Buying a used SE. Ops! A very used SE...

[hamil]

Hello everyone, this is my first post and would like to get opinions from some experts, airplane owners, aircraft dealers, etc...
Tell me folks, would it be a good deal to buy a high-time 81’Archer, previously used as a trainer and rental airplane, but now has zero-hour engine and airframe smoh, ndh, and its price is well lower than a similar, but low total time?
What are the tricky and risky?
Thanks.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Many people have had good buys like that, so long as maintenance has all been done to the standards it should. There are risks of snags, particularly issues like internal corrosion.

I'd suggest paying a good LAME for a day or so of their time to go over it with a fine-toothed-comb and give you an honest report of the state of it. If it really is a good one, they'll be able to tell you. Similarly, if it's a well camouflaged bag of nails, they should be able to tell you that as well.

G

[Flyboy-F33]

Sound advice from Ghengis, bit I would add: One mans zero timed engine is another mans collection of horrors. So check if it is really a zero timed engine, and not a unofficial re-build.

You cant have the airframe zero timed (unless its new) so the airframe will have whatever hours it says in the log-book.

The big thing to watch out for with a high time aircraft is instruments and avionics which if havn't been replaced recently, could well end up costing as much as the rest of the plane, but being as its 1981 may not be too bad. Pay particular attention to all the gyro's as they may be knackered.

Good luck

GG

[tacpot]

A very recently overhauled (or even zero-timed) engine has no operational history for you to judge it's soundness from. Be very careful about purchasing an aircraft with such an engine without a warrany from the seller. If the engine turns out to have a problem the teardown to investigate it could cost nearly as much as the overhaul. Basically you want them to agree to contribute a proportion of the cost of any rebuild required in the first (say) 100 hours of operation. (Ideally 100% of the costs, but no-one is going to agree to that!)

Much better to buy an engine with 100+ hours on it. That way you can see it the engine has been run in correctly - e.g. has the oil consumption stabailised at the correct figure and are the Ts &Ps as expected.

Running the engine in will need a continous high-power setting and will preclude much of any conversion training you need on the aircraft, so I would advise you to only buy if you are current on that type (AND your insurer agrees you are current).

[Dufwer]

Would an LAME (I presume that's an engineer) be able to tell if the nose wheel has been landed on too often for it's own good? As the aircraft you are talking about use to be a trainer that would be a major concern of mine, after the new engine, as tacpot pointer out, and any corrosion. As a newly qualified PPL the abuse that trainers are sometimes put through is still fresh in my mind :rolleyes:

D

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Hamil

Only the engine manufacturer can zero time an engine. Nobody else!

Others can overhaul an engine which gives you the full TBO.

In reality the pleasure you will get out of an engine is related to who did it and a factor luck.

The value of a used aircraft is:

Hours left to TBO * overhaul cost per hour (this is overhaulcost/tbo time)

Add:

Avionics

Add/subtract internal and external condition

Add:

Sellability

Subtract:

Damage history

Add:

Few peanuts for airframe

And there you have it.

There are very few bargains to be had. Cheap aircraft are usually not the bargains they seem. Few people underprice their machines.

Have fun.

FD

[WorkingHard]

FD - Is it correct to say that only a manufacturer can zero time an engine. It was always my belief (and I am sure my fellow aviators out there with better knowledge will correct me) that a number of UK engineering shops were fully authorised by the CAA to zero time engines?

[hamil]

Buddies,
I’ve been flying for a long time but this area - airplane trades - is really new for me.
So, thank you very much for your replies…
:ok:
Hamilton

[BEagle]

I once bought a used Warrior with a zero time engine - but one thing I insisted upon was that the vendor's maintenance organisation did the annual before I bought it!

Hence they had to repair the heavy landing damage to a lower wing skin........

The engine was fine and it flew very nicely, but as the weeks went by, we found:

An unauthorised repair to the pitot static system which was causing the ASI to over read significantly.

The avionics had been installed by a chimpanzee - not even an amateur car stereo fitter could have done such a poor job. So we called in an expert to check the avionics thoroughly.

Electrical arcing scorch marks on the back of one avionic box.

Then I spent £5k+ on a re-spray, and it least it looked nice!

Then another £2K on re-installing the avionics plus changing the GPS.

Then another £6K+ to standardise the avionics and re-fit them to FM-immune standard....

Now all it needs is a little interior re-trimming and it'll be very nice indeed!!

So I would suggest that you have an aircraft and financial survey done before you even bother to kick the tyres!

[High Wing Drifter]

Is it a reasonable bet that an ex-flying school aircraft (or anly aircraft with a PT CoA) will be maintained only by licensed engineers? Although such a specimen many look 'tired' it should be structurally, instrumentally and avionically sound?

[LowNSlow]

HWD there is very little difference in the frequency of inspections between Private & Public CofA's at this level. An aircraft being maintained to either category by an engineer worth his salt should be up to snuff. Any deferrals (eg control cables showing signs of wear but not requiring changing until the CofA) should be noted in the worksheets that should be available from the maintenance organisation's records. If the owner won't arrange access to these, walk away.

As mentioned previously, there are zero timed engines and zero timed engines. An engine re-built by a reputable company should be as good as one done by Lycoming or Continental. An engine rebuilt by Joe the friendly engineer may or may not be as good.....

Even if the current owner realises that the gyro instruments are about to die and the radios are ancient, he/she is unlikely to get away with palming them off on the engineer you employ to check the aircraft over. Another quick check is to listen for a rumble from the gyro instruments as they wind down after the test flight.

I've shared BEagle's experience with avionics. Good X-rated engineers are as rare as hen's teeth.

A pre-purchase inspection by an engineer with experience of type is an absolute must as is a test flight. I once had my Aerobat inspected by a chap who had only worked on Cherokees and Warriors for the previous 20 years. He told me I needed the tail rebuilt and I had to change the flap rollers and tracks. All complete tosh and purely down to his inexperience on type. Nearly cost me 3 grand for nothing. He even suggested the aircraft was unasfe to fly which was proven wrong by an engineer experienced on Cessnas and Aerobats in particular. Moral of the story: Pick your engineer carefully!!!!

[High Wing Drifter]

Cheers for the explanation Low'N'Slow. Informative and much appreciated.