 would have generated an Occurrence Report. Colleagues can find no such report.”

Would it? Your mates are not very good researchers then are they!

“A current A320 driver is extremely sceptical…”

Yep – I don’t understand how they managed it either.

“If you want to embellish stories, that's fine. Just as long as others know where you're coming from”

If you want to be a tosser all your life then that’s fine. We all know where you’re coming from. :rolleyes:

[Plazbot]

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plazbot/makeup.jpg

[ferris]

It's simple really. Just post some innocuous, checkable facts, such as airport and the A320 operator. I'll be happy to post a full apology, and everyone else will stop thinking you are a bull5hit artist. Otherwise, just keep digging that hole........

[Mr. Hat]

Plazbot your timing is Brilliant!! Noones answered my question as to wheather tower are looking for wheels down on every landing....... please help.

Also how did the Ansett a/c end up on its nose all those years back. I was verry young at the time and can't remember. Can anyone give me a quick summary.

[Dan Kelly]

Ferris,

Don't know Bik but always found his posts to be reasonable.

As an example of what seems impossible, I recall many years ago being a guest on the jump seat of a High Capacity RPT aircraft, watching in disbelief as the crew pulled the GPWS C/B to avoid warnings as they flew ever lower trying to get in, under a bank of fog! :eek: :uhoh: :ooh:

[BIK_116.80]

Plazbot,

Nice one!

ferris,

There are various reasons why I wont be specifying the location nor the operator.

Your naïve and mistaken suggestion that it simply didn’t happen is not one of those reasons.

Having read some of your previous posts on various threads it has long been apparent that our thoughts on the vast majority of subjects are so widely divergent that I now attach very little weight to any of your contributions.

If others have an alternative view then that is entirely their prerogative.

But I fail to understand why I would need or desire an apology from someone who’s opinion matters so little to me.

You have demonstrated a propensity for tenacious, dogged and confrontational debate and I have no doubt that you will be able to continue in that style here.

Unfortunately, I am unable to imagine how our further exchanges will make a positive contribution to this thread, and they certainly wont be enhancing my life, and so I don’t propose to respond to any further ridiculous suggestions that you might make.

It concerns me very little whether or not you think that I am a bull**** artist.

What does concern me is how an A320 could end up in the predicament that I witnessed.

So, any A320 drivers care to comment?

[ferris]

BIK116.8
You're right, I could go on and on- like why could there be any plausable reason for not specifying the operator and location?- but I think most people get where your coming from.;)
Your posts may seem reasonable, but they have a constant theme too; an antipathy towards the professional end of the aviation world. Whether it's envy, or rejection, I don't know. At least we know where you are coming from now.:hmm:

DAN
Have a good look at his post history, you'll see what I mean.


ps. How was Paris???:rolleyes:

[Capn Bloggs]

Ferris,

Hear hear. Bindook should stick to being a VOR! Come to think of it, let's replace him with a GPS waypoint. We could call it LOOSR!

:O

[Binoculars]

I too wonder why BIK refuses to give any details; seems a reasonable request to me. His blustering in the last post I don't think will fool many people.

I have taken a minor interest in his posts since his days as a chat participant when his nick could possibly have been construed as being a pilot of a Lear23. Ferris has it right in that his chief aim seems to be a condescending criticism of those of us who perform our jobs on the ground. Other posts reveal him to be an IFR twin commuter pilot with a propensity towards quoting from the books at length to reinforce his qualifications.

Each to his own, and we can all make up our own minds as to his credibility.

Mr. Hat,

I will answer your question brutally honestly. In an ideal world, the gear configuration of every landing aircraft would be visually checked by the tower controller. In 20 years of tower control I have personally saved two GA pilots from an expensive lesson and lots of paperwork.

I have also missed a float plane who went round from about 4ft after working out he had blue lights instead of green. And there have been many times when I have been so up to my arse in alligators that not only have I not checked the wheels, I have had to ring up the company and ask with a deal of embarrassment if their aircraft had landed.

And any tower controller who tells you any different is lying.

OK?

[mvand003]

I was the effo sitting beside BIK_116.80. It's all very tru.

The airport was Leeds Bradford (LBA/EGNM) in the good old UK. Runway 14 was in use. It was a Canadian registered A320 in Skyservice colors with small red Airtours titles or so.

Suppose BIK_116.80 was trying to avoid disclosing the location and operator because it might identify the pilots.

Never knew that with my kinda short crew cut the very short neck hairs still good spring up....

Can't rcal the exact date but must have been just after last sumer but might be wrong. :p

[AMRAAM]

Fellas

I have no particular love of BIKs particular style and have been on the end of a few of his blasts.

BUT

There is no reason to be blasting him over this.
How about YOU ALL have a look at your posts and HAVE a THINK about YOUR own styles (yes I include myself in that).
BIK has in the past been quite correct and very informative.
How about you all consider saying thanks for that as quickly as you attack.

That goes for you as well BIK, your attack on Ferris was unfortunate and tends to reduce your standing.



I have fortunatly never seen a W/UP landing and hope never to see or be involved with one. I like most here can tell stories about other people, and some very embarasing ones at that.

Bottom line is I will use the procedures that I have been taught to prevent such an occurence. Binos I hope that you are watching and continue to help those who have mislayed the checkist in a time that is busy for both sides.

PS I had a good friend suspended from ATC for alowing a light twin to land without the wheels. Is this normal ?

[lethalweapon]

Sounds like more porkies,

Suppose its a free world and you can have as many names as you want, just be careful, especially if you start to have conversations with yourself.

Who me?

Yes you.

[Northern Chique]

While its probably not a normal thing for me to jump in and defend someone. I know BIK quite well, and I think a few of you may be underestimating him a little both professionally and as a person...

As for his style, it take many types to make the work an interesting place, but it is possible to come up with constructive solutions or arguments without attacking a single person.

He needs not two personas to argue a point and he was trying to protect the crew of the A320 as Id imagine the occurance was rare for the type. I too would have been very puzzled as to why such an event occured.

Books and references to get the facts straight and often encourage research when someone is shown where to look. As for BIK Ive never really known him to not admit to a mistake when presented with facts.

I have been in a similar predicament with faulty equipment which if not for thorough checklists, may have ended in a gear up as all our aural equipment was disabled. (long story and has been addressed by the relevant authorities) I wish we could have an Intrument / Electrical qualified LAME enter the debate... I am pretty sure a query or two would be answered. Perhaps ask on the engineering Forum.

Last point .... Sure, a great debate has emotion and fervour, but me thinks the gear down subject was on the debating table, not the legitimacy of one poster...

[ferris]

Point taken. However, I (as I believe were others) was labouring under the misguided belief that this event was alleged to have happened in oz (this is the dunnunda forum?). Hence the scepticism. Something like that would not have gone unmentioned (not to mention the lack of A320s etc).

Still trying to verify the rest. Humble pie is in the oven though.

[Binoculars]

Me too. I don't think I did more than raise a quizzical eyebrow about the A320 but I retract it completely. If Northern chique says it's ok, that's fine by me.

My implication concerning his apparent belief in his superiority over ground-based personnel stands.

[steamchicken]

I recall considerable PPRuNe response to the EGNM incident at the time - I seem to remember that a consensus was that the A320 certainly does have a range of warnings of a lack of wheels - but, of course, just having a warning doesn't mean that human beings cannot ignore it, override it, disconnect or misinterpret it should our complex and unreliable psyches be that way inclined!

[mo_gravy]

now thats sorted out and were all friends again lets have a group hug and hold hands and sing "koom biy yah, my Lord"

funny how a chique turns up and says something suddenly all the blokes change sides...


gravy™

:zzz:

[mmmbop]

Again.......so the reason this was posted in the 'D & G Reporting Points' Forum when it happened in the UK is ...................................................?????!!!

[Plazbot]

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plazbot/letitdie.gif

[RENURPP]

wasn't there a 747 that landed with a wheel or two up in Sydeny not that long back.


Warnings?????


Maybe it does happen.

[Northern Chique]

Wheels up happen all over the world...

Granted yes, its an Aussie and NZ'der based forum but why do we have to learn from just our collective mistakes and failures? Can't we learn from someone elses difficult moments so it reduces the chances of it happening to an Aus operation?

*chuckles at mo_gravys comment*

well if a gal can do something constructive, well why not?! :p

[gaunty]

RENURRP


"Sorry Captain, what was that you said, I can't hear anything you say over the sound of that damn horn.":uhoh: :ouch: :p

[Northern Chique]

ferris, try these.... they may work..

this
inquiry (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89105)

and on the ATC Issues forum

this
thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=70509)

on Reporting Points.

[Lanastar]

I recall reading an incident report a few months ago about an Airbus [pretty sure it was A320] that after landing, ECAM displayed a "GEAR NOT DOWN" message.

From memory it was found to be a damaged sensor that had caused the spurious message.

[Number 8]

Ferris me thinks you owe bik an apology.

Instead of labouring under self imposed misguided beliefs, getting your colleague to search an irrelevant database, calling bik a liar and then posting a question in atc issues why didnt you just do a pprune search in the first place? The incident bik talks about has been on pprune since October. (thanks for the link nc)

The post about the Adelaide go around put the subject of gear up landings on the table. Gear ups can happen anywhere. Bik talked about two near gear ups what does it matter where they happened?

[ferris]

Do you?

Kept this identity for 2 years to post that?

Great.

Will have the answer shortly.

[18-Wheeler]

I have absolutely no problem with BIK and what he says.
I've known him for over ten years now and he's a dead straight-up sort of guy.
Airbus' do all sorts of wierd things and the promotors of them cover it up as best they can.
See here - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=70509&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I'm sticking with Boeing, thanks.

[boocs]

Would anyone care to comment on an incident last week, perhaps on monday, involving a B717 stick shaker after take-off because flap was selected instead of gear??

[Torres]

Hmmm. No post from Creampuff??? Would have thought with his knowledge of wheels up landings he may have offered words of wisdom on this thread! :}

[Hugh Jarse]

Wee all know Beechcraft went against convention back in the good old days, eh Torres;) :ok: :E

[ferris]

Well, I'm sure most people don't care, but after much digging have finally got some answers. It took a while, however.....

I'm glad that But I fail to understand why I would need or desire an apology from someone who’s opinion matters so little to me. that way this apology will fall on deaf ears.

I apologise unreservedly to BIK116.8 for implying that he may have been untruthful in alleging he thought he saw an A320 go around wheels up. This was partly fuelled by my mistaken belief that he was saying he saw this in oz (this being the D&G forum etc.). He then, despite being asked, refused to divulge the location (without any plausable explanation), and I mistakenly checked sources around oz to find out the facts surrounding the incident. Having been unable to find even a hint of it, (wasting peoples time), I insinuated he was making it up.

It now appears that he did not make it up, he just failed to check any further on what he thought he saw. What a shame. Because if he had, like I did, he would have worked out that things were not as advertised. I guess it's just easier to hang 5hit on the other crew, right BIK116.8? Indicitive really, of the criticism I (and others) had levelled at him.

You have demonstrated a propensity for tenacious, dogged and confrontational debate and I have no doubt that you will be able to continue in that style here. You are dead right there, buddy.

The crew in the aircraft following postulated that the A320 had already initiated a go around (due to the unacceptable cross-wind), but before reporting doing so to the tower, the tower ordered the (already going around) A320 to go around.
(See UK CAA Occurrence List, October 2002 and the thread on pprune). That didn't even enter your head, did it? Your version is a much better story.

So now, Mr McNeil, we can let this thread die. Thanks to all those that helped (you know who you are), and to all those who didn't.... I'm beyond expecting much else.

[18-Wheeler]

What a heart-felt apology.

http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/div_bilder/bluetooth.jpg

[mvand003]

does it seems like nearly every item goes tits up (personality clash) after a few posts... anyway thishowitshappened:

A320 reports established on the ILS to tower. Tower clears A320 to land.

(about 60 seconds latter)

A320 observed at about 500 feet above runway elevation. A320 gear up and descending.

(about 25 seconds latter)

A320 at about 200 feet above runway elevation. A320 gear up and descending. Tower says Kestrel 374 check wheels.
(the tower guy never said go around)

(about 5 seconds latter)

A320 nose starts to pitch up.

(about 5 seconds latter)

A320 nose pitched up more steeply. A320 tail goes within about 100 feet of the runway (A320 tail was about one third the length of the fuselage above the runway). A320 climbing.

(about 8 minutes latter)

A320 lands normally on the same runway. Does that sound like a normal go around to you? I dont see anywhere where BIK has put **** on the A320 crew. He did a lot of research after this to find out how it could happen.