Electronic Strips

[BEXIL160]

Info / Discussion time dear colleagues...(yes, you too TT!)

To continue....

I'm interested in the use of Electronic Strips, the good points, the bad points and the ugly. I'm particularly interested in opinions from anyone who recently stopped using paper and started using the electronics. How easy was it, does it make the job any easier? etc etc.

One particular question. Do the electronics have any advantages over paper?

This is primarily about AREA ops, but do any APP or TWR units use electronics?

Opinions, info please.

Best rgds
BEX:)

[ferris]

INHO;
Of course there are advantages to electronic strips, or else they wouldn't be used! Agreed, most of them relate to perceived cost savings.....................

Advantage; you can update information instantly- everybody down the line is notified of re-routes etc immediately.
Disadvantage; information can change without you realising it. Strips can disappear, or appear, due to a re-route etc.

It fundamentally changes the way you do the job.
Advantage; you spend a lot more time looking at the screen, because there are no more strips to update and shuffle (they do it themselves).
Disadvantage; keeping the data up to date and accurate can be very distracting and time consuming. It is much harder to plan- your controlling becomes a lot more reactionary. If you do lose the screen, you are f**k*d (depending on contingency arrangements). Allegedly failure-proof systems fail alarmingly more often than advertised. Your systems for processing traffic will become very rigid, as anything non-standard becomes too hard.

I'm sure there's more, but I'll let others have a go.

[BEXIL160]

Thanks Ferris...

Agreed about the sharing of info bit. This already happens at LACC on the planners EFS display.

I'm curious about the ease / difficulty of entering headings/levels/speeds on the electronics. Is this something that gets easy or more natural with practice? Is highlighting possible RADAR conflictions on the strips easy? (I do this now by moving my paper strips about to suit me )

I've been given the impression by some of my colleagues that Electronic strips are something engineers dreamed up with their usual promises of cost savings and efficiency. The actual benefits seem dubious.

Paper still seems to be much more flexible and doesn't disappear or freeze if the power supply is interupted.... But I am trying v hard not to be a Luddite, and am trying to keep an open mind.

Rgds BEX

[ferris]

You tend not to use strips for the 'hot' info like headings. That would go in the data block. The strips are time consuming to manipulate. You tend to use all the graphical interface tools much more eg. re-routing via the mouse and map function. Typing as little as possible. As I said, the way you do it fundamentally changes. Highlighting conflictions on strips? Forget it. You will become totally screen focussed. The strips end up being almost not used at all. You will develop another method of highlighting- such as actually highlighting the data blocks.
You do get much faster as you use it. The trouble is, we were pretty much learning it and using at the same time (and in a fairly quiet environment).

Having said all that, I think most people end up preferring the electronic version. Once it's been debugged and you are fully familiar with it.

[Llamapoo]

Although I can't provide a perspective on actually using electronic strips in anger, I do think the LACC electronic strips could be better. They are an attempt to provide an exact facsimile of the old paper strips on the screen. Then they tried to figure out how to add some electronic functionality to them.

A better approach to the design would have been to understand what ATCOs do with paper strips and how they do it (e.g. some information may not need to be constantly displayed). The appearance and manipulation of the electronic strips should have reflected this (although this means that the electronic strips may not have looked so similar to paper strips). Given the training you had to undergo anyway, a change in the appearance of the electronic strips to result in more effective ways of working wouldn't have been a hard pill to swallow.

AND with an alternative design for electronic strips maybe things could have been made a bit easier to read (stop me before... oh alright, I'll get me coat:E).

[BEXIL160]

All good info. Thank you Ferris and Thank you Llamapoo.

The LACC Electronic Strips aren't used by the Tactical, only the Planner and are more of a "Things to do" tool rather than a Separation Tool (and YES, they could have been better).

I'm more interested in how a RADAR controller might use an Electronic Strip display. Ferris has mentioned that "Hot" data (Hdg/lvl/spd) gets entered on the Track block. Nice Idea, but isn't the tube cluttered enough already? And as for "planning" your moves before the a/c call you, as Ferris has also mentioned you might end up controlling by reaction, not pro-action. Not good IMHO.

More comments?

rgds BEX

[BDiONU]

Bex,
Somewhere on the company intranet there's a demo of the French Digital Strips, could point you to it if I were at work! :-) Also my Dept. has been looking at the concept for some time, but the jury is still out! Currently there are some Human Factors people at LACC doing the Demo of the new and (hopefully) improved TDB's. They are heavily involved in the iFACTS program and could give you a good idea of what the proposals are for electronic strips on that. To my mind they are too small and fiddly but what do I know!?

[BEXIL160]

Thanks Take3....

I have seen the HF people and their proposals. Some of them I like, some less so, most are an improvement. Curiously enough the subject of electronic strips came up but they were very loathe to speak about it. Dunno why. Except could it possibly be that they don't want the end user involved for fear that we might not like what they're doing? ;) I understand some people are VERY protective of THEIR pet projects. Or maybe I've got it all wrong? I do hope so.

Anyway. I think the use of Electronic Strips deserves more discussion and I'd like to know a bit more about the subject.

Thanks for the pointer about the demo. I shall look when I am next at work.

Best rgds
BEX

[garp]

In Maastricht UAC we got rid completely of the strips some ten years ago. The strips were only used on the planning side at that stage.For some people it was a dramatic change, some of the older guys trying to write on the screens, but in the end nobody would ever think about going back to strips. In fact all the controllers who have started training after 92 (or was it 93) have never worked with strips in a live environment. I wonder what's taking you so long to implement a stripless environment in the UK?

[ferris]

I was about to go into the same thing- reinventing the wheel. Why?
It's been proven in several places that it works, that it can be done. Sure, it's a culture shock, but it can be done.
And at the end of the day, these things aren't being done for the controller's benefit. They are the first steps on the path to automation. Have you seen how well the automated, stripless environments dovetail with Data Link? With tools like 'conflict probes' and 'short term conflict alerts', who needs to plan? (ooooohhh, a bit contraversial?) There isn't much planning going on in saturated upper environments. Surely with ADSB and next generation ACAS, the enroute controller's days are numbered? I reckon we'll be really lucky to get another ten years.

[Plazbot]

thats ok ferris, wont you be starring in another series of Seinfeld in 10 years....;)

[Scott Voigt]

Bexil;

We have talked about some of the stuff that we are doing ad nauseum <G>, but as a refresher, We have the electronic conflict probe / flight planner called URET ( User Request Evaluation Tool.) Probably the thing that most controllers like about it the most is that you don't have to mark strips when you have it. The other is that you don't get the duty of passing around strips, since we don't use ATSA's here.

From looking at it and talking with people, the conflict probe is not any better than a set of good strips when you get out to the 20 minute range. There are just too many ifs to be able to figure out if they are going to be a deal or not. You just look at it, and use it to know that you are going to have to watch a couple of aircraft closely.

What we have been doing is getting the stage ready to move more of the information that the radar controller (tactical in your parlance) needs on the glass in front of them. Our next software drop called BCC-21 will bring into use the fourth line of the data block which you can use if you like. There will be heading and speed control information in there which will pass from sector to sector and serve as appropriate coordination, so we will not have to call other sectors with that information ( We aren't allowed to tell the aircraft to contact London with speed and heading <G>, not that it isn't done.) There will also be an area for free text but that has to be coordinated. There are also going to be three buttons that we have on our DSR Interactive Keypad or (DIK) that you can toggle between type aircraft, destination and one other thing which slips by my mind right now. It is a on and then off as soon as you release it, a rather nice feature. There are other things that are planned for future releases too...

A few years ago, Eurocontrol had a little French gentleman that they had hidden away behind the main display. He had a little system which was a video interface for flight plan information. He called it digistrips. It was WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!! I saw very good uses for it in Enroute, Approach and tower... If the interface could work, it took out most of the problems with digital strips, which is the interface with the computer to let it know what we are doing with the aircraft. This interface mimiced <sp> what we did with strips, so the interface was very fast. However it had the advantages of automatically updating the rest of the software and passing the information on as soon as it was entered. It also allowed for automatic distribution of the flight plan information. It was very well thought out and I felt expandable to ALL of the different types of ATC.

Oh, as soon as I get done with all of my travel, I will make some copies of what I have promised you and get it off to you. It will help explain some of the stuff that we have been talking about. I have been having fun with the NERC stuff. Been showing a few folks what it is that you do. I don't know just how well our system would work for all of you though since we do business quite a bit different than you do on the Planner position.

regards

Scott

[ferris]

THESE PRETZELS ARE MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

My personal findings from working in an old-fashioned paper strip system for 3 years, then electronic strips for 3 years and now back to a not quite so old-fashioned paper strip system, is that strips are a pain in the arse.

I found initially going from paper to electronic strips was traumatic to say the least, like having your security blanket taken off you as a 3 year old. But once you realised the screen told you all you needed to know you found yourself ignoring the electronic strips anyway, and only scanning them because old approach dinosaurs insisted on using them to comunicate flow to us. Other than that they were pretty obsolete.

Going back to paper strips has been even more traumatic cos I find myself controlling and doing all I have to do, and then "fixing up" the strips after the fact. I would love a completely stripless system with extendable data blocks on labels, so when you need to see the route info etc. you can click for it then make it disappear when no longer needed.

PS Ferris any more resignations while I've been away.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Or Should I say Art Vandelay of Vandelay Industries. Have to admit I never saw the likeness but now you mention it.

[BEXIL160]

Thanks to all for the info....

Not sure I totally agree that the controllers days are numbered. the task WILL change, as will the technology.

So it looks very much like Electronics for the future. I suppose the trick will be making the "user interface" as friendly as possible. A challenge.

Thanks again for all your replies. I have to say that I get a lot more USEFUL stuff here than at work.

Best rgds
BEX

[Lon More]

Don't think of it as electronic strips, see it as an electronic data display. It is much more versatile than paper strips. And as pointed out in another thread, the info on strips can be wrong,or even altered by the unscrupulous.
At Maastricht the combinations of data that can be displayed vary from a list of callsigns about to enter your sector sorted by time, level or position to a full blown description of each flight, eventually down to galley oven temperature when data link is 100% operational:O It's up to you how much you take.
Seriously, the data link, already used by the airlines for maintainance and Ops., will be used by us to update the flight plan processing by providing real time info on conditions aloft - this is neccessary for accurate mid-term conflict detection- as well as info such as heading, airspeed/Mach number, RFL, TOD, etc..
It's already active in the States and on the N. Atlantic and will become active at Maastricht shortly. A large number of European States have signed up for it, with the exception of the UK.

[Llamapoo]

In case anyone's interested, here's the link to the French (CENA) digistrip system (mentioned on page 1):

Digistrips (http://www.tls.cena.fr/divisions/PII/digistrips/index_e.html)

:8

[BEXIL160]

Llamapoo...
I've just watched the 6 min video from the site and must say that "DigiStrips" look VERY VERY Good. This is exactly the sort of user interface that I had in mind. Actually it all looked too good to be true, so what are the drawbacks? Are any of the French Centres using the equipment? The demo looks like PARIS TP sector.

Take3....
Is this the sort of thing that NATS could use? If not why not? ('cos it's French doesn't count). We're supposed to be using COTS stuff aren't we?

LonMore....
Yes, when Datalink really becomes widespread (and you're quite right, it's here now) some sort of electronic interface is going to become a necessity.... for all of us. Thats one of the reasons that I'd quite like to get up and running with some sort of Electronic "data display" sooner rather than later. It's the form that it should take that I wonder about. The DigiStrip example builds on what we are already familiar with, rather than a completely different presentation (NB "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "Better" or indeed "Worse")

Best rgds
BEX

P.S. Can I urge you all to look at the link above and view the VIDEO (it's about half way down the Web page).

[garp]

I just had a look at the video. To me it seems to show an unability to let go of the past and take on board a completely new philosophy. It is probably developped for Centres like Aix where the average age is quite high and people would be very reluctant to do the work without strips. The advantage of being able to display your electronic messages on the radar screen is huge, you don't have to take your eyes of the screen and refocus every time. Overhere there are even more and more people who just do not display any electronic messages (on the executive controller position) on the screen but just use the mouse to obtain information out of every label. A lot of 'mouse work' but once you've got used to it it is extremely convenient.
Bexil, you don't really believe that Nats will use something developped in France, do you? Short Term Conflict Alert was fully available to all service providers in Europe since the mid-eighties but still every country wanted something of their own. If I'm not mistaken it was introduced in the UK in 91 and I remember very well the article in some UK newspaper who claimed it to be a 'première'...it was shortly thereafter rectified.

[BEXIL160]

Garp..

No, I doubt very much whether we'll see ANYTHING in NATS either not invented here, or without origins in the USA. Had a more Euro-sympathetic Government been in power in the late 1980s the NERC fiasco would not have happened and I would probably be sitting in front of equipment similar to that now used French or EuroControl Centres.

"Inability to let go of the past". Maybe, but this assumes that the past was bad or wrong and that new ideas / concepts are "better". Personally I like evolutionary systems development rather than revolutionary, there's usually less risk involved.

The point about taking your eyes off the screen and refocussing is a valid one.

Using the mouse to get info from each track / target sounds very reminiscent of the wonderful Track ball systems that were used at Eastern / Border Radar to obtain SSR Info..... But that WAS a long time ago:D (yes I got used to that as well)

Thanks for the comments. Any more?

Rgds BEX

[information_alpha]

To give a different angle.....

one of my worries about EFPS is the loss of the assistants. The unit I work at has assistants with on average around 15 years experience. That can be invaluable in some situations and it is a shame that it will be lost.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

In relation to the assistants. In Australia when we went into TAAATS and the electronic strip display, we got rid of probably 70% of the assistants keeping the remainder to check flight plans etc. that were rejected by the system, and distribute info during upgrade/system degraded mode times (early days almost daily upgrade and related degraded state).

While it was a shame to lose a lot of the assistants, its the way of the world. Some had the skills to train up as controllers and we didn't lose their experience, and on the whole the most experienced of the rest stayed on doing the tasks mentioned above.

BTW I can't believe how slow the UK and the US have been in the uptake of a modern ATC system, is the reason for this political, fiscal, stubbornnesss or all of the above?

[garp]

Please ANSA, no to critical on the British, after all they've invented ATC and we would probably be sweeping the streets if it wasn't for them :)

Garp
(Is it true that RVSM and/or 8.33 spacing is not yet in place in the US?)

[ferris]

It's called SARPS. Sheer Arrogance and waste of Resources by ans Provider's Syndrome.
It originated in Australia in the late eighties, when the manager's elected to reject available off-the-shelf technology and instead pi$$ away unbelievable amounts of money reinventing the wheel. After 10 years ended up with something remarkably similar, and a HUGE bill. Of course some little empires sprang up along the way, requiring further expense to dismantle. If only all that time and money had been spent improving the available technology?
It seems SARPS has now spread (obviously spread by aeroplanes). The cure is to pretend that you are now a business, deny all knowledge of anything that happened before you 'corporatised', and attack the staff in order to retrieve all the lost money- after all, this is now a business!

The irony is that if mangers in real business performed like this, they would have very short careers. Doesn't seem to work like that in the 'business' of air traffic.

[contact_tower]

It originated in Australia in the late eighties, when the manager's elected to reject available off-the-shelf technology and instead pi$$ away unbelievable amounts of money reinventing the wheel.

Same problem here as well, why someone in admin. thinks a small country like Norway need to invent a new system is stupid! Because we have so special conditions here (yeah right....) we cannot use systems designed for high load inviroments, it might be too good for us. :yuk:

[flower]

Reading the posts it would seem that there may be advantages in an en-route environment for the use of electronic strips.
Have they been used sucessfully however in an approach environment and at at Tower.
I cannot see how they will improve or aid mywork in Approach ,inparticular the LARS service, I would spend a considerable amount of my time imputting info as im sure it would be used as an excuse to rid the unit of ATSAs leaving me less time to actually control.
If anyone can tell me different I would be grateful to hear.

[BEXIL160]

Southern Hemisphere colleagues....

One of the few things that is done more or less the same the world over is The bad management of ATC. It's not unique to the Antipodes, but pehaps we in the UK can take some credit for setting the Standard of incompetence. ;) It's only a small boast, but hey, we do have to be first at something. :)

Flower....
Nope, can't see how electronics would help much in a LARS environment either. However, I can see the DigiStrips example being quite useful in TMAs and larger airports where digitised info is useful to all.... I'm thinking of things like stack TV.

Rgds BEX

[Plazbot]

Reading the posts it would seem that there may be advantages in an en-route environment for the use of electronic strips. Flower


In Australia the TMAs in Brisbane, Melbourne, and Sydney (plus some more that noone here will have ever heard of) use electronic strips. They may or may not be the best but they have not gone back be it for whatever reason.

Not being an expert but having had the privilege to have seen the Canadian college 360 degree tower sim, they use electronic strips there as well, a touch screen number, very nice, plus the Hornet doing Beat Ups on the cab.....Giddy Up.

[Llamapoo]

I take some of the points above about Digistrips being for people afraid of leaving the past, but there are some excellent interface ideas. And it's worth remembering that paper strips offer a flexibility that is impossible in any electronic system (due to the need to tell the programme what it's meant to do in advance through some software language).

The main advantage of digistrips, as I see it, is that it exploits as close to a 'natural language' as it can: that of writing. The only more natural language is speaking, and claims about the accuracy of voice recognition don't seem to stand up in ATC. We are all taught to write from the age of 3 (:confused: ) and, although our handwriting may be bad, we can all do it without really thinking about it.

Contrast writing with using a mouse and keyboard. Writing will allow you to directly interact with the object of interest, so you could write in the box and then hit 'enter': a total of two actions. Mouse and keyboard, whatever the electronic display may look like or do, you must move the mouse to the correct field, select it, enter the data (maybe having to hunt, one fingered, for the appropriate keys on the keyboard), then hit 'enter' (or move the mouse again to 'OK', then select 'OK'). This task may possibly involve up to 9 discrete actions (let's assume worst case, and inputting a five character waypoint). Both these examples assume that the correct field was available in the first place.

There's also the question of abstraction (psycho-babble - sorry). The action you take with writing is not really mediated by anything else; with mouse and keyboard you are manipulating some agent of language, without any associated proprioceptive (:eek: ) feedback (unless you are a skilled typist). This type of feedback lets you know when you've done something wrong, even while you are still doing it (how many of us have written something and realised it was wrong before we'd finished it, without looking at it, just through the .feeling of writing it?).

One danger of increasing computing capabilities is that we load everything onto the visual channel, and we become saturated and unable to do more work and start to make mistakes. By finding solutions that spread this load onto the auditory, verbal and motor channels, we can do more work, quicker, with less errors. The French have tried this with Digistrips, others try it with speech recognition, still others try eye movements or electro-chemical sensors on the head, arms, etc.

Whatever the electronics may look like, and whatever they may do, the important thing is that it exploits the controller's natural strengths, and does not try to change them, unless there is demonstrable benefit in doing so. The belief that electronics are better than humans so humans should fit around the electronics won't apply to ATC for a while.

But NATS couldn't go for Digistrips...they're French!!!;)

Sorry for the long message (that's HF for you). :rolleyes: :bored:

[BEXIL160]

Llamapoo

Thanks for the HF input. You've put into words what I had intuitively thought :eek:

As for NATS not even looking at the system, sadly I tend to agree, BUT WHY NOT? The system is "Commercial Off-the Shelf" (COTS) which is exactly what we are supposed to be making much greater use of. Could it possibly be a case of "Empire Protection" (Not invented at ATMDC), or possibly Xenophobia?

About time somebody stood up and advocated the best tools for the job, regardless of their origin...... there goes another pig past the window:rolleyes:

Best rgds BEX

P.S. Does Llamapoo have origins in Ontario?;)

[NERC Dweller]

I watched the video of the digi-strips and they are very impressive, but I got the feeling they are only experimental at the moment.

There are a couple of engineering questions.

Where is the data being stored?

With a paper strip you write on it, and it becomes a permanent record. With a digi-strip it is stored by the computer. What happens if the computer fails? I assume a copy of the data is kept on another machine.

What kind of computer interface does it have?

To call this product COTS is stretching the term a bit. It will need extensive tailoring to interface to your systems which will in effect make it bespoke. Of course there will also be the changes enforced on the FDP system to support it.

Anyone know how tailorable the look of the strips is?

On the general subject of Electronic Strips, what are the fallback modes on the systems that are fielded operationally, i.e. what happens if your electronics goes down?

[Llamapoo]

Aaaaah Ontario. Where April means 6 inches of ice pellets sitting on a sheen of frozen water (also known as ice). However, it does mean that the ATCOs (at least at YYZ) get periodic lulls in the traffic when they can't clear the runways.:ugh:

At least a frozen llamapoo is easier to pick out of the gutter!:suspect:

[Scott Voigt]

For those who spoke out against the format of digistrips and not being able to "let go" of the old. I was completely letting go of the OLD paper world and happy to do so. What I want though is something that I can use and interface with that is faster than many keyboard entries or mouse clicks. I have found very little in the keyboard or even the mouse world that is faster than what I could do with a pencil. That has been one of the draw backs of some automation.

Now, that said, I don't see this as being used by the radar controller unless of course they don't have a planner. I see this as an interface to the computer and nothing more. The computer and long term conflict probe are working under the covers as it were and posting all of the data on whatever sort of interface you decide to use. I liked what I saw with digistrips not because it looked like strips. It can look like ANYTHING as long as the data that I need is easy to read AND easy to manipulate. That is all that I care about. Don't get caught up in the "it looks like strips, that's why they like it." All I care about is getting to the data easily and doing something with it. Something that is going to save me time. I want it all updated automatically and then get the info passed on to others that will need it.

For GARP. The US right now isn't using RVSM, but it has nothing to do with ATC not being able to. It has to do with the user not being ready to use it. You have to remember that we have a LOT of aviation over here and most of it is General Aviation. Between the GA folks some of the older commercial aircraft ( All hushkitted or reengined.) and the frieghters, we have a lot of airframes that would need to be upgraded to be able to meet RVSM standards. The industry has not been rushing to embrace it for the most part due to the cost of doing so. We are expecting to go to it in the next few years, but it has nothing to do with the FAA not being ready to do it.

As to 8.33 spacing in the US, we don't see that as being the way that we want to go. That is a temporary fix. The folks in Europe knew that when they went to it. You are going to run out of freqs with this scheme in the next couple of decades and will have to come up with another new radio scheme to keep up. The FAA has been working on something called NEXCOM to meet our needs for the future. It is going to work on multiplex radio schemes which are used both in the military and emergency services in differing fashions. Again, the user here has many aircraft that would have to be outfitted and they have a very large voice on what they want... We try to listen.

Now, as to ancient equipment, well we aren't all that ancient anymore at most of our facilities. All 20 of our enroute centers or is that centres <G>? have the new DSR (Display System Replacement) system in place and operational. We are also in the process of replacing all of the 20 X 20 Sony color displays with the BARCO ISIS display. We are indeed still running on the older HOST software. It is long in tooth with the inherant problems with stuff written for 80K of core memory as well as the limitations of the Basic Assembly Language and Jovial. But it has been added to over the last couple of decades and it bears no resemblance to what came out all those years ago. Even being old, it still can do things that many facilities in the world today still can't do <G>.

We have a 20 minute conflict probe installed in 7 of our 20 enroute facilities and are making constant changes to it as well as the main display system along with electronic flight data. We also have a metering program that is installed in a few facilities and we are looking at being able to install it in more. We are also working on multicenter metering so that you can spread the delay to an airport over multiple centers, and hopefully eliminating holding at the destination airport if the delays don't get too long. I wouldn't call this ancient stuff <G>.

Then of course there is the tool that we use to look at ALL IFR traffic in the country. We can also see what is in the UK, Canada and Japan as we have given the system to those countries. We can then use this tool to better help guage impact to the system or any particular airport. Not to bad for an outmoded system.

regards

Scott

NERC Dweller;

When I watched the demo on digistrips and talked with one of the engineers, I found that they can make the data look like anything. It is just a graphic that can be changed.

As to what happens to the data. We already have facilities that have no paper nor any paper back up per se. Buy the time you stripped everything up, the planes would be gone <G>... All you are doing is taking the data from your computer and instead of printing it on a printer, you are putting it on a screen. The data resides in another processor with its own memory. The units that we use here have thier own battery backup, and it has been tested in real life when the flight data computer has gone belly up, and the only data left was the electronic data that we had in the conflict probe system. The data for historic purposes is all resident on tape. So that is not an issue.

What the US has been going towards is a keyboard and mouse system ( could be trackball ) for the tracker ( We call it a D-side ) with a display for both the data and also a graphic display is available is you want. The radar controller ( Executive in Eurocontrol terms) is going to go from paper strips to interactive data blocks ( that is starting its evolution this year. ) that will show and pass information to other controllers as well as be integrated with the flight data computer.

Hope that this answers some questions or muddies the waters some more <G>...

PS. I'll be out of town for another week again. Another trip to DC.

[garp]

Scott,

Tx a lot for the explanation. It answered quite a few questions. I like it when people don't just answer with yes or no but also give a why when they provide an answer.
Rgds

[cb9002]

The action you take with writing is not really mediated by anything else; with mouse and keyboard you are manipulating some agent of language, without any associated proprioceptive ( ) feedback (unless you are a skilled typist). This type of feedback lets you know when you've done something wrong, even while you are still doing it (how many of us have written something and realised it was wrong before we'd finished it, without looking at it, just through the .feeling of writing it?).

I'd disagree with you there - how is picking up and moving a pen any less a manipulation than pressing keys? Maybe ATCOs just need to learn how to type?

I'm not that good a touch-typist (50wpm) but can type faster than I can write and get this "Proprioreceptive feedback" when typing as well as writing. Personally, I can talk and type far easier than talk and write. Plus, if you touch type you can type while looking at the screen, or something else entirely. How many people can write blind?

[Llamapoo]

Hi CB9002;

At 50 wpm I'd say you were a better typist than 90% of the world!:ok: Although it has to be said that typing is an increasingly common skill. And you're right, a skilled typist does get that proporioceptive feedback (and if we say that 90% of the world isn't skilled...). However, I think we'll have to disagree on some things. I can also type without looking at my fingers, but that's not the case with many. But admittedly many/most ATC inputs are numerical, so you only have to memorise the positions of 10 (ish) keys.

I still maintain my point about the additional complexity of finding a field with a mouse first, then moving hand(s- big mouse!) to keyboard to type. Not a problem for you? Bit of a pain and an added task for me.

And as for writing without looking: I can do that...the only problem being it ceases to follow a straight line after about 3 words.:{

[GroundBound]

Unfortunately the term "electronic strips" doesn't really mean very much, as it depends how the information display has been generated, and many units have very different systems.

There are two key areas, the Human Machine Interface (HMI) and the system capabilities. the two should be carefully "married", and this is frequently not done. If there is no decent "system" behind the scenes, then having electronic strips doens't do much for the controller. However, if the HMI is not effective then you can't easily enter or see the information.

Very few "electronic strips" have been well implemented and are often a copy of paper strips - this is not a good idea, and it comes from the fact that commercial designers do not understand how a controller uses his data.

Much work was done in the late 1980s and early 90s in international ATC research centres to identify how electronic displays (not electronic "strips") could be used in ATC. Regrettably much of this useful work was not followed up. Some units, such as Maastricht, have implemented some of the ideas, although have still fallen short of the ideal.

There is a useful web site (look here) (users.skynet.be/atcsim) which provides a free working ATC radar screen with integrated data display, Short Term Conflict Alert. Medium term Conflict Detection, and fast input of ATC clearances. You can also create your own ATC sectors to make your own evaluation of the effectiveness of the system, and you will find a selection of scenarios from around the world. Since it runs on a PC, it can only provide a demonstration of the ideas in a single sector, however, it can give you a taste of what can really be done in the real world, providing you have the right designers.

[BEXIL160]

GroundBound....

Yes, all very impressive stuff and it's pretty obvious a lot CAN be done. However I would disagree with your assertion that electronic strips are:
often a copy of paper strips - this is not a good idea
Why not? It's an interface that we (the user) are familiar with and one that is PROVEN to work. An interface that builds on that would seem like a good idea. Evolution, not revolution with all it's attendant risks. (Sounds like a Boeing vs. Airbus discussion doesn't it!)

I have spent many HOURS with ATC system specialists endeavouring to help them understand just what an Air Traffic Controller does and how he does it. Generally they find it very difficult because most of them (Engineers / HF) come from backgrounds where everything can be quantified. ATC is not (always) like that.

Rgds BEX

[GroundBound]

Bex,

Well, there is a lot to discuss about "strips". :)

There is no common "strip" in ATC. Some units use a single strip, others use multi-strips. Strip formats (size, content and layout) differ from unit to unit, and from function to function (e.g. area to tower). Indeed some units have never used strips, but have used a rolling paper graphic plotter (although this was only workable within certain geographical limits).

What we can determine is a "strip" performs certain functions - it provides basic flight plan information, it is a conflict detection mechanism, it is a notepad for clearances but which also serves to update the conflict detection data, and it can serve as a reminder (strip cocking).

However, strips have problems - they cannot easily handle traffic which does not proceeed along predefined strip points, it takes a lot of effort to learn how to use them, and with increased traffic, the strips have become almost unuseable and are often not updated. What is written on a strip is visible only to the controller(s) who have immediate access to them, and changes to data must be manually forwarded (telephone) . The fact that some units have cameras to make the strip data available to other working positions only goes to highlight the limits of strips.

In the days of pencil and paper, strips represented the only way (more or less) to record and update information. However, at radar units (especially dark ones) strips were not used - there was the edge-lit display, showing the callsign, time and FL at specific predetermined (strip) points.

The strip is not sacrosanct (although some controllers feel that way!), and there is much evidence that a better way is needed. However, what must be recognised and preserved are the functions which the strip provides. It is this analysis of functions and the replacement by workable alternatives which is the key. I cannot see how being able to move a strip on a screen with your finger provides an improvement to the deficiencies mentioned above. The deficiencies have to be tackled by finding the right way to present and update the information in a timely and useable manner, which will update all displayed information to all controllers who need to know, including forwarding to other units.

There is much more that could be said, but I shall constrain myself to that for now. :)

And no, I am not an engineer, and my ATC Licence held ratings for aerodrome, approach control approach radar control, area control, area radar control, and PAR.

[BEXIL160]

GroundBound....

I'm not advocating that strips are sacrosanct, merely that we need to careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You say that there are "problems" with the use of strips, electronic or paper. Lets go through your list of percieved problems:

1) They cannot easily handle traffic which does not proceeed along predefined strip points.

Yes they can and do. Indeed, one of the advantages of strips is that you CAN move them around easily to highlight conflicts REGARLESS OF DIRECTION. I do this everyday at work.

2) It takes a lot of effort to learn how to use them.

Not in my opinion.

3)With increased traffic, the strips have become almost unuseable and are often not updated.

Not so. Would an electronic display be any easier to update?

4)What is written on a strip is visible only to the controller(s) who have immediate access to them, and changes to data must be manually forwarded .

Not completely true. At LACC some data is automatically forwarded by the planners "electronic" display. The Tactical display remains paper.

5)The fact that some units have cameras to make the strip data available to other working positions only goes to highlight the limits of strips.

I think this actually demonstrates how flexible they are. In future, instead of using CCTV for thing like stacks, the whole lot could be digitised (a la DigiStrips) and made available to a lot more people.

The future of ATM will have a lot more to do with DATALINK. As yet it isn't clear just how this will interface with ground based ATM systems. We are left with the choice of sticking with what we have, updating to some sort of halfway position (DigiStrips or their equivilent) or going all high tech(and high risk) and gambling on what form the ATM system will take.

Best rgds BEX

P.S. My licence contained all the same ratings and validities (incl PAR) and now has a few different ones as well.....:)

[055166k]

Retention of paper strips has saved the Swanwick Centre; however it would be foolish not to consider alternatives. A compromise and transitional stage would be to move to single paper strip and if that works, the next step will be that much easier. What we don't want is a technology jump of such magnitude that all our eyeballs drop out in shock, did I say eyeballs, sorry, Freudian slip.

[Vercingetorix]

Electronic or paper strips. If electronic clutters up the screen and is slower in function why use it ? Still the A300 is better than a DC9 so Luddites lie down.

[terrain safe]

I do believe that Stansted, Gatwick and then Heathrow will be going to electronic strips, all based on a Canadian COTS system. Apparently SS will be operational this time next year.

[CUNIM]

Hi Bexil - Thanks for posting such an important subject. I have been involved since 1983 - remember EDDUS? One of the most difficult aspects that has not yet been addressed is the physical area of the data display for all this digital information. The Digistrip needs its own 29" screen to hold all the traffic. If you only have a single 2K x 2K screen, strips is out! there ain't enough room for them and the radar display. So we are back to windows of data in differing formats, depending upon their uses. Windows are a misnomer - try looking through them to the traffic underneath and try addressing a radar label under one or try moving an elastic vector over an active window. A Canadian company is the only one capable of permitting "through addressing" multi-density translucent windows which frees up the controller to address what he/she wants when required without the need to move a window. You could of course have the data windows surrounding the radar window, but the resulting radar window is quite small.

Coming back to the question, it is not just paper versus electronic, it is the detail and amount of data required, to present to an overworked controller on a busy session a clear unambiguous situation picture where safety is NEVER compromised. This is the problem - the more the traffic, the larger amount of data to digest and sadly paper or even electronic representations of strips don't really work, the only thing is to use the radar data block and associated Executive and Planning tools.

If anybody is interested, I have a Flash set of animated pictures of radar screens using translucency etc, just email me. And yes, much of what I have mentioned has been implemented in some parts of Europe, but not true translucency - yet!!

By the way, for the Tower, forget electronic screens - the Tower controllers job is outside and that is where the data should be - on a Head Up Display as demonstrated at ATC Maastricht over the past couple of years.

[BEXIL160]

CUNIM...

Yes I DO remember much of the research at what was the "EU" in the early 1980s. I also remember the plug being pulled on the project overnight..... :( Another victory for the short termers in NATS management.

Thanks for listing the drawbacks with DigiStrips. I knew there had to be some.

There appears to be a train of thought among many that paper strips "Don't Work". Well, I disagree. They do work and they are extremely flexible. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be replaced, or a whole different approach looked at, far from it. I DO feel that they have not yet outlasted their usefullness.

In the future something new will be required, particularly with CPDLC on the horizon, but what form this will take is open to question. To those involved in development can I make this plea? Get as many OPERATIONAL ATCers involved EARLY in the project and KEEP THEM INVOLVED, right up until the system goes live.

Best rgds
BEX

[BDiONU]

Bex,
My dept are 'keeping up the side' for the operational staff on the Elimination of Paper Strips (EPS as a project is dead and has been succeeded by iFACTS Interim Future Area Control Tools). Our BIGGEST concern (putting aside the HMI aspects) is that of fallbacks. iFACTS etc. is still reliant on good 'ol NAS for Flight Data Processing. If NAS fails or the link fails then you lose EVERYTHING.
So until some reliable method of having secondary FDP is dreamt up or until NAS is replaced by something 100% reliable (yes, right!) any system which replaces paper strips by electronics is dead in the water.

[Scott Voigt]

CUNIM;

We have both opaque and transparent windows over here with our DSR displays. I can see traffic under the windows if I want to.

regards

Scott

[CUNIM]

Hi Bex

Well you will be pleased to know that EDDUS mark 2 is alive and well somewhere in Europe as I swore that when it was cancelled from under my feet that it would live, if not in the UK then elsewhere - ODID 1 was in fact EDDUS - well with alternatives with CENA France providing alternative thoughts. I agree with you on paper strips, the replacement will have to be very good to beat them.

Hey Scott

Long time no see - since Atlanta I think. I am happy that you are getting translucent windows - about time. I have been wittering on about them since oooh 1996 ish. Do you have elastic vectors? if you do, can they go over the top of the active windows? Can you push through the active windows to address traffic underneath? I'm still working on the Head Up Display for the Tower, hopefully we have the size and weight problem solved now. Since I saw you, I retired and now run my own ATC consultancy company, but due to costs, only exhibit at Maastricht.

By the way Scott - ask them if they can do variable density - it is great for weather display - only one RGB but four "colours"

Edited, 'cos I must learn to really check before pressing GO :uhoh:

[goldfrog]

EDDUS Mk1 is alive and well at LATCC Mil and feeding data to LACC, working on hardware upgrades as we speak. Of course it was only an update of Myriad which was doing elecronic strips in MASOR when I arrived in 73!

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Cunim;

Elastic vectors huh <G>... We don't have that, but we do have vectors to show you where you will be in one minute, two minutes, four minutes and 8 minutes. We have had that for decades. That will also show under a window if it is transparent. We had this ability the first day that we went to DSR and had windows to worry about.

We can't click on the target below the window, but not a big deal since the window is normally not in your airspace and if you need to do something, you can still do it via the keyboard. We can and normally do shrink down most of our windows except for the data display ones. They are fairly small though and don't cause much in the way of problems. We are looking at a few new things though to mitigate even those things. Some nice tools coming up for DSR in the not to distant future unless of course we run out of money...

Hope that all is going well with your new work... I plan on not doing much in the way of work after I retire unless someone offers me something to good to be true. <G>

regards

Scott

[CUNIM]

Hi Goldfrog = Yes I was aware at the time they cut the rug from under me that at least the Military were capable of professional levels of management. After the fateful decision, a fortnight later the question was posed - could we continue with the EDDUS trials as we didn't really mean cancel? Answer, no cos all the EDDUS slots were taken up by other people and trials.

Scott - you know the elastic vectors for inputting headings or direct routes, they do not like going over windows, but mine don't care as they are above the window heirarcy for that moment. By the way, if you are contemplating retirement and you get bored after a while - well you could always join our band of retired Air Traffic Controllers, Pilots, Airport Managers and Engineers who put back into the aviation world the results of their 35 years of experience in helping countries to put together their modernisation programmes. It is fun and very rewarding. :ok:

[Scott Voigt]

CUNIM;

I'm able to retire in another three years ( a young 49 ), but I want to pay off the house before I go, so it looks like about another six years before I pull the plug. I've been having quite a bit of fun of late though working the safety stuff and then procedural stuff as well as the new ERAM project...

regards

Scott

[CUNIM]

Hi Scott

Yes, another six years shouldn't do any harm to the bank balance!!

If anyone else is interested coming up to retirement, I need ATCOs and Engineers with requirements experience.

As far as electronic strips are concerned, I doubt whether the copy of the paper strip is the answer, I believe that we need to involve the controllers at the earliest stage - before developments and system designs get fixed, but also be able to restrict the fancier ideas. I feel that the KISS principle with most of the pertinent data on the radar data block - with appearance controlled according to need using some form of expert system may provide part of the answer, but forward planning tools are still going to be essential and this will need another graphical display design window and data comparative displays (List info). I just hope that the lessons learned over the past twenty or so years will, for a change, be noted and acted upon.

[Ayr_Man]

The big advantage of electronic strips is of course the fact that ATSA grades will be made almost extinct! Great if you are a manager hell bent "on yer bonus".

Now if you want to be stuffed when the lights go out and the radar stops turning when some fool pulls the plug, beleive me it isn't any fun!

Keep the ATSA grades and the paper strips!

[Vercingetorix]

Q. Is it easier to use a PDA or a Filofax when entering immediate data ? Bet you all know the real answer.

[1261]

That's actually quite a good analogy (and may have changed my mind); until last year I'd have said the Filofax won hands-down - but since getting a Palm there's simply no way I'd go back!

Roll on EFPS......

[Ayr_Man]

Fine.

use a PALM to separate the aircraft!

:O You might even have better results !