Hows Private flying in Europe?

[ArcherII]

I'm currently studying and training in the US for FAA PPL and IR.

I would like to one day get my JAA PPL/IR...and if I go pro, get all my JAA/FAA licences in Florida.

I was wondering about Private flying in GA aircraft in Europe.

In the US it's petty common, and cheap to fly around in Pipers and Cessnas (the piston kind, not Citations ;))

How is it in Europe?

And how do the language/culture barriers affect aviation?

I heard that most people talk english, but in some small airfields, they'll talk to you in their local language, and you got to know it to land there!

Especially from an IFR perspective, where there are strict rules and regulations and radio comm phraseology and terminology...

any of you fly IFR from the UK to say Italy or France?

Hows the transition from UK airspace to French, then Italian...or German...

?

The US is big, and it's all the same IFR rules and radio phraseology and everybody knows what the other guy is saying (usually)

Well...I would be interested in hearing about it...

thanx

Archer

[bluskis]

You have highlighted a lot of the additional complications of flying in Europe compared to the states.

Others are customs and imigration procedures, particularly if you hold a non EC passport.

Cash. Its not cheap to fly in Europe.

Weather is in general more changeable and more localised, but without some of the extremes you get in the states.

Radio terminology is different, some of which you will probably have covered if you do a JAA licence.

Flight rules change from country to country, not just culture and language.

Cash again. Europe has 5 or 6 different currencies, and some airfields require payment for landings and fuel in their cash, not plastic.

I am sure there is a lot more to add.

[GroundBound]

Well, we shouldn't be too pessimistic ;)

Europe is based on ICAO, and generally the rules and regulations are more or less the same. Although there are indeed some differences, they shouldn't be a problem.

If you are flying IFR (I assume you mean Instrument Rated), then you should have no trouble. All agencies you talk to should be able to converse in English - although the quality (and accents) may vary considerably. How do you suppose the big boys who fly IFR all the time, manage?

In accordance with ICAO, the national rules require all controllers to be able to speak English. The R/T is standard ICAO. However, at small local airfields (particularly France), this is not always adhered to - but that will never be within controlled airspace.

Weather is indeed variable, depends where you go, although if you are IFR this should be less of a problem. If you are flying VFR, then you do have to plan carefully - you can get stuck in a place for days, waiting for the "clag" to lift.

It ain't nearly as cheap as in the States. Hiring a C172/PA28 for an hour is about 130 USD. It does vary from country to country, so you can add/subtract 15% of that depending where you are.

Currencies: the Euro is now in use in 12 European countries (Ireland, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Finlnd and Greece). However, not the UK. So you can use one currency for most of Europe but you will have to use Sterling for the UK. The Euro is more or less equal to 1 USD, at the moment.

Most of the European countries which form the European Union, have an agreement (called the Shengan agreement), whereby the customs and border requirements have been eased (i.e. free movement between countries). However, the UK is not one of them!

Cross border flying is no problem - you will have to file a flight plan though (if IFR, no problem).

If you can, go to the navigation office of a large airport and flip through the AIPs for several countries - terribly boring, but it should help :cool:

[bluskis]

Currencies: Belgium and others use the euro
UK uses Sterling
Channel islands use their own version of sterling
Switzerland uses Swiss francs
Norway uses the Norwegian Krone
Sweden uses the Swedish krone
Denmark uses the Danish krone ( I think)

Its another indicator of each countries' history and
culture.

Passports: France I believe has withdrawn temporarly from Shengen, and has a particularly rigourous procedure for GA arrivals and departures. There is also a strict limit on the amount of currency you are allowed to have in your posession.

I am told fuel in Italy can be a problem to obtain at many airfields.

Aircraft documentation and insurance certificates, 'sales tax' paid proof and German noise certificates are all required. Special translations of insurance certificates are required for flight in Spain.

Nothing in all this should put you off your ambition, but to avoid frustration and disapointment plan well ahead and do not expect it to be a breeze.

[Fly Stimulator]

France ... has a particularly rigourous procedure for GA arrivals and departures.

You are talking about the France which is just south of England I assume? :confused:

The one where I've been asked for my passport twice in the last dozen visits by air? The one where I've never been asked for aircraft documentation at all? I always carry it all, and fascinating reading it is too, what with all the nice CAA stamps and everything, but so far I've yet to find a Gendarme who was bored enough to want to read it.

I haven't entered France through very many airfields yet, but so far none of Cherbourg, Troyes, Deauville or Le Touquet could be accused of anything approaching rigour. A flight plan seems to be about the only thing that anyone is really bothered about for 90% of the time.

[bluskis]

If you stray as far as Rennes, Toulouse, Chambery you may find things more formal. Likewise Dinard until a recent improvement due to the good offices of AOPA France.

[Fly Stimulator]

bluskis,

Sounds as if you may have had some interesting experiences in France - could you elaborate on what sort of formalities you have run up against?

I clear customs at the northern airfields and then continue on free from further bureaucratic constraints. I've never had any interest from officials further south either, though most of the places I've been are small fields like La Baule, Habsheim etc. La Rochelle is the only one of any size, but that too seemed very laid back.

[gasax]

Most of the time flying in France is so carefree you never want to go home but...

They have a branch of the police who tour around the airfields (in their own TB20s!!) and enforce the rules, naturally mainly on foreign pilots, because what is interdict for us is not usually interdict for them!

So long as your paperwork is squeaky clean they are fairly easy to deal with (only in French naturally!). However if there is anything wrong, your experiences with theFReanch judicial system are just starting.

I've bumped into those flying Gendarmes only twice - I guess they aren't many of them, but they take no prisoners.

[CBG]

Them flying Gendarmes and customs people will have a go at foreign based pilots as well as French based ones - they need to justify their existence. I am a French based, French pilot flying....on a UK CAA PPL. I have had to show them my ID and other documents only twice but I did have to teach them a bit of French law, reminding them that any pilot with a licence issued by an EEC country can fly French reg. aicrafts.

Another interesting one happened in Dinard where they would not let me go to the loo in the terminal because I did not have my passport (I had flown from down the road!).

In general, France is a hassle free place to fly.

[bluskis]

As CBG and gasax have said flying in France is mostly hassle free, but this thread was questioning from the States what differences are to be anticipated in Europe. It is better to be aware of the differences than come across them in a foreign language for the first time.

I have been held on the ground for 4 hours because the two hour French lunch meant I could not file until the end of their lunch, and they insisted on 4 hours prior for crossing the border.

I have had to wait for half hour while a security official has been brought from the passenger terminal to the GA terminal so he could wave a metal detector over me and look in my flight bag before I could go out to my aircraft.

I have been unable to leave the apron having just taxied to park under tower control, to find all doors locked, and on trying tower on the radio, finding they are now at lunch.

I have gone to meteo, then tried to reaccess the apron to continue a French domestic flight, only to find the doors are one way , and there is no way to the apron except through the passenger terminal, where a gendarme refused to let me out until he had not only inspected my passport, but also every page of my licence in detail, and queried the date of the medical at length thinking date of issue as date of expiry. On this occasion there was actually no reason to have taken my passport and licence with me, but luckiy I had my flight bag with me. That at least allowed me out onto the tarmac so I could retrieve the aircraft docs he demanded I present for his examination.

All these at different airports. None of which are welcome delays just before a flight.

Others experienced the Dinard problems.

I still fly in France, but expect the unexpected.