Both hands on yoke on landing - bad practice?

[wheels up]

Hi all instructors

In my instructing days I used to insist that my students kept one hand on the throttle during the landing. This is the way I was taught to fly and always seemed prudent to me since if power is needed, for instance for a go around, your hand is already on the throttle.

I now fly larger twin turbo-prop aircraft and standard practice on landing is to land with both hands on the control collumn once power has been brought to idle. Of course the control forces are higher.

What do you instructors out their teach your students?? Do you think it is bad practice to land with both hands on the yoke??

[Tinstaafl]

In general one hand to control pitch & roll, the other to control power.

Circumstances aren't necessarily the same between piston & turbines though. Pistons have nearly instantaneous power available so a quick burst of power to cushion a slightly misjudged/ballooned landing is always an option.

Bit more difficult for a turbine due to the spool up time from idle.

Given the heavy controls you mention perhaps a two handed flare is a practical compromise between achieving a flare & poor engine response time?

[Basil]

Always been taught one hand on thrust levers. On jets you're going to be reaching for the reversers after touchdown.
A touch of nose up trim on short finals can help with a heavy control force in the flare. (usual warnings about float :O )

Of course, in unusual circumstances, it's up to the a/c commander how its played. e.g. both hands on pole and FO controlling speed etc.

[nike]

I prefer one on control column, the other on the power levers, as Basil said, the electric trim negates any heavy control forces - you just have to learn the trim rates.

the guys I fly with its prob about 50/50 tho.

One thing I have noticed is that those guys who fly with two hands on the stick seem to be busier, almost over correcting themselves- tank slapping in the flare.

Hard to say if one technique is better than the other.

I do like being able to feed in the fat straight away if needed. It feels like you are more in control - so maybe its just a state of mind??

[B2N2]

In most GA aircraft especially the singles I want them to fly with one hand only.
Easier to feel exactly what the plane is doing,with two hands they usually end up fighting the trim. Apart from the fact they'll have a hard time changing radio's, adjusting trim or anything else if the're used to "driving" with 2 hands. I usually show the "drivers" how the fly the plane rudder only, great exercise in coordination and control. Is usually a major eye-opener.
One plane I could not land singlehandedly was the Piper Seneca.
First time I tried it the yoke looked like it would break in two.
:D

[Checkboard]

Landing with both hands on the yoke? It's a bad practice, and probably arises from a misunderstanding of Category A aircraft take-offs, in which both hands are placed on the yoke for take-off.

On the take-off, once past the decision speed, both hands are placed on the yoke because: Take-off power is set, so you have enough power to "go", and guaranteed performance to do so. You no longer have the performance available to stop - so you remove your hand from the power levers to deliberately deny yourself this optionOn landing: The power is at an intermediate stage, so you need to have your hands on the power levers to reduce the power, and You have the performance to go-around at any time throughout the roundout and hold-offRemoving your hands from the power levers at any time throughout the landing unnecessarily denies you the go-around option (even at this very late stage.) Once you operate something with reverse thrust, you need your hand on the power levers for reverse in any case.

[moggie]

I would have thought that much depends upon who will be setting reverse thrust.

Once you have flared and brought thrustlevers/power levers/ throttles to idle you are committed, pretty much.

Once power is off, if the SOP for your company is for your colleague to select and operate reverse thrust (or Flight Eng if you have one), then there is no need for your hand to be there as well. Then, rather than have your spare hand float around, it is best placed upon the column.

If the SOP requires the handling pilot to select reverse thrust, then he has to keep his hands on the levers.

How often has anyone out there had to apply power and get airborne again after a normal flare (except for planned touch and go landings)? In 20 years, I have never done it.

[Youwererobbed]

Nearly all jets are landed with both hands on the yoke. Even on the airbus, the throttle (how English) hand should be removed on touch down. Maybe it's good practise to encourage this habit from day one.
One of the most common mistakes in training new pilots on jets is the tendancy to leave the hand where it is after touchdown, which could cause all sorts of problems in selecting reverse.
There are one or two airlines that operate slightly diff SOP but that is Boeing and Airbus recommended way of operating.

Trimming in flare...ummm..not sure about that.

[733driver]

Youwererobbed,

sorry, but i don´t think that´s correct. I fly a 737-300 for dba a British Airways subsidiary with regular flight ops audits by BA.

According to our SOPs the handling pilot certainly keeps one hand on the throttles throughout the landing and selects reverse thrust after main wheels touch.

All other 737 operators I know do it the same way.

As the handling pilot it will be much eaier for you to detect possible asymetrical reverse thrust and close the reversers if you handle both the rudderpedals AND the reversers.

As far as controll forces are concerned. I have found the pitch forces during flare very light on the 737 compared to some pistons I have flown. So no need for both hands on the controll collum if the aircraft is trimmed and loaded correctly.

I do agree though, that trim during flare is NOT a good thing to do. It might work in small planes, but it´s unacceptable in jet transports.

[Cough]

And just to prove that there are several ways of skinning a cat...

When the thrust lever is brought to idle, your hand will move to the control column allowing the other pilot to apply reverse thrust (non handling pilot).

(Big Air 737 driver...)

The way I see it, piston => leave hand there. Turbine => do whatever your SOPS tell you.

[moggie]

Nearly all jets are landed with both hands on the yoke. Even on the airbus, the throttle (how English) hand should be removed on touch down. Maybe it's good practise to encourage this habit from day one. One of the most common mistakes in training new pilots on jets is the tendancy to leave the hand where it is after touchdown, which could cause all sorts of problems in selecting reverse.

There are one or two airlines that operate slightly diff SOP but that is Boeing and Airbus recommended way of operating.

...................and just how do you get both hands on the column of an A320!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mukka]

Don't know about flying jets, but for teaching PPL students, if you're close to the ground (say below 200') then one hand on the throttle. This is so that you can adjust power quickly. On a single, if the a/c is in trim, it's a tiny force to flare the a/c.

Above 200', both hands on the control column. If you try to fly one hand on the control column, as soon as you relax, the a/c ends up in a turn (which is a disaster for instrument flying).

On the twins I've flown, they need a bit more of a heave to flare, but still possible with one hand. However if the a/c is out of trim, as with take off, two hands may be needed!

[greybeard]

I'm glad someone mentioned the A-320/330/340, really hard to put both hands there at any time.

For "coventional"?? controls, in large A/C most use two hands on rotation and early climbout as that will partially negate the one hand roll bias during large changes of pitch and acceleration, particularly in ifr/night or over hazy no horizon areas.

Landing is usaually at a stable speed and sink rate and can be done quite well one handed, the other for small power changes and the possibility of a late go-around even after touchdown or pulling reverse etc.
Even on the 777 which in most Airlines uses auto-thrust to touchdown, the hand of the PF is on the levers to accomodate the G/A situation.

Smaller A/C with smaller speed/pitch changes on T/off and throttles that need to be adjusted on climb out still usually have on hand on the lever.
Trying to find the right one to push/pull in a hurry in the dark with the speed going down, you going up and ideas out the window, I know where I prefer my hands to be.

SOPs need to be heeded, hopefully they have been thought out to cover ALL the possibilities.

C YA

:ok:

[Youwererobbed]

Forgot I posted on here!!

Guys I didn't say put both hands on the joy stick in an Airbus. Re-read my post. I said that the throttle hand should be removed from the thrust levers. Slightly different.

Having instructed on both Boeing and now Airbus one of the most common mistakes for pilots making the jump up to jets is leaving the hand on the throttles after touchdown.

Nothing needs to be done in a hurry in an aircraft, with the exceptions of RTO's and GPWS "pull ups". If you feel that you need to go around after closing the thrust levers (before reverse is actioned) then put your hands back on the thrust levers and push the TOGA button/put them in the TOGA gate!

As one of the few times that you have to react instantly is a GPWS, how about the guys that fly with their hands off the thrust levers below MSA? Looks like this is going to become compulsory in my airline and think it's a good idea.

[Aussie Andy]

On the take-off, once past the decision speed, both hands are placed on the yoke I was never 100% sure why, but I was taught to keep my on the throttle until at least 1000' for TKOFF - I think it was because that way I will notice when the examiner reaches for the throttle to do an EFATO, so I will notice it before he does it!

Andy ;)

[SeldomFixit]

For what it's worth - one of those old things you were taught very early and never forgot. Flying a "panel mount" throttle, leave the right hand on the control but grip it from UNDERNEATH.
The reason I was given for this was that with hand on top, thumps and bumps could cause you to bend the shaft, rendering it useless. I suppose to some extent I just accepted that at the time because it came from the gnarly old " he who must be obeyed " sitting next to me but on more occasions than I can remember now, I have remembered that advice as I've been thumped and bumped during a rough air approach. Works for me anyway.

[moggie]

I was never 100% sure why, but I was taught to keep my on the throttle until at least 1000' for TKOFF

You will find that this behaviour is strictly verboten on public transport aeroplanes. I do not know of 1 airline that does not have the pilots' hand off the thrust levers at V1.

There is an instinctive human reaction which will cause you to close thrust levers if an engine fails - after V1 this could be catastrophic!

It is a long running bug bear of mine that the FTO I work for (and most others) teach "hand on throttles until safely airborne" - this is nonsense. What are you going to do after V1 -retard throttles?? No way - so why place your hand there?

"It's in case the throttle vibrates closed" is the usual lame reply - but is that not what throtle friction is for?

Hands of throttles/thrust levers at V1 and off again after the flare. If your hand is not on them then it can't do something stupid with them!

[B2N2]

OK let's stick to GA planes here, after all it's the FI forum.
In some EU countries (like Germany) it seems common practice to fly with both hands on the yoke.
Fail to see the advantage here. Of all the people I've flown with that fly dual handed all off them had problems controlling the airplane.Not major catastrofic issues just flying straight & level climbs turns etc.
Single engine airplanes..the reason I want them to keep one hand on the throttle below 1000' is to prevent a pax messing with the engine controls in a critical phase of flight.(Has been known to happen)So not because it "might shake out".
:D :D

[moggie]

B2N2 - Don't bigger aeroplanes have FIs, too?

Seriously, I am against the idea of teaching prop/small aeroplane techniques to trainee pilots when jet/big aeroplane techniques work too.

I work at a well known FTO and most of our graduates go onto jets or turboprops with airlines. Surely we should aim to teach these people good habits that will ease their transition into the world of public transport aviation?

On MCC courses we have a huge struggle getting people to keep their hands on the thrust levers to V1 AND THEN TAKE THEM OFF because of the techniques that have become ingrained over the preceeding 12 months or so. Same goes for placing both hands on the yoke at landing.

I know that the discussion was about landing, but I do think it is part and parcel of the same issue.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Interesting comments.

However there is a vast difference between large jet transport aircraft and piston engine airplanes, especially multi engine piston airplanes.

I fly and teach that you use one hand on the control wheel and one hand on the throttle, throttles.

Anyone that uses the argument that you need two hands to rotate or flare a properly trimmed airplane is doing something wrong.

When I train and issue type ratings on the PBY Catalina I insist that the pilot flying have his hand on the power levers during critical stages of the flight.

Anyone who argues that it is to difficult to fly an airplane with one hand must be flying something I have never been in before.
The CAt is flat out the heaviest handling airplane that I have ever flown and it can be safely and accurately flown with one hand.

A great many piston twins can be assemetric thrust critical at low airspeeds, the pilot flying will quickly sense and react to yaw departures, as long as he has his hand on the power levers.

The pilot not flying guards and makes any needed adjustments to insure the required power remains set .

By the way SOP's on jets are just that SOP's and must be adhered to.

Anyone who feels that they are to stupid to learn a different method of flying once they cross over into jet transports should maybe stay out of them.

By the way in the Bus you could hold the side controller with both hands, but it would sure look strange. :O

And one last comment, an engine failure on the Bus at V1 and an engine failure on a piston engine twin such as the Cat will give you two entirely different assymetric control results.

In the Bus you go.

In the Cat you go.... like yawed into the dead engine. So you had better be ready to use throttles if needed to stay alive.

Chuck.

[Sensible]

Why two hands? Just three fingers of one hand is enough to fly a single engine even in moderate turbulence. two hands is a sure fire way of losing "feel" for the airplane resulting in poor handling! also, flying with one hand leaves my right hand free to rest on my right knee to reassure myself that all is well :D :D

[cirrus32]

I've found it very difficult to flare a c170 without both hands on the yoke. It is a very heavy elevator on flare even when trimmed for approach, and you want the yoke right back in a taildragger doing a 3 point landing. Plus I'm a 110 lb female so haven't quite got the muscle strength of a bigger male.

[pilotbear]

I too always teach to fly with one hand. Only then can you feel what the aeroplane is telling you. If I have to I make people sit on the other hand.
If the aeroplane is trimmed correctly, (and trimming is a continuous, monitored in flight action, not just set once and leave it) then the aeroplane is very easy and light to fly no matter how large it is.
I try to get people to trim right to VAT then you can really feel the effects of any pitch inputs still with one hand. And yes I feel one hand on the throttle (unless it is on the trimmer) is good from start of final approach. This has to be right as the approach is a continous harmonisation of elevator/throttle/trim.

There are one or two exceptions in the flare like the Seneca, but you can trim to touchdown. The only drawback then is if you have a late go-around you could have a pitch up excess to deal with.:ok:

[FormationFlyer]

pilotbear So often you seem to get to my answer before me :ok:

[MAXX]

i agree with you wheels up its is vital to teach young students the importance of one hand on controls and other on the power,weather its a small single or larger turboprop or jet.

with regard to extra trim forces on the heavier aircraft ,dont we use a trim wheel or electric trim to contaract these forces?

[Kermit 180]

I agree defintely with the 'one hand on the wheel or stick and the other on the throttle' camp. You never know when some :mad: idiot is going to try to line up or cross the runway in front of you as you enter the flare. I do sympathise with our 110 lb friend 3-pointing the C170, but as i teach my students in the C180, you have got to learn to do it with one arm. The pilot must also be ready and able to conduct a go-around with full flap, which in the 180 means very large pitch changes and heavy elevator control forces. Even careful trimming on final to help reduce the pitch changes in the event of a go-around, does not entirely solve the problem of large pitch changes. So, if you're not sure about what to do, I recommend using one arm on the wheel or stick.

Cheers,

Kerms

[Halfbaked_Boy]

The aeroplane I fly (a Robin HR200) has a control 'column' literally, so you have no choice but to keep one hand on the throttle! :)

I guess the same procedure applies if you are flying the Airbus too :)