Ryanair Taxi Tactics

[doggydogtrained]

On Thursday night at STN a Ryanair 737-800 being taxied by a female Pilot, continued to taxi at the Increased Ryanair taxi speed between 2 Airbus A300's despite being told by tower to give way to the Channel Express Aircraft, which in fact was the second aircraft to leave the Alpha's. When tower informed them of what they had done, the reply was "Sorry i thought you meant the other one" . The other one in question was an A300 TNT half orange aircraft, not exactly hard to miss unless you are incompetent, or just going to damn fast to stop.

When are Ryanair going to realise that stupidity is not a qualification. But then maybe I have just answered that!

I doubt they would have stopped in time, what do you think may of happened.

Comments from Ryanair pilots appreciated on this matter of safety, providing you can string a few words of ENGLISH together.

Sorry Mindthegap, this rules you out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[In trim]

How do the Ryanair bonuses / performance payments work? I understand pilots are paid some kind of bonus based on block time.....and also the speed the cabin crew work to achieve a quick turnround suggests they are getting some kind of incentive payment for this.

I'd be interested in what elements of punctuality performance you FR guys are paid bonuses to achieve.

[A300Man]

Whilst you may have a point w.r.t. the now-infamous Ryanair accelerator pedals being stuck, there is no need to be quite so vicious with respect to anyone's command of the English language.

I am sure you could have asked your question without quite so much malice!

And, does it actually matter whether the driver was male or female? Ignoring rules and instructions from TWR is wrong no matter the sex, nationality or employment origins.

[batty]

We are not paid a bonus for punctuality in any way shape or form.

How do you know it was a female taxing , since it is the Captain who taxis the aircraft and the FO who does the radios on the ground. The fact that it was a female or not has nothing to do with the matter.

Taxi instructions at busy periods in Stan can get long and complicated and thus a mistake may have been made. I assume no one else has ever made a taxi mistake???? No I thought not...

No pilot would deliberatly ignore the taxi instructions, it wouldnt ever even enter my mind, we are professionals. If this has entered yours Doggydog then maybe you have thought about it yourself...

As for insinuating that the Ryanair pilots are either all foriegn, incompitent or stupid and dangerous.....

Grow up and take your bigoted attitudes elsewhere where they are wanted..

Did I spell that out clearly enough in English for you?

[White Knight]

There is a very valid point being made regarding the speed at which some Ryanair - captains I imagine !!!- taxi their aircraft. I have witnessed it many a time, especially at DUB, quite often at LGW.
Keep the speed down heh guys......and girls:) :)

[foxmoth]

batty,
Whilst I agree many of us will have made taxiing errors at times, isn't this EXACTLY the reason you should not taxi too fast, as seems to be the point in this thread!:eek: ;) :rolleyes:
(quite agree the post was over inflamatory)

[Wing Commander Fowler]

On the subject of the english language - White Knight says:

There is a very valid point being made regarding the speed at which some Ryanair - captains I imagine !!!- taxi their aircraft.

What exactly is it you "Imagine" here? Captain sits on left, tiller on left, F/O sits on the right.........

Maybe you "imagine" a graphic display of the Karma Sutra, in which case you should be a little less critical of the F/O taxiing since my t'inking is he (or she) is doing a fine job all things considered.......

:confused:

[Hooligan Bill]

The problem here is the phraseology. 'Give way to' does not have the same meaning as 'after the'. While the former implies the priority in the event of a conflict, it does not stop the aircraft given the instruction passing in front of the other one if they consider there is enough room to do so and can do so safely.

[j17]

Hooligan Bill

when I am doing GMC and I give a clearance for an acft to give way to another, thats what I expect him to do.Not cut in front, as you suggest because you think there is enough room.There may also be other reasons why you are told to give way, Slot order,arranging acft in the departure sequence to expediate tfc.

[JW411]

I still reckon that when it comes to fast-taxiing, Lufthansa pilots makes Ryanair pilots look like Boy Scouts!

[spekesoftly]

It's interesting to note that some years ago, the UK ATC Regulators decreed that the phrase "Give way" should not be used in instructions to the drivers of vehicles. The ban did not apply to ATC instructions to pilots, but I suggest that "Give way to and follow the XXX" is even more specific.

It's not appropriate to judge the incident described, but I note that it took place at night, and there was confusion between two aircraft of the same type.

[Hooligan Bill]

250kts

'Give Way' has the same meaning as it does on the roads. At a junction the 'Give Way' sign indicates that the traffic on the road you are entering has priority. This however does not stop you entering that road, quite often ahead of traffic already on it, as long as it is safe to do so. Therefore in aviation terms by issuing a 'give way' instruction you are indicating that a certain aircraft has priority but you can continue ahead of it if safe to do so. If it had the same meaning as 'after the', then for a start we would not have two different instructions, and secondly MATS PT1 would not prohibit the use of the 'give way' instruction to resolve conflictions between vehicles and aircraft.

[Happy Landings]

Non-Pilot here!

I had a job interview with Ryanair in Dublin not so long ago for an Engineering job, one of the questions was:-

"We have a problem with our Pilots taxing too fast and wearing out excessive amounts of tyres, how would you deal with that?"

My answer probably lost me the job, but I said "I noticed that this morning when we left Luton at what seemed like 150mph"
(That was during taxi - not take off)

At least Ryanair are keeping Tyre manufacturers in business.

(Any spelling mistakes, please let me know I haven't been to school for a few years now!)

Happy Landings

[250 kts]

Hooligan,

Surely if the instruction is "Give Way to A300 coming from the right" then that is a mandatory instruction which must be adhered to-not a case of I reckon I can nip out in front of it. I can't believe the instruction would have simply been "Give Way"-can you?

In aviation terms the controller is issuing an instruction that the other aircraft has, as you say,priority and so far only you seem to find ambiguous. There is also the major difference with the roads in that here the controller makes the decisions at junctions,not you the driver!!

I also can't believe that you would prefer the instruction to be "Stop until the A300 passes" or would you?

I stand to be corrected here but if there is a general mis-understanding of what "give way" means then there are lots of ATCOs at airfields who had better keep a b****y good eye out.

[Atropos]

Apart from all the mud slinging which is mildly amusing the most staggering thing to me about this thread has been the references to Captains taxi and F/O's operate the radio!!! On a lot of our A/C there are two tillers and when it is the F/O's sector they taxi-staggering isn't it?!

[Big Ron]

"If the taxiing Ryanair becomes airborne contact radar on 13*.**"

[doggydogtrained]

With respect to your posts:

A300man: ive flown Ryanair several times and have not once understood the pilots announcement.

Batty: Ryanair Pilot. Enough said there!!! 3 spelling mistakes in your post.

Hooligan Bill: I think j17 is somewhat more educated than you are.

spekesoftly: Your right the confusion is that TNT is half orange with tnt on the side and channel is white with channel express written on the side, no wonder they mixed the 2 up.

Maybe a seperate call should be made to Ryanair pilots which would avoid all these problems. How about:

Ryanair frxxx blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[Flying Kiwi]

Dog:

With reference to spekesoftly in the above post, I think you meant "you're", rather than "your". Also, shouldn't there be an apostrophy or full stop after "your(sic) right".

When you rip this pish outta someone for their spelling, it helps to get it right yourself big fella :t Or is it a grammar issue? :o Never was much good at England meself.

Awaiting a burning reply.

FK

:}

[G-AMMY]

I know what you mean! Do airside speed limits not apply to some pilots? Also, quite often I see a lot of pilots not even following the taxiway centre-line markings and cutting corners just so that they get on stand sooner.

:rolleyes:

[ETOPS]

Just to be clear; Boeing built various versions of it's 737 range and from the outside it is impossible to tell whether the co-pilot has a tiller or not. Most, but not all, of the -200's I flew were steered from the left and nearly every -400 had dual control.

How about suggesting that 20kts should be the absolute limit on the ground and slower than that at night/bad weather.........

[brownstar]

there are guidance taxi speed limits which the Ryanair pilots are limited to both for safety and tyre wear. If any one else would like to indicate if their company rules indicate any guidance speeds for taxi, or is it up to each pilot to decide for themselves.
I'm not going to say what our are first because I am interested to see if any other company has guidance speeds for taxi in the apron, taxiways, and on turns.
Thanks for any replies to this !

[411]

Brownstar,
Max 30 kts in a straight line and 10 kts or less round the corners,
(to prevent tyre shoulder wear).
In fact our QARs flag up anything above 30 kts on the ground.

[fourthreethree]

doggygog

I agree with your basic assertion re "give way to..." phraseology, quite why there is a discussion about it is quite frankly scary.
However it is your attitude I disagree with. I'm not going to list your (or anyone elses) grammatical errors, we live and work in a multi-national environment, and whether our colleagues/customers are native English speakers or not makes no difference, so why take the attention away from what is an important safety matter with your peurile rantings? You are doing the already shaky relations between pilots and controllers no favours.

Hooligan Bill

How can you possibly imagine that a give way instruction with reference to a specific aircraft could mean the same as a general right-of-way give way sign at a road junction? That sort of playing with words and making instructions mean what you want them to mean can only lead to one thing, misunderstanding, which in this job is a very dangerous word indeed.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

SENSE OF HUMOUR FAILURE?

Anyone know why the moderator has removed half the posts.....?

:confused:

ETOPS

Never seen a "400" that didn't have "dual control", however, never seen one with two tillers!! :)

Now, I expect BA probably had a few.....

ATROPOS

"Staggering"??? - surely you exaggerate! "Unusual" might be more appropriate. Staggering is when a Captain buys the beer.....

:yuk:

[Burger Thing]

Watching the eropean aviation scene now from a distance, I am sometimes a bit surprised how emotional some individuals are when the talk is about Ryanair. And even more amusing is, how often it is clearly noticable, that the contributers to those heated discussions never had hands on the control wheel bigger than a C-172.

Especially Doggydogtrained sounds a bit frustrated... Didn't get the job?

So a pilot did a mistake during taxi. Oh my god, a disaster, a near mishap... You should come around and have a look in other parts of the world. I have heard pilots requesting for taxi, while their aircraft was still being pushed back, just to get a clearance ahead of another aircraft, which was ready to go with the engines running... :rolleyes: .... didn't work, though... :p

And when you think Ryanair or Lufthansa is taxiing fast, I tell you, you should have seen our FOM taxiing...:}

[Chill]

:ooh:

Southwest aren't ones to be caught crawling around either ... go fast enough around corners to get the leans sometimes ... :uhoh:

[Hooligan Bill]

j17, 250 kts, doggydogtrained, fourthreethree,

I suggest you read Rule 37 Right of Way on the Ground 4 (b) which states:-

when the two flying machines are on converging courses, the one which has the other on its right shall give way to the other and shall avoid crossing ahead of the other unless passing well clear of it;

By issuing a 'Give Way' instruction you are telling the pilots which one has the right of way (as it may not be the one on the right). However, the last part of the paragraph still stands.;)

[Rufrix Heavywash]

Might I suggest the Ryanair "management :rolleyes:" issue the following memo:

"Jew to resent conserns expresed by profesional elements within our industry, the maximum taxi speed is to be redused from 80kts to 30kts. This speed ruffly ekwates to that of a cantering horse"

Surely that should be clear to all the cowboys at FR ;)

[timzsta]

Was on 45R last night tending to a 737-300 and a Ryanair 737-800 wizzed past at a right rate of knots, hot in pursuit was a BAA airfield ops vehicle :O

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Careful Rufix - you'll have the moderator wiping out the entire thread with Ant-semitic statements like that.... hehe

:(

[Short Approach?]

Rufrix Heavywash :D It´s only when we lose our sense of humor, we really loose. Great!

[JW411]

Mike Jenvey:

Pilot or not, ddt makes it fairly obvious on a nearby thread that he is a Buzz employee. That might explain a lot, although I would have thought that his frustration might perhaps be better aimed at KLM.

[j17]

Hooligan

Shall we just get rid of GMC and give everybody the Rules of the Air and let you get on with it.I assume you consult the Rules of the Air when you are overtaking acft whilst in the air (if you fly offcourse)to quote the Rules of the Air at any airfield with more than a grass strip and a Air/ground service is a load of twaddle

[Jet A1]

Was quality the other morning at DUB. Good old -200 rust bucket taxying towards the A pier at point of rotation when they handbrake turned onto the wrong stand...(No marshaller or eng so Aer Rianta would have been wetting themselves I expect...) upon realising that the welcoming committee where on the next stand along a large application of reverse followed by a split arse 180 narrowly missing a big fat ESSO truck fuelling a little shamrock 146. Looked very professional especially the CPT hanging out of the DV window maing some very interesting hand gestures to a bemused FR ground crew. Nice work boys !!

[brownstar]

Glad to see everyone is still bashing Ryanair.

411

glad to see you posted a reply to my question about taxi speeds.
Everyone else seems to be on a 'bad mouth Ryanair trip ', well if any of you would care to discuss your company taxi speeds then we could maybe see if there are differences between companies.
our limits, 30 on taxiways distant from the main airport, 25 on taxiways close to the apron, 15 max for turn onto apron, and 10 on the apron.

Does anyone see a problem with these speeds?

it is frustrating when you are behind someone, in the same aircraft type, taxing everywhere at 10 kts. but this is there choice i suppose !?

[NigelOnDraft]

<<taxing everywhere at 10 kts. but this is there choice i suppose !?>>

Please do not confuse MAXIMUM permited with sensible / safe / prudent / comfortable down the back!

That said, being a mere Nigel I have not experienced too many Ryanair taxi alerts. I always find Lufthansa 737s often worth watching however...

Like speeding in your car, but even more so, the time saved by taxing at 30K rather than say 20K, to the holding point queue, or to the terminal to await the marshaller / steps etc. is so minimal I doubt its worth the brake / tyre / heart wear, let along the odd excursion where one did not wish to go...

NoD

[fullyestablished]

Personally I had always assumed that a Give Way instruction was an absolute instruction to wait until the other aircraft has gone first. Frankly it never even crossed my mind that this might have any discretionary element to it. Are there any ATCOs out there who would expect an aircraft to go in front if it could be done safely.

[Go-Around]

Does FR run a QAR/FDM program?

[fourthreethree]

fullyestablished

No.
An atc instruction, at least one issued by me, is absolute, and not open to individual interpretation. Give way to aircraft x means give way to aircraft x. Not give way to aircraft x, unless you think you can get in there first. I'm glad, nay relieved to see that someone out there shares my view.
;)

This thread has also been taken up in the atc issues forum, with some interesting views banging around.

[2 sheds]

My 2-pen'th:

Give way - "allow precedence to" - Oxford Dictionary.

The Road Traffic Act does not apply on an aerodrome, therefore in the absence of a specific meaning allocated to the expression in the RTF Manual, the ordinary English meaning must be assumed. As mentioned previously, the situation is clouded by the fact that on the road, as it is a question of the driver's judgement, the interpretation becomes "give way if you consider that it is necessary".

In many situations, it is a very useful tactical phrase. CAA does not permit its use to vehicles, however, as they consider that pilots are super-intelligent and understand the instruction whereas vehicle drivers are too thick. I had some discussion with them some time ago on the subject. It wasn't exactly phrased like that, but that was the gist of it!

I do have some sympathy with the crew. The requirement is that any conditional instruction should relate to only one other movement. My interpretation is that this should be both visually and verbally, i.e. in spite of an adequate description of the conditional movement, there should be no possibility for visual confusion.

[halo]

I'm sure most of the people that work in the tower at EGLL would agree that if we use "give way to...." we would expect you to hold and wait until the other aircraft has passed. After all, you are in Class A airspace, and the ANO states that you will "Comply with ATC instructions at all times". Come to think of it, that applies to Class D as well.

What you have to bear in mind, is that a lot of controllers nowadays are extremely busy when doing GMC and there is a very strong tendency to file 1261s at the drop of a hat. Please don't become the "accused" by trying to be a smartass and cutting somebody up against contrary instructions. Paperwork is very time consuming and not a lot of fun for anybody involved

The other option of course, is to make the effort to visit the VCR at a unit and find out just how busy the GMC controller is, then maybe you will think twice before trying to be too clever!!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Happy, perhaps they should replace the "analysts" who "thought" tyre wear was caused by fast taxiing.

Or suggest pilots went a bit easier on the brakes. That would account fot 95% of ecxess tyrewear, surely. Or try a diretive to use autobrake only down to 30kts and no extra braking to make the "earlier" turnoff. That should sort it!

[JW411]

I have been trying to figure out why the Ryanair crew got confused in the first place. I have just reread the original posting by ddt and I wonder if the following had anything to do with it.

It is not that long ago that Channex crews were indeed flying TNT A300s painted orange and white. Not only that but they still frequently sub-charter their own A300s to TNT and use TNT callsigns.

Being charitable, could this have been part of the confusion?

[2 sheds]

Halo

With respect, it is irrelevent whether the location is in Class A or D or any other class of airspace. The discussion is centred on an instruction from an air traffic CONTROL unit (in whatever class of airspace) and the interpretation thereof.

2 S

[av8boy]

Well, here I am joining the thread a month or more late...


I suggest you read Rule 37 Right of Way on the Ground 4 (b) which states:-

when the two flying machines are on converging courses, the one which has the other on its right shall give way to the other and shall avoid crossing ahead of the other unless passing well clear of it;

By issuing a 'Give Way' instruction you are telling the pilots which one has the right of way (as it may not be the one on the right). However, the last part of the paragraph still stands.


IMHO, Rule 37's Section 2 "controls" here. Section 4 is subject to Section 2 which begins,

(2) Notwithstanding any air traffic control clearance ...

Note that I am not speaking to the meaning of the phrase "give way" here. I am only pointing out that Section 4 does not apply in this case because it was superceded by an air traffic control clearance (assuming that "give way" is an air traffic control clearance).

However, if I have missed the point here (as I am so often wont to do), and the quote is really speaking to the meaning of "give way," well, them I'm going off about nothing. In that case, carry on and just call me "Flame Bait."

I shall now seek other very old threads to comment upon.

Dave

[Finman]

doggynotsotrained - or whatever you call yourself

"or just going to damn fast to stop."

Couldn't be bothered to read the rest of this post. In case noone else pulled you up:

Suggest you get a few lessons in English before running down anyone else.

Too or to: that is the question!:yuk:

[spekesoftly]

Finman,

Perhaps it was just a typo, like:-

Quote: "In case noone else pulled you up" :rolleyes:

[HalesAndPace]

Finman,"Couldn't be bothered to read the rest of this post" Well, don't butt in then, especially with disparaging comments!!:*

[TomPierce]

Well now. Back to taxi "speeders."

I had the misfortune, I say misfortune because I was dismayed, to endure the complete disregard shown by the FD to 'proper' taxi speed when taxying out to 05 at STN on a Ryanair flight to PIK just recently in a 732 (Jaguar).

I assessed the speed to be between 30 and 40kts! 30 because it was certainly NOT less, and 40 because it was probably nearer to that.

There really is no excuse for it.

[1261]

Perhaps the real lesson in English should be in respect of the word notwithstanding ; in this case I would suggest that it means "in spite of" which in turn would mean that the requirement to give way to the right stands, regardless of what ATC have told you.....

[Captain Max]

I've even seen them using reverse thrust as they come into the apron, never seen anyone taxy so fast!

[av8boy]

Perhaps the real lesson in English should be in respect of the word notwithstanding ; in this case I would suggest that it means "in spite of" which in turn would mean that the requirement to give way to the right stands, regardless of what ATC have told you.....

Yup. Caught me not reading what I'd written, and being too damned lazy when it comes to justifying my argument...

First, I agree that "notwithstanding" quite reasonably means "in spite of."

Second, I agree that this phrase means that regardess of whether or not you've gotten some sort of ATC clearance that seems to give you the right to run into someone else, "it shall re

Perhaps the real lesson in English should be in respect of the word notwithstanding ; in this case I would suggest that it means "in spite of" which in turn would mean that the requirement to give way to the right stands, regardless of what ATC have told you.....

Yup. Caught me not reading what I'd written, and being too damned lazy when it comes to justifying my argument...

First, I agree that "notwithstanding" quite reasonably means "in spite of."

Second, I agree that this phrase means that regardess of whether or not you've gotten some sort of ATC clearance that seems to give you the right to run into someone else, "it shall remain the duty of the commander of an aircraft to take all possible measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with any other aircraft or with any vehicle."

However (and this is where I think I went wrong!), 37(4), in its entirity, says:

(4) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (3) and of rule 17(7)(c), in case of danger of collision between two flying machines:

(a) when the two flying machines are approaching head-on or approximately so, each shall alter its course to the right;

(b) when the two flying machines are on converging courses, the one which has the other on its right shall give way to the other and shall avoid crossing ahead of the other unless passing well clear of it;

(c) a flying machine which is being overtaken shall have the right-of-way, and the overtaking flying machine shall keep out of the way of the other flying machine by altering its course to the left until that other flying machine has been passed and is clear, notwithstanding any change in the relative positions of the two flying machines.



I say again, "in case of danger of collision..."

To ME this means that you follow the clearance until you discover that the clearance is less-than-skillfully-consructed and apt to have you embedded in someone else's airframe in the near future. It says, "In case of danger..." This is the funamental "pilot in command" concept that addresses deviating from an ATC clearance.

What is the alternative? ALWAYS going with the "rules of the road" instead of a clearance? Well, Rule 17 starts out by saying:

Notwithstanding that the flight is being made with air traffic control clearance....

Seems pretty familiar so far...

Then, 17(3) goes on to speak to:

(3) Approaching head-on
When two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so in the air and there is danger of collision, each shall alter its course to the right.


There's that "danger" thing again. It's GOT to mean SOMETHING. Look... assume there are two IFR aircraft at the same altitute converging head-on. The controller tells both of them "turn 10 degrees left for traffic" in time to keep 'em separated. Is the argument here that one or both crews might decide to turn right instead because Rule 17 says they should? This isn't even limited to the UK, becuase the rules apply to: "all aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, wherever they may be." I think perhaps this may be problematic!

So, back to the original issue. Two aircraft on the ground. Controller tells the one which WOULD have the right of way under the rule to stop and then follow the one who would NOT have the right of way under the rule. I'm curious as to how many pilots would disregard the ATC instruction and follow the rule. If it is not exactly 100% or 0% (follow ATC or follow the Rule), airplanes are going to run together on the ground.


Perhaps I should start checking PPrune BEFORE having the wine. That might be easier on everybody...

Have I put my foot in it again?

Dave

[Slim20]

Why bother giving FR pilots taxi speeds? Their ability to count goes "1... 2.... a few.... more than 5....loads."

I think the SOPs require an ASI check during taxi.......

[nana737NG]

I think a lot of you are just jealous they're not flying a nice 738 and being paid (a lot) for doing a nice job. I can count more than just 1,2,3.. and sorry,English is not my native language but I speak 5 languages in total and yes I do fly for Ryanair. I'm proud to work for a company that sets high standards for their pilots. You have always individuals who don't follow the SOP's, but this doesn't mean we're all cowboys. Stop being frustrated! You would better stop your energy in finding a job, instead of writing all this crap about Ryanair.

[crossfeedclosed]

Interesting comments. Again turned into a Ryanair bashing by some, on which I have commented more than once. However, (note the comma!) there is absolutely no doubt that SOME Ryanair pilots do taxy much too quickly and it is only a matter of time before one comes to grief as a result. If one turns in to the stand at 25 - 30 knots as I have seen on more than one occasion, then even bucketloads of reverse won't save you if the brakes quit. The huge majority of Ryanair Captains that I have seen taxy at correct speeds but there are clearly some who demonstrate appalling airmanship in their taxy technique. Do they have any feeling for the aircraft or the passengers? Or is it a sign that the pressure is getting into the cockpit? If so, watch out guys. It's only a short step from there to a bigger mistake which we're all prone to. Any monitoring system should easily pick out the regular offenders. A spell in the RHS for one or two would sort it out very quickly.

[AverageJoe]

Most of the pilots at Ryanair follow the SOPs and I do not know of anyone who intentionally does not follow them. The Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual allows as to to maintain speeds upto 30 Knots. :
737NG Flight Crew Training Manual Chapter 2 page 2.5
"....."Normal taxi speed is approximately 20 Knots, adjusted for conditions. On long straight taxi routes speeds up to 30 knots are acceptable, however at speeds greater than 20 knots use rudder pedal steering only..."
I personally do not taxi that fast, but there have been times at Stansted when ATC has requested me to increse speed during taxi, especially for Runway 05. If someone is landing at that time and has not been on ground frequency they will say surely, look at Ryanair taxiing fast again.
I assure you that the company does provide us and requires to obey the speed limits, max 10 knots in the approns, max 20 knots between the terminals and the fire station, and to this day I do not know of anyone in Stansted been reported for fast taxiing, or in that matter for unsafe or un-comfortable opperations.

[JW411]

I cannot help but think that there are more than a few hypocrites posting on this thread. Can all of you out there put your hands on your hearts and swear that you have never done 40 mph in an urban 30 mph limit? Personally, I doubt if any of you could.

How many hundreds of pedestrians get killed every year because of this? How many passengers have been killed or injured by Ryanair crews taxiing at 30 or even 35 knots?

I am personally not prone to fast taxiing but I have little doubt that I have probably exceeded 30 knots on a long unobstructed taxiway somewhere in the world on more than one occasion and I'll bet a lot of you out there have too. If I had considered it in any way dangerous, I would not have done it!

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Well said Jay Doubleyer.....

and Xfeed says:

If one turns in to the stand at 25 - 30 knots as I have seen on more than one occasion

Had yer speeding gun out did yer? Perhaps a slight exaggeration although if you saw it "more than once" it musta happened.......

Jeez - worlds full of 'em ain't it?

:=

[Bally Heck]

Also came across this thread late.

I can't see how "give way" to could possibly be misinterpreted to mean slip in front of if you think you can.

However......

The Radiotelephony Manual is quite clear about the correct phraseology...

"G-CD follow the Seneca coming from your left taxi to holding position B1 runway 14"

UK ATC is usually pretty hot on correct phraseology. Perhaps room for improvement here until "give way to" is incorprated. Might stop a stupid person having an accident. :sad:

[spekesoftly]

Bally Heck,

Just an observation:-

The term "holding position B1 runway 14" has reverted back to "holding point B1 runway 14".

Please let's keep it that way! ;)

[Bally Heck]

Perhaps so Mr Softly.

And I agree with you. But CAP 413 does not yet reflect that change, so how are we to know? Trawling through 50 pages of pre-flight NOTAMS is unlikely to get the vote. And anyway it's not the point of the thread.

I think "give way" is pretty unambiguous. But english is my first (and only) language.

"Follow the Seneca coming from your left" is even less ambiguous.

QED

[spekesoftly]

Mr Heck

And I agree with you. But CAP 413 does not yet reflect that change, so how are we to know?

See the 'online' copy of CAP 413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf), which does reflect this change (reversion!)

[Bally Heck]

Apologies Mr Softly.

Can't keep up with all the revisions.

However....wot about the "give way to the" versus the "follow the" terminology which is after all the point of the thread? It's even more economical!

[Gonzo]

What about if I didn't want you to follow it? Only give way to it?

Gonzo.