PDA

View Full Version : UK Permit to Fly / France


SATCO Biggin
3rd Mar 2003, 10:53
This has probably been asked before but I keep coming up with blank results.

My aircraft has a UK Permit to Fly which only allows it to operate within UK airspace. Does anyone have a contact name/number/ E mail etc in order to request overflight clearance of French airspace.

Regards


TMC

:confused:

Ludwig
3rd Mar 2003, 11:05
s far as I know, there is a general agreement negotiated by the PFA for UK permit a/c to fly to France without further permission. This below from the PFA website:

FRANCE

DGAC. SFACT
50 rue Henri Farman, 75720 Paris, Cedex 15, France
Tel: 0033 158094504
Fax: 0033 158094017
E-mail: [email protected]

It used to be that special permission was required before flying a Permit aircraft in France. However, during 2001 negotiation resulted in success when the DGAC published a ‘standing permission’ known as the Ministerial Decree of 22nd May 2001. This Decree provides permission for all PFA
Permit to Fly aircraft to visit or overfly France without the need to obtain any special permission. The text is produced below and it would be a good idea for owners to carry a copy of this permission when flying their PFA aircraft in France. Despite the fact that the permission seems to apply specifically to amateur built aircraft, the DGAC has assured PFA that it in fact covers all PFA aircraft, including ‘vintage’ factory builts, such as Piper Cubs, Luscombes, Jodels etc and of course microlights.

FRENCH REPUBLIC
MINISTRY OF PLANNING, TRANSPORT AND HOUSING
NOR: EQU/A 01 0/0/7/7/7/A
Ruling dated 22 MAY 2001 on the overflying of French territory by amateur-built aircraft registered in the United Kingdom
The minister of planning, transport and housing,
Whereas the convention on international civil aviation dated 7 November 1944, all the protocols having amended it, particularly the protocol dated 24 September 1968 concerning the formally approved trilingual text of the convention on international civil aviation; Whereas the civil aviation code, notably article D.133-20; Whereas recommendation INT/S-11.1 of the European conference on civil aviation; Whereas regulations reference CAP 659 and BCAR A3-7 in force in the United Kingdom for the issuing of airworthiness documents for aircraft built by amateurs,

Rules:

Article 1 – Amateur-built aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and having, under the terms of the above-mentioned regulations, an airworthiness document entitled “permit to fly”, accompanied by a certificate of validity issued by the body called “The Popular Flying Association”, are authorised to
overfly French territory without prior agreement being given by the French airworthiness departments.

Article 2 – Aircraft whose airworthiness documents carry the wording “temporary permit to fly” or “permit to fly for test” are excluded from the provisions of the present ruling.

Article 3 – The Director General of civil aviation is tasked with implementing the present ruling, which will be published in the Journal Officiel de la Republique Francaise*.
Done in Paris on 22 MAY 2001
For the Minister and by delegation Due to the indisposition of the Director General
The minister of planning, The Head of Department transport and housing (Signed)
Attached to the Director-General of Civil Aviation Jean-Francois GRASSINEAU

Official Gazette of the French Republic

Hope that helps.:)

SATCO Biggin
3rd Mar 2003, 11:38
Thanks for the reply Ludwig.....

Unfortunately my aircraft is a Yak 52 so is not of amateur build, but it might qualify as a 'vintage' build (although it is not strictly vintage either).

Also I believe there have been some problems recently with other Yaks based in France.

Guess I will have to contact DGAC to see what is possible.

Regards

TMC

SATCO Biggin
4th Apr 2003, 23:32
As a follow up to this elderly posting.........

A member of our Yak group tried to contact the suggested person at DGAC without success.

Another contact name was later offered and a request to operate the Yak 52 on a weekend trip to Le Touquet was submitted by Fax giving two weeks notice.

Nothing was heard back so the trip never took place. Today, however, several weeks after the request was sent, we have got a reply !!

The bad news is that this states that Yak 50/52 aircraft are only allowed to operate in France for maintenance purposes, and then only until the end of September 2003. After that date there is no provision for these aircraft operate in French airspace at all !!

I wonder what legal grounds the DGAC are using to support this action?

Regards

TMC

ACX
5th Apr 2003, 01:28
Unfortunatly, the French like the CAA can do what they like with the Yak. It does not qualify for a full C of A, thus it can only fly on a Permit at the descretion of the controlling authority.

As you state a Permit is only valid in the UK and the French like any other country do not have to let you in. I have heard they have banned all Warbirds! not just the Yak, but I have not seen this confirmed anywhere. At least the CAA do, normally, let foreign aircraft visit the UK, but I think they may be limited to one month though.

A C & X

Keef
5th Apr 2003, 07:16
I contacted DGAC, and got a reply. It's not to hand, but the response was roughly that PFA Permit aircraft can fly in France with no further ado (but take a copy of that decree). Yaks CANNOT. Very specifically cannot.

The reasons are similar to the ones that led to the CAA grounding all Yaks in the UK for a while.

Whether it will change in the months to come remains to be seen. The DGAC is not under any obligation to allow Yaks to fly in France.

SATCO Biggin
5th Apr 2003, 20:26
Al least the CAA's attitude was more realistic.

Although the Yak 52 does not possess a civillian 'Type Certificate' and accordingly could not qualify for a full C of A under ICAO rules, they did hand out exemptions from grounding whilst we queued up at the maintenance facilities to get our Permit to Fly.

The French method of saying 'non' to everything including those Yaks owned/based in France seems more than a bit un-reasonable. Why cant French based Yaks obtain a French version of the 'Permit to Fly', they must have such a thing for their homebuilts and warbirds. When I attended the 'Sport Plane' fly in at Le Touquet last September there was a large contingent of French registered ex military hardware.

Oh well.....looks like I wont be spending any Euro's in France this year.

Regards

TMC (who do I write to to get permission to fly to Belgium?)

six-sixty
13th Jul 2005, 13:12
Hi there, bit of an old thread I know, I'm going to contact DGAC ayway but does anyone know what the current situation regarding visiting France in G-registered Yak 52's is? I had heard rumours that Yaks were ok again in France but that may have been just the 50.

regards, SS

Genghis the Engineer
13th Jul 2005, 13:35
PFA's fundi on the subject is Ken Craigie, who works out of PFA HQ at Turweston. I'd send him an Email and see if he can offer any advice, he's pretty helpful - presumably you're a PFA member even if the aeroplane isn't.

G

Mike Cross
13th Jul 2005, 15:03
Don't hold your breath. PFA's email system was knocked out recently by lightning. This message dated yesterday from their website:-We now have internet connection but our e-mail service is still down. We hope to be up and running again by Thursday at the latest. Please note that all e-mails sent will have been lost and we apologise for the inconveniece this is causing

I doubt that it's the right route anyway. AFIK PFA do not administer the Permits for Yak52. They are likely to be CAA Permits rather than PFA ones.

Genghis the Engineer
13th Jul 2005, 15:09
No they don't, but they did do a big thing on behalf of their membership generally a few years ago, and contacted all of the nearby countries and asked about flying there in assorted permit aeroplanes. Ken was in the lead on that.

Looks like the phone might be the best bet then!

G

yakker
13th Jul 2005, 15:23
I would speak to Richard Goode, he seems to know most things regarding Yak's, and he does sell to France.
01544-340120

trevs99uk
13th Jul 2005, 17:15
When in L2k a few weeks back i noted a RA- registered yak 52 in the hangar, the owner came over and spoke to me, i asked him about the problem with Yak52,s in France to which he said this issue was now resolved and Yak52,s had been cleared to fly in france.
Also noted a few Yak52 in the static at the Paris airshow.


rgds trevor.

SATCO Biggin
14th Jul 2005, 08:18
I also understand the problem to have been resolved, but as with any 'Permit' aircraft operating outside of its country of registry, we need to apply for overflight permission.

We do not have the benefit of the PFA standing agreement.

six-sixty
14th Jul 2005, 12:47
okeydoke food for thought thanks everyone.

If anyone has an email address which might go to the appropriate person at DGAC I'd be much obliged,

regards,
SS