South Africa ENR and TMA jobs

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As promulgated in Airservices Australia's internal mail last week:

"INTERNATIONAL OPPORTUNITY : ATNS SOUTH AFRICA

Air Traffic and Navigation Services Ltd (ATNS) the South African equivalent of Airservices Australia is interested in employing air traffic controllers on fixed term contracts 15-18 months. The requirement is currently for eight controllers consisting of 5 approach/departures controllers and 3 radar enroute controllers all based at Johannesburg Centre.

Terms and conditions of employment are still under discussion and will depend on the means of employment. Currently two options are being pursued, individual contracts with Airservices staff being released on leave without pay for the period, or alternatively Airservices contract to supply a number of staff on a contract between the two companies.

Expressions of interest are invited for this opportunity. It is acknowledged that any expression of interest is just that, not a binding commitment, and that a more formal application process will be necessary when terms and conditions are agreed. There will also be a requirement to assess on an individual basis who can or can’t be released.

Please provide by email to (deleted) your name, location, current ratings and contact details, or, if preferred, by phone on Ext. (deleted) if interested.

ATNS have requested that individuals not contact them direct before in principle agreement is reached."

Can any of our South African colleagues cast any light on this, especially regarding conditions, etc?

Cheers,

sep

[ferris]

Why do you think they are having so many problems with staff retention? Their staff are all over the world (or trying to get into oz). Their management is quite reminiscient of AsA; devoid of ethics and morals, full of pretentious ideas about being a 'business' etc etc. They pay in Rand, which is even worse than AUD. Chronic understaffing. Those ex-Joberg will tell you that it is safer here in a war zone, than there (unless you see car-jacking as a 'challenge').

I have no idea what is on offer, but will endeavor to find out. If you are just interested in doing a stint to see the country- that is another thing.

And if the offer is 'any good', I'm sure that will help industrial relations no-end!

[Plazbot]

One bloke from Airservices went there a couple of years ago. Got car jacked in the first few weeks, packed it in and came back. Airservies has also talked about supplying the labour on their behalf. If it goes anything like the instructors to the college who get nothing on top of standard pay to go away from home, I am sure that will die a very speedy death, like the death of a carjacker getting burnt in my flamethrowers installed under the car.....:yuk: :yuk: :* :* :yuk:

[The Crimson Fruitbat]

They pay in Rand

Whilst I am not interested, out of curiosity what were they paying the Suid Afrikans before they escaped to the UAE?


On todays rates, $50,000USD = 400,610R

[ferris]

Here's what (little) I have been able to find out; discussions are still ongoing because neither side could organise a pissup in a pub. AsA were after some sort of exchange, ATNS just want a quick fix to their retention problem. They have done this in the past with some Swedes. 12 month contract, the controllers coming on LWOP and individual contracts which amounted to about average local pay (enough to live comfortably on, but not a money making exercise). The current situation has the ATNS controllers very suspicious and pissed off. They feel that the contract must be a good deal in order to attract higher-paid aussies, or else why would they come? Some conclusion jumping has led them to threaten not to OJTI these contractors. They also feel it is the company's way of not increasing salaries to retain, or attract back, locals. Interesting situation!

Fruitbat; The ATNS remuneration is not simple. It involves a salary plus a location allowance, which can be a significant part of the total. The salary is also dependant on what you do, and years of service. I'm led to believe that you would make less than 250K Rand. Whatever the figure, it allows a comfortable living by local standards, but doesn't cut it internationally.

[divingduck]

The guy in question actually witnessed the carjacking a couple of cars down from him at the lights apparently...

He is now stationed in sleepy hollow...Sharjah Tower.

[Late Landing]

Some 4 years ago I had a job offer and a contract from ATNS. The 'contract' was extremely poorly written and contained clauses refering to a position in Johannesburg as well as Durban. The salary was nothing like that which I had been offered at an interview, neither were the provisions of mediacl etc. I sought clarification but nothing was forthcoming; no replies to e-mails and telephone calls not returned. The only contact from ATNS after the contract was a phone call from the unit (Durban) enquiring what my start date preference was. Needless to say I didn't take up the offer.
The major factor to consider is the crime rate, life is very cheap. It doesn't how much you get paid if you aren't around to spend it!

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Sounds as though it may be as dodgy as I suspected.

I am sure that ASA, as a caring and sharing employer, would never dream of putting their troops at risk. Unless of course there was a performance bonus for the manager concerned.

I wonder how much this has to do with the ASA management dream of some sort of menage a trois with SA and NZ, and if so, who will have to sleep on the wet spot?

I must be getting cynical in my old age.

sep

[Dumas]

The contract package will be higher than the package the locals are currently getting. I would assume about R20 000 after tax and deductions. That's a fair amount in SA. One can lead a good life.

Probably would not want to move with my whole family. Singles and newly weds would do best I think.

Working conditions not too bad. 7 hour shifts, mostly. 6 days off in a 28 day cycle. Work is complex and utterly challenging! Edge of your seat stuff, this.

New centre manager starts in a weeks time. YAY!!!!! Can't wait to get rid of the current dictator.

Security. Oh please. I have family in europe that are a lot more concerned about living there than in Jo'burg. Just take the usual precautions ie lock your doors etc. Don't be stupid and remember where you are. No worries.

I would strongly suggest giving it a bash.

But that's just my opinion.

WE'RE WAITING!!!!

[ZRH]

Just as a matter of interest. I had 15 days off in March, and that was as per roster. Ok, so the company owed me a day or three, but that still leaves 12 days!! In tight months we get 10 days off.

How much does ATNS contribute toward a foreigner's pension fund? It should at least be something I can take with me when I leave again, and not just a few Rands which equate to "not much" in £ or $.

[The Crimson Fruitbat]

Nav Canada provides 11 days off every 28 days...and if you worked any of those 11 you'd be up for overtime (about R430 - R570 AN HOUR depending if you are on the bottom or top of the pay increments).

Flight International Jobs (http://www.flightinternational.com/fi_frameset.asp?target=fi_jobs2/default.asp) is advertising positions with them advertising the purchasing equivalent of R371,600 as a salary.

[ferris]

Fruitbat; it's typical isn't it? No, they couldn't just come and tell you the offer, they have to give purchasing equivalent ! What a gem! What is it with managers? They can't lie straight in bed.
In fact DUMAS post has a bit of a management smell about it. Joberg safe!! Well, I must alert the media, that'll make the front pages. Oh hang on, April 1st- I get it.
A Swedish couple who went on the last fantastic contract offer were victims of a home invasion. Tied up at gunpoint, the woman avoided being raped when the intruders were disturbed, thought the better of it, and fled. Just another day in safe, sunny Joberg!
Rumour has it that the pot will be a bit sweeter (ie. there may be some housing assistance) than what the locals are on (which is about 17K Rand per month after tax). The downside is that the locals are not happy about it- so don't expect to be welcomed with open arms. Watch this space.

Apparently, those who went last time had a (with the obvious exceptions) good time- saw the country, bit of an adventure, lived it up etc. but didn't make any money. It depends what you want out of it. And the reception may be different this time;)

[126,7]

In order to feel safe, you need to stay in a part of town where security is part of the furniture so to speak. Houses are expensive in those areas!! Your kids need to go to a private school and if you want to live like the rest of the Europeans do, which means that your wife doesnt have to go get a job just to make ends meet, you need to earn 25k plus after deductions. Then you are more or less on par with a junior captain on a mid-ship of the local flag carrier. In Europe we earn the same as a A320 captain and in SA the lads are getting the salary of a Dash 8 co-jo!! Not much buying power there!
I would only go if I could enjoy the country and not have to offer up my savings just to help ATNS out of their dilema. And in order to enjoy my stay, I would need days off!!!

[Dumas]

Dear Ferris

This is what I think of the ATNS managers and their lies:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

However, and here's what I was trying to say in my last post, there is a faint little glimmer of hope on the horizon. The new MATS starts on monday and those who know him know that his appointment is long overdue! He's the best man for the job.

Also, even though the multi nationals who have invested heavily in the security industry in SA would hate to admit it, Jo'burg is not a war zone. IT'S NOT LAGOS!!!!! Living here is not that bad.

The positive tone to my previous post was not intended to praise ATNS:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: but to let anyone who is interested in taking the offer know that it might be worth considering.

NO you will not get rich, NO they (ATNS) will not change overnight. But if it's a new experience you're after in a damn nice country, well then pack your bags and check it out!

Just a matter of interest, some ATC's at FAJS are getting 9 days off and 4 standby shifts per cycle. And that's what we're all working towards. If that is achieved I'm staying right here. If we can't fill up the other pools I too am out of here!

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Further information regarding the proposed short term transfer of ASA staff to South Africa. This appeared in ASA internal email today. It looks like SA's requirements are growing from the original handful of troops.


"To: All ATC Staff

Subject: ATNS South Africa ATC Opportunities


There has been substantial negotiation and discussions over the last three weeks about how and under what conditions work in South Africa as an Air Traffic Controller could be managed. We now have in principle agreement between ATNS South Africa and Airservices Australia that there will be a contract between the two organisations for provision of qualified staff. This means that selected staff would remain employees of Airservices Australia for the time in South Africa and be paid and supported by Airservices Australia.

Those who opt to go to South Africa will be offered individual agreements which will specify all conditions of engagement. While not final, it is expected to consist of current salary and conditions such as superannuation, leave, an accommodation allowance and medical insurance.

A representative from ATNS, Charles Norval, will be in Melbourne from Monday 14 April and I am co-ordinating the availability of staff who have expressed interest to participate in an interview process. I will arrange for a similar process in Brisbane on Wednesday and Thursday next week or possibly the week after. Given the short notice of this visit I have not been able to arrange in time for this advice anywhere outside Melbourne or Brisbane but will advise on that next week.

The determination of who goes will be a combination of personal availability, and agreement, Airservices Australia operational requirements as to timing of release, and ATNS interview. ATNS have asked whether any TMA rated staff would be immediately available and I have co-ordinated with local managers and some individuals on their ability to go on short notice.

Longer term, ATNS have advised, they may require up to 20 Enroute and TMA staff for Johannesburg and possibly other locations. Training and endorsement requirements in South Africa mean that a staggered release would be required; consequently, immediate availability is not the only criteria.

I apologise for the lack of advice in recent days but the situation has been such that there was little I could offer over the original advice."

[SM4 Pirate]

Any suggestion that the Ozzies would utilised a potential strike 'breakers' for the upcoming negotiations? :yuk:

Are the locals going to be all Rosie when they find out the Ozzies will be on nearly double their wage and getting an accommodation allowance to boot? :ouch:

Or are things just that desperate that no one will care? :*

Bottle of Rum

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Just after I posted that last update, I heard from a usually reliable source that there are already a few confirmed starters for the TMA jobs.

I don't know anything about them being used as strikebreakers, however it wouldn't surprise me. The management here would jump at that sort of thing if the situation was reversed and they thought they could get away with it.

sep

[ferris]

Some of my colleagues have prompted me to post a warning.
Mr Norval (the ex-MATS) is the reason most controllers left. He is, allegedly, a liar of high order, and one should get EVERY DETAIL in writing. Quote: " He will sell you the sugar factory, and when you get there, it is actually a 5hit farm" eg. they are working regularly for 4 hours without a break. If you want a break every 2 hours or whatever, get it in writing. There is nothing in their CARs etc to protect you in relation to duty limitations.
The locals see this as sculduggery of the highest order. They have just completed negotiations for their next contract, receiving pay rises that will not become clear until they are actually sighted (a very complex computer modelling system), then find Charles off to oz to recruit some higher paid foreigners. Going down very well, it seems.
Another thing to check on is your tax situation. Sources tell me that you will be liable for SA tax, which can be higher than oz (jeeeez!!). Things like novated leases etc. don't exist. BE CAREFUL.
Aside from the previously mentioned problems to deal with, you will also need a car to get to work. Cars are about double the price in SA.
I sound very negative. All I am saying is BE FULLY INFORMED before signing up. Get in contact with the guys on the floor, to give you a balanced view. I'm sure Mr. Norval will oblige- after all, he has nothing to hide, does he?

[TrafficTraffic]

It would be interesting to hear from some of our South African colleagues and see what their stance on these jobs are. And if they are 'strike breakers' what Civil Air will do about it.

Hey Ferris do you know if the Canadian Snow Goose is still in Qatar - or was that his picture I saw on one of George W's playing cards?

[ferris]

Apparently he up and left in the middle of the night- rumour has it leaving behind a pile of bills and a lot of empty floor space;)
Claimed he was to become a 'consultant' in the US!!

I'm sure you will be hearing plenty from the Seth Efricans. They got me to post on their behalf because they are not too confident with all these computer thingies. A lot of them can't read, poor souls, but that is another story.......I don't know that it could be called a 'strike break', even if some of the ATNS people are angry enough to break things.

[SM4 Pirate]

Anyone got a contact email for someone in GATCSA that might be able to answer a few questions?

Bottle of Rum

[Quokka]

1. 20 controllers spread between Tower, Enroute & Approach in 3 different cities isn't going to break a strike... not even for a day.

2. If ATNS replaced every SA controller with overseas controllers on USD$50000pa contracts... what would they have achieved?

[TrafficTraffic]

1. 20 controllers spread between Tower, Enroute & Approach in 3 different cities isn't going to break a strike... not even for a day.

Remember that when AsA bring in some foreign controllers and pay them more - but there are only 20 of them....

See how that goes down.

[MISAIR]

Me and my wife have been interviewed to come and work as controllers in SA. We would get Swedish salary and other benefits.
Do you mean that if we come to SA under Swedish terms, we´d cause a strike among the native controllers?:confused:

As we understand it there is a lack of personell in SA, especially Jo-burg ACC.
But is this just management-problem? I mean maybe the controllers prefer working over-time and getting the extra money?

When Stockholm had lack of staff a couple of years ago, we would have loved some help from foreign controllers to get back on our feet and to be able to work normal weeks and no over time.
But that isn´t the case in Jo-burg, or?

[Quokka]

Hi MIS,

We've been told the same thing.... that Jo'burg is short of controllers because they keep quitting to go and work in the Middle East.

The rumour is that the South African controllers are due to re-negotiate their employment contract, hence the belief that foreign ATC's on contract in Jo'burg may be used to break any strike by South African controllers. That we're all a part of some big conspiracy theory.... frankly, I just think they're short of controllers... and like every other country around the world... when they stuff up their staffing, they advertise for foreign controllers to come and fill the shortage. It's the Too Many/Too Few cycle of ATC staffing and it's the same all around the world.

:rolleyes:

[TrafficTraffic]

Whilst I can honestly admit to having no idea about the staffing situation or the industrial situation in SA my question still stands...

how would you like it if your employer bought in other staff to do the same job as you - but with better conditions?

So you are saying that when AsA gets short of controllers - say in the tower - you are happy for them to 'import' staff from - maybe Sweden - and pay them a little more - on a contract?

[ferris]

Traffic- spot on.
The gripe the Jo'berg people have is that they just finished negotiating the new contract. The company tells them all the usual stories- no money, falling revenue etc. then they find their managers off overseas offering higher amounts to foreign controllers for short term fixes to their staff shortage. The reason they have a staff shortage is mistreating their own controllers in the first place (not allowing internal transfers, low comparitve salaries, rostering abuse, broken promises etc.- all the usual suspects). So instead of a long term fix- ie. luring back all the Sth Africans who have left (and continue to leave), they have this band-aid solution.
Of course, those that are left (working their butts off) are mighty pissed off. They are threatening to not OJT foreign contractors, but are in a catch 22. The only way they will get some (short term) relief is to OJT. But for the long term, they would prefer the company did the right thing. The salary is now not far away from hitting the magic figure that would have a number of my colleagues going back (especially as the Rand continues to appreciate). Now, the argument could be made that o/s employers would just up their salaries in a bidding war to retain the staff, but the ATNS management hasn't even tried. They are taking an industrially expedient route, at the further expense of their (remaining) workforce.
If you want to go, contact some controllers there to get the full story yourself. Be aware of what you are getting into, and not just what Mr. Norval et al are promoting.

[Quokka]

... I can honestly say that I really wouldn't care...

Not everyone has the underlying value system that you are displaying in your suggestion... not everyone places such a high value on the gaining of wealth, especially when it comes at the expense of others around them. I'd welcome our Swedish friends and anyone else who wanted to come to Australia and help us out.... just like our ex-Hong Kong controller, our ex-US controller, our ex-British controller. And I would have loved to have gone to Sweden for a few years to help them out with their staffing.... and I really don't care what they paid me... as long as it paid the bills, put a roof over my head, some food and some time off on occasion to have a look around.

[Canoehead]

So tell us exactly how many US Dollars/year an approach controller in Jo'burg makes?

[ferris]

Quokka.
Your niavete must be a manager's wet dream.
Money means nothing to you? How about this: You've been toiling away there in west group for 10 years, becoming really bored. You get the idea to go up tower, or over to approach. Your manager agrees, what a fine idea "the next vacancy is yours". After you watch a couple of 'next vacancies' get filled by other people, you approach the manager who tells you "look, don't worry, there are 20 tower vacancies around the country, and even some back in your home town!"
Next week, the notice is put up informing you of the 20 Swedes coming on contract to fill those vacancies. During a heated meeting with the manager, he informs you "well there is nothing I can do. This is a business, and it works out cheaper to train people once for those vacancies, than to move people and have to train twice (once for the tower, and someone else to fill the hole you leave)".

Think it can't happen? Go into the rec room, and ask for a show of hands of people who have been shafted in a similar manner.
And they wonder why people end up frustrated and bitter.

Canoe head. About 43k before tax (I think).

[Plazbot]

The thing is already falling apart. The African dude was supposed to come to Brisbane to talk to some people a few weeks ago and for whatever reason he did not show. Turn around a week or so later and he turns up unannounced and wants to interview the candidates. Needless to say the actual people interested were unable to be there so it became a case of whoever was there could go in for a chat. All this after certain people had been told that they would not get interviews because they missed the application date.


Oh and another one for the brisbane list of brilliance, to do with funnily enough Brisbane/coolangatta TMA hiring inhouse, persons were deemed suitable for training but did not make the short list due to the quality of their references (not written word but the actual person it came from :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

[MISAIR]

Ok, I understand the frustration if managers promise stuff to you guys and then don´t stand up for it later. That´s not good.

But as I´ve understand this discussion the bigger issue is salary.
Ferris thought a SA-controller gets 43 000 R. Is that correct?

As a swedish controller I wouldn´t get anywhere near that amount of money if I go to SA. I would get my Swedish salary, which is much less than the amount above, and an allowance for transportation in SA.
Still I´m thinking about going.

Why you might ask? Well, for the experience and to help the SA-controllers out.
Of course a big issue for me and my wife is that we are welcomed at Jo-burg. We can be any help if we dont get help at our OJT.
And is the management really that bad sa discribed earlier? Not giving a d**n about their staff and their demands about transferring between TWR-APP-ACC?

Do we have any Jo-burg controllers here at the Forum?

How could we help you guys in the best way? By coming there and work? Or by staying here in Sweden?

I don´t wanna come there just to be used as a baseball-bat in your salary-negotiations with the management.

If we´re not welcomed by the controllers in SA we rather stay at home.

But if we come, maybe we still can help you in your struggle for better working-conditions?

[ZRH]

Why dont you have a chat to the swedish couple who used to work in JNB. She was in the ACC and he was in APP. I think his name was Lars, but I cant remember the wife's name. They worked at JNB for around three years and went back to Sweden around 2 or 3 years ago. They should be able to give you a good enough evaluation of whats going down there seeing as there are no current SA atcos really replying on this forum.

[Africa Headset]

Hi all,

I am a South African Controller and I can asure you that we will always be friendly to any controllers helping us out.:ok:

What does a TMA / ENR controller earn at ATNS, after 11 years about R283 000 plus medical aid and a station allowance of R88 800. That incl. pension (Total salary).:ugh: How does that compere to you guy's out there.

You can contact John Spies, he is the GATCSA President e-mail [email protected] maybe he can help more.

I will monitore this forum more for questions.

I believe Lars and Pia Rappich wants to come back to SA, they are the Sweden controller that worked here.;) ;)

[MISAIR]

ZRH

Yes we have spoken a lot with Pia and Lasse Rappich and they recomend us to go to SA in spite of the robbery incident.
So we´ve been a bit puzzled about all the rumours about strike and No OJT and stuff like that.

Africa Headset

Good to hear from you! It´s comforting to hear that you´d help us on the OJT. I don´t know what you guys have heard about us Swedes and our salary if we´d come to SA. I would have somewhere around the same salary as you.

I must rusch to the nght-shift now. Talk to you later!

:ok:

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Further update as per internal Airservices email

"To All Air Traffic Control Staff



Subject: ATNS Secondment Progress



Progress continues, however, as to be expected with a ground breaking undertaking like this there have been some complications. Tax issues relating to how and where income tax is paid is requiring external accounting advice on both sides of the Indian Ocean. We will find a process to deal with it, as other companies have, but this will take a little more time. Generally, however, all other issues have been resolved and are now subject to legal and the Executive’s sign off, hopefully this will occur later this week.



Many of you have discussed South Africa and the secondment opportunities with Charles Norval over recent days and he is drafting a preferred list of names at this stage including staff from Brisbane and Melbourne Centres and Perth TCU. There are still some names in Sydney, Adelaide and possibly Cairns to be contacted. Local management is now being consulted on a program of availability and release. The list will probably contain about 25 names and clearly all cannot be released either immediately or in the near future.



The aim is to make as many opportunities available as possible and it may be possible we can keep this secondment arrangement in place for a number of years. As I indicated in the last advice on this, Airservices Australia is not nominating individuals, or for that matter participating in the selection process. It will to the maximum extent possible, subject to our operational requirements release those nominated by ATNS.



The process from here is that when both the ATNS /Airservices Australia and individual agreements are ready to roll individuals will be contacted by their local HR Managers to discuss the conditions. There will be an individual contract for each person which will out line all conditions of the secondment, and includes ATNS conditions as well as Airservices Australia conditions. Generally all provisions of the current CA apply, including annual salary advancements, superannuation, LOLI etc. The contract will only have effect outside Australia and reversion to Certified Agreement arrangements will occur on the return to Australia for any reason.



I am on leave for about 3 weeks and your local HR people will keep you informed, as well as, David Huxley from ATM Business Development.



Peter Evans "

sep

[Justin Time]

I have read certain segments of this thread with interest (both amused and aghast), but I still have seen scant reference to Civil Air's stand on the whole affair.

- Have they contacted their equivalent in SA and confirmed that the conditions for external staff to come in are acceptable to them??

- Could it not be construed as hypocritical to allow civil air members to operate in another country's OPS room under contract conditions while not being willing to entertain the same in OZ???

- Do they have any opinion at all on the subject????

- As others have intimated before me, how would civil air members react in years to come when AsA recruits contract workers from an outside agency after seeing their fellow members accept the same in SA?

[Africa Headset]

Hi all,:)

MISAIR do you know if Lars and Pia is coming back to SA? The controllers in South Africa are not allowed to strike by Law, so even if we wanted to we can not.:yuk:

We have heard that ATNS will pay you guys what ever it takes to get controllers to help ATNS out, the Rand value about R381 000-00 negotiable. Any controller can apply with 5 years experience or more. So we presume that the Rand value figure will be for 5 years experience and if you have more experience you can negotiate a higher salary.:confused:

What we are unhappy about is that there are controllers in SA that has more than 5 years experience and there salaries are not at the R284 000 benchmark, according to the benchmark that ATNS did with NATS.:mad: ATNS is prepared to spend millions to get you guys over here and we do appreciate your help:ok: but why don’t they spend some money to keep the locals happy (Just the correct pay) according to their benchmark.:)

The board of directors is prepared to go to the minister of transport to get money to pay the foreigners but they will not do the same for the locals what a pity.:( :{

[MISAIR]

Africa Headset

I think Pia and Lasse are intrested but haven´t decided anything in any direction yet. We (Swedes) haven´t recieved the whole deal yet.

Mainly because Australians will be hired in the first place due to do the similarity of your software-systems. So if 30 Australians sign up, no Swedes at all will be hired.

Still... IF SA will hire Swedes, we haven´t heard the details from the Swedish CAA. And there are a couple of big issues we must get straight before we can leave for SA. Social security, taxes, allowance, vacation, time for preparation and stuff like that.

The plan is that we will be on a leave from our jobs in Sweden. Thats great. But among other things we might lose up to 6 days of vacation per year by going to SA. :{
We´just have to wait and see how the deal will end up. :cool:

I understand the frustration when the government can take money to hire foreigners but not to increase the salary of their own people.

That is high-level politics. Taking with one hand and giving away with the other.:*
Different accounts ... one can do magic with them.
They can probably use some crisis account to pay Swedes and Australians since "The air traffic is in serious danger and the safety and development of South African aviation is at stake. This is a matter of national security. Thats why we must hire expensive foreigners for 18 months."

Something like that, huh? :suspect:

Let´s keep in touch about the development in this issue.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Call me paranoid, but has anyone considered that there may have been a deal done between ATNS, ASA, and Thales/Thomson (or whatever they call themselves these days), when selling the system to South Africa. ATNS knew then they didn't have the staff to commission a new system, and just maybe Thales was willing to give ASA a kick back for them to come to the party with some staff to seal the deal.

Only reason I was thinking of this was why ASA, with there own tight employment situation, would be volunteering staff to work for someone else. There must be a financial windfall for ASA in some way so either ATNS are paying the Oz Salary plus a profit premium to ASA, or Thales are paying the profit to ASA out of the money they made in selling the system to the Sth Africans.

I spose it makes no difference to either the guys in Sth Africa needing staff or the guys who need their heads read from ASA going to Sth Africa. All I can say to the ASA guys is I hope you guys considering this aren't the same guys who told me I was crazy for coming to a war zone. At least in my war zone I pay no tax and get all living expenses paid for, in your war zone you're on your own.

[Spank me baby!!!]

Thank's for the e-mail link to GATCSA, I've e-mailed and I'm awaiting a reply. After reading the posts in here, I can't see what the problem is. If GATCSA are happy for us to come, and if it helps them out in some way, I'd like to go. I've been told that I'm going on my salary, and I remain an employee of Airservices. It's for 18 months, which is not that long. I get to experience ATC outside of Australia and I get to see a bit of South Africa while I'm there. Sounds like a win-win situation for everyone.

There definitely is a mutually supportive relationship between South Africa and Australia, and with Thales. There's a Memorandum of Co-operation signed between South Africa and Australia that formalises a relationship of co-operation. For some reason they've decided that it's in their mutual interest for Airservices to provide a contingent of controllers to South Africa. Beyond that, we know little or nothing.

:8

[anatc2]

I would like to shed a bit more light on the issues around the jobs in RSA. Everyone seems to be seeing it from a negative side and much is not known to you all. Firstly, we will welcome any foreigners with open arms, we are a great bunch of people and we love what we do even if under trying circumstances sometimes.

Things are definately looking up at JIA, there are currently 4 students on Approach and 4 on Area, this means that in a couple of months we will be up to 8 if not more days off. a new course starts soon and more students will arrive to fill seats. The main reason we need foreign help is to release the staff to go and train on the new equipment. SAA did that when they got their new 737/800 with the Argentinians and yet that was acceptable!!!

The salaries are slowly but surely coming right and by next April everyone should be on the correct scale. We all live comfortably on what we earn, and i feel sorry for those of you whose lives revolve around money, life is to short to live for money alone.

As for living in South Africa well it is no Holiday Resort but Name a place that is. We have our problems but again lets look at the bright side, Our rand is the strongest performing currency against the dollar, our houses are cheap, our cost of living is coming down and is already much lower than most places in the world. We have 2 oceans, deserts, the best game parks in the world, mountains with snow and Biltong!!! We live in one of the most beautiful places in the world and more and more tourists are coming here making RSA one the most attractive tourist destinations in the world. This leads to an increase in air traffic and an ever changing dynamic ATC.

If you have never been here and you have the oppurtunity then grab it, you can't slam something you have never tried!!!

To the few putting us down, When things are perfect here i hope you look at us from your flat in the desert or your house in the freezing snow and realise maybe running away is not the answer. Things are changing rapidly and soon there will be no place for you here anyway!!

To the few who are deciding whether to come or not, join us!! We are keen to meet new people and if you love REAL ATC, then JIA is the place to be!!!!!

[bigmanatc]

anatc2......there you go......just what we wanted to hear.....

quote : things are changing and soon there will be no place for you.........

That really is the problem....attitude....not money.....how long before the new students you mention also up and leave...?

By the way...my flat in the desert is just fine...its free...!!...oh and right next to an ocean too......:cool:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

For all the Aussie's about to put their hand up for Sth Africa, fine do it for the experience but not for the money. First hand I can tell you the rand has been strong (but recently tapered off) but the Aussie dollar has been booming, so if you can keep getting paid in Aussie dollars back home, if not well as I said do this for the experience not the money.

One interesting thing will be to see whether this bites ASA in the arse cos from personal experience, once you see the ATC world out there it is very hard to nestle back into the cosy cocoon that ASA is. And as I was told by my Aussie colleagues when I came Mid-East "Keep your head down", as this applies even more in Sth Africa from what I've been told, cos them real bullets.

My Flat is fine as well, and gee....what were those things called income tax and electricity/water/education bills. Life is good believe me.

P.P.S Oops left the car unlocked.....ah well no one will steal it as theres no crime here.

[ZRH]

The snow has to be feezing, otherwise the skiing is not fun!

[Spank me baby!!!]

This is a link to the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade website for Travel Advice when travelling to the following destinations:


South Africa

www.dfat.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/South_Africa


United Arab Emirates

www.dfat.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/United_Arab_Emirates


Saudia Arabia

www.dfat.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Saudi_Arabia


:8

[Plazbot]

while we are at it....


these are recruiting as well



http://www.dfat.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Canada

[saywhat]

I am not an ATC, but a very interested observer. I find it amazing that it is going to take untill April next year to sort out the local ATC's salaries, however, the bucks are there for the foreigners immediately.

This said, I must say that South Africa is a great place. It is not for everyone, but which place is? To those who do come to work here, welcome, and may your stay be filled with much beer (about 1 Aus $ a pint) and lots of laughter (free). There will be a lot of grouching to be heard in the corridores, however, you will see that the ATC's in South Africa are a great bunch with lots of spirit. I have absolutely no doubt that you will be welcomed to your positions, and that you will enjoy your stay in our stunning country. This said I must warn you that under no circumstances are you to mention the World cup cricket or the Super 12 rugby, as this is a bit of a sore point. The local South Africans find it very difficult to lose to Aussies.

remember to drive fast and be careless out there

[makeapullup]

P.P.S Oops left the car unlocked.....ah well no one will steal it as theres no crime here.

That sounds like hard work.

[Spank me baby!!!]

MISAIR,

What sort of system do you use? Is it a Eurocat system made by Thales? Are you a part of the Eurocontrol system, or independent of it?

:8

[MISAIR]

Spanky

We will have a new system, hopefully, in december. The Eurocat 2000 by Thales. So far my only experience from it is CBT (computer based training) just to get familiar with it.

At the moment we have a great, but old, system from the early seventies.

Our flightplan system is connected to a mainframe in Bruxelles and an other in Paris.
The radar system is independent, Stockholm FIR.

[billbomber]

For all the sapastics in the Middle East who are getting involved and putting their 2 bobs worth in. Stay out of it! Its got nothing to do with you. Do I sense a hint of jealousy that you guys didn't get this opportunity before you got money hungry and packed up and left.

Dont ruin it for future people who will have to go and live there after the abuse you guys have given the Sth Africans. And yeah you may have no bills and there may be no crime, but you've chosen to live in a place thats very family friendly (not) and extremely hot. Not to mention the fact you'e in a completly different society that westerners are used to. There's no way I could bring my family up in the middle east.

All I can sense in your posts are excuses you guys make for moving there. Let me tell you, money isn't everything and happiness comes before financial incentives. You'll soon learn.

And dont accuse us of being money hungry, have a look what you guys have done. We all know there's only one reason you're over there, and good on you I reckon. But one last thing, start your own subject posting and bag the crap out of each other and AsA there, leave this one for people to find out career opportunity facts!!!!

[TrafficTraffic]

A good post with some good observations. But please dont confuse what the message is (from me at least). I think it is a great idea and would definitely be a great experience and maybe, shows AsA is developing its maturity.

BUT


What I wouldnt like to see is a bunch of Aussie guys (and/or gals) going over to SA when the industrial situation is strained - If It appears that the troops over there are ready to welcome all of you then great do it - I assume you have all had direction friom Civilair on the matter - have you?

Because it is well worth looking forward a little - unlike the EBA of 96' and when AsA finds in 20XX that is short of controllers in a position and recruits overseas to fill these positions - you, the worker, have already set a precedent.....

you went to SA to help them out so we have a few chaps coming from _____ to help us out......you dont mind do you

P.S. we are going to pay them a little better too - thats ok, isnt it?

I am sure Civilair have been in contact with their colleagues in SA and have discussed this at length and have given all the candidates in Aus all the details and guidelines to follow - or will do shortly! :suspect: :ouch:

[ferris]

I'll think you'll find that those of us in the middle east are only posting on this thread at the behest of our ex-Jo'burg colleagues here. I realise you are ignorant and ill-informed, so here are some facts;
-There are many, many Sth Africans in the middle east, emminently qualified to 'put their two bob's in'. I believe many of them are reluctant to post themselves for fear of prejudicing their chances of ever returning, should that be required. It was recently reported that the number of Sth Africans in the GCC states has exceeded the number of British citizens.
-How is 'telling it like it is' ruining it, or abusing the Sth Africans? It is the S.A's passing the information.
-No one (as far as I can see) is accusing anyone of being money hungry, except you. It was merely pointed out that you were not going to make a pile of money by going there, so you had better check your motivations before going. I think I quite clearly stated that if you wanted the experience, that was fine. Just be informed before you go.
-Jealous? What makes you think that if we applied from over here, we wouldn't be taken? Several guys from the middle east have applied and been accepted. As full time employees. Maybe those that didn't apply, actually prefer it here?
-Excuses for moving here? Maybe you see that in some posts, but I will endeavor not to try and project that. I certainly don't regret coming here at all. Money was only a number of many reasons.
-Not to mention the fact you'e in a completly different society that westerners are used to. There's no way I could bring my family up in the middle east. Obviously you'll go really well in another country. Good luck with making the adjustment to Africa.
-Please desist from speaking on subjects of which you clearly have no knowledge. Never been to the middle east? What makes you think my family is not happy, the place where I am is not family friendly, or the weather is not to our liking? Do you even know what the actual wx is like? Do you realise many people come here for the wx (Europeans, Brits etc)?

Your post smacks of "manager". The internet is a fabulous resource for information. If you don't like the information that is flowing, what does that tell you?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I have to say I only started to get on my high horse about no crime/no bills etc when some of you guys started to bag the middle east. And here we go I'm mounting that high horse again.

To say that the UAE is not family friendly is a joke. First of all living here, we have a couple of great schools, by international standards, and the tuition is paid for by the company. The big shopping malls each have a huge play/ canival type area set aside for children with little rollercoasters and merry go rounds etc. There are really strong mothers groups over here where they all get together in the parks to play. You go down to the Club and all the kids are playing on the beach or at the pool every day, all day. Here due to the living arrangements you can't just say to your kid, "go play outside", while you continue to watch the TV, but I think thats a good thing, you have to make the effort. Basically don't talk about what you don't know.

Again like Ferris, I came here for more reasons than money. Personally my reasons were, a big No. 1, disgust at my employers heartless approach to its employess. No.2 Boredom and stagnation with the whole streaming/deadend career structure (ie.Sit on Canty for 5 years). No.3 Yes Money,at home even on the big money I always had to battle to make ends meet, here there are no ends. No.4 To see the world, being no more than 8 hours from most of the world.

We have never accused these guys going to Sth Africa as being money hungry, the opposite in fact. Yes that post from billbomber, first post ever, sounds very much like a manager who doesn't want his little project to get scuttled by some guys giving some gentle warnings.

[MISAIR]

Hey, hey guys!!

C´mon, let´s all be happy about where we are working for the moment. Every country has it´s ups and downs.

I´m registered at this homepage to be able to get an idea of how it is to be working in SA.
Maybe we shouldn´t speculate too much about how the situation is at other places, where we don´t work ourselves. OK?

You guys who work in UAE, tell us how you guys have it. But the situation in SA I´d like to hear from South African controllers.

Aussies who wants to go to SA. Just go, we don´t have to argue with the guys in UAE because of that.

Get in touch with the people who has worked in SA, not the ones who have heard about how it is there. Details have a curious way of getting wrong in the end.

I work at the same ATCC as Pia and Lasse. They were in SA for a couple of years. And now they wanna go back.
That´s good enough evidence for me that SA is a good country to go to. There will be more ups than downs.

The idea that the South Africans would dislike all controllers that come there because we earn so much money..... They wouldnt educate us and so on.

Of course that wouldn´t be fun at all. But I don´t think that would happen.
All the South Africans I´ve been talking to have said that it wouldn´t happen. And I believe that, cause I wouldn´t be able to do it if our situations where the other way around.

[divingduck]

I must, of course, echo what Ferris and ANSA have said.

Billbomber, you have no idea about which you are speaking, so kindly stick to commenting on that which you have definite personal experience.

I live in the ME and have done so for nearly 6 years now.
To say that it is not family oriented is a complete misnomer. Nothing could be further from the truth. That non-western culture that you couldn’t possibly live with is actually very family oriented.
Just because there isn’t a MacDonalds or Burger King on every corner doesn’t make it a bad place.
The weather has it’s good and bad points…but so did every location that I lived in in Australia.
The kids loved being here, the schools are top notch, and they get to interact with other kids from many other cultures on a daily basis. That is the way to international understanding, not your thinly disguised xenophobia.
I grant you that UAE isn’t the place that Oman is, but very few places in the world are.

Ferris has told you that he is posting on behalf of several of the SA controllers…because like our old management, the SA management have long memories and may bear that grudge if they ever wish to return.

Lots of Aussies work in the ME, not just for money (although it is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Oz), nor just the travel, but for the whole experience of living outside our home country.
There are also many Aussies in Canada and Europe (hi Justin and Traffic Traffic, long time no hear) who also didn’t just dash for the cash.

I can only echo again what others have said... has the union in SA given it’s blessing to this and what has been communicated to Civilair?
Because if we (Aussies) do this now, the thin end of the wedge has been inserted into our own industrial arena, and we can hardly complain when, in a few years time, ASA gets a few expats in to “help out” and pays them above award salaries for doing it.
Or...pays them well below our award...on individual contracts and uses them to force our controllers into positions that would have been unthinkable a few years ago.

Listen with both ears now, if you want to go for the experience, go by all means, have a great time, just don’t expect to make a load of money (as has been pointed out) and don’t slag off the rest of us working o/s because we do.

To all those Europeans out there reading this, sorry about this, there are a few back at home that need straightening out.

I must go and have that coffee...don't usually ramble at this time of day......

[Spank me baby!!!]

The issue has been raised at the last CivilAir meeting in the Melbourne Centre. CivilAir has written to GATCSA and I have e-mailed the South African link that was provided in this forum.

I have not received a response from GATCSA and I have not been directed by CivilAir to refuse the contract. The only negative advice has come from ex-pats in countries outside of South Africa, so, if I'm offered a contract this week, there's not a lot of reason to turn it down.


MISAIR,

I look forward to meeting you and your Scandinavian colleagues in Jo'burg and I'm sure we will make many friends amongst our South African colleagues. :ok:

[ferris]

Have they sorted out the tax issue? That is the main thing I would be worried about.

The latest we have heard here is; the SA controllers don't have much choice about OJT. They will be directed to do it, and cannot refuse. They are in a catch 22. They are hanging out for the relief that the extra staff will bring, but are pissed off about the way it's being done. Staff going over need not fear any ill will, the controllers realise it is not their fault.

So I hope it all works out ie. it is a positive experience, and that controllers are the winners. Enjoy.

[126,7]

I used to work at FAJS several years ago and the main reason I left was that I couldnt make ends meet. My wife had a good job, but I still struggled to pay for my average house and our two average cars. The expensive part was my kids' private school. Didnt trust the state-run schools.
Now that I am in Europe, I see how good these guys have it here. The company I work for actually looks after its employees.(Sounds crazy) You dont get suspended for the period of time it takes to evaluate the reduction/near-miss you or the pilot might have caused. In SA they banned you to work FIC until things were cleared up. Guilty until proven innocent! This often took close on two months.
The other thing about Jo-burg. The airspace was so huge! It was not unusual to work 50-60 aircraft per hour and there is no flow control for the area sectors. Not that I am scared of traffic, we got more than our share worth over here! It would also be less stressful when you're neighbouring sectors are playing along. No flight plans, no estimates no nothing....safety is not written with a capital letter by most ATC providers in Africa.
Where there has been a decline in aircraft movements elsewhere, South Africa has experienced a steady increase. Just a year or so ago, they increased the Jo-burg airspace by a huge chunk too!!
If you make a mistake, they ban you to FIC which is one of the worst punishments I can imagine! No support whatsoever.

I dont know why the South Africans dont post much on PPRUNE. Its probably like Ferris said in one of his previous post" they cant read or write", never mind being able to use a computer :-)
There is no disputing the fact that SA is a beautiful country. And I would like to go back as soon as I have enough money together to pay my house and cars cash, and have seen the world.
Ferris, teach those guys out there what to do with a PC!

I am all for the foreigners working at FAJS to help out. Dont know how much they can help in only 18 months.

Dont expect much from GATSCA. They havent really ever stood up to ATNS and I dont expect that to change either.....

[anatc2]

It is great to see some people standing up for us way down south. Things are going up and we would like you to join the ride. If Lars and Pia want to come back so badly how bad can it be???

The more the merrier!!!!RSA RULZ!!

[The Euronator]

Billbomber,

You said

Do I sense a hint of jealousy that you guys didn't get this opportunity before you got money hungry and packed up and left.

Remember mate, if it wasn't for the guys leaving to go to the Mid East,Canada,Europe etc. this opportunity wouldn't be available to you either. It took an outflux of controllers from Aus in Early 2000/01 for management to realise that if this persisted, combined with the age profile of certain areas within Airservices ie Major Centre Towers etc. a massive recruitment campaign may have been necessary as well. A certain European organisation had a recruitment campaign of 3 intakes for controllers in early 2000/2001. It attracted (as far as I know) 3 applications from Aus for the first intake. The second intake attracted 25 applications from Australia ( 14, I am sure about). Do you think management was getting worried??. Hell, Yes. This combined with those people leaving for Hong Kong,Mid East etc. has more than likely brought management to the realisation that they
1. Have a valuable commodity in keeping an ATC on the books for outsourcing to foreign organisations.
2. Providing LWOP or something similar eg. South African jobs will alleviate the surplus now and provide for more experienced staff to fill future staffing requirements.

Don't be too quick to jump on your high horse and accuse these ATC's of going for the money blindly. Sure, money is a huge factor but you have to realise that these people have to provide for their families with the very real possibility that they may never get their jobs back in Aus. Remember they didn't have the luxury you are about to be given ie. LWOP, and it is from them leaving you more than likely have been given this opportunity. Oh, and the fact ASA Management is probably making double on your services to what they are paying you anyway.

you've chosen to live in a place thats very family friendly (not) and extremely hot. Not to mention the fact you'e in a completly different society that westerners are used to. There's no way I could bring my family up in the middle east.

I gather from your tone you have lived there, myself, I have not and like everywhere, there are places to live and places not to. Your comment that it is a completely different society that westerners are used to, may be correct but I have lived and continue to live in a Western society that is very,very different to Australia, and at time it is very testing, I assure you. On the otherhand it is an experience I will never forget and sometimes look back on with a more than content smile on my face. Rash generalisations like those you show simply displays a naivity hopefully your progression through the years will counteract.

[Spank me baby!!!]

...we soooooo need a separate thread for the whole "working in the Middle East" thing.... please, please, someone start one!!!

:{ :{ :{ :{ :{

[EXATC]

It's with some interest that I've been following the discussion in this group. I too was an EX-FAJS controller. I left in the mid 90's for a position in the middle east, being one of the the first of many. I was quite fortunate at the time that I had a foreign passport because S'Africans were outcasts at the time.

Anyway, my reasons for leaving were the same as 126,7. ATNS had a complete and utter disregard for the well being of it's staff. We were treated like criminals for the slightest incident. At the time I remember that a number of the ATC's were suspended for something as minor as a go-around. Isn't that why pilots learn to do go-arounds during their PPL's? Together with this was their "head in the sand" syndrome approach to managing the staff situation when ATC's did leave, putting immense pressure on those remaining to fill the seats. Needless to say our hours rocketed and at one stage I personally worked 54 days continuously with the only break being the day after I'd come off a night shift. For anyone who'd like to dispute this I still have my rostered shifts, as a reminder why I left a country I loved and moved to the middle east.

Just to elaborate on a bit of the history of ATC in SA. I joined in the late 80's before the current ATC complex had been built. At the time disputes with the Dept of Transport led to ATC's leaving in numbers in 1989. At the time most became Real Estate agents and the like because SA's weren't accepted anywhere else. Again in 1994-1995 disputes with ATNS and condtitions described above led another mass exodus. ATNS's solution then was to force new prospective ATC's to sign a 5 yr contract as the only means to ensure that they kept their staff. Well LO AND BEHOLD, 5yrs came and went and the new ATC's all packed up and left. Now in 2003 ATNS once again is all over the newpapers and TV for staff shortages. So it seems the never ending cycle continues!

As for me I left the middle east in the late 90's and in doing so left ATC altogether. Believe me that I still miss being an ATC but decided to leave rather than work for ATNS again.

So for those who wish to come to SA, I'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms. It is a beautiful country to live in, you just have to be a bit careful as you do anywhere else. Otherwise the only concerns you should have are the tax laws and the management of ATNS.

Best wishes.

[ferris]

Picture this:

Peter Evans or Adrian Dumsa or whoever approaches you at work. "We obtained a court order, and determined from the pprune website owner's register of IP addresses that you are 'Spank me Baby'. You are hereby terminated under the companies' 'disrepute' disciplinary rules. Hand in your headset at the door." Couldn't happen? Well it could in S.A.

Maybe that is why all the (negative) posts you read about S.A. are generated from outside S.A. Some of us are trying to play the ball, but OTHERS keep raising the middle east. Why don't you listen to the advice and check it out for yourself, instead of shooting the messengers?

[Spank me baby!!!]

Wwwwhhhhaaaaaaaa!!!

I just want all the nasty Middle East bitching to goooooo away!!!!!

:{ :{ :{ :{ :{

[bigmanatc]

EX ATC.........

You got it spot on.........take heed all you would be immigrants.....;)

[Quokka]

Ferris.... being the "messenger" doesn't give you free license to attack individuals on a personal level. If you are a messenger, then deliver the message verbatim and stick to facts. Leave the personal judgements for when you meet the person in a bar somewhere outside of work. I've watched you abuse and threaten a number of users, including two newcomers to the forum, whom I'm sure were really appreciative of the welcome you gave them. Whilst some have used this forum to generate discussion and exchange knowledge, you have censured every contribution that didn't agree with your politics or match your personal agenda. Please, let the rest of us find out as much as we can about the ATNS/AsA/Thales contract issue and have all opinions respected.

[TrafficTraffic]

Situation Display







.<---- Point - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Quokka----> :8


I wish everybody involved all the best.

[ferris]

I dunno, I've just re-read the thread, and I think I have tried to provide information? I've been doing a lot of defending of myself, over accusations I'm running a personal agenda, but censuring other views? Please. Provide the examples. I thought the message I had been sending was clear; if you want the experience, fine, but check the facts for yourself first , don't just believe everything you are told by some 'manager bearing gifts'. Ex-S.A. controllers asked me to post, on their behalf. I thought I made that clear? Of the 34 controllers at the ACC here, some 16 are Sth Africans, so I have no shortage of people whispering in my ear.

If you are talking about other threads- well, again, provide the examples. I don't exactly know what you are getting at, but I have a habit of defending myself when attacked! I have occasionally been attacked by people who have obviously created a second (or third or whatever) identity, purely for the purpose. This generally happens when someone is too spineless to have a dig under their own identity. Occasionally, journalists create identities in order to trawl around these fora for some salacious tid-bits to make a story. You tell me, precious little Quokka.
If anyone has been personalising the discussion, it is you.

If the info I'm providing doesn't fit with your aspiration, fine. If your stated "I just want to help out and have a roof over my head" intention is real, fine. Just have a think about the big picture, get the facts, all of them, and the potential long term damage you could be doing. For instance, did you now realise that because ATNS had such an eager response to this campaign in oz, they are now lording it over the ex-pats around the world with "you better come back now, or there'll be no jobs...." So much for your caring, sharing philosophy.

[anatc2]

I am an ATC at FAJS. If anyone has any questions i will try to help as much as i can.

[ferris]

1. Do you feel under any duress about posting comments that may be negative towards ATNS?
2. (Aside from the crime issue) Is your country a beautiful place with a welcoming attitude towards visitors?
3. Will controllers arriving on contracts be subject to any antogonism, either on a personal or professional level?
3. Do you believe that ATNS will be able to train enough staff to alleviate the shortage, or will this reliance on contractors continue? (or is management labouring under the fantasy that the introduction of the Thales system will allow a reduction in controller requirements?)
4. Is it the belief on the floor that the money being spent on Australian contractors could have been better spent on a salary package that would have lured many ex-pats back? (given that they are so close to that position)
5. Are you aware of the conditions that the contractors are coming in on? If so, is the package adequate (ref. housing, schools, cars etc).
6. Are there any other matters that you think those choosing to come should be aware of?

Any other S.A. controllers out there, feel free to join in!! I know you are watching.

[anatc2]

Ferris, i will try to answer your questions.

1. I have no fear at all in being honest about ATNS, we have been to the local newspapers and tv. The situation is well known to all in the industry.
2. This is one of the most beautiful places in the world. We have everything in one country. Our weather is fantastic and our beaches vast. Cape town is famous for it's mountains and beautiful people!!!
3. The staffing situation is really improving, there are students at both Approach and Area at FAJS and a few are close to being solo. Our staffing levels are improving monthly!!We won't be relying on the foreigners for to long as we are trying to fix the shortage inhouse and locally.
4.I do agree that money may be a problem in terms of foreigners being paid more than locals but from the point of view that we have stayed through the tough times and would like to be recognised.
5. Unfortunately i am unfamiliar with the contract terms but the salary offered is what our most experianced controllers will be earning, i might be lying but i think a housing allowance is included(don't quote me on that!!)
6. We will welcome any foreigners and we won't resent you or isolate you, that would be cutting off our nose to spite our faces. We need help, and if you want to experiance a great country with great people and all the sights that go with it then give it a go.

I hope that was helpful!!!

[Spank me baby!!!]

I didn't get offered a contract.... sniff... sniff... :{

[MISAIR]

Spanky!!

I´m sorry to hear that!
Have all aussies got an answer?

ANACT2

Thanks for your answers. We hope things will start rolling soon. Maybe we meet in the fall.

[bigmanatc]

You forgot to mention the crime.......here`s todays paper......


· Democratic Alliance spokesperson Douglas Gibson condemned the killing, saying violent crime seemed to have spiralled out of control in Johannesburg, instilling fear in residents.




· This article was originally published on page 2 of The Star on May 19, 2003

[ZRH]

anatc2 doesnt really tell us much.
The country is beautiful(we know that), two oceans(we know that, but most people didnt know that the closest one is about 5,5hrs drive from JNB), Cape Town(yip, we knew about that one). He didnt tell us that Cape Town is 1600km from JNB though!!
126,7 and EXATC have given us the best info as far as working procedures and life at ATNS are concerned. anatc2 sounds like a broken record who is either in management or aspiring to get there soonest. He allready has the phraseology right" there will be no place for you"!!
Tks mate, seems like nothing has changed there. Keep on shafting the locals!:ugh:

[Little One]

Its been with interest that I have been reading this thread for a long time.

It seems that those that are not in Sa any more seem to know more about ATNS than most current employees.

I do agree with ferris on some points like that all promises made by the party offering the contracts should be obtained in writing etc.

I did not have a good track record with the one that came over to offer the contracts when he was in a Managerial possition however he has been replaced by a far more understanding and approachable MATS.

SA is a good place to live and the crime being blown out of proportion at times. Yes it is there but if one is carefull and aware of ones surrounds then it usually should not affect you. And I know Lars and Pia were held up in thier own home and it was very unfortunate but the majority of us have not been affected by crime to a point where we think it intolerable. After all we are still here. I personally live quite far from work in a cosy suberb that is relativly safe but that is my choice.

A lot of the incidents referred to by 126.7 and ex atc etc do not happen any more. we do still get on ave 6/7 days off per 28 but the incidents being unresolved for long periods was an old regime problem and the new managers seem to be doing better (at this stage at least) however all incidents are still investigated including go-arounds

And ferris to answer yr questions
1 yes there is worry about posting comments but as you can see I have used my normal handle instead of creating a new one since every time someone does that you accuse them of being management or the likes when in reality the reason that they have only posted once is cause they are using a new handle
2 Yes SA is great and asside from the suicide bombings is the UAE great. I'm sure you will say yes as well so you see every place has negatives but as long as you feel that the positives out way then you will want to stay.
The sea is far away, so what from JNB we still have great areas to visit ie Magalie 30min drive Vaal dam 1 hr drive and in and around JNB there is still lots to do if you know where to go (like any other place) all you can find in a brocure ie zoos botanical gardens craft markets sporting complexes. I'm sure you will find something to interest just about anyone.
3 ATNS is trying to train the staff required but we will need the foreigners for a while especially when (if) we use the new system as it is staff hungry but obvoisly the goal for any company is to be self suffecient ( management speak) but the time it takes for that to happen is beyond me
4 The money could have been used better years ago but it wassn't so now we need a fix It is not ideal that the foreigners will be paid so much but I have did not make that desicion Why spite all incl myself by being disgruntelled to those that may come in when it was a manager that made all the mess ups to put us in this situation. Some people will always be unhappy with thier salary package and will want more and they could have a point but is the money better than getting better working conditions ie 10 days off.
5 I do not know how the contracts are structured
6 Other things that should be made aware yes they are looking for people with RADAR experience essentially
On a whole we have a relativle young centre at FAJS and most people get along. There is no reason one wouldn't be accepted here being AUS or Swede (Hot blonde and female will help your personality points though). we are relativly young as those that have finished there contracts usually leave. The SA salary scales are only up to 5 yr notches ( the lengh of contract) and then people leave probably needs addressing by some one up high but when is another thing


I await with baited breath to see what comes of this.

[Quokka]

I declined to accept the contract. The fine print included some unacceptable clauses.

[126,7]

Quokka
And they werent willing to negotiate?
Littleone
Tks for showing some backbone and writing a decent thread.

[ferris]

Quokka;
Hopefully this forum helped you by providing some balance to 'the roadshow'? What was in the contract that was unacceptable? No need to be too specific, if you don't mind sharing the info.

Little One;
My interest is not slagging off Sth. Africa. I know how these prick's operate. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and for reasons known only to themselves (probably money), these managers choose the wrong way time after time. It's almost like they don't want the staff to be happy. There are lots of guys here eager to go home, and I believe managers there know exactly what is required, yet head off around the world spending that money hiring foreigners. While in the short term that might be a nice way for people to get out and experience the world, long term is does S.A. no good. It also helps if those foreigners know what they are getting into (they are used to very different industrial law).
ps. Yes SA is great and asside from the suicide bombings is the UAE great. You wonder why people here get chips on their shoulder? There haven't been any problems here. If we felt threatened by that sort of stuff, we wouldn't be here. That comment is a bit like saying "I've heard about all the trouble in Morocco, is it safe to go to Africa?"

[EXATC]

Little One, I agree with you that the only people who really know what's going on at FAJS is the people who currently work there. However, the facts still speak for themselves. Why are you so short of ATC's? If things have improved as you claim the shortage wouldn't be a problem, would it?

It seems to me from this thread that the Ex-FAJS controllers hold a very strong grudge against ATNS. The question I ask is why? I'm not trying to second-guess anyone but it seems like the majority of the EX-FAJS controllers left for reasons of which only a little part was money (I'll open this one up for comments).

1. I agree that your new MATS appears to be a good choice. If I'm not mistaken he himself spent a very short spell in the UAE and would possibly have still been there if circumstances had permitted, so I'm sure he knows why ATC's leave for other pastures. I just hope that like the previous MATS's that he doesn't become a puppet for Head Office, which in the past has been where the real decisions get made.

2. It seems like you need to look at a map with regards to the location of the UAE and pay more attention to the news as far as suicide bombings go? Just as Africa is not South Africa, the Middle East is not the UAE? The country is Israel if you care to look it up!

3. Lastly you have summed up the situation quite nicely. Everyone leaves after their contact's finish! Is that an echo that I hear?

The more things change the more they stay the same. The cycle continues!

Regards to all.

.

[EltorroLoco]

Belated hello dudes!

I have only just seen this thread so please excuse me for arriving late to the debate.

Quite a stir this little country at the bottom of Africa is causing ne'?

Probably the best way to get info is to just deal with the facts and let everyone else make up their own mind. I can only tell you what my circumstances are since everyone @ JHB gets a different salary (go figure) and everyone plays their cards close to the chest.

I am an approach & tower validated ATC @ Johannesburg. I get 20 days leave per year. I get 6 days off per 28 day cycle, this may, but more likely will not include a full weekend. My take home salary after tax is R18000 per month. The day shifts are mostly 7 hrs in length with one 1 hr break. The day shifts start @ 6am and the last finishes @ 8 or 9pm. I'm sure you can work out how long the night shifts are (Yep, I can read, write and do maths!).

One gets 60 days sick leave over a 3 year cycle, and anytime one books off a doctor's note may be required. Medical aid is included in the after tax salary and it's quite good (Discovery) in comparison to others in SA, but not exemplary. It is quite complex and includes self-payment gaps and Medical Savings Accounts etc.

As to the answers to some questions:

I think ATNS is responding slowly to the training needs @ JHB but this will take a long time to reap the benefits. One also needs to remember that with 1 or 2 Approach sectors open, it's quite hard to have more than 2 students per day, so it is inherantly a slow system (no matter where you are from). They are starting with an accelerated system of training called EDUCATS, the merits of which remain to be seen.

The staffing situation is not improving as yet, there were 21 approach controllers in 1994, there are now 18 on the roster today. Traffic is alleged to be 108% more (ATNS figures), this is probably the fuel for much debate. (What the ATCs were paid in 1994, I have no idea).

There would probably be some initial antagonism to foreigners coming to work here for better pay. It would depend on those individuals as to how long it lasts. There has been talk of no OJTI until their packages is made public and debate allowed. As to whether this will actually happen? Angaas. Whether the instrucors would not give OJTI come crunchtime? Angaas... Someone mentioned to me the other day that these people would be getting their salary no matter where they worked, so they might as well come and work here. Fair point.

ATNS has had a history of punitive management, which I think has not fundamentally changed, it's just a little camouflaged now. One feels very much part of and loyal to the job and one's co-workers, but not really much of the above for ATNS. This is true despite the fact that ATNS pays for all one's training as well a salary whilst under training. A lot can probably be read into that.

As to the country, well it's just great. Bear in mind though that it looks pretty small on the map, but it's a couple of hours drive to anything worthwhile for a nature enthusiast. The crime is a problem, I don't personally know anyone who has never been touched by crime. This said, there are precautions one can take which make things acceptably safe, e.g. secuity complexes, alarms, vehicle tracking. It's probably painful if you are not used to it, but unobtrusive if you are.

My advice to any would be applicants is to get as many e-mail addresses from someone here, and talk to them. It's not an easy decision, for us locals (sic) or the imports. The size of this thread can attest to that, so get as much info as possible and make an informed decision.

Hope this was of some help to some of you dudes!

[EXATC]

EltorroLoco, thanks for the input. I think it's probably to most accurate picture of what's going on so far. However I would just like to mention that the number of controllers does vary significantly from what you have said. It wasn't mentioned that in the beginning to middle of 1995 there were only 7 dedicated APP controllers and 2 or 3 from management to fill in the gaps. With FAJS supposedly running 2 APP sectors manned by 2 controllers each.... well you do the maths. Additionally I agree the the traffic has increased significantly but also the airspace available has also increased by 30% by taking over the previous Military Restriced Area north of FAJS, which I'm sure eased the traffic flow somwhat. ATNS's figures don't quite agree with what ACSA or IATA say, but that's another topic. Once again thanks for the input.

[Little One]

With regard to the bombings I was referring to the ones in Riyaad (forgive spelling I don't have a map) but the point was made by Ferris There haven't been any problems here. If we felt threatened by that sort of stuff, we wouldn't be here.

Same as here the crime to a point is localised. There are bad areas that if you avoid shouldn't affect you and we are still here in Sa afterall.

EXATC yes people did leave for other reasons and these were mostly personality clashes between them and ex management. The choice to leave is just made so much sweeter if one will get more money out of it. Also some family types especially didn't quite appreciate the 6 days off in 28. This is still a big bone of contention here and working conditions are a big point to ponder if you want to leave.

If you take the precauthions as eltorro pointed out the security issue is usually only cared for on a subconcious level.

If you are thinking about it I say go for it and come join us feel free to e-mail any of us for more info like what security we have in place to what we do in our valued spare time. Get as much info as possible to make the best choice but get it from those in SA as the expats could be a little out of touch, but they are not always wrong ( there are valid points made in this forum)

[bigmanatc]

Improvements you say........hmm...well when I used to work in SA we got 30 days leave per year which was accruable....you now get 20 days !! ..........going backwards it seems....6 days off a month ...don`t think thats quite enough.......us out of touch expats definately are IN touch.......

[126,7]

Heard a rumour that Denmark has way too many ATCs. They are sending the older blokes on early retirement, will not be training new ATCs for a period of 5 years or so and are in talks with ATNS about sending surplus ATCs to Joburg!!

[separator]

The saga continues:

This appeared today.


"To All Air Traffic Control Staff



Subject: ATNS Secondment Progress



Progress is continuing to be made on the business and contractual arrangements surrounding the secondment of Airservices Australia’s air traffic controllers to South Africa. The taxation matters referred to in the update of 6 May 2003 appear to have been resolved this week and final arrangements are now being made to progress this opportunity with individual staff.



Charles Norval of ATNS has concluded interviews with staff and has returned to South Africa. Charles has provided Airservices Australia with a preferred list of names of ATCs and we have now considered and determined our ability to release those individual staff.



The following action will take place over the coming days.



Airservices Australia will:



o provide formal letters of offer and contracts to those ATC staff who ATNS have nominated as suitable, and who are able to be released by Airservices Australia:

– firstly to those able to be released in the period Jun-Aug 03, and

– secondly, to those who are able to be released in the period Sept 03 – April 04.



o formally advise those staff who were unsuccessful in being selected by ATNS on this occasion. We do understand that some staff may be disappointed, but this is only the start of what we hope is an ongoing business relationship and we do expect other opportunities to arise with ATNS from the middle of next year. Staff unsuccessful on this occasion will be able to seek re-interview at that time.



I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of those staff who submitted expressions of interest in the ATNS secondment opportunity. For those staff that have been selected and who take up the opportunity, I wish you well in South Africa and hope that it is an enjoyable and memorable work and life experience.



Susan Keey"

sep

[MISAIR]

Hi guys!

There will not be any Swedes coming to SA at this time.
Swedavias offer was too expensive for ATNS.

Good luck all you people that are going!

And good luck to all you SA-controllers, with the new system and new colleagues!!

TAke care!!

[ferris]

Does anybody have any info on how it is all going?

Would also be interested inThe taxation matters referred to in the update of 6 May 2003 appear to have been resolved this week how this was achieved?

[tyrant]

So what do we get????????????????

At this stage, a couple of Kenyans and 3 Uraguayens.

Say no more

Talk about going the cheapest route.

[126,7]

tyrant

You're joking right??

I flew into Nairobi once and the ATC service was atrocious, from the time we entered the FIR until we took off again and were glad to be told to contact Dar es Salam! Scary stuff...

Tell us more about the South Americans. Have these guys accepted the contracts?

EL cheapo ATNS

[tyrant]

I sh:mad: t you not 126.7

2 Kenyans for Durbs, 2 Ury's for CT and 1 Ury for JS Central with i think another 1 kenyan a bit later on for durban.

Apparently all the accepted went through testing at the college and passed.

Its strange none of the contractees are going to JS itself. It appears that the plan is to get the Ury's and the kenyans to the outstations so that local staff can be released and sent to JS.

Possibly waiting for the ozzies to go to JS because of the Thales issue.

Ah well who knows

Later

T

[bigmanatc]

The salaries are obviously a fortune for them.....but I wonder who`s gonna sign them out.....:oh: or is this a political question...:yuk:

[Dumas]

:{ It was with horror that I read MISAIR's post about no swedes coming to FAJS.

All the Europeans we've had in Joburg have gone solo. The Scandinavians were the best by far. According to some of the guys who went to Oz to do the initial training on the new system, the Aussies are going to :mad: themselves when they see how we work at Joburg. No controlling slumped back in your chair here mate!!!!! Out of 4 Aussies we've ever had, only 1 made it and he was rather bad. :uhoh:

To make a final point about ATNS being able to retain staff, it'll be a cold day in hell when that happens. But they are only on plan w now. We still wait in anticipation for x, y and z. :confused:

[Short Approach?]

Seems there might be a few openings for some of us danish controllers. The interviews were carried out two weeks ago, and we're told that we will recieve notice this Friday :-)

Looking forward and keeping fingers crossed! :p

[av8boy]

Is it not Friday yet? Well????

[niknak]

With due respect to their fellow nationals, who else but Kenyans and Ury's would want to work in S.A. ?
The economy is going down the toilet and has been for years, it's one of the most dangerous places in the world to live and work, and the whole ATC system is on the verge of going belly up. :rolleyes:
Makes Zimbabwae sound positively attractive.

[Short Approach?]

Nik nak.

I don't know about the economic situation in SA. I don't know the exact odds for surviving 17 months in SA either. What I do know from correspondence with SA-ATCO's is that SA is a beatiful contry with plenty of possibilities for the 'not to narrow-minded'. PAY... I might face a little less $$$ per month... but then again... $$$ isn't everything... to me, at least.

As to the contract in question, there are still a few issues regarding housing that needs to be clarified. That's why we haven't packed the cases yet :-)

I'm looking forward to be giving my South African collegues a hand with their "belly up ATC-system" :ok:

(That is ONE of the reasons they need relief you know... to start training on the new system) :cool:

Cherio!

[tyrant]

Short approach

Disregard what that fool before you posted

niknak

You are pretty much the most ignorent fool i've ever heard post. It is painfully clear the you don't posses a clue, a brain, or a TV that has anything but a sky news channel.

Please confine your idiotic comments to things you know about, and quit putting down a place that you've never been to. And if i'm wrong, and you have been here, maybe you should have ventured out the hotel and had a look around.

Maybe an education would help too, it's Zimbabwe, not Zimbabwae. :*

[niknak]

Tyrant
I speak from personal experience, having spent some time their and having friends and realtives who still live there.

No insult was meant to the professionalism of the hard working understaffed ATCOs who have to put up with what is basically a shambles, if it came across that way, I apologise to them.

My spelling may not be as good as it could be, but equally, I do have the intelligence not to resort to the tyrade which you resorted to, and I guess that's the difference between you and the vast majority of your fellow countrymen.

[Grogram]

G'Day,
It looks like I will soon be offered a contract to work in Jo'Berg:confused:

I have been following this forum and it seems that the troops are split on the issue.:*:D

I think I need to get the information straight from the horses mouth, (so to speak).

So I am sending the call to SA controllers to fill me in on the exactly what is going on over there. I have a family and security is my number one priority.

Over to you

[The Crimson Fruitbat]

People have posted that at ATNS you can expect to take home around R18,000/month for working around 22 days out of every 28.

In Canada you can expect (now that contract negotiations are over) to take home (after tax) around R30,000 (at the bottom increments) for working 17 days out of every 28. This equates to 60% more coin for 23% less work.

Also, If you did have to work 22 out of 28, the extra 5 days would be at overtime overtime and you would take home (after tax) around R41,000. This is 127% more pay for the same amount of days in the coal mine.

I bring this up coz I know Enroute and TMA staff from AsA are in the Canadian recruiting loop.

If you want to work O/S why not that route? The AsA ATC union (civilair) forum even has a topic on the subject.

Good luck anyway.

[Grogram]

Interesting,
We will be paid our current salary though, not the ATNS salary.

I also believe that the Canada jobs are for full time employment, not a specific contract period. Whereas when you finish up, you have to pay your own way home.

That's not to say it's an unattractive deal.

Just a thought: If the ATNS contract is for a year plus training time, there is nothing to stop you applying to Canada after that. Which if my wife enjoys the OS scene I probably will.

Cheers
Grogram

[The Crimson Fruitbat]

If you aren't taking a pay cut there,
We will be paid our current salary though, not the ATNS salary.
you will probably be making way more coin than the senior controllers (someone posted on page 1 that a 11th year ATNS controller gets around R361,000 all up). If you're on the lower end of the Aussie FPC pay scale and earn say $80,000AUD, this is around R410,000....be careful that you don't go there and find them all feisty and recalcitrant since you will probably be the highest paid guy in the room with a headset on, the moment you step in as a trainee. I reckon you should talk to their union reps in private before you go.

Good luck in your endeavours. :D

Never know, if you ever take the northern route we might have a coupla VBs at the Australia Day Cricket match at the Lake Louise ski resort (very "white" pitch and the ball keeps low) in 2005?

If you ever consider moving to Canada to massage the Aluminum, bring the Mrs on a hol first and have her meet some of the Aussie expat wives etc.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

My 2 cents worth is that here in the UAE I'm getting over 30,000 Rand a month, average between 16 and 18 shifts a month, pay no tax, get all living expences paid for by the company except phone, food and drink (big expense!), and get my kids education paid for. I think big difference between here and Canada/Australia/Sth Africa is the tax. Can't comprehend how much difference it makes having your gross salary the same as your net salary till you get here.

I know what the response will be.... but I would never live in the middle east!! Fair enough if thats the way you feel but don't discount it without looking into it.
Cheers.

Oh I forgot we get 8 weeks leave a year, and reunion flights (cash given to the value of the flights) each year.

[ferris]

Can we hear from someone from oz (or anywhere else) who has actually gone?

Even hearsay would be good at this point!

[Grogram]

Well I have just recieved my contract and it sucks.
It appears that those who accept this position are expected to fund the relocation, and this is supposed to be a secondment.

Basically they lend us about A$30K which is then recovered from our gross pay. Then we are taxed on this by the South African goverment.

Talking about tax, we are also required to pay provisional tax in 2 equal installments. These are due in August and February, basically upon arrival.

Well that is it, the whole thing.

No allowances

Self funded

Current pay

Living in a dangerous city far from the comforts and security at home.

It seems to me that a much better option is to self fund a holiday, knowing that I will go home in a few weeks.

They will need to up the ante a little if they will ever be able to entice anyone over there.

Over to you guys
Grogram

[ferris]

Has everyone gone cold on the idea? I thought some guys had already gone?

Was the actual amount of tax you will have to pay clearly mentioned?

[BAKELA]

Dear Niknak, With due respect to their fellow nationals, who else but Kenyans and Ury's would want to work in S.A. ? Somebody must have rattled your cage badly, very badly, in your earlier 'time their' (sic) in SA. Whatever happened, there is no need to attack the country's citizens and foreigners working there the way you are doing. Did you not make the grade and sour grapes filters through here is what I ask? The economy is going down the toilet and has been for years, it's one of the most dangerous places in the world to live and work, and the whole ATC system is on the verge of going belly up. Now how do you explain the ZAR's performance? Best performing currency...If it was that dangerous, how do you explain, inter alia, the WSSD and the cricket world cup and the WEF recently. You don't seem to be from around here at present, so, if you don't play the game, don't shout the odds about service levels of ATC in this country. Makes Zimbabwae sound positively attractive This is absolute confirmation that whatever you reside in or on is as far removed from reality as the inflation rate in Zimbabwe is from zero. Now take your matchbox Mini Minor and go paint it yellow with purple spots. :*

Bakela

[Short Approach?]

;) naaajs! :ouch:

[Justin Time]

Grogram,

Let me just start by saying that I am a little surprised that you sound surprised by ASA's pitiful offer. They have historically demonstrated time and time again that they are very short sighted on their grand plans (both regarding staffing and overall project costs) and they also try to get away with what always looks like the cheapest method but ends up costing them the most in the long run.

They really need to go out and see how genuine international companies move their staff all over the world. Then "world's best practise " may indeed apply to some part of ASA's operation.

Paying peanuts will always get the right amount of monkeys

[126,7]

Its friday all over again......... Have you had any news yet???:confused:

[Short Approach?]

Seems we're sending 10 atcos (mix twr/app - acc) Contract to be signed Monday/Tuesday.

So far no info as to where i RSA we will be working (most likely Jo-burg)

A few starting August 4th. and the rest following September 1st.

[Late Landing]

All gone quiet.... What's happened??

[126,7]

All gone quiet....

Probably due lack of interest.:E

[TrafficTraffic]

In this very forum - every day (hour!) is somebody posting from NATS.....how bad morale is, Low pay, management are a@#$!^#$, nobody loves us......


Here is you opportunity boys and girls, from Swannick to South Africa.

[126,7]

How about someone enlightening us as to the Danish exodus from SA.
Heard that from the original eleven that started work 2 months ago, only seven are left.
What is the problem? Some are concerned about safety and others about money, saying that nearly half their salary was going toward rent! How big is the money problem? The contract guys are getting half a suitcase more than the locals are!
Or is it something else?
:confused:

[bigmanatc]

Yes...this could be interesting....:cool:

[makeapullup]

been so quiet here lately. whats news.

[porra]

I was a SAAF controller. ATNS weren't accepting SAAF applications then, so I moved to Europe and joined Eurocontrol.

Salary seems to be the main theme throughout this thread. I tell all you ATNS boys, not a day passes that I don't fantasize about home...braaivleis and Castle in the company of friendly South African people... Easy for me to say "money doesn't matter" working at over paid Eurocontrol I guess - fact is though that a lot money spent by most of my colleagues is on holidays to amazing countries such as ours - they all want to get away from where they live 'cos there's nothing here, except long faces and polluted, cold air!

Honestly, what keeps me going are my plans of returning in about 3 years(if ATNS will have me).

The grass ISN'T greener!!