SIA crew to take unpaid leave (merged)

[Lee]

In The Straits Times edition of 1 May 2003, Home Section, page H1, in the sub-heading, "Carrier asks its cabin crew to take 7 days every 2 months to cut costs"

"The carrier also said that discussions about a similar scheme for pilots will be held with the pilot's union, the Air Line Pilots Association Singapore."

[422]

Well looks like finally SQ management has found reason to

execute it's long time wish list of 25% pay cut..

Of couse it will not sound that was but in a form known as

NPL..

More cheap cheap days ahead... where in the world can u

get labour this cheap... but here..

My thoughts go to the expats , cause they face uncertain times

[twitchy]

:{ :{
I think the pilots' union here is dominated by the locals and poor expat crew have no say. I feel union members are going to say no to the CNPL. They would be more than willing to get the Overseas based and few expat crew thrown out. The usual way of thinking for the locals

[wilco77]

twitchy yes the expats have no say in the union, but thats the way it should be. Expats dont deserve a say in any union in any country they are in, 'REMEMBER THEY ARE EXPATS'. Expats are in a company only for the money and lifestyle. It is the absolute wright of the local to deny the expat a wright in any say in the union.
Remember its the local's country and national company the expat is working in.
Otherwise if expats got they wanted the company would turn into what Cathay is. 'FULL OF DIRTY EXPATS AND WHITE BOYS ONLY'

[twitchy]

Quote from WILCO77

Expats are in a company only for the money and lifestyle. It is the absolute wright of the local to deny the expat a wright in any say in the union.
Remember its the local's country and national company the expat is working in.
Otherwise if expats got they wanted the company would turn into what Cathay is. 'FULL OF DIRTY EXPATS AND WHITE BOYS ONLY'

Unquote

wilco77 you have the right to say what you feel but it will be better if you try and learn how to write.......i am amazed that a person who can't differentiate between and doesn't know the meaning of "right" and "Write" is flying for SIA.

I don't think its correct on my part to argue with you about anything in this forum, unless i want to defeat the very purpose of this forum. "Will it be right on my part to say that we the people of Chinese origin have no place out side china" Do you understand if world is full of people like you......how the scene is gonna be.........................................................d isaster my friend.

[blaireau]

I think a "wright" is an artisan as in wheelwright, shipwright and wainwright.

[Lithgow]

Since there seems to be so much difficulty with these words,

Wilco77:
1000 lines of:
wright is not the same as right
Reference: "It is the absolute wright of the local to deny the expat a wright in any say in the union."

Twitchy:
1000 lines of:
write is not the same as wright
Reference: "wilco77 you have the right to say what you feel but it will be better if you try and learn how to write.......i am amazed that a person who can't differentiate between and doesn't know the meaning of "right" and "Write" is flying for SIA."

Both of you stand in the corner.

BTW, Might is Right.
But's that's another story.

[scanscanscan]

Some of us are not amazed.
Copilots read and flight engineers write... to be a Captain you only have to know a guy that can read and another that can write.:)

[luna landing]

Scan - -

Even knowing a guy who can read and another who can write - would be even better!!

[Senso]

Wilco77 ~ I am amazed you think that we should have no rights. We have all the rights accorded to us with the exception of voting. How about us Northerners who are on local terms. The union exists to serve our interests collectively.

This mentality is all Singaporean and all very convenient when its all hunky dory. When it comes to the crunch (sic 006 ~ pardon the pun), lots were quick to point out that it was my fellow countryman in command.

This airline is staffed by more foreign talent than you know, but then what would you know about it, unless you were part of it right?

Not all expats are the white boys... I totally agree with something I read that the expats serve as a good form of check and balance. Look at the appauling state of Dynasty...

"They are very quick when they want you and equally quick to turn their back on you when they are done with you". That is the Gomen.

Try using your spell check or stick to www.talkingcock.com

Bon nuit!

Captain LEE Sir,

We should revive our cost saving suggestion... BTW you did not tell us what she said to you when she wanted you to warm her sheets.

I'll gladly give up my Raffles seat for choice pickings hows that? Even better if we could save the company more money with the "Menage a trois" scheme and help push up the birth rate, good for the company and the economy. The gomen will give you the "Pingkat AMN".

Senso

---------------------
Airbus - "Where is the slot for the token?"

[aviator_38]

Oh dear me....another row on hand ? Is relationship that strained in one of the world's most profitable airlines ?


Cheers

see:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/storyprintfriendly/0,1887,190381,00.html?

MAY 22, 2003

No-pay leave row with pilots: SIA set for arbitration
By Helmi Yusof

SINGAPORE Airlines (SIA) is prepared to go to arbitration if it cannot agree with its pilots on wage-cost reductions.

SIA's chief executive, Dr Cheong Choong Kong, said yesterday: 'We don't have the luxury of time. And if we can't reach agreement within one or two meetings, we will have to take the matter to arbitration.'

The pilots, who are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association-Singapore (Alpa-S), are equally adamant.

They refused to budge on their resolution on Tuesday calling on SIA to first axe about 120 pilots not directly employed by the airline but by a subsidiary based in Mauritius, before calling for sacrifices by Alpa-S members.

On May 2, to cut costs, SIA's management asked pilots to take 10 to 12 days of no-pay leave every two months, slightly more than what the cabin crew had been told to take.

Yesterday, at a press conference on its financial performance, Dr Cheong said pay cuts and layoffs were possible. The airline has had to cut a third of its flight capacity because of economic conditions.

He praised cabin crew for agreeing to unpaid leave and noted that the pilots had not. The 6,600-plus flight attendants are to go on seven days' unpaid leave every two months until next March.

When the company is 'bleeding from day to day', Dr Cheong said, he was disappointed that the pilots were trying to take advantage of the situation.

According to him, the pilots were trying to get SIA to 'change a very basic principle which the company has always adhered to... that all our employees all over the world... have equal rights'.

He insisted the overseas-based pilots were no different from other SIA employees. 'They are seconded pilots in a very technical sense, because they are employed by a 100-per-cent-owned subsidiary of ours.

'They will have to take their share of pain also, but no more and no less than any other pilot,' he promised.

Hours after the SIA press conference, Alpa-S president Dilip Padbidri, vice-president Frank John and treasurer P. James turned up unexpectedly at News Centre, Singapore Press Holdings' headquarters, to challenge that notion of pilot equality.

Overseas-based pilots, they said, have always been given preferential treatment over Singapore-based flight crew.

Said Capt Padbidri: 'They earn between 15 and 20 per cent more than Singapore pilots, have a fixed roster planned six months in advance for them, and do not have to do stand-by duty.'

Singapore-based pilots are often on standby and, when overseas-based pilots call in sick, 'we have to cover for them', said Capt James.

The Alpa-S leaders said that in the past three months, overseas-based pilots have continued to clock 80 hours a month while Singapore pilots have seen their flying hours halved or worse.

Flying allowances can make up as much as 25 per cent of a pilot's pay.

Alpa-S vice-president Frank John said the union and its members were indeed willing to accept unpaid leave and wage cuts - 'but only after the issue of overseas-based pilots is addressed'.

[G.Khan]

Could this be the same Dr. Cheong that, having finally agreed a bonus formula with the pilots, on publishing of the company figures immedialtely renaged on it and caused a prelonged delay and pay-out? Similar to the protracted negotiations for the CA that eventually involved thirty months back pay which he insisted be paid in two increments without interest? And as for saying that overseas staff, (excluding pilots), get treated the same, would he care to attend a meeting of the ground staff in, say, AMS, LHR, FRA and America and see if they agree with him?

Dr. Cheong is making very cheap mileage out of the ALPA(S) refusal to lie down and be stuffed, here on PPRuNe and in the Straits Times it is relatively harmless but he may wish to change his tune fairly quickly before his utterings get out in to the wider audience where his gross miss management and his malign hatred of tech crew is exposed.

All power to your elbow ALPA(S), Dr Cheong is playing with words and emotions in an effort to cover up his own shortcomings, blaming the pilots is just about as low as one can go. Dr Cheong, from his statements, comes across as a pathetic little man who seems to have run out of basic good manners and basic good reason who has never taken the employees seriously, only his beloved shareholders.

[thegypsy]

G.Khan You hit the nail right on the head again!!! You are becoming my hero.!!

Bonus for Year is 3.23 months basic salary. But paycuts and retrenchment coming fast.

The CEO has never acknowledged his bungling failure over the $2Billion he lost in AirNZ/Ansett and Virgin.

He applauds the cabin crew for ageeing to take unpaid leave but they ALL have no say in matters as ALL decisions are taken by the officials on the council and never put to the Vote. That is democracy the Singapore way.

The pilots going to Arbitration over the not sacking the 'outsiders' ie those employed by SIA Mauritius is just a way of the company getting their way through the Government controlled civil servants. Arbitration = Company getting their way with the force of the Law behind it!!!

Obviously with the downturn in business jobs have got to go but for SIA to suggest{ when it now suits them over the SIA Mauritius business} that all employees are equal beggars belief.

[Touch'n'oops]

Wilco77

Wash your dirty mouth out with soap!

I hope you don´t have a pilot licence or just taking the piss!!

I reckon I have a couple of legs to stand in this debate. Asia has been my home for the whole of my life, and quite frankly I am not leaving.

First problem is I cannot get a national citizenship of a country like HKG or SIN. The support from the local governments is to a lesser extent.
Lets say I become unemployed as an expat. I lose my visa therefore I have to leave the country I have this made country my home. This becomes even more difficult if I had a family.

If you want to go back even further then nearly the whole population of Singapore should return back to the "Homeland"! Just incase you can´t work that out, it is China...

I assume you are of dark origin... No actualy lets get rid of most Americans, lets send all African, European, Chineese...etc back to where they come from!!!

The main point I am trying to stress, is that expat privages are there to compensate for the lower lifestyle security.
Expats bring a lot of experience to the airline.

Don´t mind the spelling I´m dyslexstickjfh

[Dixi Normus]

To "Oops":

If you lived and worked in HKG for more than 7 years you can apply for permanent residency. Most expats don't because they might lose their expat perks.

[twitchy]

Dear Friends

People like WILCO77 are responsible to scr*w up the fate of SIA and the ALPAS.

I hope when will these types of "frogs in the well" will grow up. I always wonder that these people are flying around the whole world but still remains so narrow minded. Must be having a very good resistance to learning and improving "lah"

[Touch'n'oops]

Dixi Normus

Do you think I haven't tried? I only lived in Hong Kong for 14 years from the age of 10 days old!!!! But I have had my requests denied. I don't have a criminal record of any sort. They just said no and gave no reason!:*

I don't mind losing the expat perks!

I just want to work for the airline I have grown up around and live where I feel home is...

[422]

What is wrong , with the expats being asked to leave?

After all the years , after independence... still " expat's being

given the priority?

Fellas.... lucky not many Expat asian in EUROPE. yet.

Maybe then the feeling is mutual... live and let live guys

No one want to lose their jobs .... but losing jobs to retain

OBS is the wrong reason here.

If evey SQ pilot incl, OBS.... take 30% wage cut.. maybe there

is room to chat.

Pls do not mention contract... SQ never did honour contracts..



:cool:

[422]

Better go to court than agreeing to something that everyone

will regret by christmas.

:(

Management has and will consider all "desperate" measures

Regardless of NPL of Wage cut agreement. So what is there to

Chat about...

Wrong island dudes...

[Touch'n'oops]

A point of view I would like to stress is the problem a lot of asian carriers have.

This problem has been a large cause of a/c accidents for these carriers.
It is the fact that many asian pilots are not willing to loose face in front of their crew! The carriers have been trying desperately to quash the problem. But the fact is it still remains.
Look at such accidents as SQ in Taiwan and the infamous video of the KAL approach to Kia Tak that should have been aborted!!

Having expats or pilots of european origin can help. While expats work with asian counterparts in the flight deck, will exhibit the ability to quicky and without delay admit that a mistake has been made on his/hers part.
It is all about speading different qualities through out the carrier. A good pilot should never stop learning from others. Even if those others are less senior.

442
What do you mean expats get priority? What choice! over at the salad bar?

[satumare]

TOUCH+OOPS


So u are from the "Dark side of the moon" maybe u have a
"Momentary Lapse of Reason" too.

[John Barnes]

422 you are absolutely right in your statement that when it comes to loosing jobs the expats should go first. If I would be a German national flying for the German National Airline, and job cuts had to be made the expats, or foreigners, whatever you call them , should go first. There is however a very small difference between the retrenching procedure in a real civilised country and let's say a little red dot in Asia. Being an expat in Germany and paying taxes in Germany ( like the expats pay tax in the little red spot) your income will be partly covered by a social insurance system and you will be paid unemployment bennefits when you find yourself without a job. You won't find yourself standing in the street with housing, scholing and last but not least a bonding to be paid. AND THAT MY DEAR 422 IS ONE HACK OF A DIFFERENCE!!!!!

[boofta]

The expats are around because of insurance, the local record does not allow a reasonable premium level. Just because they
annoy you does'nt mean you can avoid having expat crew.
Stop crashing aircraft, then your premiums will drop and the
expats can leave.

[wotwazat]

Arguments about who should go first are not really relevant in this situation. The Company does not want to loose any of it's valuable resources because it will need them when the recovery comes.

What is sad is that SIA appear to believe that they can browbeat well qualified professionals into accepting massive cuts in income and major disruption to family life in order to reduce the chances of a face loosing first ever loss.

A mature business approach may accept that if you want to run with the big boys and operate high tech complex equipment with high lead in times for training then you must be prepared to accept occasional periods of high losses as well as the boom times. Up till now SIA has prospered without fail. Why do the Lions turn into Chickens when things get difficult.

Take a longer term view over several years. Stop looking to make your staff help reduce the losses in the short term with no promise or intention to make it up to them later.

Finally, if you are seeking to make savings be honest about the figures involved. Don't flood the media with percentages that bear no relation to the actual effect on take home pay.

The "expat pilot problem" is likely to solve itself in the longer run as any reputation SIA may have had as an employer is unlikely to survive this demonstration of corporate brutality. Most expats (and the locals who are able to) will work elsewhere as soon as they possibly can.

[John Barnes]

Watzowat again right on the head and very well written!! I wish you could take a seat at the negotiating table. Boofta it is obvious from your writing that you know absolutely nothing about the aviation insurance bussiness. It normally helps to be a little informed before you utter total nonsense!!

[G.Khan]

Great stuff and spot on too.

watwazat, any chance your letter could ever be printed in the Straits Times?!

Boofta As John Barnes has said, you obviously know nothing about aviation insurance. World wide SIA enjoy some of the lowest rates going, SQ6 was tragic but would not have affected the premium one tiny bit, there was already far to much premium 'in the pot'. Rest assured the SIA insurance policy contains no warranties of any sort that make any stipulation about expat. pilots.

[Touch'n'oops]

satumare

I would appreciate a more constructive approach to your reasoning for not agreeing with me!

After all this is a debate, not an investigation into where I really come from!!!!!:rolleyes:

[wotwazat]

I'm no expert on the freedom of the press or otherwise in Singapore but I have yet to see any evidence of truly balanced reporting with respect to this issue. It would be easy to conclude that the pilot's union have failed to present their case well but we must remember that whenever a statement is made to the media the "sound bite" that most suites the powers that be is the one that will be reported.
Thus the pilots are portrayed as a bunch of greedy xenophobes opposing any efforts to address the issue when they are, in fact, responsible individuals whose incomes are already badly hit by the reduction in flying and resent SIA taking the opportunity to further erode their pay and conditions using the (hopefully) temporary SARS situation as an excuse.

[stable approach]

wotwazat,
Have enjoyed your well written posts, but have to disagree with the last. Prior to this week, absolutely correct about the one-sided reporting, but to give credit where it's due, since Monday I have noticed a considerable shift in balance. There have been several well balanced articles, giving quite a fair summation of the pilots' side of the argument. It would be interesting to know how much direction is given to the reporters from the top, and whether some have actually rebelled.

[Thermal Image]

wotwazat:

You said:
>>"The "expat pilot problem" is likely to solve itself in the longer run as any reputation SIA may have had as an employer is unlikely to survive this demonstration of corporate brutality. Most expats (and the locals who are able to) will work elsewhere as soon as they possibly can.

If you mean that expats will never want to work for SIA from now on, I disagree.

I think that as awful as SIA may be as an employer, there will always be expats wanting to join them. This is clearly proven in the increase in the number of pilots joining SIA (Mauritius), IN SPITE OF the Internet being a lasting and convenient source of information about how bad (factual, perceived or otherwise) it is to work for SIA, a resource not available say 10 years ago.

On the supply side of things, since SIA is not the absolute worst employer around (and even if so you need only look at the perceived absolute worst airlines and you will still find expats working there), it will therefore still have expats wanting to work for it.

On the demand side of the equation, since SIA WILL NEVER BE ABLE to nurture commanders from Singapore and Malaysia fast enough to fill requirements, they will ALWAYS be short of captains, which will be partly solved by recruiting from the open market.

To hope that SIA from now on will never find expats working for it is just wishful thinking.

Also, you said:
>>I'm no expert on the freedom of the press or otherwise in Singapore but I have yet to see any evidence of truly balanced reporting with respect to this issue. It would be easy to conclude that the pilot's union have failed to present their case well but we must remember that whenever a statement is made to the media the "sound bite" that most suites the powers that be is the one that will be reported.
>>Thus the pilots are portrayed as a bunch of greedy xenophobes opposing any efforts to address the issue when they are, in fact, responsible individuals whose incomes are already badly hit by the reduction in flying and resent SIA taking the opportunity to further erode their pay and conditions using the (hopefully) temporary SARS situation as an excuse.

If you have not seen the ALPA-S resolution (passed on 20 May at an Extraordinary General Meeting) at the centre of all this noise, here it is:

Resolution:

- Be it resolved that the Airline Pilots Association-Singapore, not accept any Compulsory No Pay Leave (CNPL) or other wage-reduction measures until Management has addressed the issue of surplus pilots by de-seconding pilots who are not directly employed by the Company. (This refers to Overseas-Based pilots who are seconded to, and not employed directly by, SIA).

The ordinary and natural meaning of these words are:
ALPA-S will not accept any wage-reduction proposals from Management until the overseas-based pilots stop working for SIA.

It's pathetic that ALPA-S uses fancy language like "de-seconding" to mask their intention to have SIA sack the expats. Do they truly believe that SIA will keep a bunch of "de-seconded" pilots on their payroll?

Is this not greedy xenophobic behaviour?

The ALPA-S President himself earns more than a good number of such expats. What moral authority does he have to champion this cause? It is understandable if ALL the expats earn more than EVERY local, then there is logic in asking for the expats to be retrenched first. But here the issue is clouded because not all the expats earn more than every local. More likely than not ALPA-S wants them sacked because they are not allowed to join ALPA-S, therefore ALPA-S feels that it's powerbase is reduced because it cannot influence them.

[burnoff]

Thermal,

You sound like a broken record, kept spinning on the same track.

What is wrong with a national airline firing its non-national first ? This happens everywhere in the world.

If the decision is to fire all SIN based personnel earning more than OBS pilots before ANY OBS pilots is let go, what message would this send to the rest of its workforce ?
Not to mention what impact would have on the operations should SIA lose its most experienced pilots, with intimate knowledge of the policies and history.

SIA is always short on captains thanks to a very myopic policy by the previous DFO who runs the department on a deficit, leaving the current team, amongst others with a backlog annual leave of over 15,000 days.

The OBS pilots are roped in to cover the cracks of the mistakes of the previous DFO in his man power planning, now that there is surplus of man power, there is no need for OBS crews.

By the way, me think you are a OBS pilot in the SIA ranks.
:}

[wotwazat]

Stable Approach

Thanks for the kind words.

If the reporting has become more even handed then I am very pleased to hear it and I withdraw my implied criticism. I also congratulate those in the media who are trying to redress the balance. If both sides of the argument are fairly presented then there may be some public sympathy for a group that are prepared to resist this blatantly unfair treatment. There is some way to go. The cynic in me says that even SIA may have realised that they have gone over the top and are doing little for their public image. There is more to being "Singapore's Flag Ship Company" than just making money!

[G.Khan]

Just off the 'phone to friends still working in Singapore and I would say your reasons for ALPA(S) wanting rid of the OSB pilots are well wide of the mark. It is a lot more to do with the almost total lack of quality of roster that has developed as the numbers in the OSB increased so that even in the good times the Singapore based pilots are left with a roster that has to be written around the OSB pilots roster, less monthly flying, (flying = money), more standby and therefore more roster instability and very little chance of being rostered a London flight, (and certainly not 'in-command' into London that would give a decent day off).

I can still remember the relatively happy days before any OSBs were opend and then it was possible to get a fair months flying and a good and varied roster. Before I left, when the base in London was still relatively small, the decline had started and from what I hear and see now the quality of life has deteriorated by a whole lot more.

[Thermal Image]

Burnoff,

>>You sound like a broken record, kept spinning on the same track.
Then don't read my posts. Are you not capable of exercising your own will?

>>What is wrong with a national airline firing its non-national first ? This happens everywhere in the world.
I have not said that it was wrong for a national airline to fire non-nationals first. Show me where I said so, please.

In case you didn't notice, who wants whom fired first? It is very clear that ALPA-S wants the non-nationals fired first. It is also very clear that SIA does not want the non-nationals fired first. Can you distinguish between ALPA-S and SIA?

>>If the decision is to fire all SIN based personnel earning more than OBS pilots before ANY OBS pilots is let go, what message would this send to the rest of its workforce ?
Again, did I suggest that SIA should "fire all SIN based personnel earning more than OBS pilots before ANY OBS pilots is let go"? This is what I suggested (scroll to the bottom of the post):
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=874367#post874367
"The logical and pragmatic solution is to categorise and then rank all pilots by appointment and then pay, then see who are the expensive ones nearing retirement and then let them go. They have already demonstrated this with the axing of some 310 and 340 pilots, who were "too old to be retrained for another fleet".

You appear not to be able to grasp my logic, twice.

In your post of http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=278990#post278990
You said: As per normal, when it comes to deduction, the management is "quick-draw-McGraw".

So who is quick-draw-McGraw now?

>>Not to mention what impact would have on the operations should SIA lose its most experienced pilots, with intimate knowledge of the policies and history.
Knowledge without application is useless. In any case, "knowledge" can be found in hard copy in the FAM etc. By your argument such "most experienced" pilots are so valuable to operations that ideally they should never retire. Also, when they do, the loss of these "most experienced pilots", ought to have a huge "impact" on operations. But it doesn't. People retire; the airline chugs on. Operationally, no big deal.

>>SIA is always short on captains thanks to a very myopic policy by the previous DFO who runs the department on a deficit, leaving the current team, amongst others with a backlog annual leave of over 15,000 days.
Too bad. We just have to deal with it. It remains a fact that we are short. This only worsens what I said, that we are unable to nurture enough commanders from local stock.

>>The OBS pilots are roped in to cover the cracks of the mistakes of the previous DFO in his man power planning, now that there is surplus of man power, there is no need for OBS crews.
Sorry lah, SIA doesn't think so. Their position is NOT:
a. OBS = just to cover shortage, therefore
b. if no shortage = then no OBS.

In case you don't understand, they are there for strategic reasons as well as cost reasons.

>>By the way, me think you are a OBS pilot in the SIA ranks.
Haha. Can I not show independant thinking even if it means I will suffer what I propose? Quite defensive of you to conclude that since I can think logically or since I can think like an OBS therefore I must one? Do you just think what ALPA-S tells you to think?

G Khan,

OK, your friend's reasons and my reasons differ. However shall we agree that regardless of motivation, it remains that ALPA-S wants OBS pilots sacked first before all else?

In the Tues 27 May edition of the Straits Times: http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest/story/0,4390,191440-1054072740,00.html?

Quote:
Capt John said another round of talks was tentatively scheduled for next Tuesday.
He said the pilots reiterated their position that management should first axe foreign-based pilots employed by a 100 per cent SIA-owned company called SIA Mauritius before they agree to discuss wage cuts.
Unquote

Separately, more writing on the wall along the line of I Told You So (see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=875385#post875385

In the Thu 29 May edition of The Business Times 29 May: http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/sub/premiumstory/0,4574,82820,00.html?
Quote
SINGAPORE Airlines (SIA) employees must prepare for painful measures as their company undergoes restructuring to correct a wage system that 'got out of line', National Trades Union Congress chief Lim Boon Heng said yesterday as wage negotiations remain inconclusive between the airline and its pilots.
Unquote

[wotwazat]

Normally when a good company is seeking some concessions from it's staff to help through difficult times it tries to offer something in return for that help and sacrifice.
Apart from keeping a job (at much lower salary) did I miss the offers from SIA.
Has there been any mention of the difficulties families might face, reassurances as to a return to normal or concern for the morale and well being of staff under stress? (Even families have a business plan and most don't have the proceeds of years of high income to fall back on as SIA do.)

I must have missed it.

[422]

OBS will linger as long as there is LOCALS.

WIshlist of the Co is to fully revisit the years of

70% white..

wait and see.

SQ never liked yellow skin who talked too much... not in line
with national aspirations.



:ok:

[John Barnes]

422 why don't we try to keep this link as good as it has been, instead of transforming it into a stupid racial slur site. These discussions here help us a lot because I know for a fact that some of the Singaporian reporters get their more balanced information from this site and the likes of Wotwazat. His write ups help the Singaporian pilots more than all the ALPAS attemps to get their story accros. One of the leading Bussiness Times reporters told me that he spent at least an hour a day on PPRUNE to get his "balanced information". This is a PR war and let's use all the possible angles, don't spoil it with ranting!

[greybeard]

Well maybe the press can pick up on this.

The last 7 Expat Captains on the A-310 have been given the choice of 6 months NPL or 90 days notice.

So, departures so far, as best I can tell including the last 7 are

12 A-310 Captains
1 A-310 F/O
8 A-320 Captains
3 A-340 Captains

All Capts were on Expat terms.

The last A-310 Flight is scheduled to be SQ64/65 Sat 31st May, followed by a "GREAT PARTY" to finish off the Fleet.

TO DEFRAY COSTS, CONTRIBUTIONS REQUESTED!!!!!

YES

TO DEFRAY COSTS, CONTRIBUTIONS REQUESTED!!!!!

what can one say, what can one really say.

C YA

:ok:

[Thermal Image]

I don't think the press has gone soft or done some "balanced reporting" on the pilots / the union at all.

It's all part of the good-cop-bad-cop routine.

First round - bash them good to show them what's in store.

Second round - stroke them a bit to show them what's in store.

[John Barnes]

I have to appologize , the " try to some more balanced reporting" has gone out of the window. 1) ALPAS negotiater is changed in the middle of the battle. 2) I read a full page article in the Straight Times which stated that my income is above that of a Cathay Pilot who earns $ 800.000 a year. I have never read such a nonsense on one page. My computer skills are too limited to put the link here but I am sure there is some clever cookie around who can do this. Sad day for the pilot community in Singapore. First saving action: NEVER BUY THE ST AGAIN.

[Snowballs]

SIA pilots get more than CX pilots ! according to the Straits Times reporter. He has an obvious poor handle on maths !


INSIGHT: An icon in the storm
SIA has been losing more than $6 million a day and says it not only has to cut wages but also reform its wage structure to beat the intense competition it was already facing even before the Sars scare. REBECCA LEE of the Political Desk takes a look at the global airline industry and considers SIA's case.

FASTEN your seat belts for a bumpy ride.

This has been a constant refrain in the global airline industry over the last three years with no respite from turbulent weather.


LUFTHANSA ADAPTS: A stewardess (right) from the German carrier takes health checks in her stride, together with the airline's new flexible work arrangement to help cut costs. -- AFP
Even before Sept 11, passenger numbers were falling with the global economic slowdown. Then after the terror attacks, there was the Bali bomb blast, the war in Iraq and now the outbreak of Sars. Add to that rising competition from low-cost carriers, which offer rock-bottom prices by cutting back on the frills.

Battered by Sept 11, airlines in North America and Europe are trying hard to ratchet down costs to survive.

Already, the industry worldwide has shed some 100,000 jobs and the International Air Transport Association (Iata) estimates that the global aviation industry has lost another US$10 billion (S$17.2 billion) this year alone, on top of losing US$31 billion over the past two years.

Asian carriers had emerged relatively unscathed from Sept 11. But now they have their own Sept 11 - the Sars outbreak.

SIA HAMMERED

SO what do the slashing of costs globally, and now Sars, mean for national icon Singapore Airlines, Asia's most profitable airline?

For one, it is clear that the effects have been of a severity never before seen in its history.

Sars-hit Asia has seen a 44.8-per-cent drop in air passenger traffic last month, against a global backdrop of an 18.5-per-cent slump.

SIA has cut its capacity by a-third as passenger traffic plunged 62.8 per cent in the second week this month from the start of the year.

Last month alone, the airline lost $204 million, or $6.8 million a day. Early indications are that the decline in passenger traffic has not abated. Next month, it expects to make its first quarterly loss.

Industry observers are confident that traffic will rebound from these highly depressed levels as Sars comes under control. But when and by how much is anyone's guess.

The prediction by SIA's recently retired chief executive officer Cheong Choong Kong is that full recovery may take up to two years.

The reason for this uncertainty is the psychological change in travel patterns in Asia, similar to that seen post-Sept 11, said investment bank JP Morgan's Hongkong-based regional airline analyst, Mr Peter Negline.

'Post-Sept 11, the revenue dynamic changed dramatically,' the analyst, who has been tracking the industry for a decade, told Insight.

In the US, and to some extent in Europe, a portion of discretionary travel - which comes from people's urge to take off on a whim to far-flung places - disappeared permanently.

'There is a deterioration in the appeal of air travel...in the US, the security and inconvenience mean it is no longer a relaxing experience.

'Post-Sars, I think we will go through a similar psychological change in travel patterns here in Asia,' he said.

POST-SARS EFFECT

WHILE airlines cannot control when passenger traffic will return, they can coax people to take to the skies again by working with governments and tourism bodies.

And so in Singapore and Hong Kong, thermal scanners have been installed at airports to ensure passengers are fever-free before they can board an aircraft. The machines serve another purpose: assuage fears that the disease may be contracted in a plane.

The Pacific Asia Travel Association (Pata) and Iata are also banding together to work on a marketing campaign to rebuild passenger confidence.

The efficacy of these enticements remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, since airlines cannot dictate their revenue, all they can do is to control costs.

'While you are waiting around for your revenue to recover, you must be as pro-active on your cost base as you can,' said Mr Negline.

SIA got its entire cabin crew to take seven days of no-pay leave every two months starting this month to save $14 million. Its 240 members of management will take pay cuts of between 22.5 per cent and 27.5 per cent from next month, saving the airline another $12 million.

However, these cuts amount to a mere 'drop in the ocean', said UOB-Kay Hian associate research director Peggy Mak. The airline's wage bill - its second largest cost component after fuel - for the year ended March this year came up to $1.4 billion, increasing by a quarter from the previous year. The reason is mainly the 3.23 months of profit-sharing bonus given to staff.

SIA's incoming chief executive, Mr Chew Choon Seng, has said the airline intends to slash staff-related costs by more than $200 million or some 14 per cent.

A key to that is to shrink the wage bill of the pilots, who make up 12 per cent of the airline's total staff, but account for almost a third of the total wage bill. SIA wants wage cuts of up to 22.5 per cent for the pilots plus compulsory no-pay leave.

Negotiations, however, with the pilots' union - the Air Line Pilots Association Singapore (Alpa-S) - have reached a stalemate. The two sides are squabbling over the issue of SIA's 120 overseas-based pilots.

Alpa-S, which represents about 1,600 of SIA's 1,800 pilots, wants the airline to axe these pilots first before they will take a wage cut. They also argue that those based overseas have all along been given preferential treatment.

SIA, however, insists that these pilots, based in London, Los Angeles, Perth and Sydney, are all its employees even though they are technically employed by its wholly-owned subsidiary SIA Mauritius.

As a global company, it has to treat its employees equally. Otherwise the carrier, which derives 80 per cent of its income from outside Singapore, may find itself shunned by travellers unhappy with its discriminatory labour practices, it explained.

SIA's pilots are in the 75th percentile, meaning that they are among the most-highly paid in the industry with an SIA captain typically earning between $10,000 and $19,500 a month. This puts them ahead of Cathay Pacific's pilots who are said to be near the top of the scale, earning on the average $800,000 a year.

SIA is also proposing a 15-per-cent across-the-board wage cut for the rest of its 14,600 staff, but unions first want a reassurance that the cuts will be restored. Negotiations are still ongoing.

While the cuts are for immediate relief, it is clear also that they tie with the airline's moves to overhaul its seniority-based wage system and move towards a more performance-linked pay structure, in line with the National Wages Council's call.

The above is part of the article as published, the complete article can be seen below ..... if you can be bothered reading it !

http://www.straitstimes.com.sg/singapore/story/0,4386,192051,00.html?

[Thermal Image]

Quote

SIA's pilots are in the 75th percentile, meaning that they are among the most-highly paid in the industry with an SIA captain typically earning between $10,000 and $19,500 a month. This puts them ahead of Cathay Pacific's pilots who are said to be near the top of the scale, earning on the average $800,000 a year.

Unquote

Gentlemen,

If you keep your thinking caps on you will realise the part about $800,000 should read HKD800,000. If not the entire paragraph does not make sense. Such typos occur at least once every other day in the on-line edition of the Straits Times, particularly with currency conversions. It's quite harmess. If you read without thinking, too bad for you.

It's just like a loadsheet lbs-to-kg conversion error, an error not made with the intention of killing you. I think the noise surrounding the issue has made at least one person defensive and bristling with sensitivity.

[John Barnes]

I wouldn't be surprised if that typoerror was made on purpose. Don't forget that the Singaporian public is not known for critical reading. the coffeshop talk is now: " OK lah why pilots make trouble lah, they still earn $620.000 after salary cut." The type error might not be an error.

[422]

Touch'n'oops

You must really love salads.

More like u ... airlines will definitly save costs..

Serve nothing but grass and water..
:ok:

[Thermal Image]

John Barnes,

>>I wouldn't be surprised if that typoerror was made on purpose.

You are entitled to your own paranoid opinions.

>>Don't forget that the Singaporian public is not known for critical reading.

No. YOU have just demonstrated your less than critical reading abilities. To make a leap of logic and suggest that "the Singaporian (sic) public" is also like you, well, that's a bit tenuous.

>>the coffeshop talk is now: " OK lah why pilots make trouble lah, they still earn $620.000 after salary cut." The type error might not be an error.

Please continue with your silly claims and broken logic. If nothing more it's quite entertaining. After all, it shouldn't be long until mid 2004 when you leave.

You might be the first to be "offered" early retirement.

[stable approach]

Thermal Image,
Even if it were a typo ( which I doubt was accidental ), she is still trying to compare top SQ salaries to average CX salaries. If she bothered to do it correctly, we all know how the comparison would really look. If we are to use the salaries of SQ pilots fortunate to be around when yearly increments were more generous, we must also compare these to CX A scale. NO CONTEST!

[John Barnes]

My thermal friend are you now telling me that I can fly after 60. I hoped to retire to the green green fields in November 2003 when my licence expires. But you might know something that I don't know, so please fill me in.

[B Swan]

Thermal Image likens a ' jack hammer operator '.... concentrating on making holes but unable to hear and take in what the surrounding is saying.

A few simple facts remains :

1. OBS pilots were recruited when SQ was expanding too fast for the training department to handle. It saves the company cost as compare to employing a Sin-base expatriate.

2. OBS pilots should be well aware ( if not, they are in denial ) that they are seconded/leased/contracted workers. Meaning that they are there only when there is a demand and let off when there are surplus.

3. To simply state that the moment the President of ALPAS earns more than one ( most junior probably ) OBS pilot, makes the arguement of dispensing the later invalid, is trying to ' pull wool over the eyes '.

4. The suggestion of retrenchment along the lines of salary is a ' no brainer '. Imaging how an airline would be when the senior ( bigger salary ) ones get retrench everytime there is surplus and only the less experience ( lower cost ) left to man the planes !

5. A couple of years ago, when ALPAS was negotiating for a better CA, the OBS pilots without hesitation chose to accept the company's offer, collected the pay increase and even boast about it to the Sin-based pilots. And now, it should be ' fair and equal pain ' ???

6. SQ salary is nowhere near CX's. Compare ones of the same position, experience, seniority and such. Lets compare apples with apples. To criticise someone of ' reading without thinking ' reflects back on themselves. The fact remains that it's incorrect reporting ! What a different world it would be, if we taint the news to what we want !!! DENIAL !!!! ( If Thermal is in the hot-seat of an airliner and ' read with thinking ' his way, what would become of the policy and procedure...... especially with a company that employs so many nationalities )

WATCH OUT !!!There seems to be also a ' Quick-draw DEAF McGraw ' running loose !!!

[Thermal Image]

John Barnes,

You may remember on 17 Dec 2002 1822hrs you posted:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=718142#post718142

Quote
I am at the point, with three basechecks to go, that I don't give a F*** if they fire me or not.
Unquote

From your own words, as of 17 Dec 2002, you had 3 basechecks left. Even if your next basecheck was the very next day on 18 Dec, with 2 to go you would be current until mid 2004. Which is why I thought you would leave then.

Now you say that you will retire in Nov 2003. If true, it would seem that SIA has been generous in scheduling basechecks for you.

Thank you for correcting my mistake and for more information about yourself.

B Swan:

Welcome to PPRuNe; starting off your first post with a bang and much punctuation all can see. I hope you are not "tired and emotional". Allow me to respond to each point in turn.

1. OBS pilots were recruited when SQ was expanding too fast for the training department to handle. It saves the company cost as compare to employing a Sin-base expatriate.

OBS pilots as well as ANY direct entry captains are recruited simply because we cannot produce enough captains. Yes, they are cheaper than SIN-based expats, as well as senior locals (I'll come to that later).

2. OBS pilots should be well aware ( if not, they are in denial ) that they are seconded/leased/contracted workers. Meaning that they are there only when there is a demand and let off when there are surplus.

What about the direct-entry pilots on local terms (ex-MAS etc) who were hired at the time the OBS was started? Were they hired not because of "demand" (as you say) also? So if there is a surplus, should they also not be counted together with the OBS pilots? So why merely single out the OBS pilots and conveniently forget the direct-entry locals?

3. To simply state that the moment the President of ALPAS earns more than one ( most junior probably ) OBS pilot, makes the arguement of dispensing the later invalid, is trying to ' pull wool over the eyes '.

This is to drive home the point that it is not a clear cut situation of wanting to remove costly expats, more well paid than ANY local, which would then not have raised such a stink if it were so. And BTW, he does earn more than merely ONE OBS pilot.

4. The suggestion of retrenchment along the lines of salary is a ' no brainer '. Imaging how an airline would be when the senior ( bigger salary ) ones get retrench everytime there is surplus and only the less experience ( lower cost ) left to man the planes !

Please show me some airlines which have a separate payscale for "senior" line pilots, without other duties such as training or management . If SIA or ALPA-S thought it necessary to create such a category to reward them for their valuable "experience" it would have done so. Please show concrete evidence to show that such experienced pilots either boost bottom line figures or at least contribute measurably to flight safety. From SIA's viewpoint, once you are qualified for solo operations, it means you can do your job safely enough, just as the most senior line pilot is safe enough. Like I have said before in another post, pilots retire, the airline chugs on. No big deal. And BTW, I did say categorise them by appointment and then salary, ie line captains one group, instructors one group etc. In other words, by merit and then by pay. Not simply by pay alone.

5. A couple of years ago, when ALPAS was negotiating for a better CA, the OBS pilots without hesitation chose to accept the company's offer, collected the pay increase and even boast about it to the Sin-based pilots. And now, it should be ' fair and equal pain ' ???

If your OBS colleague decides for himself what he wants to accept, quickly enough, why begrudge that reality? If someone rubbed your nose in it, well, it wasn't me. What is your point? It is ALPA-S who wants them booted out, so how can that be, as you say, "fair and equal pain"?

6. SQ salary is nowhere near CX's. Compare ones of the same position, experience, seniority and such. Lets compare apples with apples. To criticise someone of ' reading without thinking ' reflects back on themselves. The fact remains that it's incorrect reporting ! What a different world it would be, if we taint the news to what we want !!! DENIAL !!!! ( If Thermal is in the hot-seat of an airliner and ' read with thinking ' his way, what would become of the policy and procedure...... especially with a company that employs so many nationalities )

Aiya, back to this issue, if you read the offending paragraph but with the HKD in place, then it make sense. As to where she got the numbers from, the basis of comparison etc why not just wait for her to issue a clarification as to what she really meant? To base an entire page of argument on speculation as to what she meant to say is a waste of my time.

And to think that anyone with basic reading and arithmetic ability could conclude that $10,000-$19,500 a month, annualised, suddenly adds up to more than $800,000 (without the HKD) is, well, insulting to that person. Don't claim that you are upset because you think that the public could be misled by such numbers. Could it be that you are upset because you are already defensive that the same people feel that you earn too much in the first place? Otherwise why get all hot and bothered about a mistake like that? It's not going to kill anyone.

It's a free market out there. If someone wants to work the same job as you for more hours and less money, then too bad if you feel threatened. It must be because you have something to lose. Are you not able to be better than them by adding more value (that SIA can acknowledge) to your work? That'd be much more constructive than wanting to sack them.

[kineticknife]

Gentlemen,
The fact remains that as Expatriates, hired guns, mercenaries or whatever else we choose to call ourselves or prefer to be addressed as, security of tenure is negligible. One would have thought that an assessment and alternative plans had been made prior to accepting expatriate term employment with a foreign carrier.

Naturally, the Singapore based crews want the foreign overseas based pilots released first, so as the cushion the impact of the imminent salary reductions.

Could you, hand on heart, honestly say that if you were in the same position with your national flag carrier and facing personal financial purgatory, not be doing the same thing?

[wotwazat]

kineticknife

Of course all pilots accepting contracts here examine the terms carefully before they sign. The SIA contract is poor basic pay (by international wide body standards) but acceptable to those that agree to come here because pay is not so bad if you fly 70+ hours and bonus history suggests 3 months on average.

Nowhere does the contract suggest that you only get your basic pay if the company makes a profit above a certain level. Neither does it suggest that the Company will ignore the agreement when it suites and force pay down to reduce losses that are in no way connected to individual performance in the job.

Any company has the right to change the terms of a future contract. Thus SIA and ALPA-S will have to agree on the terms of the next agreement due in December. If there is a requirement for a change in the pay structure to go along with a declared government policy then that is the place and time to address these issues. Similarly, SIA has every right to change the terms of new contracts or renewed contracts because the person involved has the free choice to accept or reject that contract. What is unreasonable is to change a current contract that the individual has no option to refuse because he is bonded and even less able to clear the bond because his earnings are being reduced.

The talk of getting rid of overseas based pilots is irrelevant. I agree that if the company wants to reduce pilot numbers then overseas based should go first, followed by expats in Singapore and lastly nationals. Nobody can seriously argue with that and it would be the same with any airline anywhere in the world.

The point is that SIA are not really interested in saving money here. They can sack 120 overseas pilots with 3 months notice and do that. What they are after is to reduce the pay of all of their pilots and keep it there . They must be delighted that attention is drawn away from that by all this talk of getting rid of OSB pilots. This has allowed them to claim some virtue in the press by saying "we are fair and responsible, we treat all of our employees equally".

All SIA pilots, be they ALPA-S members, OBS, expat or even management pilots should demand that whatever measures are taken should be agreed under the terms of the agreements and contracts that are presently in place. If a saving of 22.5% is needed then make it 22.5%. Don't add on NPL and reduced flying hours to make it a real 38%.

If SIA have to go a few hundred million dollars into the red for once so be it. How many other major airlines have never had to do that? When SIA is one billion in profit you don't hear the staff saying "hey, we need to talk about more pay". Why not? Because the Company would say, quite rightly " sorry guys we have an agreement that is in place till xxxx. We'll talk when we negotiate the next agreement"

How come it doesn't work the same way when the boot is on the other foot?

[CDRW]

wotwazat,

Very good post, and one of the reasons it does not work when the boot is on the other foot is quite simply that it does not suite them and I think that your point about SIA not being interested in saving money, but rather to be able to reduce the salaries and keep them reduced is spot on.

I did not know whether to laugh or cry at the comment in the Strait Times that SQ pilots are better paid than CX pilots, and even if we put those magic 3 letters, HKG, the reporter has failed to mention the pension that a CX pilot will get after 15 years service. That statement was simply a plain lie designed to further swing the public perception of the SQ pilots being overpaid!

[Bluntly So]

Wotwazat Very well written,well explained; However why does this not come out in the press so the world and the ordianry man in your country can understand what its all about?Time the ordianary guy on the streets know.
This message board is hardly known to exist outside the aviation community so it is time to take it around. Good Luck.

[wotwazat]

Bluntly So

Pleased to say there has been some fairer reporting today, let's hope it keeps up. Can't imagine why the real figures have trouble making it to the press, you would have thought that the share holders would demand that the Company should avoid being seen to pull the wool over the eyes of the public, wouldn't you?

Minister of Transport has said today that one third of the cancelled flights should resume this month. Phew, thank goodness for that, panic over, the recovery has started and it's official. No need for any of this silly wrangling over pay and SIA can get back to being "the World's most profitable Airline" without taking the profit out of the pockets of it's staff.

[sia sniffer]

SIA can re instate all cancelled services, but it wont stop the pay cut. As any schoolboy pilot knows, its yeild that counts to an airline, and quite frankly there's little of that floating around Asia.

Flying at around 35% load factor for SIA isnt good enough. Lets face it, years of boasing about their profit, and sneering at other airlines megre income have not put the airline in a particularly good light when they cry woolf.

Who cares about the profit ,if the airline is a centre of depressed pilots infighting amoung themselves about the usual racist issues. Sack the expats, cull the baseings, promote the local interest, hey nothings changed in 10 years. Different faces, same rhetoric. Like I read earlier from some disgruntled ex-Singapore expat , he'll mis the flying but not the job. As I've walked the walk...I can say yes, its was a job, but that was all. And the pay... dont make me laugh.... Has that '97 CPF cut been re-instated yet?

[progolfer]

Wilco 77
Are you Austrian and do you have a shortly trimmed moustache?

Lets just get all the expat pilots around the world to stop flying for one day shall we and see what chaos results?

I hope I never have to fly with an inferiority complexed xenephobe such as yourself.

[DIRK DIGGLER]

Reading through this thread I have just seen the name of the ALPS-S Vice President.

All I can say now is GOOD LUCK GUYS!!!!! HA HA HA HAARRRRR!!! YOU'RE SCREWED.

[twitchy]

HEY DIRK DIGGLER,

An expat is screwed the very first day when he start working for an airline like SIA ( SELFISH IRRATIONAL AIRLINES )

[millerscourt]

twitchy IMHO SIA treat their Locals even worse in a lot of cases!!

[twitchy]

millerscourt for SIA Locals or Expat don't matter, its the "money honey" where it comes from is not important....

Today's news is that the SIA will hand over the "PINK SLIPS" to the ground staff. It has finalised the names of about 500 ground staff, about 150 from SIA and others from its subsidiaries. Number of Pilots and cabin crew to be retrenched are in the pipe-line. But is it really required in a company like SIA which has been making money right from the first day of operation. Or does it mean the core values of SIA are only on paper. In my opinion

Any organisation's leadership philosophy should be to manage in good times so that the company and its people can be job-secure and prosper through bad times.

But I don't think it works here in SIA. SIA philosophy is to suck the blood of its employee's till the last drop, pay them the least in the industry. Further whenever any kind of disaster (Nature or man inflicted) strikes anywhere in the world, how SIA can benefit from it. That is the main reason why it is called a global company.

[cpt744]

I must say that in this case all of us are in the company long enough(anyone with more than 10years) will have to agree with you. So far track record has been "good" to support what you said too. Of course some can counter and say "well.. leave the company then if you're so unhappy.." You bet.. this time round is the absolute new low that I can see for pilots... the next earliest instance others start employing again, shall apply and work for other carrier and keep my mouth shut from then on and earn some real money.

Cpt744

[highcirrus]

So what’s going on guys? (no gals allowed here!) Are we going to shafted or is SIA business on the up again with HK, Beijing et al now declared SARS free?

If we are going to be decimated, how does the Singapore Government expect us to continue flying safely and undistracted by the mounting individual debt that will be required to cover our existing commitments and will we collectively decide to call it a day, requesting release from our onerous “training” bonds and one-sided contracts, on the basis of unilateral, needless and gross abrogation of contract by the ultimate controllers of SIA - that self same group of posturing popinjays who make up this Keystone Authority?

I fail to understand how it is possible for professional aircrew to safely operate under the present conditions of fear and uncertainty that pertain to SIA. I assume that the government is ready to field the flack from the next SQ 006 with its customary aplomb and that customers booking SIA are aware of the grave tensions within the airline which seriously threaten their safety on a daily basis.