Flying into RAF aerodromes

[knobbygb]

I'd always kind of assumed that RAF fields would be off-limits to us GA types, but I was just reading through a couple of old posts about people flying into these places and it got me thinking.

Many of these airfields are in Pooleys, and advertise landing fees ('MoD Rates'). Some specifically say 'not normally available to civil aircraft', but most don't, so does that mean that the others ARE normally available? If they ARE available, is it normal practice to allow light aircraft in 'just for the hell of it', or do you need a good reason?

I just thought it'd be nice to get a few of these places 'in the log book', and It'd have the added benefit of making me more familiar with what to expect if I ever had to divert to one.

I know I could ring up directly and just ask, but I don't want to sound a complete idiot if it's a definate 'no chance' or if the landing fees are beyond my budget. So, specific questions:

What are 'Mod(RAF) rates'? Same for every RAF field or do they vary?

In GENERAL terms, are they happy to have PPL's dropping in (don't worry, wasn't planning on going to Fairford or Brize at the moment!)?

Is there a good online source of info on where you can and can't go?

Who would I call at the bases (there are phone numbers for both ATC and Ops at most).

Anyone have any specific stories/recommendations of friendly places? I'm looking at the Yorkshire/Lincolnshire/North East area specifically.

I may also post this on the military forum, but since it's a question from a PPL point of view, thought I'd try here first. Thanks for any help.

[Genghis the Engineer]

You'll not find them all that sympathetic to "just dropping in", but if you're just using them as a place to land and departing the site on business, then coming back and flying away - or you have business on the airfield, you'll meet little resistance.

MoD(RAF) rates are fixed. I haven't paid them for a while but it's in the order of a tenner per landing.

£7.5m crown liability insurance is mandatory. If you don't have it, they'll charge you about £8 per landing supplement for it.

The people you want to talk to on the station for PPR will be "station ops", NOT ATC.

Also I'll offer a few pointers:-

- Be very familiar with the airfield layout plan from Pooleys, etc. - they'll expect you to know it.

- Mil airfields fly constant aspect circuits, not civvie rectangular circuits, with slightly different circuit calls. Be familiar with them.

- If asked on RT if you are familiar with the airfield, always say no, otherwise you'll be sent around strange local unofficial VRPs or routings only known to pilots based there.

- If uncertain you'll get things right, and bearing in mind that as a PPL - however experienced - you'll be probably a rank beginner in military terms, use the term "Tyro" after your callsign at initial contact. This is the military equivalent of "student pilot" and means that they'll treat you (a little more) gently.

- My experience is that if you are light, landing after heavy, military controllers won't automatically give you safe separation, you have to ask for it. Bear in mind that a fighter may be only a little larger than you, but it still weighs 10 tonnes and is landing at 100kn+, so treat it as heavy.

- Take a cheque book, they won't accept plastic for landing fees and cash will throw the system.

- Don't assume that they'll have AVGAS on site, most military aircraft only run on jet fuel so they won't often bother having a store of 100LL or equivalent.

- It does no harm to read up on RAF (or Navy / Army) shoulder tabs so you know whether you are talking on the ground to a Junior Technician, Flight Lieutenant or the Group Captain Station Commander, a basic awareness of military etiquette goes a long way.

G

[englishal]

I was chatting to an ATCO at a well known RNAS, and he invited me into his airspace for some practice PAR approaches to relieve his boredom, followed by tea and cakes in the tower....

Can't be bad..

Cheers
EA:D

[Spiney Norman]

Last year the MOD rates for those without the Insurance cover, (most of us I guess)....
£8.08 per 500kgs + VAT + £8.50 insurance charge.
I'd expect this to have gone up slightly as we're just into the new financial year.

Spiney

[alphaalpha]

I've flown into a fair number of military fields without any problem and agree with the advice above. If you are flying IFR you may well be offered a PAR approach (like an SRA but with glideslope guidance).

There some fields with an RAF or RN museum on site, which makes for a really interesting day out. You may well be offered ground transport over to the museum.

When you ring for PPR, you may be asked to fax a copy of your insurance to confirm MoD cover. Some aifields will also ask you to fax details of yourself/passengers and aircraft, presumably for security reasons.

I have had one case where the airfield did not want me to pay on the spot and insisted in invoicing the charges.

So it's a little bit more hassle, but worth it for a new dimension in flying experience. However, I should say that all my experience was before we were at war.

AA.

[Hansard]

I may be totally wrong, but I believe that the standard landing fee for a light single at a RAF aerodrome is around £35-£40. I've never heard of paying an excess if you don't have the requisite insurance; my understanding is that if you don't have it, you won't be granted permission under any circumstances - and they often require to see proof.

[BlueRobin]

Read Irv's recent article in FLYER. I think the issue was February? Irv?

Also, mind dem helipoppers. That down draught can leave a wake vortex hanging around for minutes.

[Spiney Norman]

Hansard.
As Genghis says earlier. The MOD require £7.5m third party cover. They do recognise that most private aircraft don't carry that amount of third party liability, so they provide the facility of a one off charge to cover a single aircraft movement. Thus the £8.50 Insurance charge.

Spiney

[Genghis the Engineer]

One other thing just occurred to me, make sure you're up to date on marshalling signals, marshalling is pretty much universal at service airfields.

G

[Kolibear]

So would a Pprune Fly-in at Yeovilton be a serious proposition then?

[knobbygb]

Thanks for the advice. some things I'd thought about, and a few I hadn't (I would have turned up with just a credit card, for example - Doh!).

Consensus seems to be £8 or so for the landing - I had envisaged huge three figure sums designed to put people off! Also, our club DOES have the Crown liability insurance apparently so no prob. there.

I'm fairly low hours but not lacking in the confidence to try somthing a bit different. I'll let people know if I ever get around to it. One place which looked interesting was Valley on Angelsey - I could combine this with a trip to Caernarfon. Anyone been?

I also plan to fly into Cosford at some point. They have an RAF museum there (kind of like a mini-duxford I believe). Pooleys say they only accept private a/c Mon-Fri - I'll call them to check because that would make a GREAT Northern/Midlands fly-in venue! (Just NNW of Wolverhampton Intergalagtic - easy for most to get to).

BlueRobin, I know what you mean about Heli's - was reading about the accident where a cessna crashed on landing at an RAF field due to propwash - thats one of the things that prompted this thread.

On a different (but related topic) - did anyone see the 'Dambusters' programme the other night - I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it on here! They are trying to re-create the famous bombing raid using modern RAF crew in a Lancaster simulator at Scampton. The main focus of it all seemed to be the difficulties of low-level navigation - VERY relevant to us lot! Was fun watching fighter pilots drawing wind trangles on the back of CRP-1's and trying to fly around Lincolnshire and Yorkshire (my local area). I think the concluding part is on next Tuesday for 1.5hrs. Worth a look.

[AerBabe]

There's an in-depth thread on the Dambusters programme in the Aviation History forum. :)

[BlueRobin]

Kolibear - it certainly would if you could co-ordinate it with the RAF safety brief/evening.

[Dude~]

I thought the findings of the investigation into the cessna crash at St Mawgan was that the rotar effect of the nearby chopper almost certainly played no part in the accident, other than its visual prescense, leading to a go aroung which went wrong.?

[Chilli Monster]

knobby

I suggest you go back and read the thread properly - it's not 8 pounds per landing but 8.08 per 500kgs or part thereof (based on MTOW) with 17.5% Vat added. That's £28.48 if you have Crown indemnity cover and £36.98 if you don't for a Warrior or similar.

[witchdoctor]

If you think you might need refuelling during your visit, choose somewhere that also has a University Air Squadron based there. Not only will they have AVGAS, but the controllers should also be pretty familiar with light single ops and inexperienced pilots and perhaps a little more helpful as a consequence. Leeming would be a good one for North Yorkshire (****** all to do there though) and that N/S runway will give you plenty of crosswind landing experience.

[Courtman]

I visited RAF Cosford last year and found them very helpful and friendly. Our club has the crown indemnity and we were only charged around £10 because we were on a "navigational exercise" (we navigated to find Cosford at least!). It was then a short walk to the RAF Museum which was well worth a nosey around.

Our club uses RAF Henlow as its preferred place for training - great friendly little airfield with some good deals, but make sure you get good PPR before flying in unless your club has an arrangement.

On the other hand, we wanted to visit Middle Wallop to go to the Museum of Army Flying and they were not half as accomodating. The landing fee was in the region of £30 and they wouldn't budge on it. They wanted insurance faxing before hand and all sorts of other things, so we gave them a wide berth!

Plan is to try Yeovilton next....!

[Lost_luggage34]

Genghis has covered everything very nicely and very thoroughly as always!!.

Anyone every flown into RAF Odiham ? Just curious to hear any comments.

[tmmorris]

Odiham - yes, went there for a Military/Civil Air Safety Day last week.

Since they were expecting loads of bumbling civvies, we had generous PPR slots (mine was 8.30-8.45am, for example) and they had stopped all other flying for that time, so we got an easy ride: I was even allowed to join right downwind despite the warning in the notes we were sent that runway 28 had a left hand circuit and no deadside. They were very helpful and bussed us to the place for our meeting, but I guess this was a special occasion.

Otherwise, I had little problem finding it, ATC were great, nice big runway, PAR available if needed, but you'd have to watch out for Chinooks which I suspect could create some nasty vortices.

Tim

[Megaton]

If you land at the RAF airfield from which I type you will be charged:

£8.08/500 kg landing fee
£15 insurance unless holding MOD waiver
Servicemen pay reduced insurance charges.

Please note these charges have gone up recently.

Ghengis is partially correct regarding PPR. Not all airfields have an Ops Wg or Sqn. In the absence of either contact ATC for PPR.

[ozplane]

I went to Wyton for the Joint Military/Civil Safety Day last October and they were very helpful. As it's near my home base I usually give them a call if I'm doing the "jolly" over Grafham Water and they give a good FIS. The main bonus is that most of their traffic is the UAS Grobs and the based light aircraft so it's a painless way of getting an RAF station in the logbook. It's also VERY long compared to our grass strip. In a Cub in a strong wind you could land and stop literally on the numbers they're so big!

[Aussie Andy]

I've been into Wyton, to visit a friend at the flying club there... embarassinlgy I must admit to misidentifying the airstrip, nearly landing on what used to be USAF station at Alconbury, just to the west! This is marked as disused on the map, but still looks like a usable airfield, not like most disuseds I am uised to seeing! Easy done if approaching from the west... be warned! (Unless its just me!?)

Andy :8

[Random UAS Stude]

Aussie Andy

Did you have a moment of shock once you saw all those inconsiderate cars sitting on the runway...

Anyway your not the only one...

One of the UAS guys called downwind at Wyton once (ATC were confused by the distinct lack of a Grob in the circuit), and turned out to be at Alconbury. Doh...

I wasn't me, honest (no, really it wasn't...)

(Oops, I've just given away which (one of two) UAS I'm on haven't I!):O

[Aussie Andy]

Random UAS Stude: precisely!

In fact I had called d/wind and was just about to turn base, speaking to my mate at Wyton who was manning A/G radio that day, him wondering why he hadn't sighted me... while I was wondering a) why the railway line I was crossing was not shown on my map ("useless map" I irrationally decided :uhoh:!) and b) why there were so many (like 10,000!) cars parked at the upwind end of the runway!

So I called Wyton and said "please confirm there are a large number of vehicles a the end of the runway..!?"

Reply: "No you nonce! You're at the wrong field!"

D'oh!!!!!

Andy :ooh

[Random UAS Stude]

if you ever DID land at Alconbury, or had to land for some unknown reason, the parallel taxiways would be the best bet...

[Avoiding Action]

ozplane,

'I usually give them a call if I'm doing the "jolly" over Grafham Water and they give a good FIS'

Who gives a bad FIS, and how do you define that?;) :D

AA

[ozplane]

Avoiding Action

How do I define a bad FIS? I'd go for the guy who when asked for a FIS says "2 in the circuit and 1 local". It doesn't take a lot more to say "1 local to the North" or somesuch. And before the smarta...s say I should have the eyes out of the cockpit...I do.
As to the bad FIS, no names no packdrills, but try getting any sort of FIS leaving Kemble after one of their bigger fly-ins. Not Kemble themselves I hasten to add. If the cap fits etc.

[sennadog]

Odiham - yes, been there and it was fun. Apart from a blustery day when I was a student I flew in there with an instructor.

ATC were excellent and even showed us round. My landing was ok-ish but ended up taxying for ages along the RWY! The ATC chappy politely suggested that I didn't need to use the entire RWY for take off and I did as he said, probably using no more than 10% of it.

Good fun and I recommend it.

[Fujiflyer]

I understand the MoD now require pilots visiting their <our> bases to obtain an "Insurance Waiver Certificate" if we are to use the Crown Indemnity cover if we may have it already with our normal a/c policy - for more than 12 visits per year. I am in the process of applying for such a certificate and once have received such will update this thread. However as I understand it so far it is a case of asking the RAF to send an application form which then (once returned) is submitted for security clearance. Only "originals" of the form are accepted so if applying on behalf of a syndicate ask for several forms. I am advised the clearance can take up to 3 months. Nicely there is no charge associated with all this.


Rich

[grow45]

In a similar vein does anybody have any experience of flying into BAe Warton - both advice and whether there is any chance of getting PPR. My brother works there and as there is a families day in September I was wondering about the possibility of pitching up in an Archer.

Tks

grow45

[Chilli Monster]

grow45

Without wishing to state the obvious your best bet would be to phone BAe Ops (numbers in the flight guides) and ask. At the end of the day they can only say no.

[Bear 555]

Folks,

As one who learnt with Moray Flying Club based at Kinloss, there's a few things to pass on reflecting some of the comments above...

Quite a few airfield have VGS flying at the weekend. While this does mean that Avgas is available it also means that the circuit can be busy.

Well worth calling and asking if there are any PPL's based there who are known to ATC. Theses guys are a good source of local advice and information. Even better if there is a Flying Club there, as you may be able to 'visit' them and receive assistance.

Circuits shape and size can be varied for different traffic types. You really need to be aware of these, and of the local procedures wich may not be as 'standard'. The comment about local VRP's is quite correct.

Even more than usual, be prepared for the unexpected! Foreign fast-jet formations can keep ATC quite busy and you may not be top priority if faced with 8 German Mig29's or 14 F-4's or a few Spanish Sea Harriers arriving within 10 minutes. These guys will also be using the visiting aircraft facilities.

At weekends you may not be welcome at all - some airfields will be closed for sure.

With all that in mind, however, I'm quite sure a polite, confident and competent PPL would be well received and be given appropriate service and hospitality from the military. It is fun, after all......

More to come if I think of it.

Bear555