65K Plus for an ATPL?

[Murray_NN]

Original post deleted because of clarification from Paul Hickley (OATS) about this new course.

I hope OATS are successful with this course as they have been before.

OATS have a course designed for everyone's pocket size.

So if you are rich there is the Partner course, if you cant afford the partner then there is the Full time Ab-Initio, and if you still cant afford that then there is the modular.

Thank you very much for your clarification PH.

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[window-seat]

Plenty of others too choose from! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Murray_NN]

BOW5
The full ATPL programme is still there and at same cost as you were quoted.

But this is a new programme and costs 65K without accomodation and food.

I think the original programme is still expensive let alone this new airline partner programme.

Good luck to you if you can afford it!

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[BIG BLACK RAT]

65K !!!!!

What on earth do you get for that then ???

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Murray_NN]

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[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well it just baffles me where people get the money from. But they do and OATS is pretty full...

!

WWW

[Token Bird]

What confuses me is - Oxford can't guarantee you a job with an airline even if you sign up for the partner scheme surely. If not then all they are offering is a guarantee of an interview (or several) with airlines. Does this mean that they now no longer give any help at all to people on the basic £54,000 package to find a job afterwards? If so then basically is this scheme just a way to charge an extra £11,000 simply for a guaranteed interview? Surely there is a limit to how far OATS will go.

I've just checked OATS website and the basic £54,000 package claims that the graduates will be 'fully airline ready', however the £65,000 package, in addition to claiming to set up interviews 'for suitable students', claims to 'train students to higher levels', claiming they will be 'far more airline prepared than other pilots'. How can they get more highly trained than 'fully airline ready'? Exactly what additional training does it entail - there are no details?

TB

Apologies for the overuse of the word 'claim' and derivatives

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]

[Cumulus Granitus]

Now if my memory serves me correctly, back in 1997 BAe Systems Prestwick set up a similar scheme called PASS. Partnership Airline Sponsorship Scheme (or something like). However, their approach was to recruit a pool of suitable candidates and various airlines would pick & choose from this pool, and offer a part sponsorship. After the Morrisby tests & GAPAN testing (totalling £500) I was one of the lucky 30 to beat off a 1000 initial applications. Brilliant!... ...Not quite. I think AIH took on 4 or 5, and that was it. We never heard from BAe again - change of management etc but it seemed the 'airlines' weren’t really interested in recruiting back then.

Although I didn't end up with a job, it certainly built my confidence up (quite young then) and I still believe it was worth every penny.

Back to my main point, similar things have been done before - didn't really work, cost me only £500 to tell me I was suitable for Airline work. As it's already been stated, there's still no 100% guarantee of a job - not be even an interview and that is one costly exercise. On the other hand someone's going to get a job and it could be you...

...best of luck to all who go for it & happy flying

CFIT

[bow5]

MURRAY, we were told at the seminar in August that the partnership programme was now the ATPL and cost 54k. I got the impression that was why the cost had risen from 48k. Now they say its 65k for the partnership programme.

This drives me up the wall!! If you are not guarenteed a job, even on the partnership programme, then what the hell chance has anyone got who is on the normal ATPL course? Surely, if the ATPL course isn't sufficient for people to gain employment then everyone should be doing the partnership programme.

What makes it worse is that at this seminar someone asked a question about aptitude testing and recieved a reply along the lines of "we don't think aptitude tests are relevant. We like to see people who have failed the aptitude tests but are still determined". Everyone knows that is rubbish and that aptitude tests are very important. AND WHAT HAPPENS?! Suprise suprise, people who are attempt to go on the partnership programme are aptitude tested!!

There is too much inconsistancy in the information they give out. More to the point, if I get one more school/airline saying that early 20's is the best time to train i'll scream. How on earth do schools expect people who have spent three years at uni and graduated at 21-22 to find 65k to then train as an airline pilot. According to the OATS website, the HSBC will only give proff development loans up to 30k. That leaves 35k to find. Who are they kidding? :rolleyes:

[VFE]

HSBC do lend well over the £30k mark in their PSL. I know a guy who borrowed over £60k. Takes guts and determination though.

VFE.

[Paul Hickley]

I work at Oxford Aviation, so I have an interest to declare. I also know that Scroggs and WWW have a firm policy on no use of pprune for advertising - which I
understand and respect. However, there are so many half-understood ideas on this
thread that I hope that the following will be seen as a simple statement of the facts
and a correction to misapprehensions, not as hyping the product. If you’re
badmouthing us, we ought to have the right to reply. May I also say that I’m writing
as a private individual, not a management-approved mouthpiece?

We are talking about 2 different things here. One is the standard course - about
£54K - which we run at present. This includes both airline-sponsored and self-
sponsored, and we already try to help the self-sponsored by advice on CVs, extra-
curicular lectures from airline recruiters, and - if any of our client airlines are short of sponsored recruits - by actually recommending suitable self-sponsored students
towards the end of the course, when we have had time to see how they have
actually performed.

This new Partnership Programme is different. There will be a selection procedure.
We expect (we can’t guarantee, but we expect) to be able to place EVERY
Partnership student with an airline. We cannot afford to take on people who are not
likely to be at, ot very near to, the standard of airline sponsored students. Otherwide
we would be taking their money under false pretences.

These selected candidates will then be expected to perform to a high standard on
the course - about 85% on every progress test, internal exam, and JAA exam. If
you’re not hacking it, you switch to the normal course (at a lower price).

It’s much more than just a guarantee of an interview. We write very comprehensive
reports on you at Oxford, both on the ground and in the air. They are usually 3-5
pages long and are similar to a military Annual Report. We make these available
(with your consent) to the Partnership airlines. We expect most of the Partnership
students to havbe a firm offer of a job well before the end of the course. We expect
everyone who makes the grade to have a job at the end of it. We also expect that
many of the airlines will pay part sponsorship, once they have offered a firm place.
In that case, your course might end up costing you about £30 - 35 K - your career
development loan. I use the word ‘expect’ because we can’t guarantee it yet. We
will have to wait and see how it all ackles down. In the meantime, this course is not
for everybody - only the best. It also includes simulator and airline orientation. - to
save the airlines time.

Airlines are short of pilots, but they won’t recruit just anybody. The knowledge that
there was a guaranteed standard of candidate, a full report on his perfromance, and
a simulator-trained candidate would take so much doubt away from them and would
save them so much time and expense in recruiting.

Paul Hickley

[Tarmach]

You can't blame Oxford, after all they are in it to make money!

Rather its the mugs that go along with this and pay their 65K + living expenses to be on this course!

One would hope there are plenty of interviews after spending this kind of money, but hey i'm sure the Oxford people probably have some sort of 'get-out clause'! And further to this it’s the airlines choice at the end of the day not OATS on who decides whether they take you on or not!

Really what are people thinking about when they spend 65K, when they can get the same licenses for a lot less!

While there are mugs out there that will pay for such courses and you only need to look at OATs and see, the training schools will keep on doing it!

Its rather like these expensive trainers and sports wear etc. The only reason why they are so expensive is that they know people will pay for them! Albeit there is also an elitist attitude to wearing such as Rockport boots or going to OATs, but you get the general impression!

Really the wannabes themselves are spoiling it for themselves with there easy to please- pay for everything attitude. I realise its a hard world out there to find jobs but if everyone stopped at the same point in their training everyone would be much better off! It would then be more up to the airlines to bridge the gap rather than taking on wannabes who have their own 737 type rating etc.

Airlines would have to rely more heavily on personal qualitites (I know they do already) rather than selecting a pool of candidates who have just spent 80K on a new spanking course and a type rating and then selecting those candidates on personal qualities!

If BA ever wants to boost its profits I'm sure people out there would pay 150K to go on their trainee pilot scheme with job at end! It would prove to be a nice little earner for them me thinks!! :) :)

[bow5]

Paul,

Thanks for your reply to this. Don't get me wrong, when I visited the seminar I was very impressed and had pretty much made my mind up to train at OATS. Although it is more expensive than other schools I thought the extra training, sim time + the brand name on my CV would be cery beneficial (aren't I a sucker for a marketing ploy! ) ;) . As i'm sure you can understand, everyone wants the best possible chance of getting a job at the end of their training and it seems to me that now at OATS it means trying to get onto the partnership programme. What worries me, apart from the extra 11k + living costs, is that if I or any one else is not suitable for the partnership programme then surely the airlines involved in the scheme will be looking at graduates of the ATPL course as second class. If they are part of the scheme then it makes sense they will take pretty much only graduates of the partnership scheme. I'm sure in some cases (which it could will be in mine) it is not lack of aptitude or qualifications but the inability to raise the 70k + needed to get on the scheme, especially at the age of 22.

I personally think this scheme is something that has been a long time coming for pilot training and OATS should be applauded for making it happen. What I would like to know, that isn't forthcoming on your website, is the exact details of the HSBC partnership (something mentioned but in no way made clear at the seminar), how much can be borrowed and the age at which you envisage the average person will start this course, because as a 22 year old graduate, my bank account reads a long long way short of 70k.
;)

Cheers.

[SuperTed]

Spot the mug! Theres one born every minute!!

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: SuperTed ]

[bow5]

Cheers for the info Rich.

I'll give the bank a call but do you know if, for instance, you could borrow 30k at 2% then a further 25-30k at a higher interest rate, or is the 30k the limit?

There was a post further up this thread saying the HSBC have loaned more than 60k to people. The interest on that does not even bear thinking about.

[Murray_NN]

-

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[Token Bird]

You would have thought that something like this would get less elitist over time, not more elitist,

TB

[Rob 747]

What 75k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No thanks i'd rather have:

1 x Small Yacht
1 x 100% share in a pa 28 warrior
1 x 3 bedroom house in Lake district
1 x 2 bedroom apt in manchester city centre
2 x TVR Chimeras
1 x Porsche 911
1250 Jumpseat rides to barcelona with EZY jet
75 Weeks in Monaco
75 Tecra 8000 Laptops
7,500,000 1 Penny chews!
2 x Multiflights Ab Initio ATPL course!
3 x SFT's Ab Initio course!

:D :D :D :D :D

In fact ive changed my mind!!

Write the price on a glossy piece of paper with a big 737 next to it, and ill give you the 75K!!!!!! :eek:
:D :D


Edited coz i can't spell or use comma's!!!!

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Rob 747 ]

[Polar_stereographic]

Hmmm, where have I heard that before.

Ann Robinson, where are you as there's another weakest link for you!!

PS

[dakersg]

The way the £65K course is being marketed, there definitely seems to be a concerning trend here.

i.e. "the more money you pay, the more likely you are to get a job at the end". I would have thought that it should be "the better qualified pilot you are, the more likely you are to get a job".

I also seem to remember it being said by OATS that on some occasions, exceptional students on the standard ATPL course may well be recommended to airlines for sponsorship or other benefit later on in the course. Does the introduction of the partnership course now mean that if you are exceptional, you still won't get recommended unless you put forward the extra dosh.

It just doesn't sound right to me!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And an FAA license isn't worth the paper its not printed on in the EU which is where we all want to work. Not that we have the right to work in the US of course. Slight snag there.

Also in the US ones first job is going to be on cheque running at night in a Bandit and after ten years you make it to a jet airline and a big comfy union agreement. In the UK you *can* walk straight into that jet job. Big difference in investment/reward my friend and that often negates the higher license cost under JAA...

If you've got a ton of cash and some aptitude then I guess OATS new scheme is for you - it'll give you an element of queue jumping at the very least.

However, to take a recent graduate of Jerez as an example (Hi Rob) who was one of the stronger graduates in his class. The school gives him a nice recommendation as such and after a month or two he gets Britannia 757/767 at Manchester. All for the sum of £45k plus beer money and sun tan lotion.

CABAIR and SFT can issue recommendation that might get you ahead in the queue for an interview. The £20k+ shortfall would more than cover some extra sim time if that what you wanted prior to a sim assessment with an airline. Plus an FI rating.

But if you have the money then why not?

I don't see anything wrong with OATS move. BAE are also moving to having ALL applicants to the college pass an aptitude assessment to get in. Its the way the world is moving.

Flying trainig is actually getting cheaper as well. BAe charged £13k more in 1991 than they do now for an ATPL course...

Good luck one and all,

WWW

[Cumulus Granitus]

Thanks Mormoner, for your very constructive comments there. This was an interesting debate, until your poor spelling, grammar and attitude cast a black cloud over this thread. This maybe your first post, but I doubt it, but there is no need for a full-blown attack on OATS or anyone for that matter. It’s also very interesting you’re a BA pilot with an F.A.A Licence. So you’re an expert on all the British Flight Training Schools then?

[scroggs]

Looks like Ronchonner is back, and in his usual form. Ignore him people, he will go away if he upsets us! Just wait for the tattooed yellow privates!

[mormoner]

Post deleted. This kind of abusive rubbish will not be tolerated on Pprune. Here we go again, Ronch. Bye Bye.
Scroggs
XXXX

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

[QUERY]

A fool and his money are easily parted.... an old topic but with a new twist from OATS.

The marketing problem is product differentiation. Because the licence you obtain is the same, wherever you train, what might make you choose (and pay more at) A rather than B, C, or, in this case, O ?

Solutions seem to be:
Prospect of job- OATS are not the only culprits. No further comment other than you'll have to decide whether or not it's worth the extra, or anything, with no guarantee.
Superior student- This is the notion that you/their training are better, if you go there/pay more, which does raise the question of poorer commitment and attitude to students who are paying less. The alleged different treatment of sponsored and 'self-sponsored' students, sucking-up to airlines etc. are old complaints about many places.

In the case of OATS, isn't the fact that someone is paying significantly more, or less, than others a classic motive for better, or worse, treatment? If you were paying more, wouldn't you expect and insist on better? I would so you were warned !

It seems to me that OATS are simply marketing and attempting to increase profitability by means of another variant of that old pilot training trick -the more you pay the more likely you are to pass and, in this case, get a job. That is their business. Just as competent people do not need to spend over £7K for a PPL, you needn't waste over £70k on an ATPL with, merely, the prospect of a job. However, some people wouldn't pass either, even if they spent £700k !

A general observation is that the formerly cosy professional training market has become competitive and cut-throat and it seems that the old firms can't, or don't wish to, compete on price. They may still offer 'ordinary' courses, although even those are relatively expensive, but it seems that OATS now target those who could and might pay very much more than most. Whether any wery wich Wannabe who trains at OATS is sensible or stupid, in every sense, is a matter of opinion and individual ability.

BTW, am I the only one who finds the term 'self-sponsored' an insulting and laughable description of customers?

P.S. This is an interesting and useful topic for many, so don't be diverted by Moroner or the stooges.

[bow5]

I, like Rich Tea, resent being called an ignorant idiot by someone who struggles to command the English language, let alone anything else. :mad:

I have spent a lot of time and effort looking at the various options available for ATPL training and the fact is that some schools are better than others. Period. OATS is certainly, in my opinion, one of the better ones - but there are others out there.

People in this post have been saying that you can go elsewhere and get the same licences for a lot cheaper. Fair enough, but in the majority of cases, what you are getting is the licence and nothing more. The same applies to FAA licences - as WWW says, they are not worth the paper they are written on in the EU. The reason OATS' ATPL course is more expensive is because you go on and above the minimum requirements (The MCC course alone is 20hrs in a new 737 sim). That, in my book, equates to a better chance of getting a job. Couple this with the right personal qualities and as far as I can see, you're in with a chance.

If you know anything about business, you will know that every FTO is there first and foremost to make money. That is the nature of the business. Without it they go bust, as recent events have sadly proved. What I believe I should be looking for in an FTO is, therefore, one which has a sound financial base (claim's that OATS are nearly bankrupt are completely without basis and untrue) but one that couples this with good results and job prospects.

No one here who is thinking of going to OATS has stated that it is brilliant and everywhere else is rubbish. That is a ridiculous suggestion. When I found this partnership scheme cost 65k I nearly fell off this chair. Like all of the schools, it has its good and bad points and it is upto the individual to find what is best for them. If that is OATS then they are not a mug for paying the money, because if they can afford it, to me it looks worth it.

As for myself, I will continue to look until I decide which is the best one for me.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: bow5 ]

[Murray_NN]

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[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[bow5]

Murray, you've misunderstood me. Check my early replies, I agree with you. I just don't like being called a fool because i'm thinking of attending a training school that others deem 'to be not right for them therefore not right for anyone'. On the face of it, 65k seems ridiculous and way out of my grasp but there does seem to be more to it than that.

54k for the now 'basic' ATPL course is way in excess of a lot of other schools. However, as far as that particular course as a standalone was concerned, I was impressed with it and with a bit of creative accounting etc. I could have just about stretched to it.

However, paying a full 65k is too much. What gripes even more is that they expect you to pay accomodation on top of that! What we must bare in mind, however, is that the chap from OATS said it will most likely be run as a part sponsorship with the participating airlines, and thus the cost to the student would be more like 30-35k. We'll wait and see on that one.

If this is not the case then 65k + living costs is beyond just about everyone. It certainly is for me. I definately do not have the inclination to part with that kind of money for a job, no matter how much I want to do it. It's totally ridiculous. I wouldn't mind as much if they could actually guarentee you anything, but they can't. An interview, great as it is, is not a job.

What I do know for certain though, is that if I go to Oxford now, I will not be doing the ATPL course because in my view, Oxford themselves have devalued it greatly by running it alongside the new scheme. The same goes for the modular course.

Like I've already said, I had pretty much made up my mind to go to Oxford for the integrated course if I wasn't successful in gaining sponsorship. This change in OATS policy has made me think again.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: bow5 ]

[Murray_NN]

-

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[window-seat]

My general feeling when visiting OATS as a potential self-funding student several months ago was one of a 'second rate citizen' amongst the vast numbers of Airline Cadets. If I were to sign up now, it would cost me another 6K to become a 'third rate' trainee..........er, no thanks Oxford!

I'll save a few grand and go elsewhere, where the sun shines, and I have no worries about finding money for a roof over my head, and food in my belly! :cool:

Why is everyone so desperate to go straight from a seneca into a 747? Chill out a little, after your ATPL's spend a few quid on a QFI ticket instead (not the most appealing job to some, myself included, but there are plenty of jobs out there), and get some real flying experience. :eek: Or go to the states and get some cheap Twin-Time. Perhapse most importantly, get to know people!

After all, how many University students graduate into a £60k per year job?....not many! Take it one step at a time and one day you will arrive. ;)

[VFE]

Sound advice from Window-Seat IMHO.

On the subject of HSBC loans:

I recieve, quite regularly, e-mails from folks wanting to know tips and info on getting a Professional Studies Loan. So to save replying to all and sundry I will put my views and experience down on this thread seeing as there is a big reference to PSLs on this topic.

You can borrow £60k+ from HSBC but you will need security (house is the most popular) and you will need a sound business plan and the 'right approach'. It is true that I do know of people who have borrowed in excess of £60k and yes the interest is quite alot! ;)
In order to apply for a PSL you should call your nearest branch telling them you would like to apply for a PSL and how much! Then ask for an interview with someone who is authorised to grant the loan.
Take your business plan and completed application form (available in most branches) and dress in smart business wear. If your parents are kind enough to offer security then take along one of them to inforce the commitment they are offering. This will help alot as the bank will see that you all mean business.
Set out your plan and make a big effort to get on with the manager seeing you. Common sense really.

If you are struggling to get security on a loan of Ab-initio proportions then you will struggle to get the loan full stop. Unless you have a degree and/ or an offer of an interview from an airline then I think you will be shown the door pretty quickly. I may be wrong but if you were a bank manager would you go for it? Perhaps not.

The business plan needs to include all the nessesary information including; Course cost, living expenses, travel expenses, what the course involves (bung in the brochure!), what you can *expect* to earn in that first job you're going to walk into straight after training and basically other usefull info (if you can find it) such as average pilot salaries, employment statistics and so on....

You can borrow alot on PSLs - just ask and see.

VFE.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: VFE ]

[Ja]

Pub and beer. Just flicked throught this thread. 65K?!?!!? 75K?!?!? Are you guys mad!!!? to consider parting with this kind of money to train for a job where you can earn enough money to pay tax!! ?? ...

If the 'only' way to get 'in' is this way the praise be! There will indeed be a pilot shortage! Any company offering a service is also a company that exists to make money. Normal stuff. To have gone under recently; competetive market perhaps; maybe the bigger (bank balance and a little cash injection ) has helped some survive JAA approval where others have ultimately failed,

Been to pub remember .. losing thread but £65k ???. If they are that good !? then pay by the day not all or even half or even quarter at once. If you are daft/rich enough to consider paying these kind of sums out ( enough to buy a row of houses in Mansfield!) cover your self and pay, in advance only for the next second of 'Quality Tuition'.

Even then ... 65 K are you mad? You are in it because you like flying ? ... buy plane instead

[knighty]

So, so strange....let me get this correct....for 54,000 you are 'ready' for the airlines and for 65,000 you are even 'MORE READY' for the airlines :rolleyes:
I heard a rumour that in a few months OATS is offering a course for 70,000 ....when you've completed that, your 'SUPER, EXTRA READY' fot the airlines!!
I think that course is offering a consultation on 'dress before the interview'
That's amazing :eek:
OATS really has got people where they want eh, paying 11,000.00 for an interview!
Yeah yeah yeah, I know, I hear you saying it already....if you had 65,000 you'd be there too.....
Dam right ;) I'd pay more...if I had it of course.
I say it doesn't matter how you get there, if it's gunna be, then it's gunna be :p

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: knighty ]

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: knighty ]

[Token Bird]

Even if I had £65,000, which I don't, I would rather pay for an integrated course at another school, preferably one in the sun with accommodation included, or I'd pay £35,000 for modular plus FI(R) rating and, even if I couldn't get a job for a while, I'd still have £30,000 which would last me a while in living expenses.

Being unemployed for a while would damage my pride less than giving in and paying way over the odds for an ATPL at OATS. 2 reasons:

1. I do not want to swell OATS' coffers with even a penny of my money (they did manage to squeeze a bit out of me for the British Midland selection procedure - but that's it!)

2. If I did succumb, I'd feel like I was perpetuating the problem for future wannabes. People have repetitively said that airlines will not pay anything for pilots as long as we are daft enough to pay for it ourselves. The same goes for OATS - if they keep putting up the price and we keep paying it, then it'll just get worse!

TB

[Paul Hickley]

Some of you have asked me to reply to points, so I am. Usual disclaimers - I am not trying to advertise the course, merely to reply to criticism. These are my own views and are not management approved; I am writing as a private individual, albeit one with knowledge of the company.

To answer bow5 and RichTea's point - Yes, I certainly think that the 4 airlines which have already signed up to the Partnership Programme (bmi British Midland, British European, KLM (UK), and Channel Express) will look no further for their ab-initio entrants.

Look at it from their point of view. For any business, recruiting anyone, whether a pilot or someone to clean the loos, is a very iffy procedure. It costs money to place adverts, vet CVs, compile short lists, arrange interviews, set up psychmetric testing, hold a 3-day course, etc. Even then, you don't know what you're getting until you've actually seen them in employment for a while. Some people can put on quite a good act for a few days. Even after all this, once you've made the best possible choice from the information available to you at the time, not all the sponsored students hack it. A small proportion of our airline-sponsored students have their sponsorship withdrawn for not achieving the required standard. It's not that they are not achieving the standard to become a pilot - they all get licences - it's that they are not achieving the standard required to be a BA, Aer Lingus, or bmi pilot. That's a higher standard -- right now!

Compare this with what the Partnership airlines will be getting under the new scheme. The students will be selected but selection won't be the airlines' resonsibilty (or expense). The students will have been on the course for some months before they are considered by the Partnership airlines. Any weaknesses will have already become apparent. The airlines will not have to bear the cost of sponsoring students not up to their high standards. There will be a comprehensive 5 page report on each student (everyone at Oxford gets this, not just the new course) which will cover all exam results, flying grades at all phases of the course, character sketches by several ground school and flying instructors and summaries by the CGI and the CFI - covering 6-9 months of actual performance. Not too much of an unknown quantity there!

If you were a Partnership airline, wouldn't you prefer that as an option? You'd far rather pay, say, £30K sponsorship per student once you knew that they were a good bet than £50K for what's basically a bit of a gamble at the start of the course.

This does not mean that it you do the standard ATPL course you won't get a job. Only 4 airlines are current Partnership Programme members. There are plenty of other airlines out there. We placed half a dozen recent graduates with Ryanair recently - by direct contact. We'll do that for anyone who we think worth recommending on the standard ATPL course.

As for the rest of you who keep whingeing about the "£75K" price, didn't you read my earlier posting? Pilots are supposed to be able to be able to pick out the salient points from a mass of information. Also, you should only need to tell a pilot something once. Good pilots stay level-headed, not heated with emotion, and they don't get drunk. It won't cost you £65K in fees if you don't get a job, because you'll have transferred to the standard ATPL course at a lower price. It'll cost you even less if you hack the course because we expect the Partnership airlines to sponsor you once they've taken you on. I shouldn't need to make this point again. If you can't take it in after being told twice, perhaps you're not very suitable pilot material.

Paul Hickley

[Si]

Hi,

Just wondered if someone can answer me this...if you were to do your PPL at a local school nearby and then build up your hours to the standard 150 ok, after this you would go to say OATS, complete the ground school there full time, and then complete the CPL/IR and MCC back to back but under modular prices once the ground school is finished. Would the airlines look at you any different? and would you be able to get recommendations from the school to various airlines??

:confused:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks for that Paul - I was preparing to do a bit of counterbalancing but there is no need now.

I can see the logic of the scheme. Could be devisive I imagine on the ground but then students would be best advised to think of their training AS a competition - albeit a friendly one.

I think the old style CTC airline placement scheme was a better deal but that seems to have died a death.

Personally I'd like to see all the airlines stop sponsoring altogether in their current form. Instead they could pick up student half way through their courses and sponsor them from that point. Much easier to select someone on the basis of a couple of months groundschool and the first 50hrs of flying done.

Then utilise the instructors to make the assessments...

The students would all be people who had made a commitment to aviation rather than just filled out a form they found in the careers office. The instructors would have their job role enhanced. The students would have better motivation to work hard - and SOME need that. The training risk for the airlines is reduced and everyones happy...

When I'm in charge of the CAA...

;)

WWW

[EGDR]

I fool and his money ... - seems to spring to mind .

[Token Bird]

Paul,

No need to get shirty. Having read your initial response again, I can say that you didn't already tell us that those who didn't get jobs would be transferred to the standard ATPL.

What you did say was that those who weren't hacking it, that is, achieving at least 85% in flight tests and exams, would get dropped to the standard course. This is a different point altogether.

If you are now saying that those who don't get jobs will get £11K back, then fine, but you only said it once not twice.

As for the possibility of the airlines deciding to part-sponsor candidates when they are already on the course, this is still only a possibility, so there is a chance that a candidate will stay on the higher course, get a job but not be part-sponsored, hence will still end up with a £65K + food + lodgings -sized loan to pay off.

Judging by the starting salaries of most airlines, this means a large chunk of money to come out of their salaries each month, so you can understand why they are budgeting on the worst case scenario rather than assuming that the actual cost will be less due to getting part-sponsored, or dropped to the standard course.

TB

[neil767]

You can pay as much as you like for air training and go to any school however nor Oxford or any other school can guarantee a job. OATS are using the fact they are in (near) Oxford and commanding high prices due to this, similar to what universities there do with oversea students. I had a few lessons there and it's not particualry great, you have to wait for instructors due to over runs and the facilties are naff. People who get these massive loans are treading on thin ice, at the end of it all you might not get a job an be lumbered with a huge debt with interest mounting on it. Shop around and always have a backup plane. Not being negetive but several friends have gone down this road and not got there and been straddled with debt. I hope everyone success it what they because if you don't try you'll never suceed.

[Maverick 007]

As the Head of sales & Marketing at Oxford I have looked through this chain with Interest. I would like thank Paul for his timely comments and if anyone wants to email me for information (correct and official) I will be more than happy to answer them. One one technical point, all students who pass the Assessment, which is done independantly from Oxford, will be seen by ALL the Partner airlines before they actually start the course. This might have cost £275 for the priviledge, but you will know what you are capable of and what the airlines are wanting before you start.

[mormoner]

<deleted>

Mormoner - I can play this game all day long matey.

Now either play nicely or I'll ban you.

Warmest regards,


Wee Weasley Welshman

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

[Skin Friction]

Richard

I can see why this scheme might be attractive to the airlines, but I'm dubious about the prospect of 'partners' retrospectively sponsoring students to the tune of 30K.

A student who's embarked on a self-sponsored integrated course has surely already proved that they have access to the funds necessary to obtain the precious tickets. They've also proved that they're desperate for a flying job. Given both these factors, why would a chief pilot feel the need to part with 30k to get that student into his/her airline? Sure the student might have a better chance of employment thanks to the partnership program, but are you really expecting to be able to generate a competitive marketplace for self-sponsored students within OAT?

If it's possible then that's good news for everyone, but I think I'd be wanting some kind of guarantee for 65k

SF

[rolling circle]

I notice on another thread that an organisation offering 'airline preparation' is being slated because none of the staff have any airline experience. Perhaps the Head of Sales and Marketing would like to tell us how many of OAT's flight instructors have any airline experience (corporate flying in a twin piston doesn't count). Unless they've had a major recruiting drive in the last three months since I left, there's only a couple of FIs with any commercial aviation experience whatsoever, it's now all ex-service or ex-flying club - the perfect place to prepare one for the airlines I would have thought. Admittedly some of the STIs are ex-airline (BEA, BOAC, that sort of thing).

On an allied subject, I'd be a bit wary about the claims of a '737 simulator' - they ain't got one. What they have is a Frasca FNPT (Flight Navigation Procedure Trainer) configured as a glass cockpit 737, same as WMU with a similar (un)serviceability record by all accounts.

As to the 'partner' airlines looking no further for their ab-initio entrants - if you believe that then I have this car you might be interested in, nice little runner, one lady owner, only used it a weekends.

[Blackshirt]

Hmm...this Mormoner chap. Can volenteer to kick the **** out of him coz I've just returned from the pub and fancy hearing his FranoYanky squeals as true Brit fist hits his fat gob.

God Save the Queen.

edited due to Stella Artois enthusiam

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]

[Desk-pilot]

Question for the OATS guys - Will the offer from airlines to part sponsor a student during the course be subject to their usual age criteria? I only ask because it seems few airlines will (fully) sponsor anyone older than 28 - just wondering if the same applies here?

Desk-pilot

[pinguino]

as an italian I think I'm one of the few lucky EU citizen to be able to complete a CPL/IR+MCC+T/R on heavy jet for less than 70k euro and without having to comply with this JAA-hell, which is what I'm trying to do before jars will destroy aviation here too. About pilot shortage I think this is not true, airlines are not short of pilots, they are short of pilots willing to pay a load of money+accepting the risk not to get the job. I don't know why there are a lot of guys willing to pay 75k pound for a job (not granted). here in italy a f/o usually gets about 2500-3500 euros less 50% taxes and maybe even bonding. with 20k you can attend a private university and get a master degree and then get a 5000 euros x month job (yes I know we love flying).
so are we going to madness? alitalia started its own school asking 80k euros for ab-initio+mcc without type rating and without job, and they are full.
I can't understand why.
many airtaxi companies here do not have payed f/o they only have f/o who pay for flying.
an instructor of mine uses to say:"working as a pilot is for rich people but rich people are too clever to work as a pilot".
bye

[bow5]

Rolling Circle....OATS have, according to 'Pilot' magazine, just purchased a 737-400 sim at the princely sum of $4million.

Paul, thankyou for the response on some of the points raised. Your closing argument about people 'not being pilot material' becasue they had mis-read your post was rather childish though.

Like I said in one of my earlier threads, and as has become more apparent over this thread, there is obviously more to this than a student stumping up 65k for an ATPL course.

[RVR800]

If these airlines value quality applicants why do they select only the wealthy ?

£75K Bank Balance => Quality Applicant :(

They are sacrificing applicant quality for low training costs - which is contrary to the stated objectives above

[trouduc]

Oxford aviation, I need you bank account number for a transfer of 65K.I've decided that I want be an airline pilot.I don't want to go to the USA, they don't know to fly there and the training cost only 15K.
Disregard people posting here, they don't know what the are talking about.I'm sure you are the best school in the world.
sincerely,
a futur B777 pilot
:)

[Token Bird]

Quoting Paul Hickley:

"...you should only need to tell a pilot something once...If you can't take it in after being told twice, perhaps you're not very suitable pilot material"

Does anyone else think Ronchonner/Arnaud/Mormoner/Trouduc fits into this category?

WE DON'T HAVE GREEN CARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FAA LICENCE WORTH ****** ALL IN UK!!!!!!!

TB

[Nightflyer]

As a retired 767 Captain who came up the self-improver route in the 1970's, I would be extremely wary of parting with £65 for an ATPL course. I worked in Holland for a number of years and most of my young co-pilots came from wealthy families. It was almost impossible for anyone without large financial resources to break into the airlines other than being a KLM cadet. With the new JAR's coming into effect and no more self-improvers coming through the system, I hate to predict the future. It really is a jungle out there lads. I worked for 10 airlines that went bust. To take on such a high level of debt (and remember you have to repay your debt out of taxed income) in the present economic climate is just too risky. I would not contemplate a career in aviation today unless it is paid for by an airline sponsorship scheme or the military. Also, if you get a job with an airline, they will bond you up to the eyeballs. Would I do it all again...probably not. If you want to fly get a good job and hire a light aircraft..

[window-seat]

NIGHTFLYER, thanks for the encouragement! ;)

[liverbird]

where does a working class lad find nearly 70 grand. does any rich people out there want to lend me 30 grand. thats all i need. ill say it again. because it is easy, thats all i need. :(

[rolling circle]

Well here we are, some 30 hours later and no response from the great OAT Sales and Marketing. No surprises there then!

bow5 - Having paid Frasca $4m I'm sure that the marketing department of OAT would like to think that they have a simulator, but they don't. What they have is actually approved as a FNPT II (MCC), no better than the fixed base FTDs at LGU, AFT and 4 Forces. The words 'taken' 'for' and 'ride' spring to mind. Let's hear it for Rudi!!

[QUERY]

RJA, who said he is head of b..... at OATS, has posted no defence or description of their sales and marketing strategy but simply solicits questions- no doubt so that he can then work on any punters in private.
This topic contains no individual customer complaint, which might become a public pissing-match that OATS would wish to avoid.
So, apart from a promise that you will be seen by some airlines with no guarantee of anything, why do OATS say nothing about why their course is worth a small fortune?
Is the answer that there is nothing to say?

[Base leg]

Sales & Marketing at Oxford ;
Let's hope that you cross the t's and dot the i's before the CAA come to visit this week when they ask (and they will) why you have too few instructors (or is it too many students) resulting in some (modular) students flying 5 hours a month.
The students and instructors will only put up with your games for so long.
One would almost think you were on commission per student.

With just a little foresight, effective management, some credible leadership, (and the same superb instructors) you really could be the best.

If I had to do it all again I'd go elsewhere and do it in half the time. :(

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Base leg ]

[SuperTed]

As Stephen Fry said, 'Oxford is a right dump!' Enough said.

[Nightflyer]

It is not suprising that Oxford have no instructors. Why sweat your guts out for a CPL (costing £60K) and then end up instructing.! The self-improver route has always been the source of instructors that train new pilots. The CAA in its wisdom have stopped all that.A far more serious situation than the qualified pilot shortage is a shortage of flying instructors. Just you wait..you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Paul Hickley]

bow5 - Thanks for your sensible and appraising approach. However, I completely defend my remark about concentrating and thinking. I don't for a moment think that it was childish. This is a game for adults. The standards ARE high. It's not like PPL flying. If someone isn't up to it, they're in the wrong business. Become a hairdresser, a librarian, a market gardener, or whatever - something more suited to their talents. Not better. Not worse. I'm not judgemental. Just something more suited to that individual's talents. Good pilots CAN concentrate. They DO take things in first time. Part of the problem with many of the contributors to this thread is that they think that mere possession of a licence gives them a right to an easy living. Life isn't like that. You have to persuade an employer that you're good - not merely good, but better than the competition. You won't do that if you're a woolly thinker who needs to be told things twice. No, on balance, I think that it was a mature and well-considered remark. I try not to make any other kind.

Token bird - I'm not getting shirty. I just expect higher standards of debate and understanding from would-be pilots. (See previous paragraph). May I also correct a point? I did not say that those who don't get jobs will be transferred to the standard ATPL course and get £11K back. What I said was that I believed that the course would not actually cost £65K to any student. My reasons are as follows:- If you get offered a contract, you will be offered some sponsorship money from the time you are taken on. Because I believe that everyone who completes this course WILL get a job, the only people who don't get a job will be those who have been withdrawn from the Partnership course - in which case, it will have cost them less than £65K to complete their ATPL.

Neil767 - Prior to this course, I would have agreed with you that neither Oxford nor any other school could have guaranteed a job. But I believe that this course may be different because it will make any graduate too hot a property to pass over. This will not be particularly because of the instruction (though this will help), but because of the calibre of the students. Careful selection, 85% or better in every exam, good flying grade, full and detailed reports - this is BA, Aer Lingus, or bmi sponsored standard. They'll be snapped up. I agree, that's not a 100% guarantee - but it's a damned high probability.

To everyone - I now intend to withdraw from this particular thread. The arguments are becoming circular and repetitive and I don't think we are going to see much else that is new. I just hope that those readers appraising the information to be found here will note that when I (and many others not hostile to the idea) have posted, our contributions are cogent and backed up with reasons and arguments. Many of these points are then dismissed by knockers with a snide comment about Oxford, a gibe, or an accusation against my integrity, and (most importantly), no reasoned argument. A case in point is when I explained (in response to a question) why I thought that the Partnership airlines would look no further for their ab initio entrants. I gave a couple of paragraphs explanation why I thought this would be the case. Someone responded with a sneer about a used car. No attempt at fact, logic, or reason. It's not the only case - just one of many examples.

This isn't too much of a problem because I believe that any reader with intelligence and judgement will be perfectly capable of forming his own opinions. and it's only those who do have intelligence and judgement who are the right people to be the next generation of airline pilots.

Finally, whatever you or I think, however well argued, is mere speculation. The only proof of the pudding will be in about a year from now when the first 18 Partnership cadets graduate. If, as I believe, all 18 of them have a contract and part sponsorship, they will be the winners. The moaners, the whingers, the pessimists, the knockers will be what, in most cases, their postings on this site show them to be already - LOS....... No, I won't spell it out, it's too unkind. Work it out for yourselves.

See you again on another thread sometime.

All the best,

Paul Hickley

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]

[QUERY]

Goodbye but not thank you, Paul.
So, why did he and other OATS ignore my and other queries? If the cap fits?
Used-car was very appropriate...
You could get plenty for £65 but best not buy from the salesmen at OATS.

[Flypuppy]

Just a small question. Why should OATS succeed with this sort of scheme when AFT scrapped their similar scheme 6 months ago?

Wee Weasley Welshman is on record as saying that he didn't think that this sort of scheme was viable.
Whilst I wished this scheme the best of luck and everyone on it I never thought it would work unfortunately.
With schemes such as CTC's full bells and whistles FO training scheme struggling for interest in recent years on one side and airlines own sponsorships on the other side the middle ground targetted by AFT looking extremely tight to these eyes.

Never mind,

WWW


(extract from Atlantic pulls the Plug (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009467) )

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Flypuppy ]

[RVR800]

Nightflyer

Good Post

I agree - the instructor shortage is
beginning to bite

Hourly rates will have to improve to justify the extra training costs imposed by JAR

This is a chronic problem. Shortages in the
past have been resolved in periods of economic downturn - many employers are gambling on a recession to provide cheap flight crew at all levels

The trouble is .. It ISNT happening

In fact City analysts are predicting rapidly
rising share prices toward the end of 2001.

Then the fun starts..

Sunday Telegraph 020901

Details follow..

EXPERTS are predicting a stock-market rally in the coming months that could lead to the market rising by 21% by the end of the year.
The big City investment banks are united in predicting that the market will be higher by the end of December, despite its recent drubbing and a succession of profit warnings.
Last week, the London market took another battering when falls on Wall Street sent share prices tumbling. The FTSE 100 index of the biggest shares finished the week at 5,345 - near its three-year low.
Although experts are unwilling to say that the market has hit the bottom, most expect considerable progress before the year ends. Everything, however, depends on a recovery in America, which would help to propel the British market out of its current lows.
Steve Russell, a British equity strategist at HSBC, said: "We anticipate a market rally as we pass through the low point of the American cycle in September and October. The recent downturn in Britain's market is being driven more by negative sentiment in America than domestic woes."
HSBC expects the FTSE 100 to hit 6,500 by the end of the year - one of the more optimistic predictions.
An upturn in the American economy may, however, seem improbable in the wake of all the bad news that came out of Wall Street last week. On Wednesday the American government reported the slowest economic growth in eight years. Gross domestic product figures for the three months to June were revised down to 0.2% from 0.7%. Investors took this as a sign that a recovery was still a long way off.
But expectations are growing that the Federal Reserve's policy of aggressively cutting interest rates could start to have an impact on the American economy.
America's central bank has cut rates seven times in the past eight months - so far, to no effect. But historically, the benefits of lower interest rates have taken six to nine months to filter through to the economy.
Hasan Tevfik, equity strategist at Credit Suisse First Boston, predicts an end-of-year level of 6,000. He said: "The interest-rate cuts in America will start to feed through over the next few months. This will signal a turnround in the American economy and will boost the markets in Britain and Europe."
Private investors already in the market are advised to sit tight. Historically, some of the sharpest rises occur just after the market hits its low point, which even the finest minds in the country cannot predict with any accuracy.
Anna Bowes of Chase de Vere, an independent financial adviser, said: "There is no point trying to time the market by selling out and then buying back in when you think the time is right. The market is always full of surprises."
The bottom of the current downturn was initially called back in March. It caused the FTSE 100 to rally by more than 10%. But prices quickly fell back after it became clear that worse news was still to come.
Hilary Cook of Barclays Stockbrokers said nervous investors should stay out of the market until the economic outlook is clearer. "We expect the FTSE to be at 5,900 by the end of the year. There is upside from these levels, but it is going to be a rocky ride."
Jeremy Batstone, head of research at NatWest Stockbrokers, is even more cautious. Although his company is predicting an end-of-year FTSE level of 6,300, he believes this may be difficult to achieve given current market conditions. He said: "I can't see the markets moving out of this range because corporate profits will continue to be eroded."
Even so, Batstone believes there is money to be made from shares for braver investors. He favours defensive stocks such as utility firms and drug companies. Even though these have performed well over the past 18 months and now look expensive, he said it was too early to move into cyclical shares that would benefit most when the economy staged a recovery.
When there are signs that the economy is stabilising, investors are advised to start buying stocks such as housebuilders, chemical firms and engineering companies, as these should be among the first to feel the effects of a pick-up.
But even if the market rallies, investors should not expect the returns they have enjoyed over the past two decades.
Low inflation means prices are expected to rise more slowly than in the past, with most experts predicting returns of much less than 10% a year.

[bow5]

Paul, Doubt you'll read this but thanks again for your response. I absolutely agree with you about some people not being cut out for being a pilot. It is a fact of life. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses - you just have to channel them the right way. When I went to RAF Cranwell for pilot selection only 1 out of my whole intake of 35-40 got through with a real prospect of going on as a (fast jet) pilot (I, btw, passed all the aptitude tests well but was unsuitable on account of my legs being 6cm too long for a Tucano ejection seat :rolleyes: ). Some people failed all the RAF aptitude tests which, whatever people say about them, shows they are just not cut for this type of career. They may well be brilliant at something else but as a pilot it would not happen. Some people passed the pilot test but with such a low score they went on as a nav etc. That's just the way it goes. You have to accept it and get on with life.
Finally, I didn't mean your post was childish, just that it was slightly harsh to say someone could not be a pilot because they mis-read a post on an internet site.

Cheers again for your reply.

[Flyerphil]

Bottom Line

I am going to the states to do all my training at a JAR-FCL approved FTO.

It will cost me £30k instead of £65k.

The airlines are no different from any other corporation - if you are impressive enough you will get a job.

Pass first time - get over 85% - no problem (gulp!!!).

If I dont get a job for a year - no big deal I have £35k left in my pocket to either sit on my ar*e or I can build my hours as an instructor.

You are all worrying too much - if you can afford it do the course at Oxford - simply because of the higher number of introductions to Airlines and the guarantee that you will be geeting excellent instruction. Plus the name can't hinder you.

I, on the other hand cannot afford £65k, therefore I will just have to work harder and perform better.

Best of luck to all of you - we are all quite mad but lifes too bloody short to sit festering behind a desk for ever.

See you all at 35,000 feet.

Phil

[scroggs]

I have followed this thread with some interest, and I've noticed, as Paul said above, that it's populated by two distinctly different groups. Those who have a coherent argument, and those whose posts are somewhat emotional and irrational.
Oxford Air Training School is a commercial establishment. It exists to make money. It is not a charity for would-be airline pilots. It makes money both from those it trains and those who buy its products. It has, in general, a good reputation with both and it will seek to continue that. It will not do so by peddling dodgy products which are perceived as useless to the airline community.
To achieve that while not excluding those who are determined to get an ATPL whatever their ability, Oxford has chosen to offer an aptitude-tested deluxe course for those it is most confident will be good recruits into the airlines. If the course works, both the airlines and the students will be happy, and Oxford will make a profit.
I don't see any way in which this course will disadvantage those who choose not to do it, and there are still plenty of other ways of getting your ATPL without spending this kind of money - assuming that it does finally cost the student the £65k quoted. Oxford's 18 graduates per course are not going to flood the market.
The bottom line, ladies and gentlemen, as that the best people will, in general, be the most successful in the job market. If you have little aptitude but lots of money and determination you may well achieve an ATPL, but don't expect me to employ and fly with you! There is no God-given right to a flying career and, as Paul says, many would-be pilots would be better employed in another field. It's harsh but true, peeps, and you just have to accept it.

[RVR800]

I cant help thinking that because of the huge
surplus of people out there with fATPLs the
hoops are raised purely to whittle down numbers at the selection stage rather than for any real need.

One needs a way of being perceived as the best, just to be heard above the masses, and this course is there to do that.

i.e. Throw more cash at the problem to get a solution.

[Crash Barrier]

Scroggs, Wee Weasley,

You moderators are just trying to sell british flying schools. You neither care or
are bothered by the amount of debt a potential student can aquire. The same threads are played out daily on this forum,
i.e. "Borrow the money, sell your granny, pawn your mum's jewellery...!". You do not
give a thought to the consequences of your actions. People with little knowledge of aviation come onto this forum to find out how to become a professional pilot. All they read is from the likes of you both saying "beg, borrow and steal the money" because one day 'son' you will make it. You say it is better to have tried and failed, this 'may' be true, but then the poor student is left 'having failed' with a 60 grand millstone round his neck with no means of paying for it. Bankruptcy soon follows, parents house gets re-possessed because they were loan guarantors.

You should point out the facts to the public.
This is a public forum and you, yes 'you' moderators have a duty to tell the facts as un-biased as possible.

In my opinion you do not at the moment, you are 'failing' therefore when someone questions the training system you simply close the thread.

Someone recently got into trouble for advertising a flight computer on this forum as 'advertising' is not allowed, so you say.

You are 'advertising' these british flying schools daily by constantly supporting the parting of some 60 thousand pounds or so.

[bow5]

Eh? :confused:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Standby.

WWW

[Crash Barrier]

Perhaps you can't read?????!!!!

[PPRuNe Towers]

One of the reasons the moderators get flack here on this forum is that they have a directive to provide a regular and healthy dose of reality.

They have been through the system - right the way through and are working with UK based all jet carriers. The most significant reason as to why they are exposed to the aggro is because they are effectively lone voices. There are only a handful of qualified and employed airline people who regularly grace this particular forum.

Everyone else is either going through the system and trying to justify their decisions or, no matter how well intentioned, paying their mortgage with your money.

After many years of running this place and seeing several 'generations' of wannabees pass through I've developed a few ideas regarding this lack of support.

Established pro's get more than a little uncomfortable here. It goes along the lines of, ''Was I really like that?' They also get uncomfortable because they had every single complaint regarding cost, exams and the structure of the system you have.

However, the moment they get that first job every bit of it is forgotten. The problems, iniquities and injustices are left behind and mentally ticked off under the heading of far too difficult to change.

With just a very few honourable exceptions you will all be the same.

You will forget. You will never, ever write a letter detailing what you see as the problems to anyone who can change it. Venting here on PPRuNe is a cop out.

You will throw yourself into your new life as an airline pilot, your wannabee problems fading rapidly into the distance.
The vast majority of you will follow this well established path. That is just the way it works.

And so it will continue here, just a few helpful professional aviators assisting the next lot passing through.

Go ahead, criticise if you want but before hitting the submit button just reread your post as if you were a pro.

Would you bother replying? Would you even bother coming on this forum?? The evidence is very clear that they won't and don't. Next time you write are you reducing this long term problem or just reinforcing it?

Rob

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

[Rob 747]

Well said PPrune Towers. :)

But the main issue here is surely the escalating costs of aviation training.
65K is far too much money to be spending on training of this kind!

If you were to get (as most others have said) a Type Rating or some invaluable experience, then this course would most probably be worth the money.

It is in 'MY OPINION' Oxfords attempt at trying to make more money out of people who are 'chasing a dream'.
If for example we could all have a dream come true, whatever it may be, then we would probably pay for it.
Even with this course your dream is not guarenteed to bcome reality. So this makes me question is it really worth the money? I think not.

I can only say i have not heard a positive thing said about Oxford since i started flying 2 years ago.

The words 'Trading on a name' spring to mind! :D

I think we are all victims of the shiny promo papers and the big pictures of pilots with the two Gold epulettes.
You only have to look at Multiflight to see how a good marketing department works.

Any way i hope thats not too boring.

FAO Scroggs- My first sensible post! :D What do you think? Can i be an Airline Pilot now please? :p :p :D :p

[Capt PPRuNe]

Having spent well over an hour reading this thread because it was brought to my attention due to the comments made by 'Crash Barrier' I feel it may be time to step in and just back up what Robin (PPRuNe Towers), Tim (Scroggs) and Andy (WWW) have been saying. As has been mentioned, this thread appears to be going round in circles and is in need of some new direction or just leaving alone to disappear with time.

Before anyone tries to accuse the moderators of only promoting UK flying schools and twisting reasoning capabilities by brainwashing them into parting with 65K+ of borrowed money you should remember that we do not provide recommendations for anyone but we will draw on our own experiences and impressions of organisations and companies we have worked for. As Robin has stated, no too many pilots who have made it through all the hoops and hurdles that you face as a wannabe bother much with this forum once they have made it to that first jet job.

I appoint moderators for the various forums because of their abilities to not only maintain a neutral point of view when it comes to policing the forum but also their experience in the real world and their ability to make their points clearly in writing, remembering all the time that it is far more difficult to express yourself through a keyboard than it is to speak to someone face to face.

The Wannabes forum was created because I remember when I was thinking about taking the plunge and commiting to training for my commercial license how desperate it was to glean any information outside of the brochures that the FTO's sent you. There was almost nothing of independant value out there. After I had struggled into my first paying job and I had set up PPRuNe, one of the forst things I decided to do was pass on my experiences and encourage others who were in a similar situation.

Andy, when I asked him to help out with the moderating was still desperately trying to get a sponsorship for his training yet he still took time to not only enlighten all of us about his experiences, both the rewarding ones and the utterly disappointing ones but he went on to collate so much of the information that is now available to all the wannabes who have followed since whether it is about interviews or dealing with the CAA and the new JARS. He has been through the 'self improver' route including instructing for both a flying club and one of the larger, corporate backed FTO's and is now learning a whole new set of tricks in the RHS of a B737.

Robin, who has a wealth of experience in aviation, never mind his more 'murky' ;) past in education (amongst other things) has self improved and now commands a B737. Tim, who has progressed through the military and now flies a B747 and also the other 'guest' moderators such as John (Hamrah) who has been flying forever and as well as being Chief Pilot for a major UK low cost airline and is now Director of Flight Operations for another well established UK airline all give up a lot of their own spare time to keep an eye on this forum and try to make sure that everyone gets a fair say and try to keep the arguments and discussion on track. There will always be the odd imbecile who has nothing constructive to say and is only able to make immature comments but as long as most people ignore them and stick to the subject the moderators will deal with them.

When it comes to a discussion like this one, where the implications can be costly if bad advice is given then we will keep a close eye on it. In this case, OATS is under scrutiny and their business is being debated. As as already been mentioned elsewhere, OATS are primarily in business to make a profit whilst providing a service to both the airlines and the wannabes. There is nothing wrong with this and because the market is so much more competitive these days they have to have something that makes them stand out from the crowd.

Several employees of OATS have commented on this thread and we welcome that if it is for clarification of points raised and not pure self promotion. One person has commented unofficially and stated so. Some of you do not like the way those comments were made but as I stated earlier, it is so much more difficult to express oneself through this medium and in my experience is the single biggest reason that threads degenerate because of misunderstandings and misinterpretation of tone and inflection. (As you can see, my basic 'O' Level in English doesn't help).

Those of you who attended the seminars we held at the last GatBash will remember, you heard many things from experienced airline pilots that made your hearts drop. You were told about the problems you face and the disappointments you will probably experience between the decision to start commercial pilot training and securing that first airline job. There are no guarantees.

THere are several ways to achieve your goals and some routes to them are easier and also cheaper than others. At least you have all the information available before you here. You do not have to rely solely on the glossy brochures that the FTO's produce but you can call upon your peers for a lot of the information here. You have to have the intelligence to be able to sift through it and read between the lines but all the the info you need is available.

One thing that I noted when Robin and I were invited to speak at the Flight International Crew Management Conference in February, where the theme included the shortage of pilots, and several large FTO's were also participating, was the problems that they face with regard to students who have raised the money, have the enthusiasm but lack the aptitude for a job as an airline pilot. Whilst this is possibly a subjective assessment as to 'suitablity' there is still a lot of experience in training pilots for them to be fairly secure in their judgements.

It is suprising the number of students who have done to all the trouble to raise the money for their training but lack certain elements in their personality and ability for them to ever have much of a chance of getting a job with an airline. Why some of them never bothered to at least try and find out more about their abilities by undergoing some form of aptitude and/or personality testing is unclear but they would certainly have been better off paying a bit extra to find out if they should be commiting to such an expensive course of study and training. A few are unable to finish the course but most will achieve the minimum standard to obtain an fATPL but whether they will ever get a job that pays enough to relieve them of the debts that they have incurred is questionable. A figure of around 40% of 'self sponsored' students might fall into this category was mentioned. The FTO's are not being irresponsible by taking their money because they are in business but if the students aren't honest with themselves they have no one to blame. If you are going to take a 509 course then make sure you are up to the standards required otherwise you WILL be disappointed. The few who make it onto the course mentioned in the topic of this thread will be the elite who have overcome the first hurdles of raising the money but will also have the other charachteristics that are part of the package needed to get a jet job.

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear but you have to be brutally honest with yourselves BEFORE you make that commitment.

All I can say about the subject having gone the self-improver route is to be honest with yourself about your abilities and personality. I worked my way up through night freight in small turboprops to pax and freight in heavy turboprops and now pax on heavy jets. Except for one job where I had to take some psychometric tests I have never had to pass anything except an informal interview to get the jobs. A few of the people that frequent this forum appear to me to be obsessed with analysing every detail involved with the process of deciding where to train and then they have already analysed and tried to break down every detail of what is involved in the interview process followed by the assessment process and so and so on.

You have to have 100% commitment and the ability to ride through the troughs of disappointment that you WILL experience in your chosen route. You have to have SOME personality although there is a wide range between the extremes you will encounter and most importantly you have to have the APTITUDE. Unfortunately not everyone who starts out has it and it is not something that you can learn. A good instructor will help you develop it but if you don't have it to begin with then you will probably be wasting your time. You HAVE to be HONEST with yourself and only then will you be able to start the often difficult and disheartening process of raising the money to try and reach your goal.

I would relate my experiences but things have changed so much in the last 10 years that they are not relevant any more except to state that I could not afford nor raise the money for a 509 course and I am too thick and lazy to be an instructor so I remortgaged my home and self improved by on eof the few routes that is now closed to all of you. I was 35 when I made the decision and 38 when I got my first job as an F/O so just to prove a point, there is hope for a lot of you yet.

Finally, I remember a few years ago when all this new JAA stuff was being discussed on here and how it was going to affect everyone. There were some campaigns to get people who would be affected by all the changes to write to their MP's and anyone in government who would listen, with email and postal addresses listed on PPRuNe and standard letters to use. I just wonder how many of you actually took the time to make use of the help that was provided to try and prevent some of the now closed doors to professional flying training that the new JAA rules have put in place? I seem to remember someone talking about the writing on the wall and the problems of extra expense and other hurdles that the new rules would place before all new wannabes... now who could that have been? None other than our own Wee Weasly Welshman!
:eek:

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Danny and Rob, thanks for that, I was taking my time to compose my thoughts and you have saved me a great deal of explanation.

I often feel I am walking a tightrope on Wannabes. On the one hand I want to say "go on - go for it!" it really is a cracking job, life isn't a dress rehersal and follow your dreams. On the other hand - its going to cost you blood, sweat and tears if everything goes well and more than likely you'll end up penniless at least for a while, unable to sleep at nights and stressed out like you can barely imagine. If a recession comes you'll regret the day you decided to try for commercial aviation as the worst move of your life.

So I try. I try to fairly emphasise the downsides but acknowledge the merits - whether that be a training route, a flying school or a particular flying job. A kind of benevolent scepticism if you will. Now I cannot always get it right and I *have* given out duff gen over the years. But its all honest to goodness well intentioned.

For the specifics of this case I take the view that OATS are not to be derided for their new scheme and that the average Wannabe has little to fear. I could never have afforded to take up the scheme myself but there ARE people out there that can and jealousy of their riches is no excuse. Those in life with the money AND the aptitude will nearly always rise above those that 'just' have the aptitude. Fact.

As for the JAA costs increases. I have made my opinion - with living examples - clear on:
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.c gi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010705&p= (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010705&p=)

Danny - I am touched that you remembered my campaigns against NVQ VTR withdrawl, flagging out and JAA implementation. At the time we did get some questions asked in high places and I - along with Hansard - have the papers to prove it :)

I agree with Capt PPRuNe's sentiments that too many people focus too keenly on the minutae of FTO comparison and Aptitude Selection. Its a kind of 'concrete' area where one almost feels there might be a 'key', a 'trick' or a 'right answer'. Truth is - there ain't.

There ARE guiding principles, common issues and things to avoid - but by their nature these are all far less attractive to pursue for the Wannabe in a hurry.

I have had dealings with an extraordinary number of young men and women pursuing their aviation dreams over the last 4 years. Some are now flying BA 757/67 out of Heathrow, some are still barely making a living flying, some have yet to complete training, many have crashed and burned with huge debts, an incredible loss of self esteem and a sense of both failure and relief about them...

Which will *you* be tonight?

I don't know, I'm talking to my trusty (rusty) monitor - you are an audience I cannot see, cannot hear. Cut me some slack. And if I can help you, advise you, I will... along with the rest of the PPRuNe Wannabe email waiting for me fresh tonight:

a) Pete_UK Where did you do your instructors rating... Mon Sept 3 2001 3k

b) admin Private Message Notification: : RN Apti... Mon Sept 3 2001 3k

c) admin Private Message Notification: : Practic... Sun Sept 2 2001 3k

d) Chris Tidd Cadet Entry and Aptitudes Sat Sept 1 2001 2k

e) ANIL SHARMA INSPIRATION Sat Sept 1 2001 5k

f) Kathy PPSC v BAe Thu Aug 30 2001 7k

g) "Capt. D.J. Rowe" RE: My posting on pprune. Thu Aug 30 2001 5k

h) "Capt. D.J. Rowe" RE: My posting on pprune. Thu Aug 30 2001 4k

i) admin Private Message Notification: : FTO Rec... Thu Aug 30 2001 3k


Keep smiling out there and good luck, see you all on a flightdeck someday,

Wee Weasley Welshman - PPRuNe's Original Wannabe

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

[lumbalund]

I think you are getting rippedoff,In the USA you can get a licence for maybe 1/3 the cost.I for one cant understand what you learn for all that money that we mear mortals dont.

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: lumbalund ]

[VFE]

Very interesting posts from the moderators there and very much appreciated as always.

In my view there is quite a big problem for the would be self-sponsorer in that there's very limited resources available for them to test their aptitude before they part with their money.
OK so there are the GAPAN tests at Cranwell. But these tests only assess hand-eye-foot co-ordination and number retention. That's it. No Maths and no Physics and certainly no personality testing. I am not knocking the GAPAN tests at all because without them the self-sponsorer would be well and truly up the creek without a paddle.
You do not need two A-Levels and/ or a degree to self-sponsor at any FTO. You cannot apply for sponsorship to gain experience at the interview process unless you have the above qualifications. A PPL is going to go someway in improving ones confidence for an integrated course but is it going to tell you wether you can cut it at CPL level? I doubt it.

We debated a while ago the subject of FTOs screening self-sponsored cadets and it got a little heated mainly (IMO) because the vast majority of wannabes thought it unreasonable that FTOs should test them. How mad is that? My view is that they should test us and BAE, as far as I know, are the only approved JAR integrated school to do this.
If nothing else it makes a mockery of pilot training that anyone with the money can effectively stroll into an FTO and next week be training to fly commercially without having any level of assesment made of them before they hand over their cash. Before I get shot down in flames for saying that I would like to make it clear that I don't think it is wrong of the student but wrong of the industry that this can happen. I am not saying that all FTOs should test as stringently as OATS plans to for it's new course but at least lets be put through some sort of interview/ aptitude assesment and not just be able to flash our GCSE certificates, money and be shown to our dorms.
It just doesn't seem right and I think that the JAAs should do something about it. The FTOs won't like it, the students with the money will moan about it but at least it *may* save a few more parents losing their houses and failed students being in debt for the best part of their adult lives.

I will be starting an integrated course later this month and I sat the aptitude tests and acheived a result which was enough for the FTO to offer me a place on the course.
I am greatful that they did this (they could have done more but I am greatful that they did aptitude test me), more schools should follow suit.
I only have GCSEs which I hope through private study over the past few months I have managed to improve on somewhat. I don't know for sure wether I am at the required level because it was seven years ago since I left school and to be frank - the jobs I have done (mainly music) do not require an awfull lot of numerical ability and knowledge of Physics! Well, how to lift a thirty stone Hammond Organ down three flights of stairs at 01:00 surrounded by drunk jazz fans is a bit of a mechanics poser but not at the level required by this profession I fear!
It would be nice to have the educational side of my aptitude tested. I know I may appear to be asking alot but is it really considering the profession and the money involved?

As it stands though we have to do this ourselves so if any self-sponsorers fail to either a) pay their £150 for the GAPAN tests b) Get their PPL or c) have the qualifications that will allow them to apply for sponsorship, then they really should not be going for it because, if anything, it shows they don't have the presence of mind to be responsible.

In my view the OATS scheme is a good thing. Shame about the price but that's aviation. I just hope that those who can't afford it manage to satisfy themselves of their abilities before they spend their money.

Good luck everyone,

VFE.

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: VFE ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

lumbalund - as has been stated many times... an FAA license is not worth the license it isn't printed on in Europe. The costs of conversion are higher than that of gaining the orginal JAA license. No amount of cheap training is therefore worth it. Even if you have a green card - you'll still be hauling regional turborprop when your EU contemporary will be flying a jet. Not to say one system is better than the other BUT its a fact that the JAA/EU system is higher cost BUT potentially higher reward.

Cheers,

WWW

[pugzi]

I feel the need to reply, sadly.

Why oh why does a school charging 65k manage to intice so much anger and agro from you all? If you dont want to pay it, dont. If a TV channel offends you, change the channel!!!!.
Do Eton and Harrow get this much hatred for charging the earth, I flipping doubt it.
Are you being forced to pay this, erm....NO!!. If you cant afford it, go else where, pay less, you'll moan less, you'll be happier and this site might work a little better. This thread is beginning to feel like a child complaining that some-one else got more dinner then he did.

For those who can afford 65k, I'm some what envious, and I wish you the best, really i do.

For those that dont, also good luck, you'll have spare change left, like me. And if the 65k course fails, just think how much happier you'll be by saying "told you so, nanny nanny goo goo!!". Child!!!

Thankyou

An ex wannabe.

[TheSilverFox]

What's so special about pilots???

We just drive aeroplanes!!

[scroggs]

Crash Barrier,
I think you nicely illustrate the genre of the emotional and irrational poster!
None of the moderators here present advertise or recommend any particular course provider. We do, at times, try and explain the idiosyncracies of the system when people are lost in its complexity, and we most certainly point out the facts of commercial life with which you must deal if you want to become an airline pilot in Europe.
I neither recommended Oxford's new course, nor did I present it as the only way to progress to an airline job. In fact, I thought I quite neatly showed that Oxford's course is just one of many ways to get there, and that the small number of people who do enrol on it will not significantly affect the overall market. I did, however, attempt to explain the rational behind the course, as I saw it.
You can wish all you like that commercial licence training were cheaper and easier. It isn't, and will not be so. You can also wish that all those who'd like to be an airline pilot should succeed. They won't. You might prefer it if I flannelled you all with a message that it'll all be alright, you'll all make it, and it'll only cost you £15 with your Sainsbury's Reward card. I won't.
I, and WWW, and the others when they visit, are here to keep your ramblings on the reasonably straight and narrow, and prevent you getting lost in the dream world which some of you would apparently like to inhabit!
It's not for us to reinforce your preconceptions or dreams, but to tell you how it really is. I'm sorry you can't take that, but those who can are more likely to be better prepared for what actually lies ahead.
Rob747, looks like you're getting there! :cool:

[skysoarer]

This page (6) is probably contains the most useful information of any I've read on PPRune; bravo to the admin guys for posting it! That said I do agree with Pugzi too...

I must admit I only started posting onto pprune to mention EPST, previously only viewing the pages. I got fed up with the repeting same old questions coming up nigh on every week and frankly I lost the will to post; this is the first this week anyway.

I'd say the first rule for ANYBODY thinking of going into commercial aviation is to 'find out if YOU CAN do it'.
I.e can you meet the requirements of a class 1 medical and do an aptitude test (Gapan recommended). You must do this if you are serious about spending lots of dosh.

Of course a sponsorship/RAF will take care of this for you...

Perhaps a free test courtsey of Java and my website could help... Oh for the time!

But again big thanks to the admin guys, top class info.

Graeme Scott
[email protected]

[Polar_stereographic]

Just wanted to pass on my thanks to the moderators, for all the effort they have put into this forum. I for one have benefited from their experiences.

What's more, I get the feeling that once through the gate, there is a dendancy to make sure that the gate remains shut.

I mention that not as a criticism nor to further stoke the debate, but as a compliment to the moderators for all the effort and advice that they part with, maybe not the norm for those who have landed their dream job.

PS

pps, sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. You have a choice - take it or leave it, but moaning is not going to change it.

[Sensible]

Consider this, if the training was cheaper, more would undertake the training and pilots would undoubtedly have an even smaller chance of getting hired at the end of the training! It is unfortunate though that so many people undertake the training when it is very clear to all except maybe the student that he/she will never realistically ever obtain gainful employment as a pilot. An ATPL is easy, it only requires training. The other qualities necessary are embedded in the personality of the individual.

[Crash Barrier]

Boo Hoo Hoo, I am filling up with tears and emotion! well done you guys (moderators)
OK, well if it is not blatant 'advertising' of schools then maybe it is simply 'promotion' Capt PPrune comments "OATS are primarily in business to make a profit whilst providing a service to both the Airlines and Wannabes" then mentions OATS a further 3 times in his thread!

Aviation is a small world and maybe it's a case of you scratch my back. I am not saying that promotion of the UK aviation training industry is wrong but what I don't like is the fact that the moderators (wee weasley especially) seem to think that the JAA licence is a superior test of airmanship compared to all other flying licences worldwide.

It is up to the consumer where he wants to train, I am sure that U.S. airlines fly just as safely as U.K. and european airlines. It is the blatant snobbery of this forum towards other licences that I cannot stand.

'Other' licences are utilised in europe for flying biz-jets, cargo etc.

Promotion of U.K. training establishments is a good thing, as I believe they are dying a death anyway, *but* this should not be at the expense of warning people off and putting down every other countries training system and licence on this forum. Just because you all came through the good 'ol'trusty CAA system, does *not* mean that it is suitable for everybody.

A forum should be both informative and impartial and you have not achieved this. There is a large wedge driven between "JAA is better than FAA" and all that rubbish. You put down anybody who tries to express a point of view, and immediately the other 'usual' suspects pile in for the kill!

As a *promotion* tool for the U.K. aviation industry, you have achieved a degree of success. In doing so you have also alienated other forms of training.

Simply putting people down who question the system and your motives is not in your best interests.

I rest my case.

[lawyer100]

Good post C.B.
Not only does the forum border on libel against the F.A.A. but also slander.

[GonvilleBromhead]

Polar, well said. I don't want to hijack this thread, the merits of OATS et al will be long debated after this, but to Danny and the moderators, cheers for running pprune. You're not gonna please everyone nor should you try (obviously).

Just now and again I reckon a bit of thanks could be in order, whether we agree with your views or not (no I'm not an ass kisser looking for a job with Virgin, nor related to any of 'em before anyone asks).

A site like this, free, with a spectrum of views as wide as you like...not bad !

cheers.

[Polar_stereographic]

Hmmmm.

I smell a rat.

PS

Just a thought, I wonder how the top two IP addresses compare?

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]

[scroggs]

CB/US Lawyer (I believe you are one and the same),
you obviously have no idea of the definitions of libel (written defamation) or slander (spoken defamation)! And some examples might give your case some much-needed credibility.....
In fact, your implication that we are somehow in thrall to the UK FTOs is itself libellous. Do you really want to go down that road? Perhaps Danny should warn his lawyer!
The fact is that this forum exists primarily for UK Wannabes undertaking the JAA licences to obtain paid employment in the JAA-administered area. The merits or otherwise of the FAA/Australian/Japanese/whoever licences are irrelevant if you can't get a job here with them. The costs of converting a non-JAA licence to a JAA one make them a non-starter for our people. Yes, there are a few Wannabes with dual-nationalities who can usefully obtain an alternative ATPL and work elsewhere, but they are in the tiny minority. So what would you rather we do? Promote FAA licences and then hold our hands up saying 'not my fault, guv' when you discover you've wasted your money and can't get a job? Come on, what use would that be to the 99% here who want to work in Europe? Don't forget there are other websites that deal with their own areas; we are not experts on those other systems, and would be out of our depth advising a (say) US citizen on the specifics of how to progress to a job with a US major.
You complain about Danny mentioning OATS three times in his post? Well, hello? This thread is about OATS' new course! Methinks you just feel the need to rail against authority (ie the moderators) and you forgot to engage your brain first. Or had you just returned from the pub?

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

[Capt PPRuNe]

Scroggs, don't bother wasting your time with this guy. He had an arsehole transplant and the arsehole rejected him!

Anyone with more than one active brain cell can read this thread and realise that this guy knows nothing about which he likes to preach. As you state, the thread is about OATS and their course. The fact that it gets mentioned is inevitible. As for his alter ego even mentioning the words 'libel' and 'FAA' in the same sentence show how really ignorant he really is as you cant libel an organisation.

Sufficce it to be known that this thread is about the problems facing those people who want to get UK professional licences and jobs in the UK with UK Airlines. If someone can't grasp that simple fact from the direction of this thread then don't bother wasting your time trying to explain it to them.

FWIW, I actually did my FAA CPL before I did my UK licence and I do agree that it is easier and cheaper to do an FAA licence. I just thought it would be worthwhile doing it that way instead of just building hours. The FAA licence is not worth the paper it is written on if you want a job with a UK airline so we all have to jump through the hoops set up by our glorious Campaign Against Aviation. I'm not syaing one is beter than the other just that that is the way it is and until enough people get of their backsides and try to do something about it it will always be that way.

As this thread is getting close to the 100 replies mark anyway I'll have the satisfaction of having the last word and then archive the thread for posterity. "OATS, OATS, OATS OATS, OATS... CabAir (for balance of course) and PanAm (for international relations)"

There, that feels much better thank you! :rolleyes:

Oh, and before I forget, the FAA is nasty and dangerous to small furry animals. Now go sue me!
:eek:

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]