RVSM comms

[bundybear]

Am entering the den to find out when, and when not, we have to call leaving and maintaining a level. I know the Jepps say the French do not want to know, but, do the Spanish for example?
Whilst in the den, if given a restriction on descent, say FL200 25<TNT is isssued, and then given a freq. change, if the new controller does not re issue the restriction, does it still apply, and more importantly I guess, would the new controller think that is what we are trying achieve or would they just assume that our dynamic situation at the time of handover will remain the same more or less?
Any direction from those who stare at scopes would be appreciated.

B Bear

[fourthreethree]

Firstly, what has this to do with RVSM?

On to the question...
In my opinion, as a Maastricht controller, I would not expect pilots to call leaving or maintaining a level. The RT is busy enough anyway, and as I have already carried out a mode-c check my radar will tell me that information. The exception is if you have a faulty mode-c, but then I would ask you on the frequency to report leaving or maintaining.

On your second point, if I give a restriction it could be for a number of reasons
1) due to my own traffic, in which case I will not change your frequency until the restriction is met
2) due to traffic on the next sector, in which case the next controller will (should) reiterate the restriction
3) to meet LOA restrictions, in which case it would apply regardless of whose frequency you are on

In short, a restriction for descent (or climb) can only be overridden by a new clearance issued by atc. A change of frequency does not alter this.
Also, as the transfer of coms often takes place before the transfer of control point, the next controller would need my permission to alter any restrictions given.
Basically I would say as a pilot follow any restrictions given, until you are told otherwise.

I appreciate the question, it shows a willingness for cooperation between "you" and "us".:cool: :cool:

[055166k]

Here's a tip for you; don't try to overthink everything. I don't ask you how your N1 is and I don't expect you to have a detailed knowledge of my job. Just comply with an executive instruction if one is given, or if given a clearance you have a little more scope for interpretation. Why not pop down to you friendly neighbourhood Centre to get an explanation of all the seemingly weird level restrictions. How is your EPR thesedays?

[bundybear]

055166K

My EPR is fine. How is the chip on your shoulder?

Your domain is defined as,

"A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask."

And as to, "Just comply with an executive instruction if one is given", how incredibly arrogant.

BBear

[StillDark&Hungry]

BB

As 433 states I'm sure most of us thoughtfull ATCO's appreciate your question - what erks 055.. is beyond me! Its a shame he gives such a bad opinion of us. We are all human!

Anyway to answer;

As I have a radar in front of me and you, hopefully, have a functioning transponder! no vacating or maintaining reports needed unles asked for please.

And, as far as I am aware, the only thing that can cancel an executive instruction is another executive instruction - not a frequency change. As an aside - many of the level restrictions given in UK airspace are to either a) ensure seperation from crossing traffic, or b) to ensure you enter the correct sector where they are vertically banded.
Such level restrictions usually take the form of a Standing Agreement to which both controllers are expecting you to comply!

On a more tricky note, if the receiving controller subsequently issues a new level and restriction are you still expected to comply with the first?
eg. "DESCEND FLIGHT LEVEL 270 BY GIBSO"
"CONTACT LONDON 129.42"
"DESCEND FLIGHT LEVEL 130 BY GWC"

Now at what level do you cross GIBSO? Have I cancelled that restriction? I'm sure between Pilots and ATCO's we'd have an even split of answers!

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

I'm sure between Pilots and ATCO's we'd have an even split of answers!
Indeed, and a heated debate :D. See this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15295) for the gory details...

[055166k]

BB, I am trying to be genuinely helpful. I don't know where you fly so here are some examples. If you are outbound from EGCC or EGGP down A25/N862 you may be told to climb to FL270 level 20 miles before CUMRI[or BCN].This instruction is given by Sector 5[133.6]. Traffic climbing westbound on G1 out of London will be climbing to FL260 but under the control of Sector 23[134.75], and the procedures allow a much reduced level of co-ordination. If you are a slow climber or as we had last week a strong northerly wind which had the effect of flattening the climbs, then inter-controller co-ordination takes place. During the climb we may clear you to a higher level and this is where the great debate will always lie. I might be monitoring your rate of climb or using a prediction vector tool and assess that your climb profile will easily achieve the level[perhaps due to a/c type performance or a good headwind]. If the level achievement is marginal I might repeat or amplify that the crossing achieve level still applies. If you are inbound to the London area from the west down G1 I will for example clear you to be FL140 forty miles before OCK. In the WOD/CPT area the multiplicity of crossing tracks and routes requires a complex set of level allocations; Gatwick inbounds at FL150, your plane at FL140, Stansted/Luton at FL180, Solent clutch inbounds FL120. Outbounds from London climb west to FL130 except Stansteds which climb to FL210. What about the other levels? FL110 is traffic southbound to the Solent airfields, FL160 is for traffic inbound to Brize Norton/Lyneham for example, FL170 is for my traffic eastbound from Bristol/Brize/Lyneham etc. FL220 is for inbounds via CPT to the Bristol area, or FL260 for Cardiff. These levels lead to a relatively smooth traffic flow but to enhance service delivery and whenever traffic permits a series of inter-controller co-ordinations does take place and this is quite often with sectors and units which had no prior knowledge of your flight. What I wanted to do, and hopefully seem a little more polite in the process, was to get across the need for high discipline in level attainment. My suggestion of a visit was absolutely genuine and well meaning. I nearly forgot about FL230/240, the military crossing corridor at Swindon, and there are many more on the other sectors

[bundybear]

Thanks all.
This has shed some light on whats happening at your end, and has of course highlighted the need for those sitting where I sit to achieve the verticle limits imposed.
I thought though, hence the subject title, there was a requirement to report reaching and leaving levels, in RVSM airspace, in the UK at least, as per an AIC I cannot seem to lay my hands on at the moment. The only other published information I have seen is in the Jepp. Text manual under the "French ATC Differences", stating that they did not want to hear from us. I know this seems only trivial, however, many different opinions in the cockpits I sit in, and no one wants to occupy a second more of a busy London freq. controllers time than they have to.

No need for pie 055166K, we'll sort it out over a beer sometime!

Any chance direct....... .

BB