Reasons for failing Eurocontrol training?

[NickM]

Due to start at Eurocontrol in Lux this August. Can't wait to get stuck in, trying to pass the time as quick as possible. But one thing keeps going through my head..... the 40% failure rate!!!! What percentage of these failures are down to their own fault, issues that were in their control, like not revising enough and treating the whole thing as a nice holiday in the Luxembourg sun.
How much is down to just not having the right aptitude for the job, things that you can't revise for that are out of your control.
I believe I have a good understanding of what they want and that I fit their requirements, and they've done tests on me to check my suitability, but that doesn't explain why so many people fall by the way side.
Can anyone who has been there and done it give their understanding of the reasons why people on their course didn't make the grade?
Much appreciated guys.....

[ferris]

I'll have a stab at this difficult question.
Firstly, I didn't go through Eurocontrol, but I believe the stats would be the same the world over (about 50% of my course validated in the field).
People fail in the college for any number of reasons. The main one would be unsuitabilty to 'pressurised' jobs. They can test you for spatial reasoning etc. but not how you go under real pressure. You hear the comparisons to 3-D chess. Some people would be fantastic if they were given 30 minutes for each move. But give them 3 seconds and they are hopeless. You get the odd bod who is just immature or not up to the study, but generally they are screened out. The training system is controversial. You have set time frames to make certain 'milestones'. Someone who may be just behind the learning curve is considered unsuitable. Yet these milestones seem completely arbitrary. I have witnessed VERY long timeframes (by 'western' standards) produce perfectly satisfactory controllers, so you have to wonder how much is ego driven.
People fail in the field for a variety of reasons also. They may have blitzed the college, then turn to water when it's the real thing. Often, the reason can be as simple as a personality clash with their OJT.

I'm sure people will add to this, but at the end of the day I really think it mainly comes down to self-belief.

[garp]

Nick,

The only thing you have to remember is that all the training staff both in Luxemburg and Maastricht are a 100 % commited to make your training a success. The Operations Room is still somehow short of people so we definitely need the new trainees to be successful in their training. For what concerns the 40 % rate I can confirm you that the recent Ab Initio courses have a successrate (sounds better than faillure rate) of 65 to 72 % which is a lot better than it used to be.
Give everything you can when you start the course because you'll never forgive yourself for not making it due to a lack of commitment, after all you wont get too many chances to enter (and I really believe this) one of the most rewarding and challenging professions in the world.

[MinimumRest]

Nick love you'll be fine, you'll be a fully validated EuroController before I even start at NATS at this rate!!!

Can you send me your phone number honey as I've changed phones and lost my old SIM card, PM it to me if you like, then we can meet up for a beer.

Love and stuff

MR XxX :p

[antonovspotter]

I agree with a lot of the above. But i think a lot of the change in success rates in the training since the old days are political.
Luxembourg used to wipe out 33% of Ab Initios before they would even arrive at Maastricht UAC. Nowadays there has been courses where all have arrived. this can't be just down to improved training techniques or better candidate selection.

I was recently told by an instructor that if i had now been training instead of 6-10 years back i would have been sent to OJT at Maastricht. But as it was myself and several other colleagues were never given the chance.

At some point management were told to ship as many Ab's up to MUAC and let them sort out the wheat from the chaff. This seems to be the biggest reason for the improved success rates.

My advice is
Keep your head down......
look keen...
work well the whole group...
study hard
and you should have no problems.

[fourthreethree]

antonovspotter

I was recently told by an instructor that if i had now been training instead of 6-10 years back i would have been sent to OJT at Maastricht. But as it was myself and several other colleagues were never given the chance.

Sadly this misses the point. It is a common mistake for trainees to make, the "I'm-in-the-ops-room-now-so-I've-made-it" attitude. Yes it is true that Luxembourg are letting MUAC take the tough decisions, but many a trainee I have seen fall at the last hurdle. Including yours truly. Nearly.

NickM

Hate to sound predictable, but pen-paper exams are not there to be failed, they are there as pain in the butt obstacles, tools for you to prove your commitment. Don't get me wrong, the work done throughout the whole training program is important work, but the indefinable "it factor" which makes a controller a good one can only be percieved later on in training, simulator, OJT and such. Classroom training is just a matter of hard work and dedication, both of which are qualities you will need later on.

So, advice? Knuckle down early on, try to stay on the good side of others in your group, their help and support will be invaluable, and above all concentrate on the future (ie full license) not on the now, cos, at least for me, training was stressful, hard, laborious but well worth it because it got me what I have now, a rewarding, varied and enjoyable career.

One other thing.......
A beer or two strategically bought can do wonders.
I spend a lot of time in the sim these days.......;)

Good luck, see you in Maastricht!!

NickM
Just reread your post, and realised I failed to answer your question re reasons people fail.:O

Well, this is it as I see it.
Some fail due to lack of commitment (failing map tests, oral boards, stuff which just needs time and effort)

Some fail (at least in part) due to personality problems. Never officially, but let me put it this way. A "nice guy/gal" is more likely to be given a 2nd, 3rd or 4th chance, whereas someone who tends to piss people off is more likely to be off earlier. Not PC, but teamwork is vital, and these are people you have to be able to get along with, at least on a professional level.

Most, IMHO, fail due to an inability to apply the acquired knowledge into the practical world of atc. It all looks simple on paper, but it is a very complex thing to apply and it takes time, patience and effort. That's what the sim is for.

Finally there's the old "it factor" thing. You're through to OJT, applying paper knowledge to a radar screen, but things keep going wrong. Something doesn't click. OJTI's will only wait a certain time before saying enough is enough. You either have "it" or you don't.

Sounds formiddable, but it ain't. Remember, I made it!! And I'm a Blackpool supporter!!
:D :O :D

[Canoehead]

Some good points, some bad. Low check-out rates is a world-wide reality, my initial course had 23, and 5 ended up licensed.
So what does it take? If we knew, we would hire accordingly and have a 100% sucess rate. But nobody's nailed it down yet. But there are clues....
To me, you have to be able to do many things at the same time, and not screw up. Think a very busy short-order cook. If you're in a busy tower, you have to be able to talk to the airplanes, constantly switch from looking outside to the radar, catch what approach is coordinating, see out of the corner of your eye the ground-controller waving a request to cross two at the intersection, and also catch the joke someone's telling. Working approach you need to remember every altitude you've issued, every heading, talk incessantly, not miss a turn, answer tower's special requests, and in the background monitor all aircraft for compliance of your instructions (and catch the joke!).
Yes, it is a skill. It can be learned to a certain extent, but some folks are naturally better at it. Others can learn the basics, yet they never get any good at it. Like playing piano. It also helps big time if you have a big ego, can shrug off the crap, and if you are totally dedicated, and make a far greater effort than anyone else on the course. It can get quite competitive. Best of luck, it's one of the best careers.

[Lon More]

4-3-3 pretty much hit it on the head.
There are a few other points however; IANS has a different agenda to Maastricht - they are interested mainly in pass rates, we are looking at handling traffic. If the training in Luxembourg was ideal, it would be possible to sit down at a CWP in Maastricht and handle traffic. Instead, after more classroom work here and a short period of observation in the Ops. Room it's back to a simulator, this time with working controllers, people who will be colleagues after training is completed - and whose criteria are somewhat different to those in Luxembourg. One, probably the most important, factor is; would I feel comfortable in high traffic with him/her next to me? If most of them answer No to that then, no matter how good you were in Luxembourg, you are on very thin ice.
A few years ago there was a considerable shortage of controllers world wide (forecast to continue at Maastricht until 2005) with +/-4% p.a. growth in traffic. 911 put a stop on that for a while, but it has given a breathing period and enabled us to catch up. In the past we were so keen to put bums on chairs that a number of marginal cases were given the benefit of the doubt, there is now much less flexibility shown here.
Furthermore there is much less need for evtra sectors as most of the busiest sectors are now split horizontally and plans are far advanced to split the remainder.Within the next couple of years staff will be available to open them as required. Also the gap created by ETS is closing as the initial large loss has now been replaced
hope this is not too discouraging but as stated, a happy smile
can get you a long way. Getting coffee can get you further :cool:

Good Luck,

Lon More

___________________________________________________
More than just an ATCO

[FWA NATCA]

Nick,

Sounds like Eurocontrol success/failure rate mirrors the US. Out of my class (1985) at the FAA Academy only 8 of us passed.

Out of the 12 controllers that I went to ZID (Indianapolis Center) only 4 became Full Performance Controllers, 2 of us that failed En Route training were sent to Towers where we certified (became FPL's), I subsequently went to an Approach Control and certified. The other 5 were terminated or resigned.

Is there any one major reason that someone fails training, NO. Some trainees just can't relax (always get real nervous) and work the traffic, some just can't retain the day to day knowledge that is required, some can't adapt when unusual situations occur, etc.

I've seen trainees that could breeze throught the academic training with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind their back not be successful. We have had controllers who were certified at a non radar facility (tower) not pass radar training (OJT).

A huge part to being successful is "SELF MOTIVATION", the rest is good study habits, constantly drawing your airspace (so you know it better than your instructors), knowing your local SOP's better than the back of your hand, and have confidence in your knowledge and abilities.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Impi]

Nick,

You have nothing to worry about. Fact is that traffic handled at Maastrcht UAC is not half as complex as "eurocontrollers" make out to be. Some might even say that boredom is your biggest obstacle. . .

Good luck with your training!

[fourthreethree]

What an intelligent, well thought out, helpful and informed comment that was.

I would guess from your inane ramblings that you have never spent any period of time over here. Either that or you have, but failed your training here, probably due to lack of personality.

The job as atco is highly skilled and has a high level of responsibility. The required ability of the controller does not vary from one area centre to another, nor does the level of training given.

There is a place for comments like yours, but it is not on a thread like this.

[PPRuNe Radar]

We have a Traffic Traffic clone in the Forum I fear ...... :p

[The Euronator]

Impi,

My boy.. your half assed response to what is quite a serious thread shows your complete lack of knowledge and credibility. I gathered you have deduced this rashful comment from your 5 minutes of ATC experience or a 1 hour visit through MUAC centre...you have proven one thing though...You are the weakest link.

Nick,

As previously mentioned by others it will eventually come down to how quickly you pick things up..unfortunately ATC has a steep learning curve associated with the profession..if you could spend several years in the OJT stage,the pass rate would probably be significantly improved but alas you can't train abinitios that long. So it will eventually come down to the aptitude of the trainee. Knowledge of airspace and procedures will greatly affect the situational awareness and eventually the final outcome of a trainee. This is where given the time and effort by the trainee for study can greatly influence the checkout process.

Good Luck and see you in the simulator.

[ive348]

Impi,
I have to agree with 433 and the Euronator. Maybe you visited at a calm moment, or you're just talking out of the wrong hole, but we work very hard here, in a complex environment.

Nick,
I believe as well that IANS has different standards than Maastricht, although they are supposed to work towards the same goal. This said, you will have to work hard to make it as a controller, both in Luxembourg and in Maastricht. Your solid base built up at IANS will help you when you move north. Study your procedures, study your airspace, listen to your coaches. If you stick to this, you'll be fine

[fourthreethree]

fat'n'grey

What can I say, you've hit the nail on the head. Of course IANS and Maastricht are working with trainees towards a common goal. This is a well known problem, one about which I am not well enough informed to make full comment for fear of making a political faux-pas. I do know that there is a continuing dialogue between the two centres to iron out the problems. A lot of people are putting in a lot of effort on this, but I believe there has been a bit of a stalemate over recent months/years.
I also know from my experience in the sim that the first few weeks are spent with trainees saying "but this is what we were taught in Lux" and coaches getting very frustrated. (Not with the trainees.)
However it is not such an obstacle that it cannot be overcome in the normal course of training, and I would not say it has ever been a factor in a trainee failing his/her training.

[ATC Watcher]

Nick : it is not always ability to handle the traffic :

some recent failure reasons in Maastricht :
- girl friend does not like holland.
- better job offered elsewhere (outside ATC)
-cannot get up early in the morning.
- cannot allow to be taught by a woman
-cannot work in a team or with someone else.
-too academic
-too young to make decisions.
- Home sick.

and I forgot : systematically anwering : " yes but ! ....."to his coaches .... is a no go for some....

Keep your head down and you'll be fine....

[Impi]

Anyone who calls himself an ATCO(fourthreethree) or "The Euronator" needs to be slapped upside the head!! You guys have probably never been outside of the MUAC and don't know much about ATC except how to provide vertical separation...

As for ive348, saying that what you do is "very hard" is coming out of your wrong hole buddy...

P.S. The east sector ghost is a joke!!

[fourthreethree]

impi
Grow up. You failed your training, now get over it.

Minotauro
1st post? Just registered? Could it be...surely not....Impi with a different user name?
Nah, on second thoughts, nobody could be that pathetic.
Then again, 27 minutes between posts from "Impi" and "Minotauro", just enough time to....oh that's just too sad.

[Impi]

Sorry to disappoint you inspector fourthreethree, there's only one me and too many idiots like you out there...

Dunno who the other person is, obviously someone who knows how it really is..

Start living man!

[TrafficTraffic]

Now look - I am extremely dissapointed in all of you, and I know who you are.......

I am the only person who is allowed to upset people on PPRUNE, isnt that right Mr PPruNE RADAR! - am I still on Parole ? :ouch:

Stop this childish fighting on ATC Issues, what we need is a EURO ATC Forum - for ATC's (not ATC(O)'s) ....no hold on thats a silly idea.



Impi most ATC jobs get easier as time goes on, as I am sure does flying a 737, fighting a fire etc.... it becomes routine, the core stays the same but certain variables change - and it is the ability to anticipate and adapt to those variables that make ANY job interesting or challenging. Do I find MUAC easy, yes to a certain degree, sometimes even boring, but I know that I can always be better than I am, can always improve the way I do things and I still have the greatest respect for the ideals of the job - I spend 90% of my time during my shift getting out of S.it that I spent 10%* of my time getting into.

Its like the Croc Hunter says - "...the ATC is an APEX predator - the top of the food chain"

oh yeah Impi grow up son - when you get your drivers licence, first kiss (we dont want to know his name!) and first ATC rating - then come back and post, unless you want to share with us your worldwide ATC experience.........


Minotauro

Kals De Vries is giving briefings

I smell ex- Mil - cant even spell the boss's name correct.....
Left
Left
Left right
Left

Left
Left
Left right
Left


HAlt

........tnshun


:ok:

[fourthreethree]

Ok my last post on this thread.
we can be cool and treat the text as adults
hmmmm...
Minotauro, if you have an issue with any of us, why not come talk to us about it. After all, you know who we all are right? Or is it easier to hide behind an anonymous forum name? Or two?
If you are who you say you are I strongly suggest you find a change of career. With feelings like you have about your workplace and colleagues, not to mention your "this-job-is-easy" attitude must make you a very unhappy person, and a dangerous controller.
Personally I don't care if you are a controller (better?) or a failed ab initio or whatever, your attitude towards what was a very sensible posting by NickM. is hugely unprofessional.

TT
You're right, oh master upsetter, but fear not, this guy is but an amateur. And at least you have the decency(:hmm: ) to do it during posts that are in some way related.

Finally.....
I am very disappointed. This was my 100th post, I had big plans for it, making a world altering statement, some clever witticism, the anouncement of a great personal victory, etc...and what happens? I get caught up in a pathetic war of words. Poo.:(

[The Euronator]

Impi,

Anyone who calls himself an ATCO(fourthreethree) or "The Euronator" needs to be slapped upside the head!! You guys have probably never been outside of the MUAC and don't know much about ATC except how to provide vertical separation...

I hold 2 licences my friend..a yellow certificate of competency from MUAC (for what that is worth) and a yellow ICAO licence..this then answers your question. I believe that you don't get a licence for "would you like fries with that sir" from the Golden Arches College..but you can prove me wrong.

Minotauro,

To play this game I´ll prove somehow I´m not an ex ab-initio.
Gfl was last month.
Controllers cup is next month.
Brussels sectors had the afternoon in the simulator thursday 17th april.
Kals De Vries is giving briefings with his "ops-secretary" on the new management plan.
Tuem don´t like the new management plan

Sorry mate, but this only proves that you work in Maastricht and doesn't discount being a student in the sim..you'll have to try harder to sway us on this one.

Most of the controllers at muac went through a hard to very-hard time training, but when later established it is (going to make alot of friends here) easy.

Be very careful..every heard the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" the day you start thinking that a sector is easy and you can let your concentration levels wane is the day it will come back and bite you in the ass..big time. You will learn this from experience my young "Paduan".

[Impi]

All I can say as a conclusion to all defamitory remarks coming my direction is "quick to judge , quick to anger , slow to understand ...."

[Canoehead]

Why don't you all piss on each other via private email instead of subjecting us to your drivel. Or mark your posts with a "Caution: garbage alert" so we can scroll down. Thank you.

[garp]

Listen to the wise words coming from Canada and stop this sad exhibition. The only thing I wish to say to Impi and Minotauri is that a great external display of arrogance is very often linked to an even greater internal feeling of incompetence. I truly fear the day that I will have to sit beside either of you and work the traffic in the, like it or not, second busiest ACC in Europe. Over and out.

[Hotel Tango]

Some of you guys are letting the side down. With the level of maturity you display, I really wonder how you ever made it as ATCOs. By god, you fail miserably as ambassadors for the profession! Fortunately you are an insignificant minority of infants among thousands of mature and true ATC professionals worldwide.

[ATC Watcher]

Pooor show indeed !
Do not worry Hotel tango, I think I know by now who is behind Minotauro , and he he not a controller but more likely a Flight data .
Am I wong small bull ?

[ferris]

I was following this with minor amusement, sitting on the fence (a wind up in progress can sometimes be interesting) until that last post.



THE FU*KING BACKSTREET BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You sad person.

We have a winner!:8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8

[imnomaverick]

Ferris,

Sorry to correct you old mate but it should be we have a " WEEENER"

Minatauro,

If you want to change the world and protect the trainees from what you perceive as bad coaching then joing the training section and afterwards take each of them through OJT.

[Lon More]

Minotauro: boy, like the grasshopper, when you grow up you may understand more, and I suggest that you remain quiet until you know what you are talking about
Imnomaverick, with an attitude problem like his no-one would let him near a trainee
Let's get back on thread, why people fail, not how the idiots slip through.

[TrafficTraffic]

Isnt Canada part of the Axis of Evil?


...Let's get back on thread, why people fail, not how the idiots slip through

...I was wondering what this thread was about - it was getting so pointless I was going to suggest moving it to where all the other pointless threads end up...................

:{

[WX Man]

Can someone PLEASE check my IP address to confirm that I am not Minotauro? i.e. a person being accused of being a disgruntled, recently chopped Ab Initio?

For the record, I'm completely professional about the situation because (A) I know I may have to rely on Eurocontrol for references; (B) I'm that sort of person.

I know that most people at MUAC have got me sussed anyway, so there's no point in hiding behind some semblence of anonymity.

As for me sussing the likes of 443/Lon More etc out.... still not quite there yet, but no doubt I'll be meeting with one or two of you later this week.

[Radar]

Having been away on more pressing matters for the past cople of weeks, this thread has made for a highly entertaining, if disapointing return. One immediate question springs to mind. NickM, given what you've just witnessed here, are you still contemplating joing the Eurocontrol ranks at the end of the summer?

[Lon More]

Radar, Congratulations and welcome to the ranks of the sleepless.

I know that every living thing has one asshole, Euro unfortunately seems to have two but the real disaster is that they are the future. At least I won't be there to see them
343 days and counting

[Impi]

... Good Riddance ...

[TrafficTraffic]

What has worked for me (have received no complaints) is : "After landing 737 line up and power up on the breaks.."

Fantastic bit of ATC there Impi - in all your vast tower experience. I can imagine the checkies thought that was great.....how about ..... adding our own little helpful parts to all of our ATC(O) transmissions - you know real helpful stuff.

Lon respects his staff and stands up for his staff - you would be well advised to learn what being a leader is about.


I suggest you learn your current phraseology better...

Do you want sauce with your nuggets...... Should keep Ronald very Happy

:ok:

[Justin Time]

Dear o' Dear o' Dear,

Haven't seen so much commotion since grandma got her tit caught in the mangle !!!!

Well hello Radar, didn't think you'd have enough time on you hands to be reading this ****e let alone responding to it. Though I shall have to go and see if it was typed at some godforsaken time of the morning when all and sundry should be sleeping.

And I see that minature tauro really doesn't know TT, for a moment there it looked as if he was about to go down on his knees and .........

Well kinda like driving a Volvo really, both feel great until a mate sees you:D :D :D

[TrafficTraffic]

...dont you mean its like driving a Saab...all very good until somebody sees you......

[Radar]

Lon,
Thanks again for obliging me with the 4th day. I slept right through it :)

Justin .... time check please! Godforsaken hour as I recall, though my brain could be turning to mush already.

Sorry this reply is way off thread but maybe that's for the better. BTW Nick (if you're still reading this?) give it a go. We're not all a bunch of to$$ers. Honest!