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2FarCanard
4th Apr 2003, 11:38
Can anyone shed some light on an apparent door vs Aerobridge incident on one of the A330S at Sydney this morning ?

Just curious if it did happen and how it happened.

Wirraway
4th Apr 2003, 12:33
from Sydney Airport Message Board:

I was on QF409 SYD MEL 0700 0825 this morning FRI 4th April, 2003 (A330-200). During pushback the aircraft suffered some damage to 2nd passenger door on the left side. The aircraft was at Gate 11 (dual aerobridge)
The aircraft was set for push back prior to doors being set to Auto. Unusually the passenger door was then reopened for additional material to be carried onboard. With the aerobridge still attached the push back commenced and continued for about 5-10 seconds before being halted. The result appeared to be some minor damage to both aircraft and aerobridge.

I am pleased to say there were no injuries to Cabin Crew, Ground Crew or Passengers. The Qantas Cabin crew onboard acted professionally throughout. The Captain advised the flight would be cancelled. Passengers were then transferred onto other flights.
======
G'day Chris
Apparently, Load Control realised the aircraft was out of trim, and asked for the door to be reopened by the ground staff (presume so they could give the crew the new loadsheet... although, having said that, wouldnt they normally be updated via ACARS?). I guess the Tech crew were unaware, and commenced pushback. Whoops!

Regards

Luke/PER
==============================================

SixStarAnsett
4th Apr 2003, 12:36
I don't have any idea of what happened in the incident, but I can honestly tell you that if I was a betting fellow and they had a line on it at Star City, I would've put my money on the 330 coming second.

Sorry, I know it's a [email protected] post to submit

SixStarAnsett
...well, I'm an idiot, take pity on me............:sad:

2FarCanard
4th Apr 2003, 13:42
Thanks Wirraway,

Much ado about nothing then. When i was first told they said the door was ripped off!

Tankengine
4th Apr 2003, 20:31
We will be seeing this in CRM courses as a repeat "swiss cheese" model, also some personel in firing line over SOPs.
Captain not informed by ground staff or CSM re door reopened, change in loadsheet trim requiring pax movement after acars final loadsheet, engineer not notice aerobridge reconnected?, and crew not see door light/ eicas msg [not know scarebus system]
The "astronauts" ding their first. :rolleyes:

airsupport
5th Apr 2003, 05:38
Not familiar with the A330, however IF (I repeat IF) it is the same as the A300-600/A310 the Crew will NOT get a warning. :(

On the A300-600/A310, once the Crew initiate MES mode (main engine start) other messages, yes even door messages, are inhibited. :(

Compass nearly ripped off a door in the same circunstances, and the Crew did not even know until told, why the pushback was stopped. NOT their fault, they had NO indication.
:rolleyes:

airsupport
5th Apr 2003, 07:08
I believe it is called "French Logic"...... :rolleyes: ;)

TheNightOwl
5th Apr 2003, 07:56
Assuming a level of commonality with the rest of the Airbus types, would not the DOORS page come up on ECAM, with the offending door highlighted in amber? Is this inhibited during pushback/start procedures?

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.

:confused:

Pimp Daddy
5th Apr 2003, 08:27
They are doing well with the A330s - I saw them practising the tug and towbarless pushback off B23 in MEL the other day.

Heard a toot and looked up to see A330 + 2engineers wandering down the pushback line with tug (and attached towbar) stopped, tooting to get someones attention. Didn't look like a shear pin as all the parts of the bar were there, must remember to attach the towbar to the nose leg next time.

airsupport
5th Apr 2003, 09:24
TNO,

As I said I am NOT familiar with the A330, also NOT the A340 or A320 series.

However, trust me ;) , that is definitely how it is on the A300-600 and A310.

Once the Crew go to MES, all other warnings except those relating to the engine start are inhibited. You could open every door on the Aircraft, and even deploy the slides, the Crew will NOT know until they finish the engine start, then they would get a few messages. ;)

That is how Airbus designed the Aircraft, when queried about the incident at Compass, Airbus said "why would anyone be silly enough to open a door during pushback?". :rolleyes:

Best regards,

airsupport.

D.Lamination
6th Apr 2003, 10:28
:p "Cockpit to Ground - Doors off at time 15!":}

bulkhead
6th Apr 2003, 12:00
Hey guys thats nothing!!

Recently flew back to Oz on a CX A340 and reported a 'flapping' sound I couldn't identify to the crew.
They couldnt (or wouldnt) confirm the cause.
Sitting down towards the rear the noise became quite obvious at slow speeds.
Turned out a slide had deployed post despatch and was flapping in the slipstream!!!!!!

Now call me a liar but its true and was reported by the crew to the authorities according to my CX contacts.

PS: Not being an Airbus jock I thought their EICAM would report such a thing as it indicates when doors are armed etc.

Eastwest Loco
6th Apr 2003, 14:14
Can anyone advise if it was the first A330 delivered? If so it continues the hoodoo for the #1 unit of a given fleet carried over from TN and thankfully diminishing in seriousness as the years have passed.

Vickers Viscount 700 - VH-TVA - Lost at Mangalore on a training flight attempting 3 engine departure - killing several of TN operational staff passengering on the trial. Hull loss before entering service.

Fokker F27-100 VH-TFB - Lost off Mackay with all on board including a school group - allegedly bounceback off cloud cover onto a flat sea of the runway lights in very unuaual weather conditions - will never be known thoug. TFB was first delivered as TFA was being retrofitted with weather radar nose cone.

Boeing 727-76 - VH-TJA - Removed 8 feet from the vertical stabiliser of a CPA DC8 at Mascot on departure. Operating skipper was Jimmy James. Boeing experts came to Australia and inspected all flight data. The aeroplane had no way of getting airborne according to rhem, but Jimmy did it and returned safely to Sydney with $250,000 damage to the nose structure.

Airbus A300-B4 - VH-TAA - Aeroplane was being used for ground staff training at MEL during a pilot strike. Faulty pallet loading equipment ran away from the trainee and a fork lift prong ruptured one of the main airframe spars. I believe this was before it even entered service.

If this is the progression,it seems to be a dying hoodoo. Lets hope this is the case.

Best all

EWL

Carburettor Heat
6th Apr 2003, 16:16
From the sounds of things it was EBA....

HotDog
6th Apr 2003, 17:03
Come now bulkhead, a slide deployed post despatch? You must all have been wearing oxygen masks all the way to Oz. I think you'll find the flapping sound was a door safety strap that got caught outside the door. :rolleyes:

Rabbit
6th Apr 2003, 17:19
For those not qualified on 320/330/340. The manufacturers SOP and checklist requires that doors be checked closed before proceeding to eng start. The "DOORS" page is not inhibited as suggested but is replaced by the "ENG" page when "IGN START" is selected. To start pushback without checking doors closed is a breakdown in cockpit procedures. Maybe QF will need to look at their procedures. Some years ago I observed potentially the same occurence with one of their 747's departing Singapore. Fortunately on that occasion the bridge was retracted.

As for the comment from "bulkhead" about flying with a slide deployed - I think not. The ECAM in the cockpit would be making all sorts of noises etc. The PIMs in the cabin will also be giving indications and besides with a slide deployed the door will not close. Therefore, I will call you "liar" as you seem to be demanding.

Have a nice day

B787
6th Apr 2003, 17:35
I do believe Cathay did have a slide deploy recently in flight. It was on the new A340-600 which has the escape slide for the overwing exit built into the wing not the door. This has somehow been faulty and deployed automatically.

A passenger did bring a banging sound to the attention of the flight crew. I do believe the Second officer went back to look and could also hear the noise. Later inspection from the crew showed that the slide had been ripped off.

Avago
6th Apr 2003, 17:40
As a matter of fact, there have been some incidents on the A340-600 where the overwing slide assembly has separated from the aircraft in-flight. My understanding is that these slides are not attached to the overwing door, but are contained in an exterior compartment near the aft edge of each wing. Somehow or other, the whole lot departed the aircraft in-flight.

Oops, B787 beat me to it!

Eastwest Loco
6th Apr 2003, 18:16
Good!

If it was EBA the hoodoo has weakened further and is over for the A330.

EWL

airsupport
6th Apr 2003, 18:43
Rabbit,

IF you mean what I said? :confused:

I did say I was NOT familiar with the A330, A340 or A320.

I assure you the A300-600 and A310 are as I stated. I thought maybe they used the same logic on the others.

The incident at Compass, where a door was nearly ripped off, came about because after all the doors were closed, and bridge was moving away, Aircraft was cleared to pushback. After checking door indications, the Crew initaited engine start, which INHIBITS door indications, and just about every indication unless it relates to engine start. The traffic person then reached over and opened the door again, luckily the pushback was stopped just in time, however the Crew were not even aware of the problem until told.

Airbus later confirmed this was as designed. As the engines are normally started on the ground, they purposely inhibit all other warnings during start.

It is similar to lots of other Aircraft where many indications are inhibited during takeoff, until the Aircraft reaches 100 or 200 feet altitude.

I am surprised that the A330 and A340 are not similar to the A300-600/A310, but I will take your word for it if you are familiar with these Aircraft.

Best regards,

airsupport.

Pole Vaulter
7th Apr 2003, 16:22
My understanding of the A320 systems are that if a door were opened during start up you would get an aural warning and a Master Warning on the glareshield plus an ECAM message "doors" would appear on the upper screen.
Normally at the same time the lower screen would bring up the system schematic with all the doors on it and the open door in amber. The last step may be inhibited during engine startup.
I would presume the 330 would be at least as complete as the 320 if not better.

DoorL1
7th Apr 2003, 18:27
I believe it was EBC.

airsupport
8th Apr 2003, 08:20
Now we are talking A320. :rolleyes:

As I said I am not that familiar with them, I have worked on them and flown on them, and the engine start on them is normally fully automatic, the computers virtually start the engines for you, so probably on them you do get a warning? It wouldn't matter, as the Crew (or Engineer) don't NEED to watch ECAM so much.

Maybe the A330 and A340 are like the A320, as I said I don't know.

The A300-600 and A310 are however more conventional Aircraft, where the Crew (or Engineer) NEED to closely monitor the start as they are in ontrol, NOT a computer. For this reason Airbus designed the systems so that you will not be distracted by other things while starting the engines. :D

Rabbit
8th Apr 2003, 16:49
Pole Vaulter...You are right on the button. Same logic for A340/330.

Re the 340-600 escape chute mentioned, yes there is one similar to that on the A320 for the overwing exits. These chutes are located outside the cabin in the wing faring. However if as the previous writer indicates that it was a normal door chute the that is impossible.

Have a nice day

flightfocus
8th Apr 2003, 20:14
Not 100% on the A330, but on the C172 I fly if the door opens during start up you get a very loud 'wooshing' aural warning followed by sore knuckles from the instrucotrs big stick.....:E :E :8

Fluke
9th Apr 2003, 08:44
We have an OEB on the A330 requiring the A/SKID & NW STRG to be switched off before pushback. This obscures the Doors ECAM which would normally be displayed before engine start and requires a clearing of ECAM and STATUS to ensure the doors are closed.

It is a messy proceedure and bound to hide warnings and checks prior to starting engines.

When will I get my DDRMI back, Mr Airbus.
Nice to hear Compass mentioned on PPRUNE.

kimoki
9th Apr 2003, 11:40
For all the Boeing boys out there criticising the Airbus - answer this question:

Which Boeing models will give you a door open warning message prior to engine start?

Bottom line is all doors closed and ready for pushback and then release brakes and push back - AFTER engineer/mechanic makes sure all aerobridges and equipment are clear.

So give it a rest!

Ultralights
9th Apr 2003, 15:39
Saw the Aircraft today in H96. It is EBA! Door 2 is missing! and has suffered substantial damage, (all casting broken) and airbus are still trying to figure out how to fix it! the door is nothing but scrap metal now. not only that, the Aerobridge contacted the Fuselage in 2 places between Main entry door 1 and 2. both requiring good size fusealge skin repairs approx 2 ft diam. nice good head sized holes! and not to mention some cabin interior components requiring repair! sad thing is
Airbus have no idea how to fix it.!!!!!! there is not even a repair scheme for the holes in the over head locker door!



if it was the Boeing Model the Airbuses are replacing! then this could not have happened!!! B767 door open and retract INSIDE the fusealage.

Time Out
1st Mar 2004, 13:14
here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=569)

Buster Hyman
1st Mar 2004, 13:44
Well...in my day...:rolleyes: ...once DCBA was done, we never returned the bridge unless given the okay from the gingerbeer!!!

I dunno...these yung-uns at the airports nowadays!:rolleyes: :}

TheNightOwl
2nd Mar 2004, 12:37
Onya, Buster!!:D :D

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

VR-HFX
2nd Mar 2004, 17:07
HD

Cathay have had one that I know about and Virgin one overwing slide deployment on the 346. Both shortly after takeoff. In both cases the a/c returned and we can be thankful that there was no elevator/empenage interference.

Cathay have also had a main gear replacement on the 346 in Sydney after a 'heavy' landing about 2 months ago.

The most recent bar survey indicates that about 40% of folk flying the Bus don't like it. I draw no conclusions from that other than to say the figure for the 744 is 0%.

FWIW

Chris Higgins
2nd Mar 2004, 20:22
No it is conceivable. A USAir 767 was asked by Gatwick Tower if they were evacuating after landing. They replied, "What...no?"

Pax said they had seen an overwing slide for a couple of hours and thought it was new procedure.

VTM
3rd Mar 2004, 00:50
Some safety strap eh hotdog:*

jtr
3rd Mar 2004, 01:08
A friend was operating on the CX 346 that popped a slide in flight. Cabin monitoring system was giving the ISM all sorts of strange indications. Flight deck informed of strange noise. Noise stopped after a short time. Flight continues to SFO (or LAX, one or t'other) None the wiser. Haven't read about it since.

SydGirl
3rd Mar 2004, 04:24
If the safety straps are anything like the A320 then they are retractable and it would be pretty much impossible to get them "stuck" in the door frame and flap about in the breeze.

SG
:)

Orville
3rd Mar 2004, 04:40
Interesting side issue to EBA door, the A/C must be jinxed. Engineers in Melbourne nearly ripped of Entry door with mobile steps a few months later, requiring major structural repair, and then a few months later a hole the size of a 50 cent piece was found punched right through the fuselage fwd of door L2. The interesting thing with the last incident was it had gone unnoticed for possibly a number of flights. Qantas EBA's have always been a thorn in their side.

Bundy
4th Mar 2004, 07:28
Eastwest Loco,
A300 B4 - VH TAA entered service approx 1982, (first A300 delivered) pilots dispute was 1989 so not damaged prior to entering service. Sounds good though...