Gliding tips and books...

[El Desperado]

Unfortunately, due to a house move I cannot afford to continue flying light a/c on a regular basis. Assessment of the budget shouted 'gliding' at me... something I've never done before.

I have 3000 hours on heavy jets and am a little worried about taking to the sky in something that requires rudder :) I have already picked my gliding centre and would be very grateful for any pointers to books or web-sites for complete beginners.

I am going to leave my ATPL at home and start as a complete newbie on this.... I'm sure the equivalent of 'effects of controls' might have me nodding off, but I've forgotten more about 'real' flying over the last few years than I ever learned ! No point in going 'blah blah 767 blah blah long-haul' and then looking like a fool ! I appreciate this will be totally different from anything I have ever flown, so I happily relegate myself to the ranks of zero-hour pilots.

Good books worth buying ? Good web-sites to visit ?

Much appreciated.

Cheers.

[Fly Stimulator]

When I learned to fly in gliders a couple of decades ago Derek Piggot was the man who wrote the books you had to have.

I've just done a quick search on Amazon and it looks as if they're still in print in current editions so that could be a reasonable start.

I gave up in the end because it was just too much like fishing; an awful lot of hanging around waiting for all-too-brief bursts of activity.

[treadigraph]

Books by Derek Piggott and Bill Scull are worth looking for.

Good luck with it, it's great fun and I intend to get back into it soon and get significantly further to the solo stage and beyond!

Treadders...

[El Desperado]

Thanks guys - there's more to it than just the flying.... my social life has been in the doldrums since I started flying for the airlines, six or seven years ago - I've finally found a place where I can talk b*****ks with like-minded people, drink a few beers in the evening and fly during the week, between sectors, even if it is just for a few minutes !

Take the missus out for a picnic, meet new people - I have also forgotten how to coordinate rudder with ailerons in turns :) Can't begin to say how much I am looking forward to this !

I've just ordered "Beginning Gliding" (Piggot) and the BGA Manual (special offer on Amazon - thanks gents !), and Steve Longland's 'From Passenger to Pilot', but unfortunately Bill Scull's 'Gliding and Soaring' is out of print.

Cheers

[chrisN]

IMHO the books you have ordered are enough without the Bill Scull one.

For more advanced work, i.e. cross country and competitions, books by Helmut Reichmann (Cross Country Soaring) and George Moffat (Winning on the Wind) are well regarded. These are nothing to do with how to handle the controls - which you will easily adapt to with your experience - but the techniques of finding lift, maximising speed round a task, etc., which are different and specialised skills compared with other sorts of flying.

[MLS-12D]

I agree, Piggot's books are authoritative and reliable, although some of them are a little long in the tooth (best to get the latest editions).

Besides the titles already mentioned, in 1991 Piggot wrote another book called "Gliding Safety" that is worth checking out. It has a chapter in the back on power pilots converting to soaring, which provides several tips that might be helpful.

Thomas L. Knauff is an American soaring authority that is well respected this side of the pond, and he has written a book called
"Transition to Gliders: A Flight Training Handboook For Power Pilots", which I think was originally published in 1984 (2nd edition came out in 1990). You can locate copies on Amazon, or buy direct from the author at http://www.eglider.org/

Finally, the SSA has an interactive CD-ROM for power pilots converting to sailplanes [http://www.ssa.clientreadyweb.com/index.asp?sectionstr=&cat=94931&cartstep=minfo&prodid=478676], but I doubt that you need that unless you really enjoy using computers.

MLS-12D

P.S. You can find a pretty comprehensive list of soaring books at http://w3.gwis.com/~mks/book.htm, but don't worry about running around buying up a huge personal library at this time, you'll be quite all right with one or two books giving you the basics.

[Volume]

The best book on gliding for beginners I´ve ever seen, is the ´Manuel du pilote de vol à voile´ from the french aeroclub (which is in french language, unfortunately)
Auteur : SFACT. 240 p. Format : 21 x 29,7 cm. 10 phases de progression. Questionnaire. Carnet de progression. Carte radio nav. Echantillon. Le tout présenté dans une pochette. 33.00 €

If you have a technical background, this might be a very interesting read :

Fundamentals of Sailplane Design
by Fred Thomas
Foreword by L. M. M. Boermans (President, OSTIV)

ISBN 0-9669553-0-7
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 99-61150
9" x 10.5", 286 pages, hardcover

Contents

Basic Aerodynamics and Flight Mechanics: Fluid dynamics and the sailplane - Airfoil and wing theory - Performance and handling qualities - Aeroelasticity

Design Requirements: Certification requirements - JAR-22 - Cross country theory - Thermal models and climb performance

Sailplane Design Optimization: Basic considerations - Wing design - Variable geometry - Flying wings - The World Class - Fuselage and wing-fuselage transition - Empennage and controls
Determination of Performance and Handling Characteristics: Theoretical methods - Experimental methods

Trends in Sailplane Development: Sailplane class definitions - Early glider designs - Sailplane development to date - Outlook

Appendices: Tabulated design data and three-view drawings - "Zacher" flight test protocol - German-English glossary of technical terms

[engineless john]

"The Glider Pilot's Manual" by Ken Stewart is another good one, I believe. It's the standard ab-initio text book at my club. Never read a copy though.

I've got "Gliding" and "Understanding Flying Weather" by Derek Piggott, both of which are must haves, and the BGA Manual which is more to do with the technicalities of things. Still good though. For more advanced stuff, I've read "The Soaring Pilot's Manual" also by Ken Stewart, which is very good indeed.

As for websites the most important by some way is

http://www.itadvice.co.uk/weatherjack/STARS.htm

Which is Jack Harrison's gliding weather forecasts.

Have fun using your feet.....

Cheers
John

[MLS-12D]

Just my two cents, but if I were you El Desperado I would stay away from the Fred Thomas book for the time being. It is quite technical, and (more to the point) it will not provide you with any information re the practicalities of actually flying gliders.

The titles recommended by engineless john are all good.

[nonrad]

More important than any books is the club you fly from - a fulltime 7 day operation is best, with a good soaring site. Some clubs are in good locations, others get few thermals. Make sure your choice is a good one and the club does a lot of cross country flying; circuits should be what you do at the end of a long flight.

With your experience you should learn quickly, and flying a lot is better than reading a lot.

[El Desperado]

Thanks guys - I'm quite into the technical side of flying, so I may well pick up the Thomas book at a later stage. The aim of reading/self-briefing was to go into this minimising waste of time for myself and my instructor. I know reading doesn't substitute for flight time, but I'm used to getting into the books and learning profiles, drills, etc.

The club I have chosen has superb ridge-soaring... professionally run with a full-time staff, and flies 7 days a week, until the sun goes down. I don't have the luxury of being able to fly every weekend or, say, every Tuesday and a couple of visits have confirmed my choice. They have evening and day courses when the wx is not good enough to fly - I might be able to pitch in and run a radio course, for example, or an air-law evening. This is my idea of a club - I've been to a a fair few powered clubs where the bar is full of people talking out of ermm their behinds, and 'elitist' doesn't even begin to describe the social life. Had enough of that (and, frankly, so has my chequebook !).

I'm starting with a neighbour - he may well go solo before me as I suspect I have a lot of pre-conceived power-flying (and heavy jet) handling to unlearn.

I've ordered 'Flying Weather' as well - all my met texbooks are more about climatology than local conditions for gliding - lots to learn and thank you all for your recommendations.

Regards

[MLS-12D]

http://800soaring.com/book/gliderbook.html

http://www.dpflying.com/

[Genghis the Engineer]

Obvious point, join the BGA and get their magazine.

G

[Skylark4]

DON`T join the BGA unless you particularly want to, your club is all the connection you need to the BGA.
The BGA Magazine is Sailplane and Gliding, always referred to as S & G, and is available on subscription to the BGA, on order from your local newsagents or, at most clubs, on order through the club. In the latter case you get it a few days later than direct from the BGA but the club gets a cut.

By the way El Desperado, I believe you are an imposter. No one with the experience you claim could possibly admit that we madmen who fly without visible means of support, could know anything that you don`t already know, in spades.

Welcome to the best form of flying there is. Juat be prepared to spend a LOT of time on a windy airfield without actually doing any flying. It gets better once you are able to soar fairly reliably and have a share in your own aircraft. It doesn`t have to be a `Hot Ship`. There`s plenty of fun to be had with last years model or, as in my case, one from just over halfway through the last century.

Regards

Mike W

[El Desperado]

Heh... what has 757/767 experience got to do with flying gliders ? Ermm.... effects of controls. That's about all I can think of !

I can assure you that I do what I say I do (one or two moderators on PP can confirm that, having been at GECAT at the same time on (different) Boeing courses, amongst other encounters !..<cough> pub <cough>), but I have enough experience to know I have no business turning up at a gliding club with 'blah blah, 767, and there we were, 45 degrees of bank, throttles at idle' crap I heard at my powered flying clubs.

Self-brief, turn-up, have fun, enjoy the experience and social life...yeah, I know I might not get to do a lot of flying but..hmm.... I'm not about hour building ! I have no doubt whatsoever that I am about to enlarge my flying experience and skills exponentially..... it won't help me with a night VOR into Corfu, but it will help me put some hooligan fun back into flying. I say that in the most professional way, and I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Thanks to all of you who have offered ideas, books, tips.... I hope I can put back into my club some of the airline experience I have, and take away some different experiences and skills.

Can't wait...... must be some genetic defect :)

[Volume]

Heh... what has 757/767 experience got to do with flying gliders ?

If you confuse lb with kg or use the wrong density number to convert mass to volume or vice versa, you might need a lot of gliding experience to land a 767 :D

The Gimli Glider (http://www.cadetworld.com/rgs/story2a.html)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Heh... what has 757/767 experience got to do with flying gliders ?

You didn't learn to fly in a 76 did you? Surely you must have some more glider-relevant flying experience in your logbook, even if it's only C152?

SSD

[El Desperado]

Heh.. obviously the first type in my logbook was a tad smaller than a 767, but it was a long time ago.

You get used to the picture from the cockpit of the aircraft you are current in - the first time I took a PA38 up for a blast after flying jets, resulted in a flare that was so high, the instructor remarked the only person who had flared higher was a 747 captain he had in the previous week !

My own belief is that the last eight years or so of my flying have no real relevance to the world of gliding and it is better for me to approach this from a clean slate point of view. Hence my requests for books, tips, hints, anything I can get my hands on.

There are far too many line pilots in flying clubs who think that their ATPL and jet quals. make them indestructable sky gods in the world of light aviation. 'Tis not the case....

Whilst I don't doubt my own abilities, I also know where I stand when it comes to a form of flying I have never done... bottom rung.

Gimli - lol !

[MLS-12D]

I have known a couple of airline pilots who converted to sailplanes: they were excellent pilots, and their basic flying skills allowed them to pick up gliding very easily.

El Desparado's attitude should allow him to fit into the club easily and without friction ... no one likes a know-all.

[Circuit Basher]

El Desperado - just in case you haven't bought any books yet, there's a copy of 'Gliding' by Derek Piggott for sale on eBay - current asking price £2. Check eBay Link to Derek Piggott book (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2517293629&category=) for details.

PS All you lurkers out there - leave it for El D 'coz he's got first shout! :)

PPS This has nothing to do with the fact that I was shopping for a Flaglor Sky Scooter! :D

[astir 8]

I've flown a few experienced power pilots in gliders (including some with a lot of "heavy" experience.

Things they do

a) Fail to lookout, especially before turning
I know you can't see much out of a 767 but its a capital crime in gliding.

b) Not using the rudder - you'll get used to rudder inputs because the adverse yaw can be chronic.
Lookout is much easier to forget - and much more dangerous.

c) Turning up late, flying and fxxxxxxg off immediately afterwards.
Gliding's a group operation but some club members don't seem to realise it!
In some of the big clubs you can't even get someone to help rig your glider, never mind fetch you when you end up in a field!

But you'll get used to it. Welcome to gliding!

:D

[MLS-12D]

Here is an interesting article that supports El Desperado's low-key approach to conversion training: http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182400-1.html

[chrisN]

I was involved in reviewing UK glider fatal accident reports during one of our worst years when there were about 6 fatalities, and in almost every case that year there was a conversion involved. Most were conversions from SEP (not heavy metal) to gliding, one was from hang gliding, at least one involved both type and launch method conversion in the same flight, and one involved conversion from male to female. It was an exceptional year in that regard - conversions have not been a prominent fasctor in fatal accidents since then.

In most cases that year the conversion factor was suspected of being significant but could not be proved. There have, however, been enough survivable accidents of all sorts, including that referenced by MLS, to show that conversions are a trap for the unwary.

I think El D's attitude is just right, and I hope he works with instructors who are experienced in and good at such conversions.

The conversion part is just the start - getting to handle the machine right and adjusting to the airmanship requirements where they differ from power/heavy practice. Beyond that, though, soaring is a mental exercise, whereby handling the machine is just the output stage of sky and task assessment and decision making. That is a whole different ballgame from any form of power flying, I believe, and is the subject of the "advanced" books that I mentioned earlier.

[Circuit Basher]

(Old thread resurrection time) ;)

If there's anyone still interested, there's another copy of the Derek Piggott book 'Understanding Gliding' for sale on EBay at the moment (auction closes in just over a day). Current price is £1.50, so may be enough in the piggy bank for that!!

EBay Auction - Understanding Gliding (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2928692580&category=2979)

[Mike Cross]

Friend of mine retired as a TriStar Training Captain with BA, got well hooked on gliding and went on to do far more than I ever did, so you are in good company.

One of my memories is of being barefoot at the launch point in the summer and having to walk on the white lines because the bare tarmac was too hot.

Throughly endorse the Derek Piggott recommendations. "Gliding - A Handbook on Soaring Flight" by him was my bible.

Mike