Handovers

[khasabman]

Often the controller will tell you to call the next frequency with radar heading or cleared flight level. I had always assumed that this was in order to shorten the time on the air giving normal handover details.
However everytime I change freq giving callsign and the requested hdg/cleared level I am asked for all the missing details. This in effect increases the time spent on handover rather than minimising it.
Am I missing something here, am I in fact being asked to ensure that that particular piece of information is passed on or am I being told that it is the only information I should give on handover.
In passing keep up the good work lads I wouldn't do your job for any money.

[StillDark&Hungry]

K

I'm sure people following will add MATS & ICAO references stating what information should be passed on first contact but, from a purely practical level:

We write on paper strips! If I've got 10+ aircraft on freq there is no way I can remember which are on radar headings, what those headings are and, which are on direct routings etc. so I need to write it down. So most controllers will ask you to pass that information on on transfer to save us asking!

As I'm sure you're aware, all aircraft must be coordinated from one sector to the next for the entire flight. In some cases this coordination takes on the form of a "Standing Agreement" ie. All London TMA arrivals will be descending to FL270.
The transfer of such an aircraft can take place once they are clear of any conflicting traffic, but may still be at cruising level, although cleared to descend - So on first contact I need to know you have been given the correct instruction and not, for example, taken somebody elses call to change frequency in error (and possibly still in conflict!)

As I've already said I'm sure the "book boffins" will be here shortly to list all, but on first contact I like to hear;

My callsign,
Your callsign,
Your current level,
Your cleared level and restriction,
Radar heading or cleared fix,
Speed restriction. etc

And basically anything which I can't get thru long range telepathy!

[Findo]

khasabman What you are doing is shortening the handover process by relaying some vital information to the next controller in addition to your normal information on first call. It saves me making a phone call thus distracting me and the next controller. Life is a lot simpler and sectors run with more traffic if you don't have to keep phoning the next sector.

StillDark&Hungry Yes traffic must be co-ordinated between sectors but not the way you have to do it at LACC. The rest of the world runs on a nice system of passive co-ordination which means we do not always have to have 2 ATCOs on sector and using up squillions of kilobytes of computing power telling the next sector what they already know !! ;)

[Cross Check]

Hej Tummy rumbling in the dark ;) that's nice to know ... does the same go for everyone else in the room?

Just out of curiosity, do you prefer present level 1st then cleared level 2nd or vice versa? I've been told by a few ATCO's over the years to start with cleared level coz it gives you time to find the strip and data tag before you hear the passing level to cross check with the displayed Mode C alt.

And you shouldn't be hungry ;) every ATC sector I've ever visited has had a communal candy bar box so full of lollies, etc a diabetic would pass out just looking at it :}

[Jerricho]

*Said with mirth in his voice*

Not sure about other Airports in UK, but Heathrow ATIS states at the end to include aircraft type and information received on initial contact, as well as the standard FL assignment and routing details. 80% of the time guys get it right, but if it's not provided on first contact with the Intermediate Director, then we have to get it.

The funny thing is then on hand-over to Final Director, aircraft are instructed to "Contact using callsign only". Gotta say, there are sure some funny interpretations of callsign only. Kinda hard not to miss a base leg turn when the dude gives you more information than provided with his first call to Int (and the name of his cat). Not moaning, I just find it funny, 'tis all.

[ATCbabe]

every ATC sector I've ever visited has had a communal candy bar box


I definately work at the wrong unit!!!!!;)

[Hippy]

Crickey, you guys can waffle! :yuk:

Just in case Khasabman or anyone else is still confused:

a) If told "Report your heading/speed/etc.. to whoever on 123.45", add those details to your normal check-in.

b) If told "Callsign only to whoever on 123.45", then check-in with callsign only, forget the normal stuff.

Hope that is clear. And guys, if we get a serious/safety related question in here from the flight deck, let's stick to a concise reply, eh? ;)

Hippy.

[Cross Check]

... and spoil all the fun and idle gossip? That wouldn't be in the spirit of the forum :\ :sad: :rolleyes: :p

... and I'd have to start thinking then :eek:

[ferris]

Personally, sometimes we see a conflict developing, and tee-up the solution ahead of time (to use available free time) eg. "(calling next sector) these two will be a dead heat at ......, I'll parallel them on headings". Reply: "OK".
The actual headings don't matter, but the next guy still needs to know what they are. So rather than ring him back, the a/c are transferred with "contact ............., and report heading". So all or any normal first contact info will be required, plus the heading. The next guy is not a dill, he can see that you are indeed paralleling, just needs to jot down the heading in case he needs to change it.

Bit long winded, but that can be one reason. Another can be if you simply haven't had time to co-ord something that you should have done- something important to the next sector, but not critical eg. speed control. I have slowed you down, I am flat out, can't tell the next guy, so I say "contact ......, report your speed" So rather than the next guy eventually figuring out you are going slower than you should, or seeing the same thing as me and telling you to slow down (which you are already doing), he hears you report a speed and can agree or change the plan as required. This sort of thing is not in the books, but is the real world.

[PPRuNe Radar]

This sort of thing is not in the books, but is the real world.

It's in our books ;)

[khasabman]

Thanks all, much clearer now:ok:

[FWA NATCA]

khasabman,

In the US when you are climbing or descending, and you are switched to another frequency you are expected to call on with your full call sign, altitude that you are leaving and your assigned altitude, if you are on an assigned vector you include that information too.

The reason you call on with the altitude that you are leaving is so that we can validate your Mode C.

Our rules here require me to verbally coordinate an aircraft that is climbing, descending through my altitudes, or on a vector with the next controller unless the procedure is contained within a letter of agreement.

Mike