cabin safety for babies

[sparklygirl]

hi,
does anyone know if german airlines follow the same rules for cabin safety as we do in the uk?
ive just travelled with lufthansa with my 19 month old nephew, he didnt have a seat cos hes under two but nothing was provided to secure him for the flight, we were just told by the cabin staff to hold on tight to him! this seems totally out of order to me! what would happen if we had a bad landing or hit a bad batch of turbulance???? ive spoken to the CAA who told me to speak to the german embassy which i did and they gave me an e mail address for the german equivalent of the CAA, ive mailed them but heard nothing as yet. does anyone have any ideas??? :confused: :confused:

[Notso Fantastic]

Babies are expendable. It is one way to give passengers relief from those objectionably noisy, smelly things. I wince when I see brats having a tantrum and really feel for the people around them. My main concern is not for the baby, but for other people! Maybe not PC these days, but babies and aeroplanes and people in tight confines really do not mix. Good on Lufty!

[PAXboy]

Yes, yes NotSo, many of us think the same but the question is:

What are regulations in German registered aircraft, to stop infants leaving parent's grip and travelling at high speed into NotSoFantastic's face during RTO?

You can argue that, with an RTO, the infant would travel forward and hit the cabin divider or back of next seat, however, if the problem were sudden turbulence that caused the a/c to drop away to one side, then the infant might travel sideways, across the aisle and into you?

[Jetdriver]

An infant extension seat belt is provided to secure the infant to the adult. This must be used at all times the seat belt is on. You say he didn't have a seat because he is under two. That is not strictly correct. He can have a seat with an approved car seat attached to it from age 6 months to age 3 years. The point is you pay for the seat at least at child ticket rates.

In my opinion it ought to be compulsory for all children over the age of 6 months to be seated in an approved seating device and charged as such ( child ticket price). At this time it isn't but the option remains to avail yourself of this facility.

This is the situation in the UK and I would imagine similar rules prevail in Germany. If you didn't have an extension seat belt you should have asked for one. The car seat option is otherwise the way to go although it wont be as cheap as 10% of the fare. I certainly wouldn't want a 19 month old on my lap for any length of time

[knobbygb]

We travelled extensivley when ours was under 2, including LH. As far as I can remember, the infant seat belt thingie seemed to be a perculiarly British thing, although I may be mistaken as sprog always travelled on it's mums lap :D

To be honest, I didn't think much of those infany belts anyway - I imagined they'd only provide token protection in all but the mildest of 'incidents' so didn't worry about it. A parent clinging desperatly to it's child would probably be better protection in my opinion.

This was before the days of approved car-seats strapped to the a/c seat. To be honest, with the industry being so safety concious, I can't understand why this hasn't become compulsory already for all ages of baby. Passengers wouldn't like the extra cost of buying an extra seat? True, but if the only other choice were to not travel, they'd soon get used to it.

[digna]

as per the JAAR they should provide you with a infant seat belt. which you know buckeld to your seat belt so it keeps the infant safe in case of sudden stop or god forbid crash or something, any way I am sure as lufthansa is amagor carrier with a safty regulations that are up to standards must have have that rule as well.( but may be I am saying may be) something was not right on your flight :confused:

[Bubbette]

If you were concerned about your child's safety, you would purchase a seat and then use an approved car-style seat.

[sparklygirl]

I was VERY concerned about my nephews safety thank u very much!! wot could we do? refuse to fly? there was nothing that could be done at the time, the cabin attendent told us that there was no means of securing him to either a seat (cos they were all full) or to his mother/father cos they (lufthansa) dont suply seatbelt extensions! i will try speaking to the CAA again!

[CainanUK]

Babies are expendable. It is one way to give passengers relief from those objectionably noisy, smelly things. I wince when I see brats having a tantrum and really feel for the people around them. My main concern is not for the baby, but for other people! Maybe not PC these days, but babies and aeroplanes and people in tight confines really do not mix. Good on Lufty!

NotSo,

You are an absolute bell end! Why should my wife and I be denied the ability to travel with my two children that I love and adore? I am an American living in England. If my kids want to see Grandma in the USA, guess what....WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO FLY!! And how dare you say my kids are expendable! I would really love it if you opened up your big mouth to me about my "objectionably noisy, smelly things". I got news for you pal, babies cry. That is all they know how to do. Most parents try to be polite, but sometimes babies cry and kids will just be kids. If you don't want to hear them, guess what, there is business and first class. Cough up the dough (You must have it because by your posting it is painfully obvious you must not have a family) and go sit where there wont be any kids!

[Ozzy]

Ouch,


I think NS was jesting...cripes I hope NS was jesting. I have traveled with my kids, they slept. Didn't annoy anybody.

Ozzy

[yggorf]

Travelled extensively with 4 (!!!) kids. Never had any problem: just stow them on the floor between the seats, with ample provisions of gooey things to eat. Parents feet keeping them from flying around. Noise easily covered by Dad's snoring and stench by Dad's farting.:p
Only drawback: upgrading to business class is rare.

[flapsforty]

knobbygb, infant belts are more capable of withstanding higher g-forces than parental arms. However loving, desperate or otherwise worthy the parent may be.
A baby flying around the cabin at high speed will not only meet a fatal end, it will also pose a real danger to other people.
But even with the balt, the probable jack-knife action of the parental body will not have a good effect on the lap-child.

All in all, belts better than not, but car safety seat even better. All comes down to a question of probablitlities and money really.....

Of course parents should be allowed to travel with their kids. And of course some kids scream so much that they pose a mental health hazard for those forced to share an aircraft cabin with them.
And of course some people should never have been allowed to breed in the first place, since they do not have the first clue of how to socialise their offspring. But that's another matter entirely..... :rolleyes:

Had a company pilot, his FA wife and their 3 kids traveling with us a few weeks back. The two eldest were noisy, rambunctious, incredibly rude to the cabin crew and annoyed the other pax. The toddler was allowed to stand on the seats in his muddy booties, scream everytime something wasn't right, crawl through the aisle dfuring food service and had a nappyu change on the seat instead of the specially provided nappy changing table in the loo. The parents watched it all with fond smiles.
Even if it was only Amsterdam-Nice, I'd had enough after 30 minutes. Had a quick visit with the Captain. After which said pilot also had a quick visit with the Captain. He left the cockpit looking a great deal less bushy tailed & the kid's behavious improved dramatically.
No fond goodbyes for the cabin crew when they disembarked though. ;)

Sparklygirl if you really want to find out, why not write to the JAA, their addy is:

THE EUROPEAN JOINT AVIATION AUTHORITIES
Saturnusstraat 8-10 PO Box 3000
2130 KA Hoofddorp The Netherlands

Fax no: (31) (0) 23-5621714

PS YES I have kids. And have traveled with them from when they were 6 weeks old. On staff tickets, so I made bl**dy sure that they never annoyed anyone, always looked impeccable and behaved like little angels. (yes they cried, but parents armed with breats, bottles, pacifiers and what not, so never for long)
They are now teenagers and as a result of life long maternal terror & brainwash, they still go into perfect-traveler mode as soon as they enter an aircraft.
They even look halfway way human when dressed according to staff-travel rules. Flying brings out the best in them, and only on an aircraft do Mr40 and I ever experience that warm glow of having actually managed to raise pleasant human beings instead of incomprehensible savages. (normal present day teenagers) ;)

[PAXboy]

It is true that many folks do not know how to behave in public and when they have children ...

For my first flight ever, aged 9, my elder siblings and I were told by the parents, "You must think of the aircraft cabin, as if you are sitting in the living room of mummy and daddy's friends house."

We therefore knew that only top best behaviour was acceptable. It was a logn trip, from LHR to JNB. In December 1965, the VC-10 (wipes away tear at sweet memory of that sweet aircraft) bounced at Nairobi so the whole trip, including airports, was 18 hours. I did that trip again in my teens and the same rules applied! Now the journey is 10.5 hrs (wheels-to-wheels) and the babies and children never stop!

I recall an FA on LGW~MBJ (Montego Bay) saying how a parent had got onto the flight with a babe in arms and (whilst boarding) had asked "Got any nappies?" Had she looked at the ticket and calculated the number of hours? Had she any idea where the Carribbean is? Perhaps she was just hoping for a freebie?

But, as I say, it is not just that people do not know how to behave in an a/c cabin - they do not know how to get along with the wide variety of folks and situations that we now encounter every day. Flaps, your story of the airline family is sobering. :ugh:

[sparklygirl]

thank you for your reply flapsforty! at last a sensible answer from someone! i will contact the JAA and try to get some answers! :ok:

[answer=42]

We have travelled on a couple of carriers, including SAS, with our baby in an approved car seat. No problems to anyone.

When travelling British Airways (737), we were informed by CC that the car seat could not be used according to CAA regulations because it would impede emergency evacuation. A seatbelt extension was provided.

With our model car seat in particular, releasing the baby could be done in a very few seconds. Obviously, rules have to apply to all models - CC can't accept one car seat and refuse another.

Are car seats really forbidden or is there a misunderstanding?

answer=42

[Ranger One]

Last year did a bunch of flying with very young baby, so grandma would have a chance to spend some time with him before she passed away :(

One thing struck me: for very small infants, it seems to me a securely-attached basinette or 'skycot' (affixed to the bulkhead) would provide the best protection for an infant during all stages of flight - there are belts and a net over the top, the whole thing is padded etc etc - and yet we were forbidden to use the cot until in the cruise, and supposed to cease using it during turbulence!

Seems a lot safer to have baby in the cot, strapped down and further prevented from becoming a missile by the mesh, than having him on parents lap, however secured.

No question of impeding exit in event of RTO etc. - there's just us in our row, and frankly it's our choice if we want to risk impeding our own exit slightly by using the cot.

R 1

[You want it when?]

We did UK to Nice twice this year and will be going again over Christmas. Shortest person will be 1 and a bit so will probably get a lap extension belt again. Only flown BA and EasyJet and always been given a belt and priority boarding.

I noticed that BA attempted to group the families with short children together. Yes he cried but milk and pacifiers did the job. You can always ask to leave the plane if you don't like babies.

[Pax Vobiscum]

The old-style USSR Aeroflot had swinging cradles that clipped to the luggage rails (overhead lockers being considered a decadent capitalist luxury). Very effective at swinging the lil' darlings to sleep, but the stuff of nightmares for H&S!

Come to think of it, they're probably still in use on internal flights - anyone been over there recently??

[Memetic]

Flew in the USA last year and the very assertive cabin crew sitting opposite us for T/O & landing kept telling a British mother to keep the baby held in her arms facing away from her body with comments like "If we stop suddenly and you will bend and cause your child serious injury."

This (no doubt sensible) advice did not go down well with the mother who had requested a seat belt and been treated like she was mad by the crew member who was insistant (verging on saying the mother was making it up!) that no carrier anywhere offered the child extension belt the mother was requesting. " I ahve been flying for 30 years etc..."

She was still disbelieving even when several Brits withing earshot backed up the Mother!

Not the most customer friendly performance ever!

Never had that sort of crew on international flights with this ariline, I wonder if they get "saved" for US domestic?

[RatherBeFlying]

The car seat is the best option. There have been GA crashes where infants in car seats survived when adults did not; so they do work.

Each country can have different regulations and each carrier can interpret them differently. Some authorities require the seat by the window so that it does not impede others from exiting.

Before booking, contact the carrier's customer service to see if their infant car seat policy allows car seats. It may help to have them fax it to you in case the cabin crew has other ideas.

When booking, make it plain that a car seat will be used, especially as a seat belt extension may be needed to secure the car seat.

If they don't allow car seats, make it clear that you will be using another carrier. If this changes their minds, insist on a fax.

[Iron City]

Didn't see the swinging cot on the Siberair IL-86 from Novosibirsk to Moscow but that was 4.5 yrs ago.


In the U.S. the seatbelt extensions (Belly Belts) and booster seats are verboten. See the Federal Aviation Administration Civil Aeromedical Institute web site (start at faa.gov or use Google or some other search engine) and be prepared to get the wits scared out of you with video of 3yo size crash test dummies in 16G decelerations. The car seats come right out, up and off the aircraft seats so much that in many cases the child would be smashed right into the seat in front, especially in coach.

The way in U.S. is car child safety seat that meets federal motor vehicle safety standards is used in the aircraft. When you use car seat it must go in the window seat and is not allowed in the exit isle (obviously) On the lap is allowed, but there is no way a parent can hold a baby, much less a child in a 16G crash. After the child is 40# can use the aircraft seatbelt.


As for conduct, you are on your own. Lots of snacks, lots of toys, soft cuddlies, majbe they 'll go to sleep. If teething, I found a finger of Bacardi Dark works well on the oldest, middle didn't like it at all, and the youngest was partial to Johnny Walker Black.

[Memetic]

http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/National-Resource/CAMI21st.html

[ShesGreatintheGalley]

i am a flight attendant in australia and our company regulations state that all lap infants be restrained by an infant seatbelt, which is attached to the parents seatbelt. (i dont even know if it is our CASA law, just our company policy.
Parents also have the option to purchase a seat and provide their own approved car seat but it rarely happens - either for lack of knowledge or not wanting to pay the extra ... the latter i think.

I am agreeing with all who have said it should be made a law. No matter how much you love your child, there is little chance of holding on to it in a crash.. infant seatbelts wil probably protect somewhat against clear air turbulence (if they are nice and tight which they rarely are) and some sudden breaking/minor crash but also, i can see infants flying out of those in an accident too.

The absolute ideal situation is where the airline provides approved car seats at a minimal charge (or free) for the infant.
And they should make it law worldwide to have ALL pax regardless of age or size to occupy a seat.. if they are infants they must use the provided car seat (or bring their own), having infants sit on laps should be banned.

Car seats are proven to be much safer than lap belts, the child is literally harnessed in like the crew, i think the child would have a higher survival rate than the parents in some situations.
The child seats are usually fitted on a window seat, so as not to hinder an evacuation, and the only other requirements i can think of is that they are not fitted in an exit row.

If you fly on an airline and you cant bring your car seat or the airline wont provide one (either dont fly with them!) or wear a papoose thing that is strapped to your body, with the baby inside. some designs have shoulder straps for the baby that prevent it from flying up and out.

That is the only thing that annoys me about my job, seeing infants not secured safetly enough. there are stricter laws about stowing your carry on baggage for goodness sake! If i was ever put in a position of power,that is one of the issues i would address and make mandatory. Busses are another thing but that is a different story also....

[Pax Vobiscum]

Iron City

No, the IL-86 didn't have them even back then - love the air vents in the back of the seat though - true soviet ingenuity and far more effective than ones in the ceiling! I saw the cradles in IL-62 and Tu-154.

[Iron City]

Never been on the Il-62 or Tu-154. Intersting designs, same laws of phytsics but different solutions. Must admit that an air vent in the ceiling of the IL-86 has along way to go to get air down to the pax, so the seatback solution was most logical, would love to see all the plumbing. Liked the Il-86 entry from lower port side, past the "check room" and up the "grand staircase". Make all bagage carry on...might limit the amount of junk people take if they have to carry it all. Lots like MILAIR C-130s strap your seabag to the pallet on the ramp.


ShesGreatinthe galley has it all in one message. The only thing I would add to his/her post is that installing a car seat in the aircraft is a little easier than in the car with their silly seatbelt/shoulder belt combination that requires the steel locking clip (but don't forget it because you''ll need it in the rental car at the other end...and when you get home) but having to put it in the window seat makes things a little tight.

The drill in our family has evolved so:
Dad goes first down the aisle with the seat and a backpack, gets to the appropriate seat and puts the car seat in place, gives backpack to #1 daughter to stow. In putting the car seat in it helps to kneal on the car seat to get it really down into the nice padded, comfortable (?) A/C seat, thread the A/C seatbelt and get it fastened really really tight (learned this trick from a Delta cabin crew). Dad or #1 son sit next to child & child seat and someone else draws the short straw and gets the aisle seat. Person in aisle seat responsible for 4.7 toilet runs per hour of flight. Other family members do not sit near child, pretend they don't know the other three and quietly pass the time. Lucky them.

From seeing the CAMI tests It appears that the car seats have a real problem being in tight enough to not displace forward and smash into the seat in front. Possibly some kind of ridgid wedge (see the movies and there is also a powerpoint presentation on the site) or removing the seat cushion all together (hey, the car seat is already padded) to get a better car seat A/C seat interface would be the key here.

[Groundbased]

We travelled with our one year old recently for a holiday.

Were provided with a lap restraint which looks pretty ineffective. I think generally I would prefer to pay for a seat and use the car seat type solution from a safety perspective. Provided of course the flight element could be satisfactorily decoupled form the cost of a package holiday.

What does get to me though is that on all the occasions when I have travelled with her the pushchair has been returned to us at the aircraft steps (or airbridge) when down route. Coming back into the UK it always get sent with the aggage. So on return to LHR we had to walk about 3/4 mile carrying her and because the handlers missed the arrival had to wait 1hr plus in the baggage hall with thousands of others. Surely it can't be that difficult to offload these items first?

[curmudgeon]

My experience paxing with 3 kids in the last decade is that we got the seat belt extensions about half the time - the rest we had to hold the infant and hope for the best.

Youngest son also once travelled in a bassinet suspended from the overhead lockers on an Air France 747-400. For the return flight I was particularly keen that he be in a bulkhead bassinet, as the first one was just under an aircon outlet, and the cigarette smoke from the smokers was being recirculated and blasted onto him.

cur

[newarksmells]

Perhaps you are the one who should upgrade to Business or 1st Class. Unless of course you think you and and your family have the right to disturb 400 passengers because "If they don't like it, they should upgrade'.

Terrible attitude. I'm so sick of the minority trying to make rules for the majority. If your kids are going to scream and cry and annoy the rest of the passengers for a 12 hour flight, you need to either drive or take the train.

And yes, I have 2 kids aged 19 and 14 now, and like FF so elequently stated, I told my kids at a very early age that flying was indeed a priviledge and nothing less than their best behavour would be accepted.

Newarksmells

[answer=42]

Is the following a fair summary:

There is a consensus on the forum that car seats, especially when child is facing backward or when a decent interface with the aircraft seat is provided, is safest.

Belly strap is banned in the US, although there is no video comparing belly strap with 'child being held'.

British Airways, quoting CAA rules, bans car seats and imposes belly straps.

Somehow I doubt that a papoose would be permitted if a car seat is banned.

Anyone from Nigel's bunch care to advise? Faxing each time I travel with baby is perhaps not the ideal approach.

answer=42

[T_richard]

I have traveled with my children by air since they were 6-8 months old. Proper planning; food, toys etc, led to predictable performance. But even the best disciplined child gets airsick, uncomfortable, or queasy or fidgity. When that happens, I apply love and discipline to keep the child within acceptable behavioral parameters. I can spot the true parents around me on the plane, they are the ones who will step up to help with supplies, an extra hand or whatever if asked. The breeders on the other hand scowl and complain to CC about "that unruly child" God has special plans for those people, I think.

My favorite traveling experiances revolve around child-friendly airline staff who proactively extend every courtesy available to me to make the flying experiance for me and my children the best it can be. Sometimes, this means the bulkhead seats, once it required first class seating on an overbooked flight:ok: Needless to say it took awhile to convince my children that FC was not going to be our standard of travel hence forth. I'd rather fly with an unruly child on board than an unruly adult , but that's just me

[mainfrog2]

answer=42

BA doesn't ban car seats it just has requirements of them.

They must have a integral shell type frame, (not bolted to the outside of the shell),
It needs to fit in the aircraft seat and not overhang it.
When the aircraft belt is fitted through the back of the seat , the buckle mustn't touch the seat frame.
The belts of the seat must be minimum 1" in width and be of a five point harness type, with a single latch quick release.
If it's the really fancy recliner type it can be reclined but must sit upright for takeoff landing and turbulence.
If it has a table this must be removed for take off and landing.

It sounds like a lot of rules but many good quality car seats do fit these rules.


They can't be fitted to exit rows or in the seat row forward and aft of the exit rows.

If the baby is less than 6months old it must sit on a lap for takeoff, landing and turbulence (don't ask me why I don't understand it either.) but it can use an approved car seat during the cruise.

[answer=42]

mainfrog2

Interesting post. As a CC, could you in practice accept one child seat and reject another? Our seat in question does conform to the rules as you describe but for one reason or another was not allowed to be used.

Is there a public document that describes the rules that I can perhaps use to try to persuade?

answer=42

[mainfrog2]

Answer=42

Yes, as CC we could accept one seat over another. However if it fitted all BA's requirements then it would be churlish of us to refuse it's use.

Sorry no public document and the website doesn't help very much at all. It mentions Britax seats which are available. Here's a link to what is on BA's website.BA.com baby/infant seats (http://www.britishairways.com/AskBA.servlet?audience=travel&eId=112001&url=http://askba.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/generic_uk.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php&p_sid=uVn7nDXg&p_lva=&p_faqid=781&p_created=1011871627&p_sp=cF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTE0JnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9IlR 5cGVzIG9mIGJhYnkgc2VhdHMiJnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9MyZwX2NhdF9sdmw xPTEyJnBfY2F0X2x2bDI9fmFueX4mcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=)

Did a bit of trawling through the CAA website and found this pdf file it goes into detail what the seat requirements are, you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader for this though.CAA & child safety seats (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_469.PDF)

Hope this all helps for you.

[answer=42]

Mainfrog2

Thank you very much for the information. I look forward to flying with you and your colleagues.

answer=42

[Daysleeper]

Just to bring this topic back to life. Has anyone experiance of child restraint vests?
such as
http://www.urchin.co.uk/acatalog/Holiday.html

This one is FAA aproved. Anyone know of a CAA aproved version?

[richterscale10]

Apparently under Icelandic CAA rules - it is not compusory for parents to use an extension seatbelt during take off / landing for an infant under two years................maybe its the same in Germany.

[answer=42]

Some more info and a question.

Found out the hard way that seat belt extensions are banned by law on Lufty and all other German carriers. So what's compulsory in the UK is banned in Germany and the USA.

I can accept that set belt extensions are not ideal but surely they're better than a parental arm.

Can anyone please tell me what Air France's policy on extensions / child seats is? Family=42 has a transatlantic flight coming up.

Not getting at Lufty - they have been very good to me on more than one occasion recently.

answer=42