Cross-channel advice

[QDMQDMQDM]

Planning to go to Normandy in June. If the weather is good we'd like to cross our fingers and toes and go direct Portland Bill to Cherbourg, otherwise it'll be the short crossing. Anyway, what is the situation with the danger areas south of Portland and R156 A/B at Cap de la Hague. Who do you talk to on the way over? And what about all that ludicrous Class A airspace around the Channel Islands which requires an SVFR clearance and a transponder.

Any advice or sources of info gratefully received.

Thanks,

QDM

[Keef]

There's a VFR route, SAM R185 IIRC - IOW to MP, which you can use with help from Plymouth Mil. Done it many times, usually up as close as I can get to FL100. Bit of planning needed, but never had any problems with the danger areas.

I'm up in the Welsh hideaway at the moment and not got the books here, so can't give more details.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Thanks, Keef. Yes, I saw the VFR route from the IoW, but coming from Devon that adds a lot of superfluous flying. Ideally, I would guess we'd go Portland Bill to Cap de La Hague VRP, then Cap de Flamanville VRP, studiously avoiding the R156. That's the nuclear power station, isn't it? Don't fancy a SAM up my jacksie.

Presumably, North of 50N you talk to London Info or Plymouth Military, then South of there it's Brest or Deauville? And what about the SVFR clearance to transit the Channel Islands Class A. What's the form for that?

QDM

[Flyin'Dutch']

Buenos QDMx3

Talk to Solent and if you go to Cherbourg you will have nowt to do with The Zone.

Dunno if you can get PPR to operate without a TXDR but may be worth a call to them. They are always very helpful. Fuel on the CI cheap as chips. Last Friday 54p per liter.

Have you finalised the route yet?

FD (mildly envious :) )

Bloomin' 'eck mate you are quick of the mark. Plymouth can tell you whether the danger areas are active or not. The Cherbourg thing is indeed the power station but as far as I know the SAMs have gone.

No doubt telling you that seacrossings without an AI can be a bit of a pain in the proverbial, is like teaching granny to suck eggs, but just in case.............

[QDMQDMQDM]

FD,

We'll be going in two super cubs, both with transponders!

Unfortunately, the route from Portland Bill to Cap de la Hague crosses the CI Class A by my reading of the map. It would actually be simpler for us to go from Start Point, but it's a reasonable amount longer and we are in VERY slow aircraft! Anyway, we'll only go the long way if it's really nice.

Planning to go to the French piper club annual meeting near Lisieux, then meander down to Switzerland. Looking at the French maps the place is criss-crossed with 800-1500 ft 'ASFC' fast jet lanes. But what does 'ASFC' mean? If it's AGL, precvisely which ground level does it refer to?

QDM

No doubt telling you that seacrossings without an AI can be a bit of a pain in the proverbial, is like teaching granny to suck eggs, but just in case.............

Have got a pucker AI and full blind-flying 'T' set of instruments. As so often with the Super Cub, however, the capabilities of the aircraft far exceed those of its pilot. Like I say, it'll have to be really nice for us to go the long way.

QDM

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi

You brave aviators! All that water!

ASFC stands for Above Surface and is just that.

Not all of them are active all the time (again IIRC)

Just thumbing through the BAM, if I can find more I will post it here.

FD

PS: Lost your emailaddress but the offer still stands re the Jepp. Have only just cancelled the renewal service.

[Flying Boat]

QDM

Why not fly to the Channel Islands in their 'Ludicrous Airspace'?
Bournemouth-Jersey is only 50 minutes in a PA28-181.

Land at Jersey & get detailed info on the areas nearby & VAT free fuel. The Aeroclub handle all GA traffic to 3 tonnes, only £3 every 1/2 tonne, so a PA28 is £9, that includes 7 days free parking. Perhaps land, park & catch a ferry to France.

There is so much to see over France, the V1 launch ramps south of Cherbourg, St Mere Eglise (sometimes with a parachutist hanging from the church), the Mulberry Harbour, Pegasus Bridge (Past CAEN), the beaches and cemetaries. Not to mention beautiful French towns & countryside. The aeroclub can normally guide you in the right direction.

Check your NOTAMS, chart, Jepps & any other source of info & you'll be fine. Before departure call the Jersey met office & you will get an accurate forecast for your trip (they are fully manned & all modcons) 0900 6650033 Automated. ATIS 0901 8101009 Automated, 112.2En-route (JSY VOR). Airport Flight Briefing 01534 492243.

File a flight plan & you will be expected. You will anyway for our Gallic cousins.

If crossing the danger areas I call Plymouth on the phone the day before, their number is in the Jepp. Being military they may use them at a last minute notice. They are very helpful too. Last time routed Jersey-Bournemouth DCT & back.

You enter the CI CTR at 50N, west of Cap de la Hague. Call the Channel Islands before entering the CTR on 125.2, do as you are told & it will be easy flying. Enjoy the view.
The ATCOs at Jersey are very friendly & helpful, not a group to fear. Most are members of the Aeroclub.
SVFR is fairly simple, maintain VFR & do as the controllers tell you, you can fly in vis as low as 3km.

If landing on 09 in Jersey & the wind is almost staight down the runway watch the little cliff that gives a downdraft, a bit of power just before solves that problem.

Have Fun.

FB
:) :D :)

[Flyin'Dutch']

Just found the appropriate pages in the BAM; it tells you per number what the restrictions are.

FD

[Flying Boat]

I have just seen you r going to Switzerland.

See if you can find the French Military frequencies for the relevant areas you will cross, it will help a lot.

If not, route through controlled areas, then at least you are talking to someone & won't be intercepted.

Sometimes they can be touchy with no radio contact.

Often the military don't talk to the civilians & buzz across as if it was 1930, had 2 close ones over France (normally Alphajets) & a Mirage play over Waterloo & 2 F16s use me for fun at the Belgian/Luxembourg Border.

Wish I was with you, but doing ATPLs.

Have fun.

FB:ok:

[GroundBound]

Can only confirm what Flying Boat says about Jersey - its a great place and everyone is very helpful.

Call Jersey, get a squawk, read back the clearance and follow it - it'll usually be SVFR not above "x" 1000ft. You might get the odd heading to keep you clear of traffic.

Jersey ATC are used to GA and are very accommodating - I know, I got my PPL there. :ok:

[QDMQDMQDM]

Thanks to all. Useful info.

ASFC stands for Above Surface and is just that.

This seems a bit of a strange idea. These lanes cross some pretty undulating country.

QDM

[PhilD]

FB

3k min vis for SVFR only if you have an IMC. 10k otherwise.

[Flyin'Dutch']

These lanes cross some pretty undulating country.

They are for low flying practice.

FD

[Flying Boat]

PhilD

Not according to my ATPL Aviation Law & JAR-OPS notes.

Yes, in the LASORS it says not less than 10km in a control zone, except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone.

If QDM is going to fly to France or the Channel Islands he would have to file a flight plan with a detailed route.



The following are from the JAR law & Ops:


Taken from Annex 2 - Rules of the Air

Class B,C,D,E,F,G
VFR: 8km at and above 3050m (10,000ft) AMSL
5km below 3050m (10,000ft) AMSL
Also Class F&G at and below 900m (3000ft) AMSL or 300m (1000ft) above terrain whichever is higher;
When the ATS authority prescribe:
Lower Flight Visibilities to 1500m may be permitted for flights operating:
At speeds that, in the prevailing visibility, will give adequate opportunity to observe other traffic or any obstacles in time to avoid collision, or
In circumstances in which the probability of encounters with other traffic would normally be low eg in areas of low volume traffic and for aerial work at low levels.

Except when a clearance is given from an ATCU, VFR flights cannot take-off or land at an aerodrome in a CTR, or enter an aerodrome traffic zone or traffic pattern when:
The ceiling is less than 1500ft
The visibility is less than 5km


JAR-OPS 1.465 - VFR operating minima

The Operator ensures that:
a, VFR flights are conducted in accordance with Appendix 1.
b, Special VFR flights are not commenced when the visibility is less than 3km and are not conducted when the visibility is less than 1.5km

Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 1.465 Minimum Visibilities for VFR Operations Note 2

Cat A & B aeroplanes may be operated in flight visibilities down to 3000m, provided the appropriate ATS authority permits use of a flight visibility less than 5km, and the circumstances are such, and the probability of encounters with other traffic is low, and the IAS is 140kt or less.


Hope this clarifies the VFR & SVFR rules as per the class A Airspace around the Channel Islands.

FB:D

[PhilD]

FB

Sorry, but I have to differ on this one, at least as far as UK licences are concerned. The ANO Part A (Licences), Section 1 (UK Licences) says:

1 AEROPLANE PILOTS Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of the licence shall be entitled to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.

(2)
(a) ...
(b) ...

(c) He shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane:

(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than 3km;

(ii) on a special VFR flight in a control zone in a flight visibility of less than 10 km except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph; or

(iii) out of sight of the surface.


Unless Jersey ATZ is 'notified for the purpose ... (?)' I take this to mean that you might be able to use a non-CAA JAA licence to fly SVFR in Class A in less than 10k viz, but not on your CAA licence without an IMC or IR.

[englishal]

Hi QDM,

If I were you I'd chat with Plymouth Mil from Devon to PB to check the status of the DA's south of Portland, [and Lyme Bay if you plan to cross that] and if inactive, head stright from PB to ORTAC, chatting to London Info on the way over. Near the zone you contact Jersey Zone for your entry clearance [assuming you're entering the zone]. If you fancy a stop in the CI, try Alderney, there is a great curry house there, plus you get your fuel draw back, and duty free booze as a bonus. Landing is about 8GBP with fuel I believe [and its just a hop to Cherbourg].

I haven't got a map here, this is all from memory, so apologies if I'm talking out of my arse:D

In my experience, its actually a piece of cake flying around the CI's. If routing to Alderney, Jersey zone will give you entry clearance, and sqwark, then will hand you off to Gurnsey approach and finally Alderney tower when you're in sight.

Cheers
EA

[Keef]

'Narf getting technical, innit!

Call Plymouth Mil for crossing if you go the Portland Bill direct to Channel Islands route (I would, for that nice cheap fuel).

Jersey - phone for PPR before takeoff (number's in the guides). I've never had a problem with them.

If you have IMC or IR, you can fly SVFR down to 3km in the CI Class A, othewise it's 10km.

Once you get to France, it's easy after you've cleared Customs. Make sure you land at a Customs airfield first, though. Once you've done that, you're free to roam!

Those French low-level mil routes aren't much of a problem if you do your plogging properly, and note all the frequencies so you can call to check/get transit. Most will let you transit if you talk to them; some won't. Be sure you know the French for your circuit calls and to understand the autoresponders that will answer you on those LF-R frequencies if they're unmanned.

Enjoy the trip - sounds great!

[Flying Boat]

PhilD & Keef

I stated QDM should file a flight plan, then he has a route.

A route then allows 3km. How else could pilots leave Jersey with 8km VIS, going to France (with a flight plan)?

If you have an IMC you could then fly with VIS down to 1.8km, or 1.5km if authorised by an ATCO.

Enough of us pub aviation lawyers debating, I would like an aviation professional, ATCO or Pro flyer (preferably both) to clarify this question.

Regardless, hope QDM has a great time.

FB;)

[welkyboy]

As an ex ATCO from Jersey, I can tell you that Jersey will only accept aircraft Special VFR to land at Channel Island airports, if the vis is 3000m or greater and the cloud base 600 ft or more. These are local rules and are in the Jersey ANO. If you are transitting the Zone as long as you can remain VFR(clear of cloud) you are normally accepted but expect to be cleared at FL55 direct Skery to Dinard. They assume that you hold a valid IMC rating if not the limits on viz are 8kms.
The Zones around Cap de la Hague and Flamanville are still active so keep well clear otherwise you might be formated on by a FAF Mirage! these can fly remakably slow as they check your registration(as a local pilot found out recently)
Enjoy your trip

[Flying Boat]

Thanks Welkyboy,

Cleared it up for me.

It has helped alot.

FB:)

[bookworm]

FlyingBoat

except on a route or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph

is intended to be parsed as

except on a route notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph or in an aerodrome traffic zone notified for the purpose of this sub-paragraph

Unless the route you are instructed to fly under SVFR is notified for the purposes of that sub-paragraph of Schedule 8 (as some entry/exit lanes elsewhere are), you need 10 km vis without an IMC rating.