Learning to fly with a 'new' flying school

[dannyweaver]

There's this new flying school (based in Czech Republic) called Cloud Nine Aviation and their promising low cost training, etc, etc.. But has anyone got any concerns about learning to fly with a newly established school- are there any extra risks?

Their site doesn't appear to be working at the minute, but I did manage to get onto it at one point. Very flashy and impressive, but a distinct lack of info on prices/facilities/etc.. They later emailed me some prices- for about what it would cost over here, they include accom., food....

Any thoughts?

[Raz]

Hi danny

I'm about to start down the modular route, and am thinking of kick starting my training by doing my ppl abroad. Like to share prices and any other info you have about them pls. Thx.

[Aviation Trainer too]

There is no such thing as low cost flight training... ;)

Be careful that it is JAA certified (check on WWW.JAA.NL ) and that you NEVER pay in advance.

If you want cheaper PPL like training try some trusted names in the States and check them out on Pprune first!!

[captain Keeley]

Ive just been out to Czech to take a look at there set up, was there on business so thought i'd bob in.

Good set up, met some of the team they have, some very experienced in the industry.

My brother is starting the modular with them, looked everywhere
and wouldn't touch some!!! UK FTO's loosing contracts and in big trouble.

They have a professional approach, small but right attitude.

I've got some info about them if anyone's interested.
:O

[Avadoo]

Danny,

As I understand it Cloud Nine are an English managed school.
(Yorkshire immigrants would choose a country @ 19p/pint!!)

Their head of training would not be described as 'new'
(sorry AW).

But seriously, I will be keeping my eye on them--possible IR
this summer-- I hope it works out to all our advantage, good
luck to them I'm sure their school will soar in
the ratings (sorry again AW)- given the chance.


Captain K your post does appear rather biased--hmm




Avadoo

[captain Keeley]

Avadoo
From Yorkshire, would have to be!
Seriously I've looked around for my bro, went to a couple of FTO's myself a few years ago and have lots of friends from various, bad rumours going around at the moment about one biggy!!!

;)

[Biggly]

If you are looking for a low cost PPL, I chose Algoa in Port Elizabeth in South Africa in November 2002.
Under £2000 for 45 hours was about the best I could find - I have since found many other great reasons:
- I learnt to cope with windy conditions
- International Controlled airport so build radio confidence
- Very friendly (non profit) club
- Thorough course
- Game parks nearby
- Lots of aeroplanes and instructors - I passed my PPL in under 4 weeks and 48 hours.
- Don't have to convert to fly in UK


http://www.algoafc.co.za/


Hope this helps...

[dannyweaver]

This is the info they sent me via email about prices and courses:


The first start date for the CPL/IR is Monday 31st March.

The combined CPL/Multi Engine Class Rating is £4,995, including full board accommodation for 4 weeks and your CPL test fee, return flight to Prague, landing fees and aircraft hire for the test.

The Instrument Rating is £9,995 again including full board accommodation for 8 weeks and your first attempt at your IRT, landing fees and aircraft hire for the test.

MCC will be conducted on an FNPT 11 and including 2 weeks full board accommodation will cost £1,495.

Aviation Trainer too:

There is no such thing as low cost flight training...

Cheapest I've seen, when you take into account costs of accommodation and so on! But I guess the price isn't everything....

[Irv]

Clarification please:

Are the issuing JAA licences? or Czech PPLs, CPLs, I/Rs, etc - or what?

[dannyweaver]

Hello Irv- According to their adverts in FLYER.:D over the past few months, they are 'fully JAA approved'

[Irv]

dw:
According to their adverts in FLYER. over the past few months, they are 'fully JAA approved'

(Sorry, my crystal ball was radiatingly fogged!:D )

The advert I saw today for a Czech school didn't say 'fully JAA approved' .. not got it to hand and can't find it in 2 previous mags but the advert I saw had some strange phrase - was it "JAR qualified"? Anyway whatever it was, and whatever advert you are looking at, if you are interested, you NEED to ask and know the answer to what sort of licence or ratings you will end up with.

It's certainly not clear to me from the advert I read that you will get JAA qualifications without doing a foreign-ICAO conversion elsewhere afterwards. (This doesn't mean the place in the advert I saw doesn't get you a JAA licence, I'm just saying if it is for JAA qualifications, it needs some help with its advert!). I personally would at first assume from the wording I saw that it would be a Czech licence.

In one sense it doesn't matter whether it is a JAA or Czech licence / rating providing you KNOW in advance what you are going for and understand what to do about it should it be the Czech version, and then compare "apples to apples" - it's your choice where you learn. I meet SA PPLs in the UK who chose to do what they did, but knowing in advance exactly what they were going for (an SA PPL as a step towards a JAA CPL) and what it meant.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Now.

There is not much point in getting a full CPL IR that is not recognised in the UK.

The UK CAA does not list any Czech schools but then the only one it does list that is not on these shores is BAE in Jerez.

My understanding is that there are effectively 15 JAA member states for Wannabes, i.e. ones that can issue licenses acceptable to the other 14. Not all of the 15 have got their act together yet to actually do this in practice to make things even murkier!

The 15 states are:

Austria
Belgium
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
UK

Now, bear with me here... There are actually a whole lot more states "in the JAA" or in the process of joining. These are:

(Asterisk means they are candidate members)

Estonia *
Latvia *
Lithuania *
Poland
Ukraine *
Albania *
Bulgaria *
Croatia *
Cyprus *
Czech Rep
Former
Yugoslav
Republic of
Macedonia *
Republic of
Moldova *
Hungary
Malta
Monaco
Romania
Slovak Rep *
Slovenia
Turkey
`
---------------

Austria
Belgium
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
UK

---------------

Iceland
Switzerland
Norway

---------------

So. The Czech Republic is "in the JAA" and may well be able to claim they are "JAA Approved" or whatever.

But. The facts seem to suggest though that a Czech issued CPL IR will be of little use at your Virgin Atlantic interview.


Beware trying to find shortcuts or exotic schemes for making training cheaper. They generally only work if you are the first to find them and you never are. A PPL and 100hrs in somewhere like South Africa can save you some money but brings with it a few downsides.

There is no Right Answer else everyone would be doing the same thing and we could just put a sticky up at the top of the Wannabes Forum and there never would be any threads on training routes ever again.

DO beware though. In this industry there are people with fins on their backs who live on Wannabes money.

Good luck,

WWW

[alan-wrigley]

Your information is well out of date. The Czech Republic became fully JAR compliant approximately one year ago. That means that it is in exactly the same situation as the UK.

At least one of the countries which you list as being fully effective within JAR is not, and that is Germany.

What all this means is that anyone who trains in Czech will be issued with a full JAR licence which does not require any form of conversion. That shoud be adequate for a Virgin or any other interview!

[proxus]

Would you please clarify on the last three states you entered.

Iceland
Switzerland
Norway

where the letters not 'bold' because you were not shure if they are fully JAR licensed ?

If so I would like to clarify that from my bag of experience, Iceland was one of the first states to adopt the JAR's.

regards

Proxus

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh well, please update us all then on the actual situation.

All my info was straight from the CAA and JAA websites.

If its out of date then what can I say..?

WWW

[proxus]

WWW

I am truly sorry if I sounded a little harsh and defensive.

I can see now why you did not 'bold' them, it is because these three states are member of JAR ( and backdoor pass to EU for that matter ) through the EFTA agreement.

We are quite few here in Iceland ( 285K souls ) so we feel a little bit small in this BIG world. Therefore we tend to have a little inferiority complex and try to defend these ( little) things that we do have.

I maybe was thinking about my future ( hopefully ) airline interview and someone said " But is that a JAR state?" after reading it on this mighty and powerfull fountain of information that Pprune is.



p.s. this information is probably from the same side that I found mine i.e. http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/diagram2.pdf (http://)

Oh, and I found this also on the JAA side: "At present the JAA comprises of 26 full members and 11 candidate members"
http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/jaainfo.html#2 (http://)

Oh, another footnote: we are having troubled times here in Iceland, all GA flights, that fly with Avgas 100 LL has been grounded for maybe for several weeks because of damaged fuel. Because we are so few here and far away the oil companys buy large quantities of fuel, so times between each shipment may be up to two years for the Avgas fuel. Very thorough fuel test have to be made to enshure that the fuel is up to standard.
Somehow the fuel that we have now does not have enough 'evaporation pressure' so it may form bubbles in fuel lines.

They found some fuel but it is being reserved for emergencies. But all crafts flying on Jet-A can fly.

So all FTOs and Charter companies are grounded for the time being. SAD

Regards

Proxus:D

[Avadoo]

Is the wake-up call just around the corner?

Four years ago I asked FCL why the mad rush on JAA,
their response, "Well we would not want the others
running the Euro aviation system would we. We have to
get in early to have some control". All that early input
and teething problems must have been very expensive
both for the CAA and flying schools.However that would not matter at all if their captive customer base remained captive'
they would all get their investments back!
But just a minute, what about the nations who avoided all
those problems and sat on the fence for the dust to settle.
Oh dear, big problem ! some of them can now do
the same job as our CAA and schools, for a lot less. The
captive customer base has just gone away - big style.
So, does our CAA have its business head on at the moment
trying to figure out a rescue plan?- you know get FCL dept
going on VAT free commercial training and monitoring a
good VTR system --I hope so for their sake. One things for
sure though, if I were them, I'd omit the cheaper alternatives
qualifications from my web-site too, in fact, if my web-man
advertised the competition on my own site I'd sack him
on the spot.
Another example of good quality Brit work given away
for others to coin-in on.

I hope the end product is cheaper training,for the airlines
included, maybe they would reconsider paying for type-ratings!!


Mr Wrigley could you point us in the direction of some
documentary evidence (in English) to support and hence
promote your post?


Avadoo

[peterpam]

As someone directly working with the JAA Flight Crew Licensing organisation I would point out that much of the information supplied by wee willie welshman is totally inaccurate.
The Czech Republic, along with Iceland, UK, France, Netherlands, Spain and some others have adopted the JAR-FCL and it matters not in which of these states you train and are examined - they are all equal and accepted throughout.

A number of European States have not adopted including such places as Germany, Malta, Greece, Italy.

Anyone requiring up to date knowledge should contact JAA in Hoofdorp. THe situation is changing continually as more states adopt.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well look here Peterpam. Before bombarding me with abusive emails because I don't know the exact state of play with JAA FTO regs this week stop and think.

If *I* can't find out for sure then sure as heck Joe Wannabe can't either. The JAA should be ashamed of its information management skills under such circumstances.

I can't get a straight answer out of anyone so if you wish to pop up and provide one then you are welcome friend.

So come on then - lets have it all chapter and verse please.

Cheers

WWW

[Aviation Trainer too]

It seems that a number of NEW users from York, Yorkshire and Worchester have an interest in this place if you ask me... Maybe an idea to check these people out on an administrator level???

Follow WWW his advice and check the official sites!!!!

Sorry DannyW but I really believe there is no such thing as cheap flight training. Usually if it seems to be too good to be true it is! There is a funny thing about aviation that if you want people to part of their money you claim something is cheap but there is usually a catch somewhere. Maybe not the case here but I rather warn people than hear the stories afterwards.

Just like I did on JAC Academy, who don't have real offices it seems just a mailbox!

The one thing I do agree with all those Yorkshire man is is that also in the UK be careful, but that should be no reason not to go to some of the excellent UK FTO's.

I went to Professional Air Training, not the cheapest but one of the best. Consider Bristol or Triple A. All small but no upfront payment and flying in the UK, don't gamble on something new if it has not proven itself. If money is the problem you shouldnt go for the "New and Cheapest in town"

Good luck!

[tharper]

Danny,
Have you looked at South African flying schools many of which offer JAA courses. Some also have JAA examiners and will do all the paperwork thro JAA.
Other plus points are cheap fuel (£40 per hour dual) and tuition and very cheap accommodation and food and good weather.

Flight Training College of Africa www.ftcaafrica.com (Jo-burg and definitely does JAA)
Blue Chip Aviation [email protected] (Pretoria)
Rand Flight Academy www.randflight.co.za (Jo-burg)
Airline pilot training Centre www.aptrac.co (Port Elizabeth)

Good luck

Tony

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

www

Reading some of the above posts I can't help but wonder why you bother sometimes mate...

:rolleyes:

[Anti Skid On]

Nowt but respect, the guy has the T-shirt and was like most of you (and lurkers like me!)

Listen to his advice.

Whilst on the subject, training is cheap (as are the costs of living) here in NZ and the licence fairly easy to redo elsewhere.

[dannyweaver]

tharper- I've got information from 58 different flying schools from all over the world, including South Africa. (Plus I'm waiting for info from another 6!)

You might think thats a little over the top, but doing all that research can only be a good thing, surely?

Anyway- before me, I have a March 2003 copy of FLYER, open on page 82. On the left:
Cost effective commercial flight training is now being conducted by Cloud 9 Aviation at Brno-Turany airport in the Czech Republic.
Full JAA approved for integrated, modular ground and flight training
So it is JAA approved, unless their lying!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes but what does "JAA Approved" actually mean?

Check that it means the CAA will let you fly G registered aircraft with a Czech issued "JAA" license.

The concept of dirt cheap flight training in the former Eastern Bloc countries is not one which I necessarily decry. But do not commit to spending money before you have something in writing from the UK CAA would be my advice.

Good luck one and all,

WWW

[alan-wrigley]

This argument about what is or is not a proper licence is dragging on far too long.

Read LASORS 2003 edition, section A, page 3, which lists those states which were JAR fully approved in October 2002. You will see that the Czech Republic is amongst them, with approval for JAR FCL 1 and 3, which means that fixed wing training is approved.

So far as the source of licence issue is concerned, it is irrelevant. There is effectively no such thing as a Czech JAR licence or a UK JAR licence. They are all identical JAR licences, simply issued in different states. Anyone desperate to have "UK" on a licence can do so by following the procedure outlined in LASORS section A, page 10, which explains that the state of licence issue may be changed if a pilot works or resides in a state different from that of licence issue. There is only a small fee for this.

If a pilot has a licence issued in one state and wishes to add a rating, this can be done in any other state. This was the whole idea of JAA in the first place. So, you can fly your G-registered aeroplane until you run out of objections to the idea of cross-state acceptability. Let's hope that it won't be too long before we in western Europe are able to accept that people in other places can actually do the job just as well as we can, whatever the arguments are on pricing.

I am not on commission, but may I commend LASORS to those who want authoritative answers rather than supposition and rumour?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes but natural born sceptic that I am I want to see someone do it before I believe it.

It may well work just fine. In which case all eyes swivle Eastwards...

WWW

[carbonfibre]

LOW COST

I have to agree with the comment, theres no such thing, but that depends on your perspective, a £1000 - 2000 more for a repectable school may just be a prudent saving in the end.

I am looking at doing my IR, have spent a lot of time gathering brochures, ringing them up and seeing what there services are like, on and off the phone.

I personally want someone to give me a hard time while training, to expect better than standard than the minimum, we all know they want your money, and have to say only 3 i have rung so far i would consider going too, and i have made appointments for a personal visit, and then i will make a decision.

After 2 years of finding the good and bad schools during my training, you tend to get a feel. This is a particular problem with going abroad, you dont get to see before you arrive.

But i do have to say i have only ever found one bad school. I think thats a good recommendation for the industry.

At the end of the day, remember, they want your money, a reputable school will keep you informed of your progress and at an early stage too if they think you will overrun, and never pay upfront, it costs them the same, not 000's less because you paid them lots upfront

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Don't put too much weight on how a school handles initial enquiries and general admin. Its the quality of the one on one instruction in the air that should concern you. The availability of aircraft and the operational interity of the home airfield.

There are a number of schools I know of who are pretty shaky at picking up the phone and have nasty advertising materials yet are excellent places to learnt o pass flight tests.

Speaking to past customers if one of the most valuable things you can do. Particularly when they have left the school at least 6 months ago. When you are there or just graduated you have an understandable enthusiasm for the place you trained. Once that has worn off a disspassionate view can be gained.

If it is any comfort I can say that there are no rogue schools in the UK. If there were any that consistently did a poor job or let their students down routinely then you would hear about it here. Which you don't.

WWW

[cfb]

Maybe its prudent to remember that its not just the ratings you need to get an Airline job.
To get your CV selected by the Training Captain even for an interview, from several hundred others on his desk, means that yours has to be a little bit special. In the brains of most Training / Recruitment Captains I have ever met, there is no substitute for a candidate trained in UK airspace, and by a "credible" FTO,
There may be a cheaper route to the rating, but perhaps not to the interview.
Good luck anyway.

[BillieBob]

I think the problem is that WWW was looking at the wrong part of the JAA website. It took me about 3 minutes of searching to discover this "List of JAA-NAA with Recommendation for Mutual Recognition" Here (http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/licensing_overview.html)
As Peterpam says, a JAA licence issued by any one of those states listed (including the Czech Republic) is exactly the same as any other. The UK CAA will certainly recognise it.

[dannyweaver]

Thanks everyone for your help and advice!
there is no substitute for a candidate trained in UK airspace, and by a "credible" FTO
Like you say, it probably is better that I train with an established UK school with a good reputation. This school in the Czech Republic was 'just another flying school' that I'd come across and wanted to find out more about.
Theres no such thing as cheap flight training
Is anything in aviation cheap? Perhaps I should have said cheaper