Heathrow get what they deserve [Archive]

A I

13th Apr 2003, 04:27

My first instinct is that this has got to be a wind up. As it isn't on the NATS forum (who nobody seems to use these days) I must reply here.

If true then it spells the end of Prospect. There is no way they can negotiate any bonus for the poor overworked Heathrow Tower controllers (it surely cannot apply to the guys in TC who do APP for EGLL) without anybody hearing about it until we have a fait accompli.

In fact my second, third and fourth instincts are also that this is a wind up.

Tell me I'm right please!!

AI

5milesbaby

13th Apr 2003, 04:44

I fully agree with you and 100% hope this is a wind-up, otherwise the company has just screwed itself into the ground.....

Jerricho

13th Apr 2003, 17:41

Over in the tower yesterday on a practice "TC Evac", and I have to say, morale over there was incredible. Maybe Prospect have played their cards very close to their chest, and may be more to come. :ok:

Nogbad the Bad

13th Apr 2003, 20:55

It HAS to be a wind up !!

ATCO Two

13th Apr 2003, 20:58

Why doesn't someone post the contents of the letter on the NATS forum? Is the GM at Heathrow happy about getting paid less than the ATCOs?

Gonzo

13th Apr 2003, 22:07

It's a wind up.

ATCO Two

13th Apr 2003, 22:35

Well there is always some element of the truth in any rumour - however wild it may seem!

Wet Flaps

14th Apr 2003, 00:47

My missus is an ATCO at a big unit in Middlesex and she brought the memo home yesterday. It's there in black and white, although it doesn't mention an amount.

PPRuNe Radar

14th Apr 2003, 00:49

I thought the plan was to make it an ATCO 3 unit ??? ;) :p :D

1261

14th Apr 2003, 00:52

Assuming that this is not a wind-up.....

NATS has always faced a serious problem in recruiting/keeping people at LL and I for one won't get too upset at the company for offering those working the tower there a few extra pennies to help out. £15k is pocket money in the south-east, ATCO 2s at CC will still enjoy a far higher standard of living (not to mention keeping their radar tickets for the foreseeable future).

My worry is that this is yet another example of how a centralized pay structure simply doesn't work in NATS today (and I am a beneficiary of that structure, before somebody points that out) and its days must surely now be numbered. I can't help but think that those of us that work at regional airports will get well and truly stiffed when that happens - maybe Serco don't sound too bad after all!

PPRuNe Radar

14th Apr 2003, 01:02

Whilst we await the facts in this saga, the initial impression I have is that it is opening a Pandoras Box if true.

Quite a few Prospect Branch Policy documents will be getting a good read by many people over the coming days. Branch Policy tends to go against agreements which are devolved and devisive. This pay award may fly in the face of that unless part of a nationally agreed deal.

Don't Look Now

14th Apr 2003, 02:09

I won't be going back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still trying to decide whether to take the boat out on the lake or put my skiis on.
J:ok:

niknak

14th Apr 2003, 03:15

So thats £9000 after tax, (assuming the Heathrow bods are taxed at 40%), I don't know if N.I is payable on that amount, but assuming it isnt, it's the equivilant of an extra £750 after tax per month for 12 months only.
I assume that there is a clause which means the recipient must repay the full amount if they leave within a specified time scale (for reasons other than medical retirement or a posting).
Although it's not an amount to be sniffed at, putting things into perspective, I'd rather be where I am thank you.

Nogbad the Bad

14th Apr 2003, 03:31

Presumably the same is going to apply to those "over the road" where staff numbers are just as bad as Heathrow, and staff are still leaving ??

Or does NATS intend to sh*t all over LTCC staff AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is to say IF it's true ! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

justlooking

14th Apr 2003, 04:51

This strikes me as a very poor attempt to split the union. If there is a memo then lets see the text on this site.

That said I'd still like to be able to buy a large house NEAR work and have the standard of living that ATCOs at say EGCC or EGPF can enjoy than have to travel 40-50 miles to and from work just to be able to afford such luxury, and then battle the M25 and M4 etc etc like some of us have to.

The sooner NATS realise that we should all be able to enjoy the same standard of living wherever we are posted and pay accordingly the better. If that means massive increases for those posted to high property cost units then so be it.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if there is a thread of truth to this and if the figure ended up at £25K per year or more we would still not see a mass of our colleagues from the north banging on the door of Heathrow Tower begging to be let in!!!

Airline Tycoon

14th Apr 2003, 06:12

HOOK, LINE AND SINKER!!!!!

Bombay Bad Boy

14th Apr 2003, 15:31

Do you deserve an extra £15K ? ..............Absolutely !!!

I've gotta say, I'm much happier to have my sub-30min commute and be using my ADC & APC tickets.

There is often a price to pay for being at the busiest unit for you boys/girls, namely :

1) Grey hair sooner
2) Shorter life span (see Doc CAAmed/Health/lhr/SJ/1999/022)
3) Contraction of "Married to the job syndrome"

Lastly, as I sit in my 4bed, double garaged detached house in the cotswolds. I have two dilema's :

a) Will the Hottub go in the new conversatory being built next month or shall I purchase a special Pine outhouse to put in my large garden ?

b) Which one of three cars should I take to work today? If the sun comes out then definately the roadster !!

Maybe life as an ATCO3 isnt that bad after all.
GOOD LUCK LHR YOU DESERVE EVERY PENNY ;) ;)

Bigears

14th Apr 2003, 16:37

Justlooking: The sooner NATS realise that we should all be able to enjoy the same standard of living wherever we are posted and pay accordingly the better. If that means massive increases for those posted to high property cost units then so be it.
What makes you think that the outcome won't be massive decreases in pay for the (currently) higher standard of living units?
As a business, that would be preferable :eek:

Jerricho

14th Apr 2003, 18:43

Hey......

Did you hear the one about the EGLL Tower ATCO who had one too many alco-pops one night and posted a thread on a RUMOUR forum, and achieved what he was trying to do?

Attempt to split the Union.....hmmmmmmm. That's nearly as good!

(BTW, don't shoot the messenger here, 'cause I didn't start this)

Yellow Snow

14th Apr 2003, 19:59

Right,

1. Heathrow Atco's do not drink alco-pops (apart from Butters).

2. I ask any ATCO 3 or ATCO 2 based at EGCC and at Scottish to come on here explain why Heathrow, TC, Swanwick and maybe Gatwick (depending on whether BA move the entire operation to Terminal 4) should not get a substantial pay increase over the other units. And before Manch and Scottish start moaning, At Manch you keep and use your Radar and Tower tickets and in the rest of the company the latter is known as the SCATC holiday camp:cool: , it's just a matter of time before senior management find out.;)
Yep you could say if were unhappy then why not go up north and join the party, great standard of living for the money(Yeh I know I'm being greedy, what with my outer London weighting). Those that would can't because there's no-one coming down South to the busiest units to release us. So not only do we deserve a big pay rise but also a retainer bonus to keep and attract.

If the above means a splitting of the union then so be it; because it can't continue and please If I'm wrong (last time was 1988) come on here and tell us why!

Going back to point 1. Do Aftershocks count?

Max Angle

14th Apr 2003, 22:38

Does this mean that NATS will be able to recruit and train enough controllers to staff the place properlely and have the right number of controllers on duty at the busy times?. You need both GMC's open almost the whole time there and to be honest you could do with a separate start-up or push-back freq. as well like AMS of FRA use. Sure cuts down the stress for everybody.

Gonzo

14th Apr 2003, 23:38

Yellow Snow,

Last wrong in 1988? I'll have to refresh myself as to the meaning of the word 'wrong', as it's obviously changed since I last looked.

And I thought you preferred Archer's Aqua? I've heard it goes well with a copy of 'Nursing Times'..........

:cool:

Gonzo.

Jerricho

15th Apr 2003, 00:08

Yellow Snow,

Be assured, although I was p*ssed at the time, I'm sure Point Seven WAS seen with an Alco-pop in his hand. This was just before a challenge was laid down involving something very silly with a triple Jameson's.

Just as a side note, is it not true that both the States and Canada recognise traffic workloads at different Centres/TCUs and have extra "allowance" payments on top of base salary? I do happen to know that in Canada when you get a posting to one of the busier Units (Toronto Centre/TCU for instance), it is seen as "reaching the top" so to speak, and it is rare to be posted back to a quieter unit.

Ye Gods, it almost sounds like Job progression.

rodan

15th Apr 2003, 06:44

At Manch you keep and use your Radar and Tower tickets

And convention dictates that more ratings = more pay. Maybe Heathrow's tower-only controllers should be paid the same as the chaps at Wycombe Air Park tower or Battersea heliport? ;)

Yellow Snow

15th Apr 2003, 07:15

Rodan

I think the Iraqis need a new information minister;)
Either way I'll bet it pays well.

Gonzo

When you look up the definition of wrong, you may find a listing of your waistcoats:p

Scott Voigt

15th Apr 2003, 11:28

Actually;

The US does pay by the plane as it were. We have worked out a formula ( posted here once before) that looks at both traffic levels and complexity levels for the facility. It isn't all encompassing, but we made a fair stab at it the first go around. We look at things such as runway layout, traffic count, any mountains near by, training aircraft, aircraft in climb and descent etc... There are a LOT of things in the standard.

We then put the standard together and put together everyone's count and base the base pay of the unit on that. We don't have add on's per se. The only add on is the cost of employment ( not to be confused with the cost of living ) for the area. We have about 15 different pay levels with the first three I think it is as training levels and then on up. The highest any facility in this country is right now is ATC-12, but we have a few that are bumping up to a 13. I beleive that we have a level 14 for much later down the road when we continue our traffic growth... If anyone wants to see our standard, I could probably dig it up in digital format and get in on here or send it out.

regards

Scott

Biggin Koksy

15th Apr 2003, 18:11

Not being in Prospect, I just wonder if any one thought of looking at the date of this memo. It was April 1st very recently, was it not???????????????

PPRuNe Radar

15th Apr 2003, 19:58

Scott,

It would be very interesting to see the formula used by the USA. I suspect there might be quite a few changes to the 'ranking' of UK units should we adopt it !!!

Greebson

15th Apr 2003, 20:32

If Heathrow are getting £15k, to keep and attract, then that London City must surely be getting an extra £25k, unless it isn't about location

250 kts

16th Apr 2003, 03:20

In all seriousness if there is a major problem recruiting and retaining staff at a unit then maybe an increase in the differentials is the way to go. Certainly this would apply to LACC/LTCC/EGLL and possibly KK as well. I keep my fingers crossed for what may come out of the re-structure next year.

Certainly pay by validation is not the way to go or people will be tempted to carry on doing a sector just for the money even though they may be struggling with the number of sectors they do.

Standard Speeds

16th Apr 2003, 20:23

Do we really believe that there will be any financial recompense in the form of a pay rise, let alone on the basis of re-structuring, in the coming 12 months? (I know it was part of the last deal, but I guess they will merrily say that they need to delay any implementation by 5 years!)

Let's face it, we'll be lucky if they start paying into the pension fund again.... And if they do that, then they certainly will not be looking at splashing out on a new structure which, from what I can tell, will not give them the savings that they want, let alone to pay for what we want!

All will be fun whilst trying to save another £25m....! Perhaps the plants will go in ops rooms, and the price of coffee will go up!?:sad:

Point Seven

16th Apr 2003, 22:22

Jerricho

The last time I was seen with an alcopop, I was taking it out of your hand so that i could carry you out of Waxy O'Connor's.

Yellow Snow

Well said, my man. For too long have other units been moaning about Heathrow asking for more. That nit wit boasting about his cars and hot tub, oh well done mate hope the sun is shining in Aberdeen. We shift the planes, so give us more cash. Then if everyone else wants it, come and shift jets. Properly.

niknak

16th Apr 2003, 23:18

Point Seven

Your post smacks of the arrogance which others in our hallowed fraternity all too readily associate with a minority of Heathrow ATCOs. You do yourself and your unit no favours.
We all know that Heathrow is one of the busiest units in Europe, but just cos' you can do it there, doesnt mean you would be able to do so elsewhere - as several of your former colleagues have found out.
At a place like Heathrow, you are only useful if you survive until the end of the next working day.

Yellow Snow

17th Apr 2003, 00:04

Niknak,

In black and white .7's post may seem arrogant, but knowing him it's more about frustration and the fact that management don't seem to understand what a pi$$take the staffing is. None of the five watches are anywhere near proper staffing resulting in long continued working periods, minimum breaks and GMC bandboxed.
The situation will only get worse in the next 12 months with 2-4 leaving and 1-2 of the girlies going on maternity leave not to mention the Thames to TC split in November! Our traffic is 5% down at the moment due to SARS and the war, given current staffing some of us think this is a good thing (the traffic level not the circumstances)
Don't get me wrong, I like many others love working at EGLL and have no wish to leave but with current staffing and disparity with substantially quieter units to the north, we deserve a substantial payrise to attract and retain ATCO's. As does LTCC and Swanwick.
If you want the money come and get it. Be it area, approach or aerodrome.
From my earlier posting I'm still waiting for those quieter units to tell us busier units why we shouldn't be paid more.
Rant over :bored: :bored: :bored:
:} chomp:} chomp:} chomp

flower

17th Apr 2003, 00:35

Yellow Snow ,
I thought you were paid more. Compare top of the ATCO 2 scale to the top of the ATCO3 scale there is a difference.

I am still uncertain if this is a wind up or not , however something has to be done to attract people away from other units to work in the south-east in particularly at EGLL , EGKK and TC. Such agreements should not be hidden away and should be open to debate throughout Prospect and NATS management.

I do get very annoyed when it would appear in some eyes that level of traffic handled is the only indication of how hard other units work. Complexity of traffic handled is a far better indication.

The Jaguar Fan Club

17th Apr 2003, 00:44

But you guys at the busier units already do get paid more as ATCO 2 grades.......here we go again! :zzz:

Sorry to point this out but the main reason that nobody wants to go to LL or KK is the reputation given by the few nutters that think their own arses dont stink. Perhaps if the "prima-dona" attitude exuding from the deep south was to be overcome, many others would want to be posted there to release those who want out. As has been said, the minority responsible are doing the units no favours.

There is no dispute that you are busy...just stop telling us all the time! WE KNOW! :mad:

PS the sun is shining in Aberdeen...a tropical +18 in fact! :ok:

niknak

17th Apr 2003, 02:56

Yellow, et all .............

I have no doubt that you work hard enough to deserve the extra pay, I also know of the staffing problems you have.
But, the fact remains that you guys choose to work there, (and you're braver souls than I for doing so), even if I could hack the system, I wouldn't work at Heathrow for all the tea in China.
Others may be jealous of your retention bonus, which although a lot of money in the short term, it is nothing for the crap which you have to tolerate.
For reasons that have already been expansively espoused on this post, given my present quality of life and working conditions, I am very happy to stay where I am.

Best regards.

Point Seven

17th Apr 2003, 03:56

Boys and girls

This whole thread is a wind up. I used to enjoy fishing but the whole escapade was always beset with the problem that you always stood a chance of not actually catching anything. Not the case when you're playing on PPRUNE!!!

You are not salmon.

Yellow Snow

17th Apr 2003, 05:47

Jaguar Fan Club

Sorry to point this out but the main reason no one wants to come LL or KK is the reputation given by the few nutters that think their own arses don't stink

Believe me guys my arse does stink, bad, really bad. but that won't change a thing as someone said you wouldn't come here for all the tea in China

What's true from talking to my friends in the company throughout the country is that the belief that LL is full of prima donnas is more bull$hit than this actual thread. The statement that the unit is, is often heard from those who know nothing about the place, they just resort to the time old 'bash the ATCOs at the busy units because they want more money, because we don't want them to have more we'll slag 'em off as arrogant and prima donna esque' Of course this only comes from those ATCOs who are arrogant and ignorant at the quieter units;) ;) ;)

To those of you who think that the difference between ATCO 3 and 2 grades fairly compensates us for the traffic and standard of living, your either on the wind up this time, or fat dumb and happy at your ATCO 3/sleepy ATCO2 :p unit!

Flower
I do get very annoyed when it would appear in some eyes that level of traffic handled is the only indication of how hard other units work. Complexity of traffic handled is a far better indication.

Have you visited EGLL TC or Swanwick and seen just how fcuk!ng complex the traffic can be never mind the numbers.

Jaguar Fan Club
There is no dispute that you are busy...just stop telling us all the time! WE KNOW!

So do you deny the fact we should be paid considerably more?

Niknak

But, the fact remains that you guys choose work there

Err no. I admit I love my job but it doesn't mean I asked to work here, I was posted from the college. Those that do want get out face a 5-8 year wait literally because no-one wants to come here so you have to leave the company or dare I say it fail to validate from the college and get posted somewhere you can use both tickets and get a good standard of living!

As some of you have indicated an extra 15K per annum wouldn't be incentive enough to sell your 4 bed detached house up north to come down here so maybe we should push for more:D :D

Seriousley to all those guys and girls that would like to come to EGLL, TC or Swanwick from the (for the sake of arguement) northern units, how much extra wedge per year would it take to make it worth your while?

Edited because I'm tired from pushing tin;) ;) ;) ;)

flower

17th Apr 2003, 06:37

Yellow snow ,
Of course I have been to LL ,KK and TC, but please don't think we sit on our fat arses doing nothing all day. Come see that we also have a job to do
We may not have your density of traffic , and yes I am well aware of the hastle you get , but Im just saying if you think our job is a an easy one you are also very misinformed.

Sort out the conflictions we have to do daily without the luxury of CAS, GA pilots who havent a flippin clue , Integrating fast military Aircraft with civil air traffic . The grass isn't as green as you may think.

I am seriously considering a move down towards the SE , the only thing putting me off are the living costs. These as I previously stated need to be addressed before others will consider leaving there 4 bedroom homes for a shoebox. Having lived in a decent sized home for over 8 years now why should the company expect me to up everything to live in inferior accomodation. The Staff manual indicates that you should live in equivalent accomodation when moved to an area with a higher cost of living , however you look at theamounts offered to recompense and they are laughable.
To live in anything approaching my current home they would have to offer me at least an additional £200 000 . NATS are not going to do that are they. The small increase in salary will not cover the additional living costs either.
A massive overhaul of relocation needs to happen, those of us at our "cosy" ATCO 3 units will move but only if the conditions are right.

Gonzo

17th Apr 2003, 07:08

While I'm not going to get into the old 'we're busier/have more complex traffic - pay us more!' chestnut, the fact remains that staffing levels at Heathrow are bad, and are only going to get worse as the year progresses.

As for the fact that all of us want to stay here, or even wanted to come here in the first place, well I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Many ATCOs who have validated in the last few years didn't request Heathrow, and a very large proportion of present ATCOs want to get out. A friend of mine actually requested Heathrow Tower as a posting, but didn't get it, and is now over the moon, having seen first hand what it's like. In the past few years we've seen quite a few resignations, and unless something is done to increase the attractiveness of the unit, then things are going to get very much worse.

Morale of Heathrow ATCOs is low, and I know we're not unique in that respect, but we see people resigning to go to non-NATS units for a better quality of life, less trainees being posted in, a lot of the younger ATCOs already looking elsewhere after only a year (sometimes less!) or so after validation, staffing levels decreasing at what seems like a monthly rate, and no incentive to stay. The thing that I guess got people to stay here in the past, that it is such a fun job if you ignore all the stuff going on around you, is having less and less influence.

Heathrow, rightly or wrongly, is seen as the premier unit........Things need to be done to make people WANT to come here. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe get all the students doing the Approach Radar course to spend a week here, to show them that we're not all arrogant (we'll do it when Capt. Spunkfarter, Yellow Snow and Point Seven are on leave.....;)? We are now targetting the incoming OJT six-weekers to those who have expressed an interest in eventually being posted here, which is a step forward. The fact we're now taking OJT at all is good, though indicative of a lack of validation trainees. Like I said, I don't have all the answers, but 15k a year would certainly add to the attractiveness, surely? Who knows, I may even be able to start dreaming about buying a one bed shoebox then!

At the base level it's supply and demand. If staff numbers keep dropping, and with Thames going to TC and taking yet more tower validations, then something's got to happen. If not, then delays will increase, 4 mile spacing will be the norm, airlines will go ape, and all this when we should be looking to increase staff numbers long-term, as when T5 is operational, there will be three GMC controllers!

Gonzo.

yaffs

17th Apr 2003, 07:24

quite obviously this was a wind up - otherwise the boys at swanwick and tc would be moaning at not getting paid it too!!!

and yep there is a problem attracting folk to these units - but i dont think more pay would attract em -
the relocation package is not worth making that move - the whole point about a relocation package is that you are supposed to ba able to live in a similar house in a similar location - and until that is addresssed i dont reckon there'll be many takers - but i dont reckon that would get much support from the folk already there even if it meant more bums on seats would it??!!!!

Evil J

17th Apr 2003, 07:32

This may be a first but well said Gonzo.

Speaking, for those who don't know me, as someone who resigning from LL Twr after about 18 months valid to go work at a non-NATS unit doing both Twr and radar I think I have something to add to this "debate" and can speak from knowing both sides.

Firstly you wouldn't get me back for 15K, not for 3 times that in fact. Yes it could be good fun but as Gonzo says the staffing and more impolrtantly the "management" is dire. And its got much worse since I left I'm told.

But that said working with class D airspace and the FIR is certainly no picnic. I have certainly faced situations far more complex and had busier sessions than anything I faced at Heathrow. Sure the intensity and volume isn't their; but then neither are the procedures to deal with what for this unit has been a massive increase in traffic over a very short space of time. Added to this the much lower cost of living, the fact that we are well staffed (we frequently have more controllers on duty than LL TWR inspite the fact that at the most we run 4 positions), well run and generally appreciated by management why opn earth would I want to go back to LL. This is without mentioning the fact that I now have a radar ticket, a Met ticket and don't go home every day wondering why the hell I bother.

If enough people at LL leave sooner or later something will have to be done so in a way I guess you have your fate in your hands-sorry.

Gonzo

17th Apr 2003, 14:52

Yellow Snow....

Just imagine if the post-9/11 downturn had never happened, no Iraq war and no SARS. We would have broken records again over the summer of 2002, and this summer would be even busier. Maybe then something would have been done earlier. It may well be helping us in the short term, in easing the pressure, but could it be that the downturn has actually worked against us in the long run? If we were running to 1350 movements a day during the week as per 2001, what sort of flow would have been required to get the same effect as the 17% reduction for the introduction of the new stands. Can you imagine how much more pressure we'd have been under from BA?

Gonzo.

Barney_Gumble

17th Apr 2003, 19:52

Flower,

GA pilots who havent a flippin clue

That'll be me then..........but I haven't been up your way for a while now :p

Barney x

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~derek/proon/cat.gif

flower

17th Apr 2003, 19:56

Barney ,

No you havent been up here recently , Mind you I don't remember making any complaints.
Better come up again soon though so I can check!!

;) :p ;)

055166k

17th Apr 2003, 22:11

You guys deserve whatever you can get. Serious suggestion.......in order to staff properly and avoid controller burnout why not completely close down ATC 2300-0600. There are not all that many night movements compared to the disproportionate demand on staffing, especially when those staff are such a scarce and dwindling resource. If you were looked after a little better there may be a happy unit buried in there somewhere.

BookEm

17th Apr 2003, 22:39

Well, I`m the one who`s resigning to get back to my Northern Monkey hometown. It`s no secret who I am then and yes thanks Yellow Snow that means I`ve worked out this modern technology so shut up before you even start.:p Anyway, I`ll miss working at Heathrow because I really enjoy the job and enjoy working with most people there and even though I`ll be long gone and will own most of `Alifax I still really hope that things will improve at EGLL. 15k for example, would not now make me come back but it`d have possibly encouraged me to make my life down in the stinky south, against all my principles. Something needs to be done to stop everyone leaving and really one of the only reasons why there are a few left is lack of suitable jobs elsewhere. I can`t wait to start my new job because I`m sure my skills (even though I`m sure they are of a dubious standard) will be better recognised and appreciated by my new employers. Even though its a wind up I say good luck in the future with getting what you all deserve. Ding Ding All Aboard,Bye for now.

Land After, works every time!:} Chompety Chomp Chomp

Point Seven

17th Apr 2003, 23:52

BookEm

Well said my little disco dancing buddy. We're gonna miss you too. The VCR will be a quieter place without you.

Ponder this NATS management, bodies are on the move and you are doing nothing to stop it, other than cutting back staffing levels and taking extortionately high landing fees and salaries. We can read the papers and we ain't stupid.

YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW.

Yellow Snow

18th Apr 2003, 00:52

What started has a wind up by some o' the lads has actually turned into a pretty good discussion. From what friends in the company nationwide have said, that although they were initially jealous of any 15k payement they would still never come here because it just wouldn't be enough.

Flower, my apologies if my earlier comments looked like I thought the quieter units don't do $hit. I know very well that this is not the case:O

Gonzo, I actually agree with som of the stuff you mention about staffing. Yeh I said it.

To the soon to be Lord Harry of Halifax, Yeadon International don't know how lucky they are mate!!
I'd pay you 15K for one final tube pole dance:D

So there you have it folks, vacancies at EGLL, salary on the intranet, anyone on here interested?
What would it really take to get you down here?
Is there any future in nationwide pay negotiations?

I'm off to make sure my ar$e still stinks and drink copious amounts of alcopops in the sun after a hard pushing that tin:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Bingo Jackpot Ciao

Gonzo

18th Apr 2003, 01:30

BookEm.

Sad to see you go, if only because you're not from the 'oh no, there's two at the holding point, quick, 10 minutes start-up delay!' school of thought! ;)

But then there'll be no more passing you in the car park at 1435 when you come in for an afternoon, so it's give and take.....

Yellow Snow, you agree with some of what I said??????????? Oh my god! Tell me which bits and then I'll change them, quick, before anyone notices!

Gonzo.

Wet Flaps

18th Apr 2003, 01:56

If you're doing approach at the College, you get picked to go to Heathrow, you don't choose. That's the way it's always been. Why? Because we're the f*cking best, that's why.

I went on a visit to Manchester recently and the first thing I noticed was that the Tower ATCO was drinking a mug of tea. If I took a cup of tea into Heathrow Tower, I wouldn't even get so much of a sip of it in a 1 hour session as I'd be working my balls off. And this guy is getting paid the same as me!!! :mad:

It's not right, but it's OK, I'm gonna make it anyway.

Yellow Snow

18th Apr 2003, 02:26

Wet Flaps you my friend are the best and not a day goes by that I don't learn countless things new;) ;)

Oh what the hell,
Gonzo
But then there'll be no more passing you in the car park at 1435 when you come in for an afternoon, so it's give and take....
I agree again, it must be the crate of alcopops already consumed!
But what you must remember is that our magical friend is on flexy time!

When you are short of staffed the unscrupulous ones can get away with murder.

flower

18th Apr 2003, 03:03

Wet Flaps ,

now you know the real reason why none of us will relocate I couldn't possibly control without a cup of coffee in hand !!

Seriously though it is an issue debated out here in the sticks, a number of us wishing to develop our careers have been looking to move onwards and dare I say it upwards.
The major sticking point in moving south-east bound has to be relocation, whilst house prices have risen everywhere , they by know means have risen in relation to the massive house price increases seen in the London area.

Giving up a rating to , although I enjoy the tower, radar is my preferred skill.

Training and the possibility of a failure to validate, when you have been valid and held your own licence for a number of years the thought of going back into the training system is hard , and whether or not it is true , horror stories seep downwards to us about the EGLL training system and the difficulties with local management.

Although we are supposed to be a mobile grade it isn't really enforced, I suppose until a certain mindset changes and we get decent management prepared to hire and fire , thus getting the right people in the right places these issues will not be properly resolved.

Scott Voigt

18th Apr 2003, 07:13

PPrune Radar;

I for the life of me can't find the pay rules and how we manage all the complexity issues and weighing... Don't have time to look REALLY had into it, but here is a web site that shows some of our pay stuff and how down in the weeds we get with it.

http://home.att.net/~oceanview/

regards

Scott

WetFeet

21st Apr 2003, 15:59

Differential pay? Sounds good, but how do you work it out? Who gets what?

Can't be number of movements as there is too much else involved, and it wouldn't put Heathrow at the top of the tree although they would like to think so, only when measured againt other airports.

How about variety of traffic (integrating military, GA), or daily variance of traffic pattern, availability of radar to shift a thousand movements a day, number of validations required to be gained and kept, length of time an aircraft is in the sector?

We regularly see comments calling Scottish a "holiday camp", there's one in this thread, but it is true, folk do come up from down south and fail to validate. Heathrow has a similar number of movements as the Ocean, but at Heathrow are aircraft on a sector for two hours, or are Heathrow working flat out at 4am? They can't be compared.

And as for being picked to go to Heathrow because you are the best! That'll be a big no, and dillusional, and a comment guaranteed to p**s off your colleagues elsewhere! You may get picked to go there but there are plenty of top cadets, or whatever they are called now, and very good controllers, at other units.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the problems with travel and cost of housing (note housing not living, take cost of housing and travel out of the equation and you find the remainder is cheaper down south).

The bottom line is almost every unit could make a case for being at the top of the tree. Unfortunately it is the "Golden Unit" and the "Jewel in the Crown" that hit the headlines by making out they are the best and the Prima Donna attitude displayed by some, not all, at these units that quarantees no support when you want more.

Differential pay? Sounded good but finding a fair system, impossible! Trouble is, NATS is all about headlines so you will probably win your case regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

Wet Flaps

21st Apr 2003, 19:13

WetFeet

Heathrow has a similar number of movements as the Ocean, but at Heathrow are aircraft on a sector for two hours?
Are the aircraft 2.5 miles apart over the ocean? Thought not.
are Heathrow working flat out at 4am?
Nope. Heathrow is working flat out from 6am to 11pm.
There are plenty of top cadets...at other units
'Top Cadets' haven't been around for about ten years.

I haven't been to Scottish. So I can't comment on the daily task that you face. But please don't try to suggest that your job is as difficult as mine. That would be an insult.

Gonzo

21st Apr 2003, 22:21

Two different issues are being discussed here:

1) Does Heathrow deserve more money relative to other units?

2) Does something need to be done NOW to make people want to come to and/or stay at Heathrow?

To be honest I'm only interested in number 2.

At the moment, each watch is one down on complement. BookEm is leaving in a few months, and another is off on maternity leave at some stage. Don't know the numbers, but I guess a handful have gone for the Manchester jobs. People want out. Thames Radar/Special going to TC may well take up to 20. If so, each watch will then be two down, maybe some will be three down. On those figures I'm doubtful whether a five watch system will even work.

Supply and demand. We are now a more commercial company, are we not?

Due to the need to save 25 million or whatever was in the NATS News the other day, maybe pay cuts at other units will be just as good at making people want to come.......;)

Gonzo.

Evil J

22nd Apr 2003, 02:25

Wet Flaps - your ignorance is appalling and gives a bad name to LL ATCO's. I have done both so I can comment- Heathrow Twr is not that difficult nor is it more difficult than many other places; I'll grant you its more intense and handles more movements but then it is set up to handle more than other places.

I can categorically state that since leaving LL I have faced far more challenging and "difficult" scenarios than I ever faced at LL. Sure I don't move 1500+ aircraft a day but then when each departure in the tower requires a minimum of 3 phone calls by the controller and the runway turn offs are so slow that 6 mile spacing does not leave space to get one away it doesn't take many planes to be working 'kin hard.

With all due respect take your head out of you ar*@ and go validate somewhere else and then you won't have to take my and everyone else who is living in the real world's word for it.

Rant over.

ferris

22nd Apr 2003, 04:30

Are the aircraft 2.5 miles apart over the ocean? Thought not.
If the aircraft are 30NM apart, and the standard is 30NM, what is the difference? Never worked procedurally, have you?

Nope. Heathrow is working flat out from 6am to 11pm.
I've worked flat out at both ends of the clock, and I'd rather work flat out during shifts between 6AM to 11PM, any day.

I haven't been to Scottish. So I can't comment on the daily task that you face. But please don't try to suggest that your job is as difficult as mine. That would be an insult.

That is just a demonstration of having your head up your arse. Why don't you open your mouth, put one eye up to the gap, have a look at 'Scottish' or wherever, then you may have some cred.

I have seen controllers working in all manner of places, under all manner of conditions, and generally you find that they ALL pretty much are working at capacity, at least some of the time. Managers tend to use as little staff as they can, and that is the result. I have seen guys in backwater procedural towers working their RINGS OFF. Put in a radar, and they wouldn't look up from their newspapers. Is their work any less valued? Absolutely, it seems. Well here's a wake-up call. Work out how many movements you have at LHR, PER CONTROLLER. You'd be shocked at how you compare to many 'backwaters' (and god help you if you try it with the U.S.).
If you guys feel that you need more money, or more bodies, or whatever, that's fine. I believe your cry of 'relentless' certainly has merit. But you are the master of your destiny. Don't point at other guys and say "he should get less", try getting their help for you to get more. Maybe you will be able to repay the favour some time.

Yellow Snow

22nd Apr 2003, 06:01

Ferris, Evil J and whoever else,
I think Wet Flaps wanted you to bite and hard too, don't take much notice of him his missus doesn't
:D

Agreeing with Gonzo again (sigh). It's more about the busier units not just LHR, I'm talking Swanwick and TC. That need to attract and retain staff.

The watches at LHR are proper short staffed as I'm sure at other units this may be the case also. Just like MDI's being introduced at LACC when it gets going, this summer I have no doubt we'll see big inbound delays as 4,5 maybe even 6 mile spacing is requested due to staff shortage.

AVA are not being approved by management so the situation is passed limits, passed holding on by a thread. It's surface tension on your full pint!

Wet Flaps

22nd Apr 2003, 06:08

Evil J
I hear that you had your Heathrow leaving do in a telephone box. Do they do catering?

Captain Spunkfarter

22nd Apr 2003, 06:26

Let's not get personal Wet Flaps.

I agree with you to a small extent. Evil J left EGLL when it was fairly straightforward. As Yellow Snow and Gonzo suggest, there aren't enough staff and the task is definately more complex due to the constant work in progress.

Basically, we need to feel more valued. This can be achieved through good management techniques to make us all happy at work. We work for NATS, so that ain't gonna happen, so just give us 15k.

ferris

22nd Apr 2003, 13:56

That's the best reply you could come up with? And here we all are thinking you are the best of the best !!

Point Seven

22nd Apr 2003, 16:56

When I first started this thread off, it was intended as a bit of a wind up. However, there was a serious issue underneath it and it was the issue of staff disillusionment at Heathrow. It would appear that "we have created a monster" (copyright Shepherds Weekly!!).

When you've all stopped throwing names at one another, stop and realise the issue is not who works harder, does most jets, has most complicated job. The whole world of ATC thinks that they have the hardest job. Except Jerricho, he knows he's got it easy;)

No, the issues that need resolving are twofold. Heathrow staffing is going to the dogs and getting started down in the South ain't getting any easier. I know that this is relative before all the old fogeys start going on but all us youngsters have is our own experience. We live in rabbit hutches and can't get a decent start. This is why the idea of a retainer for people in the area is being vaunted. Not just Heathrow, but TC and City included. It's not exclusive, we're all in the same boat heading toward Niagara, so share and share alike.

I'm not claimng morale is worse at Heathrow than any where else but come and see for yourselves, it is crap. My advice to you would be don't come down here because you'll do an hour and a half in position and get the minimum break cos there's no staff. No eg's if one person is sick, full hours on the co ordinators, it ain't worth the hassle of the test day. But something has to be done, all we're looking for is to alleviate the never ending take by unit management. THAT is what this thread has been about.

P7

Don't Look Now

22nd Apr 2003, 17:32

Ladies and Gentlemen please calm yourselves down or this very good thread will be pulled.

I left LL about 3 years ago and was valid there for 4 years. I had a great job and worked with great people. I believe that my colleagues were very competent, but the level of competency is high in all NATS units and can be true for lots of other units around the world.

I left as I felt that I had no future there. What do you do once you're valid, what can you look forward to? Perhaps an eventual posting to approach, but that will take you 10 years on a waiting list if you're lucky.

My opinion is that the problem is much deeper than a fictional 15k LL bonus. The cash might get a few extra bums on seats but it is a lack of structure in personnel development and a refusal of the mangement to address real issues (which is a trait shared by other NATS units and other ATC organisations around the world)

Due to family reasons I had comtemplated returning but was deterred by my application process which brought back all my old memories of incompetence from the management. After an initial contact I was given a date for an interview. I arrived (after considerable personal expense on airfares etc) and no one was expecting me. The meeting was concluded with the term we'll be in contact with you asap. A month and a half passed with no news, it was only after I requested their decision that a reply was given. An offer which was laughable, and one which I declined......

I hope that LL ATCOs get what they deserve, but I think it will take a lot more than just 15k.

Jerricho

22nd Apr 2003, 17:59

Hey P7,

Don't you mean "I AM easy"? *wink-wink*

I like you P7, you're a funny guy. I think I'll kill you last. :E

PS Sorry I can't make you Stag do bro! The Jock wiil take care of you for me.

Captain Spunkfarter

22nd Apr 2003, 18:32

I see that each watch has received £250 for our sterling efforts during the recent Heathrow stand renumbering.

That's about £12 each then. What a joke.

Jerricho

22nd Apr 2003, 18:58

WOW!!!.........

How many Alco-pops will that buy? ;)

Evil J

23rd Apr 2003, 00:56

Capt S,

Yeah coz there was never WIP when I was there!!

Don't get me wrong you should try and get all you can, and I do know how complicated it is and how short staffed you are (and how often Halo gets suspended!!). All I am saying (and I appreciated that Wet Flaps is only trying to provoke a reaction-but that isn't why pprune is here) is that you can't claim that it is harder or more complicated than anywhere else if you haven't worked anywhere else.

Its the guys and galls going area I feel sorry for. At least if you want to LL ATCO's can go work for someone else(as many of us have/are) without having to leave the country or re-train.

Hats off to TC you all do a bloody good job.

Plazbot

23rd Apr 2003, 04:24

Jerricho, silence, the grownups are talking

:= :yuk: :} :bored: :zzz: :D :D :D :ok:

throw a dyce

23rd Apr 2003, 06:38

Can someone ''In the smoke'' tell me why Atco 3's are required to undergo assessments for LL,KK and CC when kids from the college are posted to these units,as Atco 2's without this process.
If LL has a staffing problem then perhaps it's self inflicted,and an overhaul of this system is needed.Surely experienced Atco's with multi ratings/validations and OJTI qualifications should be looked at,more on face value and not treated like something the cat dragged in.
I think it's a gross insult that these units, LL,KK and especially CC have this attitude which puts people off thinking of applying,even before the money is taken into account;15K bonus or not.

Gonzo

23rd Apr 2003, 09:13

Throw a Dyce,

I got to Heathrow in March 99. Up until late summer '02 I reckon that maybe 10 or 11 people got posted in during that period from other units, both NATS and non-NATS.

Of those, I don't think any made it to validation. Probably the same number of trainees straight from the college got posted in during the same period, and virtually all, if not every one, of them made it.

AFAIK, Anyone wanting to be posted as an ATCO to Heathrow has to undergo an assessment, not just ATCO 3s.

Gonzo.

DangerousD

23rd Apr 2003, 16:39

more money for Heathrow, more money for saying 'cleared to land' to planes of similar types, flying the same speed and spaced and positioned by real controllers using radars!! more money for saying ' clear take off runway--, surface wind is---' from a runway you don't even have to worry about arrivals on????

Sounds like a cushy number to me....... we all knew at the college that tower and approach was the easy option. More money for area controllers thats what I say!!!!

(discuss)

p.s. re housing costs, it is personal choice that dictates where you want to live, I'm sure there are many 4 bed detached houses in Slough or Bracknell that wouldn't break the bank( I know, i used to live in one!!), it's personal choice that decrees that you want to live in Windsor, Ascot or Wokingham, etc much the same as you have to pay over the odds to live in Wilmslow, Knutsford etc in Manchester

Captain Spunkfarter

23rd Apr 2003, 17:24

The correct phraseology is:

"Cleared for take off Runway --, surface wind --"

Bellend.

Jerricho

23rd Apr 2003, 17:24

Hey DD,

2 slight flaws in you argument. Firstly, your comment about "Cleared to land" for similar type, at similar speed etc is kind of sweeping (Now before it starts, I know every unit has it's own complexity issues, so we will not start down that route, I'm being UK specific). For the arrivals controller, throw in the mix of crossing a/c from T4 to get to the north runway, 1 or 2 police helicopters blatting about doing security checks as well as the crosser from the south that didn't take the hold instruction at Bedfont, the Air France that has rolled long and is taking an age to get off the runway, as well as the 777 the Fin controller has stuffed up it's a$$ in an attempt to try and land 48 a/c in an hour. It's the workload I believe that is the underlying issue of Point 7's druken ramblings.

Secondly, I think you'll find that arrivals CAN and DO use the departure runway. This happens when significant inbound delays occur. And chances are if it's busy in the holds, it's busy on the gound. And Departures can and do use the arrival runway as well.

And we won't even mention GMC that has been bandboxed due sickness. Oh, and what's that, very strong wind from the south, looks like 23 operations on its way!

(Sorry Plaz, trying to be mature!)

And in closing,we could start the old Approach/Tower vs Area thing again as well from the ever popular "which is the easyier option" thread rears it's head again. But that has been flogged to death so many times, I think they are talking about making it into a film.

As I said, its a workload thing......................

cossack

23rd Apr 2003, 17:25

throw a dyce

Don't feel so hard done to. NATS HR will not permit a student to be posted to Manchester Airport directly from the College. Many have tried (me included many years ago) and none have succeeded. Postings in from outside NATS also are no longer permitted, unlike Heathrow.

All ATCOs, including ATCO2s from CATC, TC and the London airports, wishing to come to Manchester have to "jump through the hoops" as I did 7 years ago. If you're a 3 then it is a promotion and as such you have to be assessed as suitable as you would if you were a 2 and went for an ATCO1 job.

ATCO2s do not have the right of transfer to the unit of their choice either so they too must be assessed. This is to avoid the waste, both of time and money, of relocating the same person twice. There are some who have passed the assessment and then been unable to "validate", but the majority have not had any problems.

There are about 20 being assessed next month for about 5 or 6 places, best of luck to you all.

Not long now...