Dambusters - 21:00 - channel 4 [Archive]

BoeingMEL

8th Apr 2003, 17:53

Think you missed the point MightyGem... the programme quoted 100' ALTITUDE.... since their track was over parts of Germany 600+ feet amsl, this implies they were flying at 500' below ground level! (Height= vert dist agl....altitude= vert dist amsl..remember?) Nonetheless those were truly great guys who achieved the almost impossible. Bless them all BM

difar69

8th Apr 2003, 19:05

Interesting idea for a programme but poorly executed, in my opinion. There is, of course, no denying that the original guys were an amazing bunch and their feat remains an outstanding testament to their skill and bravery.

The programme seemed to be trying to compare the current generation of aircrew with their forebears, the argument being that young aircrew fresh out of training today, are in a similar position to the Dambusters 60 years ago. It then contradicted itself by quoting one old boy as being curious when he turned up at Scampton to find a gathering of very good, experienced crews. The Dambusters weren't new to the Lanc or their crews. It seemed a tad unfair to subject these newly breveted pre OCU guys and girls to the comparison.

I agreed with the boys from todays 617 that your levels of MDR etc. are much better just out of training than after a few years on the front line. What confused me was that after the narrator spoke at length about the demands of low level MDR Nav and how pivotal the Nav was on the Lanc not a single Nav was given a shot at trying out for the crew (banter is expected!)

As it progressed I did wonder what exactly the programme was trying to prove.

chromate

8th Apr 2003, 19:08

Did they quote "altitude"? Can't remember. You have to keep in mind the target audience though and I thought it was all pretty good. Though I'm no expert myself. I did notice the rear gunner looking pretty board on the first mission though :)

Remember that thread a while back on good looking female fighter pilots. Lucy wasn't all that bad, was she ;) Muhah

Another thing (probably me being thick here!)... Why didn't they use BBMF's lanc to do the experience flight? Was it just not serviceable or something?

J.A.F.O.

8th Apr 2003, 19:56

I found the documentary parts of the programme interesting but thought that the "simulator" left a little to be desired and agree that comparing pre-OCU studes to those that formed 617 a tadge unfair.

Difar - I'd also wondered about the lack of navs (bites tongue very hard indeed), it is odd. It was nice to see NCO aircrew though, I didn't know that the RAF still admitted to owning any.

solotk

8th Apr 2003, 20:24

I thought it was very good in parts, and a lot deeper, than previous efforts.

Lots of lovely shots of the Canadian Lanc, and the RAF bods all with big grins (Well, wouldn't you?)

As for 7 hours at 100'? I seem to remember that either Micky Martin, or David Shannon, made a point of returning at low-level after bombing, the idea being that if you were that low, the Fighters had a hard time picking you up, and the gun crews couldn't react fast enough.

If anyone has ever seen the famous "Cooks Tour" Air ministry film, of a Mosquito raid deep into Germany, there was bags of very low level in that, with comments from the Navigator like "Church Steeple skipper"..

CarltonBrowne the FO

8th Apr 2003, 23:11

Never seen a Mosquito film taken over Germany, but the last time I went to the Imperial War Museum, they had a ride-in "sim" with footage of the Amiens Gaol raid... could that be the one? Worth a visit, and sooooooooo impressive.

rolling20

9th Apr 2003, 00:15

why on earth did they have the Clash or something similar playing in the background,when the original aircrew were trying to tell you about their experiences!!
i could hardly hear a word the guys were saying!

also i never knew the Lancaster was actually a LancaRster,as the narrator kept calling it!!!!!grrrrrrrr

wub

9th Apr 2003, 02:10

Maybe the UK troops should use LancaRsters to restore Laura Norder in Basra

overstress

9th Apr 2003, 03:34

I thought the whole thing was a flawed attempt at something or other. As an aviator, I didn't get the point. I'm not sure if it honoured or belittled the original crews, of which there are precious few left.

Guy Gibson's own book, for those who haven't read it, gives a far better impression.

Rattus

9th Apr 2003, 04:59

Rolling20
also i never knew the Lancaster was actually a LancaRster,as the narrator kept calling it!!!!!grrrrrrrr

I was at university with him... he's from dahn sahf!

Rattus;)

MightyGem

9th Apr 2003, 10:55

Hey guys, stop finding fault and do what I'm doing. Watching in admiration at what the original crews achieved back in '43.

tony draper

9th Apr 2003, 15:19

Theres been a spate of Dam Buster docs recently, I have watched three, I get the impression that Guy Gibson wasn't that popular among his chaps, nothing concrete or downright nasty said of course, just the odd hint in what the surviving crews say about him.
I don't suppose he was there to win a popularity contest though.

chromate

9th Apr 2003, 17:32

MightyGem, agreed!

Vick Van Guard

9th Apr 2003, 18:34

Anyone know why they had to go to Canada to fly in the Lanc, when there is one just down the road from Scampton?

solotk

9th Apr 2003, 18:46

Cost and airframe hours?

That sequence of the Lancaster landing in the twilight, Merlins popping as they were throttled back, was beautiful, spoilt only by the anti-collison strobes, shame they couldn't have taken a paintbox to that scene.

I agree, let's watch what the programme creators are trying to achieve, a sense of "being there" as opposed to hacking it to bits.

Incidentally, the rushes for next weeks programme, clearly show the crew dressed in WW2 clothing. Interestingly enough, one of them appeared to be wearing a Luftwaffe Mae West a la Gibson. So, I think they are trying to get some attention to detail points right

WebPilot

9th Apr 2003, 21:21

Maybe the programme filming schedules couldn't be fitted around PA474s display and maintainance schedule?

Random UAS Stude

9th Apr 2003, 22:07

Would you let someone only just out of multi's training on to your Lanc?

I wouldn't ...

(not that I have a Lanc in my shed...):D

WebPilot

10th Apr 2003, 00:15

"Would you let someone only just out of multi's training on to your Lanc?"

That was Spencer Flack's rationale for buying a Spit - owners would ask "Have you flown a Spit before? No? Well, you're not flying this one then!!"

akula

10th Apr 2003, 00:58

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

What about the successful sortie in wartime conditions that ended with the crew in the North Sea at night, the crew all jump out of the simulator and it's a well done from the skipper.

ALWAYS assume NEVER check

caspertheghost

10th Apr 2003, 03:30

Gotta agree, I enjoyed the show.
Did get a little pi$$ed off with the narrator and his stupid quotes about how modern day pilots can't fly without computers. Apparently we're all "cyborgs" too!
;)
Give me computer to fly my jet and I'll be only too happy........!

BEagle

12th Apr 2003, 23:55

Quite astonishingly, Channel 4 is currently (12 1552 Z) showing the original uncut version of 'The Dam Busters' - including the use of Gibson's dog's real name.

Well done to Channel 4 for showing the film in its true historical form.

The spirit of Nig ger must be wagging his tail happily, now that someone has actually had the cojones to allow his name to be uttered on public TV!

tony draper

15th Apr 2003, 05:42

I just watched the second half, and enjoyed it.
Something has always puzzled me , wouldn't a five ton cylinder rotating at 500 RPM at 90 degrees to the direction of travel have some gyroscopic effect on the aircraft, ie make it a bit reluctant to alter its direction of travel?
I have asked this question once before but I do not recall whether it was here or not, also If I got a answer, I cannot recall that either.
;)

PS. Been a few documentries about that raid these last few months thats, the first one that mentioned that one aircraft lost its bomb when it hit the sea momentarily.

bad livin'

15th Apr 2003, 07:04

Nice to see Lucy on tv, first time since I left the Yorkshire party establishment!!! Great show and very interesting I thought...

Chimbu chuckles

15th Apr 2003, 20:55

Draper...what a good question.

I think that any gyroscopic precession from one side of the bomb would be cancelled out by that from t'other side....in a turn anyway.

500 RPM is fairly slow really so perhaps not as significant as one might think at first glance.

Seems more likely that the aircraft's handling would be more ponderous overall rather than twitchy...as in turn right/pitch up etc.

Just had a quick glance through Aeroplane at the newsstand with an article on Gibson post dams raid...sad ending:(

I think comparisons between the skills of crews 1939-45 and current is rather silly...both groups were/are trained to fly the cutting edge technology of the day.

Navigation, as it was performed at the time, was performed by a full time Nav with the aid of the rest of the crew and, let's face it, not over huge distances...thus even pure DR would get you close.

A childhood mate's father flew a tour on Lancs as a rear gunner, having failed pilot's course in Canada (RAAF) due depth perception probs, and subsequently remustered as a Nav on Mossies for another 2 tours roaming Europe a dot feet on Search & Destroy freelancing. He knew Gibson and heard his last transmission.

All incredibly brave young chaps...or in the words of several vets I've met, including a several who won DFC/DSOs in Europe..."Just young".

Forget not also the vast numbers who gave their lives in accidents, either training or on ops, rather than to enemy action...I think you will find that the greatest enemy was not gunfire but inexperience...rather akin to a dramatic display of natural selection.

Chuck.

sprucemoose

15th Apr 2003, 21:34

Kind of related - does anyone know why the USN's VFA-195 (now embarked with the Kitty Hawk flying F/A-18Cs) are known as the Dambusters?

tony draper

15th Apr 2003, 23:05

Well there was one American pilot on that raid, there may have been more.

Lu Zuckerman

16th Apr 2003, 04:41

To: sprucemoose

It was the Korean Conflict which elevated the squadron's exploits to the status of legend. Flying the rugged AD-1 Skyraider from the deck of the USS Princeton, men from Attack Squadron ONE NINE FIVE (VA-195) sortied in a raid against the strategic Hwa Chon Dam. Heavily defended in a valley littered with Anti-Aircraft Artillery, the dam had defied all previous attempts at destruction by Air Force and Navy bombers. With the novel approach of using torpedoes to attack the dam, the squadron succeeded, securing a major strategic victory in the process and inspiring James Mitchener's acclaimed novel and movie The Bridges of Toko-Ri. The squadron continues to be known as the "Dambusters" to this day.

:cool:

Georgeablelovehowindia

16th Apr 2003, 08:48

tony draper: In an interview for SAGA Magazine (groan! I bought their bl--dy house insurance and they keep sending me the wretched thing in the hope I'll subscribe to it) Ray Grayston, Les Knight's flight engineer, says that the Lanc. didn't fly at all well, with Wallis's mine underneath. He attributes this to spoiling of the aerodynamics. It makes their flying on the raid even more remarkable.

Sad to see that 'Johnny' Johnson, the bomb aimer, has died in the interim between filming the programme and showing. One more gone from an ever-dwindling band of heroes...

Oh and Lu Z, so far as we're concerned, there's only THE Dam Busters. That's 617 Squadron, the Royal Air Force. As recently featured, in Gulf War 2!

attackattackattack

16th Apr 2003, 18:40

Can somebody please help. We watched our video of part II last night - it ran out at the point where they were 'just checking the figures to see if the team hit'.

Did they get it?

tony draper

16th Apr 2003, 18:48

Indeed they did, apparently the co-ordinates for a hit had been wrongly programed into the computer, they did it the hard way with pencil and paper and awarded the crew a hit.
A clear case of Deus Ex Machina. :rolleyes:

DamienB

16th Apr 2003, 19:44

I beg to disagree. Not only did they not hit the dam, they never even got to see the dam, because she killed them all on a training mission (and even that is glossing over the ditching in the previous raid they went on, which would probably have killed them all too).

But I suppose it would have been a shorter programme if they just wrapped it up after they'd had the unfortunate training accident. :rolleyes:

Oh and Drapes - from the accounts I've read turning on the motor to rotate the bomb resulted in the aircraft 'trying to shake itself to bits' to the point where instrument panels weren't readable, which makes the successful attack runs even more amazing.

tony draper

16th Apr 2003, 21:39

That documentry stated that one Lanc had problems with the calipers holding the bomb and was forced to abort, I wonder if they managed to get rid of it over the North Sea or did the pilot have to land with it still hanging on the belly?.

sprucemoose

16th Apr 2003, 21:43

Thanks Lu, you live and learn!

UncleFester

24th Apr 2003, 19:27

If any one wants to see more info about this, a recovered bomb is on display in the Yorkshire air museum at Elvington near York, together with Barnes Wallis' original catapult from the water tank experiments and a lot of other info. Looking at the bomb I can well believe it rattled the instrument panel. Even allowing for the corrosion after its sea immersion it was very crudely finished and the fuse was offset from the centre. 500 rpm on a peice of metal that size and weight would rattle your fillings as well!!

Its open 10 till 4 every day and is good value for a fiver....even for a retired truckie like me!:p

PPRuNe Pop

24th Apr 2003, 22:58

The real "mine" is to be seen at the Brooklands Museum, Weybridge, Surrey, together with a Grand Slam and a Tallboy - all invented by Barnes Wallis on his "home ground" of Vickers. If you are lucky you might even see "Spud" Boorer, BW's assistant in all the above. He joined Vickers in 1932 I think I am correct in saying. Nice guy, with the biggest hands I have ever seen.

Developing into a brilliant museum too.

MightyGem

25th Apr 2003, 09:13

Having flown the Eidersee many times trying to figure how they did their run, now I know :eek: :eek:

147

28th Apr 2003, 05:12

I am just sarting out in aviation (22 years of age) and driving my fiancee mad, Both me and me dad watched the documentary on the Dambusters and we were both fascinated by it especially the low flying and what about Barnes Wallis,s genius invention the bouncing bomb.

Best Regards

Ignition Override

29th Apr 2003, 14:27

Did most British bombers at the time have only one pilot? If so, why?

Did the RAF decide throughout the war that an injured and/or overworked solo pilot would not jeopardize the mission or the crew's chances of making it home? It must have been a huge workload (autopilot almost always operational...), even in good weather with a fairly easy target. I don't know, maybe the four-engine bombers had relatively experienced pilots. It can be challenging for us to continue in our old twin-turbofan planes if the auto- pressurization fails, IF the FO volunteers to do it after I suggest on climbout that we could turn around, with his eyes and hands on the system for most of the flight: even in good weather, with no flak (Flieger Abwehr Kanone) or engines catching on fire while an electrical system is going out.

I read an excellent article on a very fast, heavily armed British twin-engine plane (not the Mosquito), which was at least once used against ships in Norway's steep fjords, but forgot the name. The plane was not the most attractive (similar to a smaller He-111), but what speed and firepower! The Beaufighter?! :E

Some very unique films are unearthed at times on the Discovery 'Wings' Channel over here. :)