No POH in my aeroplane?

[Keef]

I'm a bit baffled by something that's appeared in several threads of late, with folks asking questions about the aircraft they usually fly. It seems they haven't seen (or in some cases even heard of) a POH.

Isn't it a legal requirement in the UK for the POH (or equivalent) to be carried in all aircraft that have a C of A? Our POH is marked to say specifically that it IS the POH for G-UTSY that forms part of the C of A.

Do flying schools and clubs have some dispensation to hide the POH from students etc, or do they just ignore the law, or did I miss something?

I even bought myself a POH for each aircraft we've owned, and cross-checked it against the official one (ie photocopied the W&B schedule etc) so that I could look things up at home rather than having to wait till I got into the aircraft.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Place I fly has them all in the briefing room.

[StrateandLevel]

A Pilots Operating Handbook is required for all Permit to Fly Aircraft.

Aircraft on a public transport C of A should have a Flight Manual which forms part of the C of A.

[AerBabe]

Last time I looked my flying group had the POHs for all aircraft clearly marked and next to the log sheets. Students are 'encouraged' to read them, look things up in them and generally be aware of the information they contain.

[High Wing Drifter]

The POH is derived from the Flight Manual. The Flight Manual must be carried in the plane on international travel along with the CofA as it forms part of the CofA. Flights only within UK airspace need not travel with these documents.

My POH for the C152 I fly is combined with all my checklists and contains all the speed, weight, stress and endurance info I need to do balance calcs, fuel calcs and performance calcs. Not very big, only about 30 pages opposed to the Flight Manual's 200 odd.

Every student at our place get handed one of these and told to read it on day one! Heaven knows what happens elsewhere??

Edited cos of terrible smelling.

[Pilotage]

All aeroplanes should imho have a flight manual / POH / pilots notes (the terms are effectively interchangeable in most cases).

Problem is far too many organisations, even syndicates, seem to regard them as privileged information. In my opinion at-least nobody should be going near an aircraft until they have read the APPROVED flight manual - not some mickey mouse copy by AFE that doesn't cover emergencies, the specific equipment installed and probably refers to a subtly different version with different performance figures.

I'm amazed it's one thing CAA/PFA/BMAA have never really cracked down on - although I think checking it's there is part of the permit /CofA revalidation inspection.

I once screwed up and bent an aeroplane that I'd been flying for a month or so. At the time of my accident I was still trying to get access to the handling section of the POH. I will never know if it contributed to the accident, but the way I was flying it at the time was

(a) As I had been briefed and checked out
(b) Differently to advised by the POH.

And the instructor who checked me out hadn't read the manual either because I remember asking him at the time. (I now own my own which I bought privately, for the same aeroplane, and have certainly read it now!).

It may be legally shaky from a copyright viewpoint, but I am firmly of the opinion that any club / syndicate / organisation that runs aeroplanes should be providing copies of APPROVED operators manuals to its pilots. But, very very few do.

P

[Kingy]

Pilotage,

PFA Aircraft:

Not one of my aircraft has a POH, four are homebuilts and two are over 60years old with no POH ever been written by the factory. It is certainly not part of the PFA permit renewal to check the POH.. obviously!

Kingy

[Pilotage]

So what was the basis for issue of a permit on these aeroplanes? Was it....

BCAR Section K "Light Aeroplanes", which at K7-5(2.1) says "A Flight Manual, hereinafter referred to as "the Manual", shall be supplied with each aeroplane..."

JAR-VLA "Very Light Aeroplanes", which at VLA1581 says "A Flight Manual must be furnished with each aeroplane"

BCAR Section S "small light aeroplanes", which at S1581 says "A pilots handbook must be furnished with each aeroplane"

INterestingly I just did a search through the ANO and can't find any mention of flight manuals / POH in any context whatsoever.

I can see the point with some vintage aeroplanes that predate such things, but I'd have thought as a matter of commonsense and good practice PFA/CAA and owners clubs would have produced POH? What you say certainly to me is more than a little disturbing, are people really buying PFA aeroplanes, possibly single seaters, and flying them without any approved safety operating data ?

Looking at their websites, the BMAA's permit renewal form clearly requires the POH to be checked, but the leaflet on the PFA's website about permit renewal makes no mention of a manual. It does seem rather odd to me if the PFA's light aircraft are apparently being operated to a lower standard, in this respect at-least, than microlights are?

P

[Kingy]

The thing to think about here is that every plans built aircraft will be different so a generic POH would almost certainly be wrong.

To obtain a permit to test fly, weight and balance calculations must be carried out along with a final inspection by a PFA inspector (who needs to sign off work a you go also), but is is a Permit to TEST FLY. Five hours need to be completed before a permit to fly can be applied for. Handling notes are often written by the test pilot, but it is not mandatory to do so. The PFA is very strict about approving designs and a type would not be accepted without proper stress analysis being carried out. From this data figures like VNE are worked out and often these are lower than the EAA would accept for example.

I don't really understand why you think it is so dangerous not to have a POH. Do the figures recorded by a factory pilot in a brand new aeroplane often over forty years ago really relate today??

Me? in a new type (with POH or not), I take off, climb to a safe height, do some stalls, slow flight and steep turns and work out out my approach speed from that - 1.3vs works for me...;)

I respectfully suggest that stalling your aeroplane with you in it gives much better data to work on than some generic figures in a book - having no POH promotes this approach... not a bad thing.

Kingy

[Dale Harris]

The only flaw with your plan kingy, is that you appear to have quite some flying hours under your belt. I respectfully suggest that someone who does not have those hours, needs a starting point for those figures. That's why the manual is written and supplied by the major manufacturers. Nobody said it was necessarily dangerous, it's just safer and smarter really. Whether the a/c is 1 or 40 years old, as long as it has been maintained reasonably the figures in the manual will hold up pretty well, certainly in my experience anyhow.

[Pilotage]

Somebody a little while ago was kind enough to let me fly an X'Air, which is a BMAA homebuilt microlight. This example had a Jabiru engine, which I believe is a bit of a rarity on the type.

Looking through the manual (which was clearly approved by the BMAA) it consisted of a main bit with no performance figures or most of the limitations in it, and a couple of specific to aircraft annexes, including the engine manual, W&CG report, and a document from BMAA which listed the main handling points, performance data, instruments fitted - most of these were placarded as well.

Whilst I've enough hours in similar types that I could probably have flown it safely, it was a very useful document. I can't see it would be that hard to put something together, presumably in conjunction with the test pilot, on a particular aircraft - perhaps based upon a template of some description?

[Kingy]

Chaps,

I'm talking about PFA homebuilts here IE plans built or a new design by the builder. Kit build aircraft are a different matter as it is reasonable to expect the end result to be quite close to the original. Pilot notes are certainly available for popular Kitbuilts (Europa and RV's to name two).

Lets say I wrote handling notes for a unique single seat homebuilt, then sell it to someone who goes and bends it hurting themselves in the process - where would I stand legally? I don't know...

Dale:

Of course it is good to have a POH, just checking those book figures against 'your' aircraft may just save your @rse one day...

Kingy

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've cerified a few aeroplanes in the SEP class. If I may be forgiven the odd gross generalisation the job looks something like this...

- Preparing certification reports, 100+ hours
- Building an aeroplane, anywhere between 300-3000 hrs
- Flight testing, 1½-5 flying hrs for a simple series aeroplane, 25-50 hours for a new type or problem aeroplane, add in about 3 times that on top of the flying hours for preparation, planning, reporting, etc.
- Writing the Operating data, 10-40 hours with access to all the flight test reports.

So, the work of preparing a POH is fairly trivial in comparison to the rest of it. Given that in the UK at-least structural failure accidents are virtually unknown, whilst most accidents (including perhaps Pilotage's) are pilot-error related, a case could reasonably be made that the production (and use) of operating data should be done as rigorously as possible given that it's such a trivial part of the whole task.

As to liability, since there is already some agency (CAA/PFA) taking responsibility for approving the aircraft based upon Engineers' stuctural/certification reports, and finally approving the aircraft for Permit/CofA issue based upon the Test Pilots' reports, I'd have thought it perfectly reasonable for them then to approve a POH as-well.

G

[BlueRobin]

Hi Keef,

As yaknow, I learnt on a HR200 (it's Blue yaknow). Didn't see the Flight Manual until about 40 hours into the PPL. Wouldn't be suprised if some students never saw it before or after they passed. Not sure though what the demogrpahic is on those who have never seen a POH before. Our club locks it away in a filing cabinet. Is this typical?

Our DR221 (it's Red yaknow) doesn't have a CAA-approved Flight Manual, yet is exempted and still runs on a Priavte CofA. There is one in French, however that simply won't do. There is one DR221 in the country on a Public CofA , hence with CAA-approved FM. As luck would have it, the chap who flies the lives two minutes away from me, so I'm using that as a rough guide (only coz I assumed a FM is individual to each aircraft). :cool:

Perhaps an issue to put in GASIL?

[FlyingForFun]

My Europa's POH consists of about 2-dozen photocopied sheets of paper. Some are from Europa manuals and documents. Some are from Rotax, then engine manufacturer. Some were written by the aircraft builders and describe the peculiarities of the particular aircraft's fuel system, electrical system, etc. Lots of the pages are printed pages with hand-written notes scribbled onto them. There's also a weight+balance sheet.

Ok, so it's not as pretty as the manual which comes with a Public C of A aircraft. But I certainly wouldn't want to fly the aircraft without reading it. Knowing how the fuel system works enables me to bypass the main fuel filter if it becomes blocked in flight. If the alternator fails in flight, I'd like to know what the possible consequences are. These are all things which the aircraft builders are familiar with, but which the instructor who checked me out couldn't tell me because he didn't know that specific aircraft.

There doesn't need to be formal document. But there should certainly be some helpful notes somewhere, they should be made available to pilots, and pilots should be made to read them before flying the aircraft, IMHO.

FFF
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[gasax]

What a bunch of lawyers!

Or perhaps test pilots, as presumably you all fly your aircraft to within the one mph, one lb, 10 rpm, etc that many POH have determined.

If so you're far better pilots than I will ever be. I'm, more a 5 mph, 20 lb, 50 rpm sort of chap. And that variation simply means that even the best POH is a guide. What really needs to be understood is that you (and especially I) will never achieve the figures in the POH (especially if it is an American type).

As such maybe POH are actually not that valuable. My Emeraude had two photocopied pages in French, which even I could figure out (speeds, weights, distances). My Terrier has 30 odd pages but nothing on fuel consumption and the 'handling notes' are meaningless.

Thankfully these machines are incredibly tolerant and v ery simple - they have fewer variables than the GPS's they are fitted with so they really don't mind.

p.s. Even if you plan everything to the last decimal point how precise is your wind estimation?

[2Donkeys]

If we are talking G-Reg conventional Certificate of Airworthiness aircraft (as Keef originally was), the Flight Manual (which may go by the alias of an approved POH) is indeed part of the Certificate of Airworthiness. It will contain any supplements that might be appropriate to the aircraft's avionics fit, the authorised weight and balance data and the CAA approval stamp.

Yet despite all this, it is not a requirement to carry the book in the aircraft (as perhaps implied by Keef), except when there is a more general requirement to carry the Certificate of Airworthiness. Perhaps the most common set of circumstances for this would be when you take the aircraft abroad.

2Donkeys