Who wants changes to LACC morning shift

[zygote]

The possibility of starting a morning duty at 06.30 is being discussed. Does anyone actually think this is a good idea ??

[Brilliant Disguise]

What's the big deal?
Many other ATCOs start before 0700, some as early as 0600 and possibly earlier. You won't all start then and on the up side you'll finish earlier too.
Traffic flows have changed. Mornings used to start at 0745 but flights started to schedule earlier and so we evolved our work patterns to cope.
What's so sacrosanct about 0700 at LACC?
If the traffic is offering from 0650 then have enough people in to open the sectors by then. Its not rocket science!
Join the rest of us in the 21st century.

[250 kts]

But that's just it-we will all start at 0630. We also have plenty of shifts which commence earlier than this. Yes the shift will be shorter but probably only by 30 mins and unsurprisingly other shifts will be longer to compensate.

[Brilliant Disguise]

unsurprisingly other shifts will be longer to compensate
OK so you all start at 0630, but surely your night shift will then finish at 0630, for the few of you still there then, anyway! :p

[250 kts]

Brilliant,

Once again a comment which just shows the complete lack of awareness of the situation at LACC regarding staffing. If things are sooooo good down here why are there not loads of people volunteering to fill the shortages??:confused: :confused:

Yep, you've got it, because most of the other 24 hour units know they are still on to a good thing staffing wise. It's really time management took some hard decisions and started to post people into LACC compulsorily as a mobile grade to spread the pain a bit 'cos we really are creaking at the seams. Unfortunately the operational ATCO at LACC is seen by the rest of the country as slacking when it is really the management who have got us into this mess and outside LACC appear to get off scot-free.

[5milesbaby]

The shift will be shorter???? Very much doubt it, just finish 30 mins earlier than normal, so basically the same shift length. However, starting earlier than 7am DOES NOT APPEAL AT ALL, tiredness is hard enough to cope with, so stuff earlier starts to do an 8 hour shift (which is ultimately what they want so night numbers are irradicated), I'm happy to struggle on with how things are now.

Finishing a night shift at 6:30 at any time of the day/month/year/decade would simply be PURE BLISS, however, it never happens.

[A I]

Hey Mr Brilliant Disguise,

Your comment "for those still left" really shows your lack of understanding of the situation at LACC. At Swanwick everybody stays until the end of the shift. (And arrives at the beginning)

AI

[zed3]

None of my business as I don't work in the UK ..... BUT , has the ageing factor been considered here? Out here in the USSE similar ideas have been mooted and I have also argued that people who have started at 0730 for a morning (and have a night that following night) AND are aged 50plus cannot be expected to adjust to this regime. "Our staff our our most important asset" Harrumph!

[StillDark&Hungry]

Personally I feel bad enough throughout the busy morning shift already! Having even less sleep is not a pleasant thought!

As previously mentioned aren't we soon going to be governed by EU constraints, limiting us to a max shift length of 8 hours?

Therefore, if we agree to 6:30 starts now - surely it won't be long til we see :-

06:30 - 14:30 :yuk:
14:30 - 22:30
22:30 - 06:30

[Scott Voigt]

Still Dark and Hungry;

Shoot, what you have listed is pretty much the normal FAA watch schedule at most places with some changes of course for overlap.

regards

Scott

[zonoma]

However Scott, on our current NATS pattern we are sort of limited to amount of nights permitted in a year due to doing an excess of contractural hours. If we move to the proposed start time, I too agree the times will all be altered to StillDarks guesses, so permenant nights can be rostered, and probably will :mad: :mad:

No thankyou very much.

[250 kts]

Not sure the European law on shift length will apply to us. Anyone know any better?

[bjcc]

The European Working Time Directive exemption runs out in either June or July...Yes it does limit the number of hours you can work, to 8 I think. A mate of mine works for an airline, and they will be restricted because of it to 2 days overtime each in any 11 weeks....If (and I am not sure it will be) thats translates the same way at LACC .... well so much for AAVA's being used to open loads of sectors!

[StillDark&Hungry]

Scott,

06:30 - 1430 may well be the FAA norm, but I feel sorry for you!

In my opinion our AM shifts over here at LACC are significantly busier than PM shifts, therefore I much prefer it to be the shorter shift!:D

Perhaps you guys have a more even spread of traffic:confused: throughout the day and can cope easier with a more even shift length??

[250 kts]

bjcc,

But doesn't that only apply to compulsory O/T not voluntary in which case I think you can work what you like-SRATCOH allowing of course.

[bjcc]

250 knots

I am not sure, I think, from previous jobs you can sign a form allowing you to do overtime. There are very few jobs with complsory overtime away. But again I think thats a time limited dispensation.

In any event from memory the limit under the working time directive is 40 hours a week avarage.

[Scott Voigt]

Still Dark and Hungry;

At the busy facilities the traffic normally picks up around 0700 or there abouts and just keeps on giving until about 2130 or so... Of course every facility has slightly different spurts, such as some of the cargo hubs that just keep pressing on all nght long.

regards

Scott

PS. For those who don't know our normal watch schedule looks a bit like this....

1530 - 2330 or 1430 - 2230
1330 - 2130
0630 - 1430
0630 - 1430
2230 - 0630

For short staffed and or facilities that are training for new equipment, you can also add in 6 day work weeks..

[garp]

Scott,

Surely the watch you describe must start with the early shift as I don't see how anybody would be required to end the day between 2130 and 2230 and come back in the next day at 0630. If it's the case I don't understand how you folks manage. For me the difference between starting at 0630 or at 0700/30 is huge. It would be my worst nightmare come true if I were asked to work from 0630 to 1430. Call me a pussy but I rather spend some time with my kids or play golf rather than lying knock-out on the sofa when I come home.

[5milesbaby]

Scott, does your night shift start on the same day as your morning, ie do you only get 8 hours off, or is it a next day thing? How many days off between cycles too?

A 6:30 start for me wouldn't just screw me up, it starts affecting my life further afield, I'm dead against it :*

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Y'all;

There is no mistake about the schedule. That is the way that it is done in most of the US where we have 24 hour facilities. There are of course always exceptions at some facilities who run some pretty strange scheduling schemes. But for the most part, that is the normal schedule.

As to the midnight shift begining on the same day as the morning shift. Yup, it sure does. You would be hard pressed to find folks to change it though. Most think about it being the best way to get the most amount of time off in one large chunk. Unlike Europe, we don't get nearly as many days off as you do. We also are required to work 40 hours a week and quite a few folks work overtime too. It is not permitted overtime but mandatory. Of course if they call you that morning to come in, the easy way out is that you are either taking medication for alergies, or just had a beer <G>...

We also have this strange thing called a credit hour. It is where you work extra at YOUR request. If they have work for you to do, they allow you to stay or come in early. We have some folks who come in an hour early for 0630 shift so as to get the midshifters out of position before the traffic starts picking up. No need to have someone who is tired working hard at the end of the shift...

People earn these credit hours by working 9 and 10 hour days so that they can get more vacation time. It is sad but true... Kind of self defeating in my opinion if you are trying to get more time off officially sanctioned by the govt. if you show them that you are willing to work even more...

Take care

Scott

PS. Probably the only modern country that works more hours a week than the US worker would be the Japanese worker...

[garp]

Scott,

I really feel sorry for you guys back there but I guess it's just the way it is and that everybody is used to it. On my trips to the States I always found it unbelievable how few vacation days the average worker has in the US. I love my job but under the conditions you've described I would go and search for something else before it kills me. Good luck to you.

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Garp;

I guess we are just wired differently <G>... There is a difference between the European work culture and US work culture. When you don't know any better, you just work away and do as you will. Look again at how the Japanese work... It's worse than us in many cases.

Would I love to get the working conditions that most European controllers enjoy? You bet, but that would also come with in most of western Europe, come with lower pay for the busy facilities, much more expensive cost of living and higher taxes. So in many ways, it is probably a wash for us. But again, would I love to have as many days off as you, oh GOD YES!!!!!!!!!

I also don't consider the work to be killing me in any way shape or form. The shift work as I get older is getting a little more difficult in that I just don't want to get up in the morning for that 0630 shift. But it wouldn't matter if I were working them straight, I would still enjoy sleeping in until about 0800 <G>. Being three years until I am elligible to retire also helps out my mind set <G>. I will be able to retire when I am 49. I think that is better than most of Europe, but I could be wrong. I won't go that early though as I would like to get the house paid off first. THEN I am OUT OF HERE <G>...

When I say that I am out of here though, it isn't because I don't want to do the job anymore. I still LOVE the job and wouldn't mind continuing doing it. But I would like to not have so many early morning shifts or midnight shifts. I would like to be able to take off when I want too also. So instead of working for 40 cents on the dollar or so, I might as well just retire and find another job if I want to work, doing what I want to do part time and work when I want to work and no more...

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman

PS. Soon to be 47 <GGGG>

[garp]

Scott,

The fact that you still enjoy it at your age is the living proof that your system is workable and acceptable. Being able to retire six years before us is very nice, perhaps with the increasing traffic our pensionable age will come down from 55 where it is at the present. I've got 16 years behind me and still 21 to go which would mean 37 years at the same facility, hmmm.
Say hello to the crowd from Maastricht UAC at the IFATCA-conference and enjoy the sun overthere.

[WetFeet]

6.30 starts, or earlier, sound hellish but lets not forget, if the traffic is there then it needs to be worked.

I hate to spout a management line, but we are paid a very good wage and Unsocial Hours Payment to do exactly that, work unsocial hours.

Another thing to remember is that if you are asked to come in earlier to work traffic that is arriving earlier, then that traffic has come from somewhere, and worked by someone. I am referring to Shanwick where it is busy at 3am and there are consequently night shifts that start at 1am and 2pm, ending at 8am and 9am respectively, because that is when the traffic is there! Starting a shift at 2am I would suggest is more antisocial than coming in at 6am when at least you have managed some sleep.

I am not suggesting for one minute that we tear up WPP and have shifts starting at any time of day or night but we do need to be realistic and recognise when the service is required!

[StillDark&Hungry]

Scott

Sorry for not replying sooner, been off air for a while.

Still trying to get my head around the shift pattern you described!
We definitely have it too easy!!!
Just a couple of Q's:
How many days off do you get after working the 5 straight you listed? and,
What's your sickness record like (generally, not personally!)
Can imagine alot of LACC controllers who wouldn't be seen dead in the ops room on a morning after the afternoon before!!!

[Scott Voigt]

Still Dark and Hungry;

Sorry this took so long, I just got back from IFATCA in Argentina. I'm beefed out right now <G>>...

We get two days off after every five day shift ( That is if we don't have mandatory overtime. ). You have to remember that we work a 40 hour work week over here. It's the expected thing <G>.

As to sick leave. Well, I guess that the norm is probably a couple of days off sick every few months at most. Of course there is the abnormal when you come down with something which will keep you from working, but for the most part it isn't too bad. We earn four hours of sick time every pay period which is two weeks. There are some folks of course who use every hour they earn and consider it guaranteed vacation time <G>...

Take care

Scott