Turbulents

[Tiger_ Moth]

I saw an add for a turbulent in pilot magazine for under £4000 and just wondered how that could be. It says it has a new permit. Just got me thinking how feasible it might be to own and operate one of those in the future so I've compiled this list of questions:
1:Turbulent: cruising speed?
2:Turbulent: aerobatic?
3:Turbulent: easy to fly/handling?
4:Turbulent: endurance?
5:Is insurance compulsory, if so how much per annum, rough estimate?
6:Roughly how much might fuel cost per hour?
7:Roughly how much might hangarage cost per year or month or whatever?
8:Hangarage available at White Waltham or any other west London aerodrome?
9:How much might maintenance cost and how often is it required?
10:Any other hidden costs of aeroplane ownership?
11:Is any plane costing under £4000 going to be falling to pieces?

Because it occured to me that this would be an extremely cheap way of ammasing lots of flying time while doing it in what seems to be a nice, open cockpit tailwheel plane.
Thanks to anyone who can answere a fraction of these questions.

[AerBabe]

Get yourself a copy of Pilot, Feb 2003. There's a nice article in there.
You could also give the Tiger Club at Headcorn a ring and look at their website (http://www.tigerclub.co.uk/turb.htm). That will answer many of your questions.

[LowNSlow]

Tiger_Moth nice to see somebody taking the commonsense approach to hour building :D

As AerBabe says, read the Pilot article and visit the Tiger Club website.

As I understand it, not having flown one myself,

1. 60-65 knots
2. No
3. Light & nicely co-ordinated
4. 1 1/2 hours or so??
5. Not compulsory but recommended and around 500 quid per annum
6. 2.5 - 3 gph at around 4.50 / gallon
7. Anything up to 250 quid a month depending on location
8. There's a spot in Rush Green (Luton) for less than 7. above
9. Routine maintenance depends if you do it yourself. The Annual inspection will cost you a minimum of 500.
10. Lots.
11. If it's a Cessna 150 yes a Turbulent no but I would imagine (I don't know the specific aircraft) that it would be solid but not necessarily a concours d'elegance winner for the price

PS If you're over 6' tall expect to get bugs in your teeth!!!

[FNG]

I think that there might be a share in one at Waltham, though it may have been sold by now. More expensively, there's a share in a Bucker Jungmann going at Waltham at present, but it's more like 10K.

[FlyingForFun]

FNG,

Are you sure? Haven't seen the Turbulent at Waltham for a few months now - I'd assumed it had been re-located.

It is, without any doubt, one of the nicest looking aircraft ever built, and I have every intention of getting down to the Tiger Club at some point to try one out.

The only problem is, being a single-seater (i.e. no dual possible) tail-dragger, if you have little or no tail-wheel time you will find insurance a problem. Not absolutely necessary, of course, but I think you'd be pretty stupid to want to fly something you couldn't get insured on. Doubt that would be a problem for Tiger_Moth, though.

FFF
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[Tiger_ Moth]

Wow! I can't believe I could actually buy a plane in theory.
However I don't know if I could handle the insurance, penniless chap that I am. Does insurance work against you if you are inexperienced like it would against a young driver or would my Tiger Moth experience stand me in good sted?
Fuel at £9- £13.5 an hour! I could go down there on a nice day and just fly all day long.
Main downside seems to be hangarage which could be too costly. Up to £250? Does that mean there are some places for around £100? Luton is too far away, it has to be within a bike ride, yeah a BIKE ride, maybe a motor bike if I'm lucky of where I live near Heathrow. So White Waltham/Booker seem well placed.

FNG, you have a plane at Waltham don't you? How much is hangarage?

By the way do all of these airfields have landing fees, if so how much, £5?

By the way, some other questions about turbulents:
1:It has a stick doesn't it?
2:Does it not have a trimmer? In my book the Tiger Club Lewis Benjamin says it doesn't but that was in 1955 or something.
3:Does the propeller need swung or does it have a starter?
4:Do they have radios or does it vary from plane to plane?
5:I know nothing about maintenance. Is there anywhere I could go to learn about light aircraft maintenance so that I could legally perform the annual inspection myself? Or would this be too costly/time consuming?
6: Is all that's required (assuming nothing breaks/goes wrong) the annual inspection or do you need inspections after so many hours flying in it, ie 50, 100 hour checks?

I won't finish my license until the summer at least so has anyone got any ideas of where I could store the plane cheaply, ie not forking out £250 a month having it at an airfield when I can't even fly it?

Thanks for your answers, I'll go and research all this a bit more now.

[Kingy]

TM,

There's a whole world of fun available for under £4k. What you generally get is a wooden homebuilt (not kit built) PFA single seater with a Veedub engine.

We're talking VP1s, Luton Minors and maybe FREDs for this kinda money - some are less!.. jolly fun they are too.

Turbs, Jodel D9's and Taylor Mono's go for a bit more.. £4-6K, so the Turb at £4k is quite cheap.

I have a 1/3 share in a FRED. Purchase price was £2.5K so my share came in at the princely sum of £833. For that we got a beautifully built airframe and a virtually new engine but with a cracked crankcase. We have just finished the repairs (which cost £200) so she is ready to go - and people think microlighting is cheap!

You would need some tailwheel time for these types, there will be no POH and control forces will feel very light.

If you have any interest in this kind of flying you really need to be in the PFA. Membership is £40ish but you get a by monthly mag 'Popular Flying' in which nearly all such aircraft are advertised.

Have Fun

Kingy

[stiknruda]

www.pfa.org.uk

although "amatuer" built, many are far more advanced than the offerings from manufacturers

Stik

[Tiger_ Moth]

Hmmm .... if after getting the plane I had a budget of roughly £2000 or perhaps up to £3500 a year (I'm in a gap year now but next year I'll be a full time student) do you think that would cover hangarage, maintenance etc and still leave me with enough money to fly it? Also what is the difference between hangarage and parking, is parking just when you're allowed to leave your plane out in the open? Or am I drifting into fantasy with ideas of owning my own plane?

By the way I don't know why there are smiley faces on my previous post.

[Croqueteer]

My inspector charges me £60 for the annual on my Jodel. I think about £100 would be much closer than £500.

[Evo]

By the way I don't know why there are smiley faces on my previous post.


Because you left out the space between ':' and 'D'?

: D is OK, but without the space it is :D

:D

;)

[formationfoto]

Tiger
Haven't had the chance to drive a Turb yet but Nick Bloom at PILOT tells me it is a fun machine and a good aircraft for someone who wants to fly for the joy of flying. Actual operating costs are going to be cheap for this sort of a/c but sadly hangarage or parking costs don't take inot account the price of the aircraft so expect to pay the same as for any light single. One option though is to try and find a friendly small grass strip (AKA a farm strip). You don't need many facilities and this sort of location is great for an a/c like this.

In this case the price really indicates cheap flying rather than nasty aircraft.

Low hours with limited taildragger experience will count against you for insurance but if you go for third party only you should get something within the budget you suggest. Given that this is a fixed cost why not try and find one other to share with? all fixed costs then magically halved.

[Skylark4]

Tiger Moth, you really must get in touch with someone in the PFA who will teach you some of the REAL facts of life. I really cant imagine how you, and many others like you, can be in aviation for so long without finding out about the PFA. Does your flying School / Club / Instructor deliberately misdirect you so that you never hear about it?

Don`t think about owning your own aircraft. Think about owning a share in an aircraft. With a group up to about six people there is not too much problem about whose turn it is. Gliders you don`t want more than three as you tend to fly for longer in a glider(on a good day)(if its your turn)(if you are good enough)(if your wife hasn`t arranged for you to visit dear old Auntie Bertha)(if the winch is working)( if the RAF hasn`t decided that it may want to drop paratroops)(if you aren`t suffering from Motezumas Revenge)

Once you have your licence flying can be cheap, as long as you don`t insist on fast and furious aircraft and you share. I own one third of a Skylark 4 Glider and one sixth of an Ogar Motor Glider. Total value- about £3 - 4000. Forget the fancy cars too ( I know you havent got one) I have just bought a new car. It has 115000 miles on the clock and cost less than what my Son-in-Law paid for a service on his Porsche.

Finally, single seaters are a third of the price of two seaters and can fly well on the limited power of a VW derived engine.

Mike W

[FNG]

T-M, FFF may be right and the Turby may have gone from Waltham, but there is a share in a Condor for sale there at about £1250. I can PM or e-mail you the details if you like. I do not know anything of the particular aeroplane in question, but a Condor has the sociable advantage of two seats. It has a stick, and is said by everyone I know who has flown one to handle very pleasantly. It is not aerobatic. You will have seen the Condor moments thread in the History and Nostalgia forum.

I would be inclined to agree that, initially at any rate, owning a share in an economic PFA machine would be a good idea. Outright ownership is tempting, but a good group may lead to a better utilised aircraft, with more people ready to deal with problems as they arise. You obviously need to feel comfortable with the other group members. You need to be sure that they have a good attititude to aircraft maintenance, flight safety, money and risk. A group with an instructor member is a bonus (in my group I am outnumbered by instructors two to one) .

PFA aircraft can be looked after by suitably skilled owners under the supervision of the PFA engineers. You probably already know whether you have an aptitude for spannner work. You would need to undertake some instruction in maintenance. Yuk, probably better to get help.

Your suggested annual budget of £2000 to £3000 sounds realistic for this type of aircraft. Hangarage at Waltham costs ££££ and is hard to come by (I don't know the exact numbers as I just pay my money to the group kitty and don't bother with the breakdown). Getting into a group that has hangarage already is well worth it. If you are going to be gap-yearing or studying in or near London, Waltham is probably the best bet for the sort of flying you are interested in (but mainly through the private owners on the field, not the club). Factor in £255 to join WLAC. Landings are fee for based aircraft, £5 for members if not based there, £15 (I think) for visitors.

Insurance need not be a huge issue if you talk to the right people, or get an instructor who knows you to do so. The fact that you will have obtained your PPL on a Tiger Moth ought to reassure a sensible broker. Best of luck in finishing the course. Tell us how you get on.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Thanks everyone for your useful posts.
I've decided after a careful evaluation of my finances that Turbulent ownership, although possible would be cutting it too tight right now. It would be better to get my license first as although i hope to get it this summer the weather could go against me. I just got so excited when I saw a fun aeroplane so cheap but at least now i'm more aware that there are good cheap planes out there.
I think what has also become apparent is that a share in a small group would be better for me because of cost but also quite importantly, to have the experience of people who have owned planes and know about dealing with maintenance etc.
Skylark I haven't been in aviation long, only about 1.5 years but I do know what the PFA is. If I did go looking for a share seems like membership might be a good idea.
FNG, that condor looks like a decent plane and 2 seats is definetely a big advantage but I tend towards tandem open cockpit planes. Maybe I could look into a turbi, the sort of two seat version of the turbulent.
For now I'll get on with the PPL but at least I'm more aware of "the budget aeroplane market".

[LowNSlow]

Tiger_Moth you'll be lucky to get a Turbi as there are very few on the British register. There are also a few Speitzer Tuholers (yes really) which are tandem open cockpit two seaters on the reg but be careful, one of them is reputed to be so overweight that a slightly leass than "svelte" 15 stone bod like myself couldn't realistically fly it with an adult in the passenger seat and fuel in the tank :eek:

It might help if you can identify potential hangar spaces as it might influence your choice of aircraft; ie a low wing Turb fits nicely in amongst high winged Cessnas and a high winged FRED will overlap low winged Pipers thus minimising the already smallish space required ;)

It's a good idea to concentrate your cash on your PPL first of all. No good having a dinky little Turb burning up your money before you can drive it ;) Don't rush into getting an aeroplane. Car buying rules apply to aeroplanes as well:

1/ Don't buy the first one you see (unless it's virtually unique and/or it passes inspection by an independent set of eyes.

2/ Always test fly more than one of the same type if at all possible. Easier to do for common types obviously.

3/ Offer to pay for at least the fuel used during the test flight. It's amazing the amount of people who amass types by pretending to want to buy one and fly for nothing :*

4/ Get friendly with your local PFA inspector and / or tame engineer (they may be one and the same) and get him/her to check our your prospective purchase first. This may cost you 100 or so squidlets but it could save you from buying a dog. Don't forget that there are unscrupulous aeroplane sellers out there. Not many but enough to be wary of :(

[Kingy]

L 'n' S

Spezio DAL1 Tuholer: Don't talk about my aircraft like that! There were two, G-NGRM and ours G-NOBI. Sadly 'RM crashed in France after an engine failure, so 'NI is now the only one in the UK. You are right - she is quite heavy. The PFA has approved a gross increase to allow a more reasonable load. We recon the front cockpit is so small that the inability to carry a 6ft man is a moot point!

She's been out of action for a couple of years following an undercarriage rebuild - it just needs screwing back together and we're hoping to have it ready for the PFA rally.

Unusually she has a C-125 6cyl engine. It sounds gorgeous and it looks like a 1930's pylon racer in her splendid red and white colour scheme.

We're not sure if we'll keep her, as Eastbach is a little marginal for the airplane.

Cheers

Kingy

[LowNSlow]

Kingy no offence intended, just pointing out that it pays to investigate any prospective purchase to ensure it meets their requirements. ;) From distant (and often incorrect memory) I think it was the unfortunate RM that I was referring to after talking to a guy who had signed off a Permit renewal on it a few years previously.

I did think about getting a Tuholer but decided that the side by side seating of an Auster was better for taking my 4 (now 5) year old flying. Also, the weight was obviously an issue for my chunky salad dodging self :eek:

[QNH 1013]

Hi T M,
You've been given some good advice here and I too recommend the following route:
1. Get Licence
2. Join PFA to get a feel for what PFA flying is all about.
3. Join a group
4. If you still wish, buy your own aircraft.

Joining a group will give you both the ability to fly for a fraction of the hiring cost plus you will learn much of the ins and outs of operating an aircraft.

Not all groups will take new PPLs, but some will. Our group sometimes even has students in it. I think the insurers wanted a small addition to the premium when one low-time member joined but he paid that directly to the insurance company and it wasn't a lot of money. Many of our members have had less than 100 hours total time when they joined the group.

Our group of six share a Jodel D112 which is a two-seat wood and fabric aircraft with a cruise speed of 80 kts. It handles much better that a Tiger Moth, plus you don't get rained-on. We each pay £37 per month which covers all the fixed costs, hangarage, insurance permit etc, and then pay £6 per hour from take-off to landing (yes six pounds!) to fly the aircraft. We each buy our own Avgas and leave the tank full for the next member. So the total cost is about £23 per hour airbourne. Take a friend and cost share and thats under £12 per hour.

I'll probably fly this aircraft into Turweston for the fly-in on Sunday 16th so if you're there you can ask me more about it.

[Kingy]

L 'n' S

No offence taken mate, as a 14 1/2 stone chunker I'm in the same boat and that's after dieting for 6weeks in anticipation of the FRED being done - Oh the things we do for this flying lark...! :D

Kingy