Descent in RVA for military aircraft

[Eric T Cartman]

If an en-route military aircraft asked for a RAS or RIS descent to get VMC below, would you use the RVA to get him lower than the MSA, if he was not visual @ the MSA ?


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Growing old is for cissies !
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[1261]

You can only get RAS/RIS outside controlled airspace. If (from your handle) we assume that you are in Scotland somewhere, you should bear in mind that the only radar unit outside controlled airspace is Prestwick (I know that there's Scottish but they're not going to offer the type of service you're asking for). Therefore, at any other Scottish radar unit, descent in the RVA is going be under RCS.

The only "official" way to get below a layer of cloud would be to use the RVA (assuming that this offers lower levels for vectoring than SSA). If the minimum level in the RVA is not low enough the best thing to do (in my opinion) is to make an instrument approach to one of our runways (SRA, beacon or ILS) and then break off when VMC below.

Of course "unofficially", if you've been identified, validated and verified then we could just vector you out over the water - but I'm sure that most military crews would be more than capable of doing that themselves without our interference!

:)

[Spitoon]

Only in the final approach area and only if the MATS Pt 2 says so.

Next question please, Mr Examiner!

[FDMS]

MATS Pt.1& A.I.P : RVA = "A defined area in the vicinity of an aerodrome, in which the minimum safe levels allocated by a radar controller vectoring IFR flights have been predetermied".

It does not specify that the aircraft has to be landing at the airfield, so why can you not use the safe altitude for anyone on a RAS transitting the area, with a warning of the MSA when they leave it ?

[2 sheds]

FDMS

Exactly!

[Eric T Cartman]

I'm with FDMS on this.
Ok spitoon, I'm wearing my examiner's hat - on what do you base your reply ? ;-)




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"growing old is for cissies !
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[BEXIL160]

Err... It's a while since I dabbled in this sort of ATC but... the Radar Vectoring "Keyhole" is still available for use, RVA or not. (see the MATS Pt1)

Briefly:
Within 30 miles of the RADAR antenna associated with the unit providing the service:

Provide 1000ft above the highest fixed obstacle within
(a) 5miles of the aircraft
and (b) 15miles ahead and 20 degrees either side of the aircrafts track.

This can be reduced further if there IS an RVA.

Not practical I hear you say? Well, I used to use it quite effectively (and safely) for exactly the sort of thing this topic is about.

Rgds BEX

[Spitoon]

Eric, I assumed this was what you were getting at - MATS Pt 1 SI 2/2000.

[055166k]

Be careful chaps! Ask yourself what the base of your cover is, and whether there might be something that your descending traffic is descending into. Exactly how low are you going to go with such a questionable procedure? The best advice is not to be pressured into giving any kind of service which may be hard to justify in the event of a nasty.

[Go-arounder]

I work at an airfield ‘officially’ in the Scottish FIR and use all these methods, MSA, keyhole, RVA and subject to traffic ILS/SRA/VOR approaches daily to get military aircraft low level and in to the low fly routes.
We at present do not have a RVA which is totally inside CAS so officially you could be given decent on a RAS inside the RVA, you wouldn’t be getting a radar decent i.e. assigned levels under a RIS though.
:)

[Eric T Cartman]

SI 2/2000 covers descent within the final approach area , not outside it but still in the RVA .
So, as 1261 mentioned Prestwick , let's try an example there & see what we come up with ! ;)

1) MSA=3800ft. to SW, 3900ft to NW; RVA Chart Min.Initial Altitude in Western Sector (i.e. over Firth of Clyde= 2000ft. , Cloud = Overcast 2500ft. ; Radar coverage is down to sea level within the RVA

2) A fast pointy job at 5000ft requests RAS to descend VMC below, tracking north-west from Turnberry over the sea.

3) What would YOU do ? [ take a break is not an acceptable answer btw ;) ]

[Chilli Monster]

Two options

1) Descend inside the RVA to minimum available level, turning him if necessary to keep him inside. Provide a RAS down to unit specified lowest level for RAS, then downgrade to RIS below that - telling him why. If VMC at minimum level give him the RPS and tell him to report going en-rte, Terminating radar service at the same time.

2) If he's not VMC by the minimum RVA level then offer him an SRA (or any other approach) to get him VMC below.

This is all subject to him accepting vectors to stay within the RVA. If he won't then you terminate radar service when he leaves the RVA below MSA, again telling him why. If he won't accept the help offered within the rules then he does his own thing - and he stays fully responsible for his own terrain clearance.

[rodan]

Chilli Monster seems to have it quite simple, in black and white, I do it quite often.

- and he stays fully responsible for his own terrain clearance

Yeah, and try getting that on the tapes, as I believe is probably wise in this post 'F-15 Court Martial' world, and hear the huffy tone of the reply 9 times out of 10.

[Spitoon]

I think CM is pretty much spot on.

Given that you're not going to allow a break, I'd drop the aircraft to MSA, offer further to the RVA level if it's within the RVA and pointed toward the airfield - always thinking about what to do if it doesn't go visual at the RVA level. Finally I'd offer an SRA to get VMC below.

Option 2 - hand it over to mil.

That's all assuming that the pilot will follow the rules that I work by (civvie). If he won't, I'll give him a RIS or whatever down to MSA while he's on his own navigation amd ask his intentions.

[Eric T Cartman]

Thanks for the replies.
CM has confirmed what I thought & what I do.
I agree 100% with rodan about getting it taped, so there is no doubt that the pilot knows he is responsible for terrain clearance when the service is terminated. Tough luck if he's grumpy - if the wheels come off, the only person guaranteed to be standing before twelve good men & true is YOU !!

@ spitoon, re yr item 2): I'd prefer to let the mil look after their own but Scot Mil disavow all knowledge below 6000 ft whatever radar service their chaps want !!

[A I]

1261

Are you sure that EGPK is the only unit operating outside "controlled" airspace? What about EGQL, EGQK etc? I guess given my long abscence from North of the border thing have changed up in the Northern Isles. I also seem to think that EGPD give a bit of a service outside. We also used to do it at Buchan.

AI

[055166k]

I hope you chaps. who are displaying the very best traditions of our service, will accept a cautionary note and think this through. If the pilot is to be responsible for his own terrain clearance then he must know where he is and where he will be next. In this case there is no need to put your head on a block. There are several logical options: firstly you could state that the requested procedure is not available but a published approach procedure followed by a visual is; that may be a little too blunt for some and so another option is merely to state "no traffic observed on radar to affect your descent, descent is at your discretion" or a selection of similar words that you consider appropriate. By the way, I am surprised that this is not covered in the MATS 2 for your unit.........I recommend you cover yourself by getting something in there!

[1261]

I think the question was addressed to civil controllers; and I'm fairly sure that only PK has an RVA which is outside controlled airspace.