"Clear (Prop)" ?

[paulo]

Is this an anachromism from flying days lost, or a vital part of airmanship?

I do it, but do kinda feel like like I'm one short of checking there's a man with a red flag...

[Fujiflyer]

None of my instructors (PPL / IMC) nor any other pilots I have flown with did so. As a student PPL when I suggested I would do it, it was greeted with a general lack of interest.

Nowadays I don't bother but what I do make sure of is that I have a thoroughly good look around the aircraft before cranking the engine - not a quick glance but a good few seconds proper scan. IMHO, this has got to be much better than a call that may not be heard anyway.

FF

[AerBabe]

All the instructors I've flown with have called 'Clear Prop', but I've often wondered how effective it is. In the C152 and Chippy it's fairly easy to stick my head out and yell... but in the Cherokee I'm sure no-one would hear me. Some people shout and immediately start the engine. At least you would know what killed you I suppose... :rolleyes:

[Airbedane]

For most starts, I call it before starting, as well as having a good look round. My Club SOP is to look only, this is my only exception, but I still call in the Club aircraft when away from Base - our ASP is well sanitised, but you never know at other airfields, and especially on farm strips).

Call it belt and braces if you like, but if it prevents just one person from being hit with a prop, then it's worthwhile.

I remember some years ago at Gloucester, I overheard a C150 instructor ridiculing his student, telling him it was Naff to call 'Clear Prop' and it made the both of them look stupid. He added that real pilots didn't do it as they didn't need to.

I think all the instructor achieved that day was wanton destruction of good airmanship. I took great delight, some 30 mins later when I was starting a Spitfire as the pair were walking back to their machine. The look on the instructors face was a real picture, when he heard a loud: 'Clear Prop' just before the Merlin coughed into life...........

Before starting, have a good look, call a good loud: 'clear prop', then hit the starter in the knowledge that you have done everything possible to prevent someone being hit by your prop - you know it makes sense.

A

[A and C]

A lot of what I see that is dressed up as airmanship these days is just folk lore ( IE dont lean below 3000 ft , turn your Cessna dead into wind before doing the runup ) but a loud shout of "clear prop" is an important safety item.

Apart from keeping people clear of the prop in these days when the dependants of a victim will rush to court on the flimsyest evidence not shouting "clear prop" may well be used to show that you did not take enough care to make sure the area was clear when starting the engine.

[Hilico]

Helicopters always turn on their flashing lights before starting up, which strikes me as a brilliant idea for their fixed-wing poor relations.

[stiknruda]

Only time I don't do it is if the 'drome or strip is deserted OR I'm hand-swinging:)

Stik

[Whirlybird]

For both f/w and rotary aircraft I look out, switch on any lights and strobes that exist AND ALSO call "Clear" (I dispense with the "prop" since helicopters don't have one). It might not do any good, but it might, and it certainly can't do any harm. If it saves one life someday...

What's the problem; is it that you're all being terribly English and reserved and don't like yelling?

[Andy_R]

Whirly

I do believe you have hit the nail on the head. I always yell "clear prop" at the top of my voice, but I will admit to feeling pretty stupid. But if it does stop just one accident then surely it has to be worthwhile.

And as A&C points out, in these days of the litigation happy, it may just help your case if the worst were to occur.

[aiglon]

Many (too many) years ago, I routinely called "clear prop" because that is what I had been taught to do. One day, I called clear prop and was just about to press the starter and a small child appeared from in front of the nose of the aircraft :eek: . I have no idea whether or not he had heard my call - or even understood what was about to happen - but I had not seen him approach and it drove home to me that you cannot take anything for granted, least of all that there is not someone about to walk across in front of your aircraft as you start up.

I still call "clear prop" before starting but now I do it not because I have been told to but because I know it is a valuable safety feature.

Aiglon

[Warped Factor]

I'm a confirmed shouter of "clear prop", what have you got to lose?

What does interest me though is the number of times I hear "clear prop" shouted and then a millisecond later the engine is started.

What's the point of shouting it if you don't actually give anyone in the vicinity the time to get out of the way?

WF.

[Perfect PFL]

I was taught to fly on a UAS. When we went to the aircraft a member of ground crew would come out with you and stand on the wing tip (to remove chocks if it was windy, marshall if needed, etc).

We would shout "clear prop", and which the ground crew member would take a look around, especially behind you, where you can't see, and then answer with "prop clear". Until he replied, you wouldn't hit the starter button.

Following on from this teaching I have always called "clear prop" before starting the engine. I take a good look around first, and know noone is near the prop, but I think of it more as meaning "I'm about to start the engine, so if you're standing directly behind me and don't realise this you're about to get a sudden rush of wind towards you".

But, as I have said in a couple of other threads, I still do my PPL flying at an RAF airfield, and, from what I've seen, everyone else calls "clear prop" as well, and the instructors teach the students to do so.

[Keef]

Why would anyone NOT shout clear prop!?

It doesn't cost anything (rare in aviation);

It's pretty widely recognised as best practice;

It might be a good defence if the unthinkable happens;

Only bar flyers say it shouldn't be done.


Maybe I should get some stickies printed saying "Real pilots shout clear prop"

[High Wing Drifter]

Considering my inexperience, I am quite happy to follow all generally accepted advice regarding Airmanship.

I imagine it does not pay to think too deeply about these things. I guess so long as I do what I am trained to do, the real reason why will become apparent one day - probably at about the same time as I am thankful that I did it (as expressed by aiglon).

[jonnys]

Well said Keef!

Why on earth wouldn't you shout 'clear prop'? I know I would be more inclined to think of a pilot who didn't bother as lazy and swaying too far towards being unsafe...

It takes a second and may save a life. Never mind about court cases blah blah, it's just common sense if you ask me (you might've guessed I feel pretty strongly about this kind of thing!!)

And if you don't do it because you're afraid it will 'affect your image'...well, what can I say about that?!

[dmjw01]

Personally, I never call "clear prop" because the people who really need to understand the call are any Joe Public's who happen to be near your aircraft. We all know what it means, but the phrase "clear prop" may not actually make any sense to a layman who might just stand still wondering "what did that mean?". Many people wouldn't immediately realise that the word "prop" is short for "propeller".

Instead, I call "stand clear" in a loud voice. Nobody can fail to understand that, surely?

[QDMQDMQDM]

If you yell 'clear prop!' at the top of your voice, you see everyone in a 30 yard radius look round. There's no way that can be bad.

Image schmimage.

QDM

[18greens]

Totally agree with warped factor.

I think you should call clear prop clearly and loudly then wait at least a couple of seconds for any reply. I don't feel at all embarassed and indeed I relish it. (The passengers love it too)

The instructors who poo poo it may work at airfield with good security where members of the public are not wandering around.
However anything could have got near the prop as you start. Remember you have been heads down for a significant time before starting and an engineer or a small child could have got in the way. Anything that reduces the chance of that prop hitting anything has to be good.

It also warns people behind you that a big wind is about to hit them. A couple of second gap may be enough for them to prevent being knocked over.

Long may it last.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Like Keef and others have said - why not just do it? And in the Chippy (and other sliding canopy or open types), you can augment it with a visual signal; canopy open, right arm held up vertical, forefinger pointing to the sky, twirl forefinger round a few times while shouting 'CLEAR PROP!!'

SSD

[On Track]

Was taught to do it on my first flying lesson and have done it ever since.

A few times I've got quite angry when, while doing my preflight inspection, nearby aircraft have started up without any warning.

Pilots who conduct their operations in such a manner are (at the very least) discourteous, and (in the worst case) a safety hazard.

A bit of airmanship never hurt anyone.

[hungry_flygal]

I reckon it couldn't hurt - i guess i'd always yell something - even though our hanger is in a quiet part of the a/d and the only people around are the other people in my course - Prob end up yelling clear prop when it's just us around and something else when we take friends for a ride .... seen pax have absolutely no reaction to "clear prop" :sad: in fact - they prob turn towards the sound :uhoh:

[Firkin L]

I had a close one a few years back. I was sat in a Chippy waiting to tow the next glider, before starting shouted 'clear prop' at which point a couple of people shouted 'stop!' and quickly dragged a dog away that had decided to sit in front of the prop in my blind spot - it could have been a child. Anyone who fails to ensure its clear or issue a warning before starting is in my opinion acting dangerously.

[bandit54]

how about a recorded message played through an external speaker similar to the ones fitted on lorrys

instead of "WARNING VEHICLE REVERSING"

"CLEAR PROP ENGINE STARTING"

would only weigh a few pounds and could be fitted in the starter circuit so it is played every time

[camaro]

Spot on, Keef!

Have always opened the window or DV panel (if possible) and yelled "Clear Prop!" at the top of my voice - and frequently deafen passngers when I forget to move the headset mike!:O

It's standard practice at Netherthorpe.....any of the EGNF pilots who didn't would probably be shot at dawn or something equally nasty by the instructors!;)

[WingCommanderBenson]

Hi,
Personally i just think it is good airmanship to shout 'Clear Prop' (if not clear prop at least shout something out) then if anything happens at least you can say that you gave a warning

[stiknruda]

Bandit 54 - you are joking, aren't you?

Stik

[eyeinthesky]

Just another vote in favour of shouting. It gets everyone's attention even if the actual words might not be recognised.

But also a point about the use of anticollision lights. Of course they are a good idea: anything to increase awareness of others that this aircraft is about to start engines. Indeed, it is SOP for most commercial operations that ground crew will not approach the aircraft whilst the anti-colls are on, even if the engines are stopped (see story below).

However, I am stunned at how many times I see people who have just refuelled and are parked right next to the pumps go through their prestart checks and switch on the wing strobes (not selectable apart from the tail beacon on some Cherokees, for example.) It seems like a very bad idea to me to have a high ampage charge of electricity going off not three feet away from a fuel pump. Any sparks or vapour leakage and the world will get quite warm. Leave them off, shout 'Clear prop' and switch them on once you have moved away from the pumps.

Reference anti colls:

There is a story, maybe true, of a trip by HRH Prince Charles to an oil rig in the North Sea. I understand that is common practice for helicopters there to leave rotors running while they unload, and the clue to the deck crew that it is safe to approach the aircraft is the switching off of the anti-collision beacon.

Anyway, the day arrived, everyone was keen to ensure the visit of HRH went smoothly, and the Deck Landing Officer (or whatever he's called) was anxious that HRH should not be delayed exiting the aircraft. The helicopter arrived, and sat on the pad with engines winding down, but the anticoll still on. After trying to get the attention of the pilot, the exasperated deck officer eventually called up on the rig frequency:

"Turn your F***ing beacon off, you F***wit so I can approach the F***ing aircraft!!"

At which point the pilot removed his helmet to reveal: HRH:D :oh:

[Aussie Andy]

I just like shouting, and this is one of the few legitimate chances I get to do so :8!

I agree as has been said above, why not do it? It might just make someone who's approached through your blind spot notice what's going on. I've often noticed other people adjacent to me on the ramp shout it and it has just reminded me to stay clear as I do my walk-around. Harmless at worst, safety enhancing at best.

I noticed that the practice in Australia (and by the sounds of it with some here) is also to turn on strobes or other lights prior to engine starts... makes sense I guess, but for some reason our club SOPs don't call for this until after engine-run up and vital actions etc. when "ready for departure".

Andy

[rustle]

"ClearProp" - we liked the idea so much we bought the company ;) (Check G-INFO if you what to see what I mean)

Always yell clear prop when starting.

Always flashing beacon / anti-coll lights on before starting.

Anything to attract attention to a potentially dangerous, soon-to-be-rotating propellor.

I remember when I did my MEP training I was told loads of reasons why you shoud start port-side first, ranging from the absurd ("we always do, and its the way I was taught" :rolleyes: ), to the ridiculous ("the battery is on the LHS so the wires are shorter")

Maybe the real reason is because you can (generally) see very clearly who/what is around the port-side engine(s) so starting them first may alert someone who is sleeping near the RHS ones (which are less easily seen from P1 seat) to move out of the way...

[fireflybob]

eyeinthesky, totally agree with your comments concerning use of strobe lights near fuel installations but should one be starting engines in close proximity to such installations? I think starting is a high risk time for engine fire - better to push away from pumps before starting?

Re calling Clear Prop - cannot really think of any sensible reason why not! We also have liability to think off - just think of the lawyers having a field day if you don't give an aural warning and you injure/kill someone during start up.

[Wunper]

It could be construed as hijacking the thread

On the subject of props and emergency shutdowns whilst on the ground has anyone timed how long it takes for their prop to stop ?

1. Using the ICO

2. Using the Mags alone

Using the ICO on the Lycomings I fly behind it takes a pregnant 4 to 5 seconds before the prop is stationary.

In the nightmare scenario of Children/Dogs deaf people etc getting in your path whilst taxiing in at a fly in for example, how quickly could you make your machine safe?

Turboprops need not reply!

Wunper

[AC-DC]

paulo

Sometime ago I walked from the hangar to my aircraft passing near some other stationary aircraft, suddenly a ‘Clear prop’ was shouted, it came from my 11 O’clock and 3m away. It did attract my attention. Years ago I have helped to vacate a guy who went through the prop of a C-206, the docs. Did a great job on him, he ‘only’ lost 6” of his right arm, I don’t know if the hand functions.

SHOUT as loud as you can!

[MLS-12D]

Now this 'debate' is simply silly. There is no reason at all for not shouting a warning, and at least several reasons why it should always be done (even when you KNOW that you are absolutely alone on an empty airstrip. It's kind of like saluting when crossing the deserted brow of a ship in the middle of the night ... a good habit to get into).

I do not feel at all self-concious about shouting "clear prop!" ("stand clear!" also makes sense to me, dmjw01). No one has ever made fun of me for this, but if they do I will just hand them my business card and say "keep this for reference when you get sued for killing someone: which will happen, sooner or later". :uhoh:

[woodey]

I have often thought "stand clear" would make more sense than "clear prop" as stated by dmjw01. I always shout and have never flown with an instructor who doesn't do so or would allow me not to!
Woodey

[GroundBound]

I do it every time.

However, I never hear others doing it, and there are often people walking about the apron, betweeen closly parked aircraft to get to/from their mounts. Several times I have been walking towards my aircraft, and suddenly an aircraft just abeam of me starts up and makes me jump.

I always get funny (startled) looks when I do it, but I won't let that stop me.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Another vote in favour of shouting. I was taught to do it on day one and it has never even occurred to me not to (even on an allegedley deserted field).

I normally warn passengers in the Archer before screaming through the little air vent - it tends to echo around the cockpit for a while! No such probs in the Cessna.

Tall Guy.

[Negative Charlie]

When flying with an instructor in New Zealand recently I was asked (politely, but firmly) not to shout "Clear Prop" before starting as the instructor had flown with another Brit the week before and the shout scared the life out of him. I've had this odd behaviour confirmed by other pilots in NZ, but nobody could explain why. Perhaps sheep don't wander into spinning props?

[grow45]

I'm another in the always shout "Clear Prop" camp but it reminds me of the story of the instructor in California who being lazy shortened it and taught his students to shout "Clear" only but without really explaining to them the reason for shouting and was surprised on a rare non CAVOK day when a student shouted "Cloudy".

grow45

[Final 3 Greens]

Negative Charlie

Just because an instructor says something doesn't mean it is necessarily good airmanship.

An instructor in the US once asked me to change tanks when we were positioning for departure on the runway following a full stop during a circuit detail. We could have stopped at the run up area, but this guy didn't see the need for another power check.

I gave him some pretty polite but firm feedback about that.

If an instructor asked me not to shout clear prop, we would be having a discussion about why (becuase I don't have the monopoly on knowledge and there might be a good reason), but if I wasn't satisfied I be thinking quite seriously whether I wanted to fly with the guy/gal.

[Negative Charlie]

F3G,

I couldn't agree with you more. I don't have any first hand experience, but I'm pretty sure that instructors put their trousers on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

In this case I took the instructor's opinion into consideration, shouted "Clear Prop" loud enough to wake the dead, then apologised for having disturbed him. No point in letting these colonials get away with lowering standards, what?

[Icarus Wings]

On more than one occasion, after shouting "clear Prop" i have had people walk over to my aircraft to see what all the shouting is about. I'm not saying you shouldnt shout but make sure you are looking aswell.

[Final 3 Greens]

NC

Nice one :O

[BlipOnTheRadar]

I'm another one for the "Clear Prop" call. If anyone I'm flying with doesn't like it... tough! I'd rather have an upset passenger than a dead pedestrian.

I spent about nine months in California, flying, where aviation really is open to anyone.. a little too open if you ask me. There was absolutely nothing to stop Joe Public wandering onto the GA ramp. I don't want to dumb down Joe Public, but they don't seem to realise that a five foot disc of spinning metal can do considerable damage. A rather loud "Clear Prop" seems to get their attention, not least because it has a "quaint" British accent :p

Incidentally calling "Clear Prop" is fine if you have a prop... but what do you call if you have a turbine of some description? It can be quite hazardous at both ends of a Jet Provost, for example.

Keep it safe ;)

BlipOnTheRadar

[Kingy]

I'm definitely in the yelling 'clear prop' camp but I have a question too - what if the engine does not fire first time? do you yell every time the starter button is pressed or not...? I try to, but I've been prone to forget after the eighth or ninth try...!

Kingy

[Circuit Basher]

Another for the 'Clear Prop' camp - always do it myself just to indicate to people out of my view that something's about to happen (hopefully!).

And Kingy - a little bit of discretion is fine. If you're struggling to get the old suck-push-bang-blow sequence right, with 4 or 5 successive attempts within a short space of time, you can probably take it that Joe Public in the vicinity would have seen the shredding machine on the move. If there's then a minute or two's pause, I'd suggest another Clear Prop call would be advisable before trying again.

On the A/C Beacon front, I always aim to get it turning and burning a minute or two before start. Occasional exception is that on a cold frosty morning (having thoroughly de-iced!!) where the battery may be a bit low on 'oomph'. On a Cessna, I would also omit flap lowering checks for similar reasons (although would lower / raise them once the donk's throbbing).

[sean1]

My 'Before Start' checklist includes "Clear Prop!".Basically as it makes good sence in the intrests of safety and airmanship.

[On Track]

Clearly, most of the people posting on this thread believe the pilot should shout some kind of warning.

If you think Joe Public doesn't understand the meaning of "Clear prop" then try this one which I recently heard: "Stand clear, engine starting!"

As others have pointed out, the pilot still has an obligation to check that the area around the aircraft REALLY IS clear before engaging the starter.