Would you encourage your child to join the military?

[Biggus]

I saw a TV programme on the MOD a couple of years ago that mentioned a survey in which it was found that approx 90% of UK military personnel would not encourage their child to join. How do you feel?

[BEagle]

I'd encourage anyone to join what I joined............

But it no longer exists.

Draw your own conclusions.

[left one o clock]

Ditto. In fact, I'd probably actively discourage them. Sad really.

[soddim]

Whilst the RAF is merely a shadow of the service I served the rest of society has also changed.

I still believe there is no better job from which to learn self discipline, teamwork and professional skills. RAF flying training is still the best and there are some fine people left serving. If only they were better served by their senior officers.

On balance, nothing is as it was but the RAF is still a good place for any sprog of mine.

[fobotcso]

I PVR'd almost as soon as I could. Working for turkeys and drawing separation allowance on a home based non-frontline appointment were the end markers.

As BEagle says, it's not the outfit I joined 50 years ago. But as a cold war warrior, I am happy that I did my bit.

But I have endless admiration for and envy of the frontline aircrew who strut their stuff today. They really are something special.

It's when the gloss wears off and the scramble for the meagre chances of promotion and responsibility are competed for that the idealists' dreams crumble.

Money is not the answer. Recognition and appreciation are worth so much more.

You have to take the long view and that is that there are simply not enough opportunities in the middle piece and above for the talent that you need in the junior officer/aircrew on the front line. The disillusionment that follows is inevitable.

[Chilli Monster]

Not a chance!

The military is, and always will be a 'face fits' organisation where an ability to do the job doesn't always mean moving up the promotion scale. If either of my kids have aspirations to be succesful at anything then the military is the last place that will do them any good. You're nothing but a small cog in a big machine and so your true potential isn't realised - to the detriment of your career and, more importantly, income.

After leaving the RAF seven years ago I've nearly trebled my income doing my dream job - the job the military said I wasn't good enough to do inside its hallowed doors. If that doesn't prove the above point then I don't know what does :confused:

Am I bitter about 15 wasted years - not totally, but only because I've had the last laugh ;)

CM

[LOMCEVAK]

Encourage, no. But if they had a real desire to join any of the UK services, especially the RAF, then they would have my whole hearted support. I was always very conscious that I did not want my children to become bore-sighted on what I had done. Therefore, I have tried to ensure that they have an appreciation of a wide spectrum of life and not just military flying. Within this framework they have developed a great liking and appreciation for military aircraft. And if they do want to fly professionally, the RAF will, I am sure, always provide the best training available, even if it is not as good as it once was. But I will make sure that they think through the long term options because it certainly is not a job for life! Milk it for all you can, like learning to fly, then get a life!!!

[Postman Plod]

Although its no longer part of our job description as VR(T) bods, or part of the ATC aims, RAF recruitment is kind of unofficially part of the whole reason for existance of the ATC / ACO.

I'd say only about 10% of my cadets are actively interested in joining up, and in fact many of them tend to go for the Army rather than the RAF. (why are they in the ATC is what I wonder?!)

Looking at the RAF from the outside, I'd say there is still an awfull lot that it can offer, as long as the applicant is completely aware of what they are signing up for, and I think that is the whole problem - the applicants haven't a clue... I know from past experience, that the more experienced ones on this board can be quite "jaded" about the RAF as it is now, as it's not what they joined - which it clearly isn't. I think they would still see positives in the RAF though, and honestly that is what I try to "sell" to any cadets who are interested. I just wish recruitment material would be honest, but then that doesn't give the RAF a nice glossy corparate image, and would be rather unappealing to the prospective employee..... :rolleyes:

[Flap62]

For a while at least I did the best job in the world - no questions. In 40years time I won't remember the SDO's and secondary duties. I will remember 100ft through the highlands, sticks of CBUs and stunt VSTOL. Would I recommend it - you bet I would!

[Ioan]

A lot of people (judging by the poll results) wouldn't recommend joining up, but do you think this will change?
The RAF recently had some reports done on their problems with fast jet pilot shortages, namely that pilots are usually a hell of a lot better paid in the airlines, and leave the RAF after the minimum period of service expected of them. The forces are also thought of by many as being elitist, and there’s also the element of ‘I couldn’t stand being shouted at 24/7'.
Any thoughts on whether the RAF will increase the pilots' pay, improve conditions, and maybe shrug off the image it share with the other services?

[TheNightOwl]

I did 22 years as a "Cold War Warrior", left as a Ch/Tech 20 years ago, and would do my utmost to deter any child of mine joining today's mob UNLESS he/she was accepted as a Commissioned Officer. There is no way I would wish on my offspring some of the utter bulls**t I put up with, usually from some still-wet-behind- the-ears sprog still learning to stand.
That said, I still miss most of it, not so much the technical side of a working life as the "soldiering" part on exercise and Tacevals, surprisingly!!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.

[scroggs]

If my kids showed any interest in joining (as commissioned aircrew), I'd back them to the hilt. Of course, I'd warn them about the illusory benefits of promotion and the self-interested and political management style of their Airships, but I could, as a third generation RAF officer, show them the evidence that nothing is new under the blue Ensign.

The fact is that the training and lifestyle is, for those who make the most of what's available, far better than almost anything available outside. No way would I suggest that they should devote their lives to the military - there's lots to be gained by taking that training and experience into the wider world by about 30 years of age.

Military life, for those with a suitably balanced and healthily cynical point of view, is great while you're young. As you get older, comfort and security become more important - and the risks that military life presents become less acceptable. But there's no better way to get a really broad-based perspective on the problems of life, the universe and everything.

I'd recommend it.

[Samuel]

I'm with Beagle; the air force[s] I served in no longer exist in the form that they were, and while my son had a slight asthma problem as a small boy it had long since ceased to be a problem by the 7th Form, but he refused to 'fudge' the answer when asked, so I should be pleased his integrity was inherited!

He knows from meeting former colleagues of mine, both winged and not, that I had the utmost respect for all of them. That wained somewhat in the last of my 25 years when Direct Entry idiots came to power!

Though a total aerophile, he now, at 26, has other interests!

[Lukeafb1]

I’ve held back from contributing to this topic, since I must declare a somewhat biased (or jaundiced) viewpoint.

I left the R.A.F. in 1973 as a Sergeant (qualified Ch Tech), since, after years of frustration, I could see no further career prospects in the R.A.F., even had I stayed on to complete 22 years. At the time I left, I had considerably more academic qualifications than required for a commission, a CPL and exemplary record. I was turned down for aircrew 5 times, despite on 4 occasions completing the full OASC selection process successfully. During my early career, I was told during numerous official interviews, that if I gained the requisite academic qualifications, I would (in all probability) be accepted for a commission/aircrew. As I have already said, I did, in abundance. Did this achieve the desired effect? No, dear friends, it did not! In the end, I gave up in disgust and left. Since then, I have had a very satisfying and, dare I say it, senior career in the real world and am very financially secure. When I do decide to retire, I will retire on a larger package than the Chief of the Air Staff. So who is the joke really on? Oh! By the way, I was a Cockney, raised in Hackney, East London. Might this have had a bearing on things?????

Did I encourage any of my children to join the British services (they all have degrees). NOT ON YOUR BL**DY LIFE! The only one who wanted to fly, joined the U.S. Air Force, with my total encouragement.

[Big Cheese1]

I myself am looking upon joining this year, though what disturbs me (and has been mentioned previous) is this 'face fits' type of thought which I hear happens.

I mean, is there still an elitist attitude within the 'officer corps' whereby you need to have come from the right background?

[CrabInCab]

Big Cheese, don't worry, whereas the Army works on right school, good family and polo handicap; the face that fits in the Air Farce is far from elitist, more like a comprehensive educated, brown noser who wears polyester suits with homer simpson ties!

Join up, get to Flt Lt and enjoy life!

;)

[nav attacking]

Don't worry Big Cheese, it isn't an elitist organisation at all. But being good at your primary duty isn't enough to get you promoted. You have to "prove a broader ability" (brown nosing) despite the extra pressures on family life etc you are still expected to put in all hours. Great when you are young and probably single but as already stated by some, priorities tend to change as you get older. Unfortunately some of those higher up still can't see that and expect everyone to be the same as them.

What we really need is a damn good war to weed out the chaff.....
(oh, sorry we are about to have one)

[Thud Ridge]

If you guys are not going to encourage your children to join up then what else would you like them to do.

I am probably young enough to be classed as some of your children (23yo) and i joined the Navy (as a pilot) because i wanted to serve my country and also to have a lot of fun whilst i did it. If this is either by flying upside down in a firefly whilst solo, formation flying in a jet, or flying low-level in a junglie at 100kts then, or getting the chance to go on expeditions whilst on hold then i still think i have the best job going.

I left a good university with a good degree and could have gone on to do many careers in the city, or in the civilian flying world, but i chose to do what i wanted to do. I am in a well paid job (£31000 at age 23 is not bad going) and having a damn good time. I am sure the point will come when i want to settle down but whilst i am young free and single i wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

Some jobs have their good sides. All jobs have their bad sides. In 10, 20 or 50 years time i will not remember the bad times, and in the 2 years i have served there have been many good times.

The Navy/RAF is not what it used to be, and never will be again. I never knew what it was like then so i can only go on what i know now.

Who would not have loved to have been a spitfire pilot during WWII, or have flown a buccaneer off a carrier - but these opportunities don't exist anymore but i am doing the next best thing our generation can do.

So come on guys. You are supposed to be our inspiration. The guys who can take us fresh-faced pilots, instill the traditions you have carried, give us knowledge, spin us some salty dits (or stories), and let us be proud in the decision we have taken.

TR

PS any ideas for jobs that include excitement, good pay, opportunities to go on expeds, a good bunch of workmates, and a uniform smart enough to get a degree in smartness from cambridge university, then let me know - my civvy mates would love to apply.

[Biggus]

Thud Ridge

You are young, free, probably single and having a great time. When you are old enough to have a teenage child your opinion as to whether or not to encourage them to join up may, or may not, have changed. Feel free to start a similar thread to this in 10-15 years time and tell us, or our children, your feelings then.

[Thud Ridge]

Biggus,

So you wouldn't encourage your child to join up when he/she is young free and single, get everything he/she can get out of the forces for a few years, and then leave having served there country, had a good time, and maybe with a few hundred/thousand hours of flying hours under their belt?

TR

[Samuel]

Good for you Thud.

Go for it!:D

[Mach the Knife]

As a Pilot - Yes
As any thing else - No

[Dipole]

I served in the services through the Falklands, saw the end of the Cold War and was invited to the last beach party in the Gulf.

What is this "good lifestyle" that gets mentioned. I didn't see it.
Obviously my face didn't fit! I PVR'd early, couldn't face waiting for the 22 yrs (No promotion prospects even with exemplary record)

I now run my own business, own a large house that sits in 15 acres in Surrey. (With no mortgage....guess how much that's worth!!!)

Wouldn't be doing that if I'd stayed in would I?

Not bad for a Corporal eh?

(I await the "P*** Off, you're not aircrew!)

[deeps]

As a parent with an 18 year old currently just passed his aptitude for pilot and his AIB for the FAA and considering whether the AAC might be fun as well, I think I have some experience to offer. Especially since I spent 20 generally very happy years in the RN myself before leaving to find new challenges.

Am I happy my son is committed to starting a career in flying (or any other discipline, for that matter) with the military? Absolutely 100%. Do I think the services (whichever) aren't what they used to be? Gone to the dogs - but they were going to the dogs in my time, my parents' time, my grandparents' time...................

Whether my son ends up in the Navy or the Army (the RAF doesn't seem to appeal, for some reason - can't be me, surely) as a long term career seems to me entirely irrelevant at 18. What I do know is that he will work hard, have a whale of a time, learn a marketable skill and, most important of all, learn life lessons such as leadership and decision-making under pressure which will make him a very attractive proposition should he decide to leave later on and pursue a career outside the military.

I envy him his youth and his chance to enjoy all the things I enjoyed at his stage.

And as for those who whinge about workload and working hours, words fail me - don't think it's any easier outside. The separation may not be there but if you really think anybody is going to offer you a challenging job with real responsibility (and therefore a decent salary) without demanding blood in return, you have a sad awakening coming. Failures to meet the standards demanded in the Services may occasionally have serious consequences, of course, for the individual and for those he is responsibile for. But generally those failures are not life-threatening, are spotted early and dealt with by encouragement, closer supervision, retraining etc. They are not met with a sudden invitation to clear your desk and return the company car keys.

[Lukeafb1]

To add a couple of subsequent points to my earlier mail to this thread.

“Serving my/your country” has been mentioned more than once by contributors. Whilst I am as loyal to Britain/U.S.A. (I am dual nationality) as the next person, I very much doubt that the majority of people joining the British services, join out of loyalty to their country. I’m not saying that Thud is an exception, but I would bet that he is in the minority. Indeed, in the late 50s when I joined the R.A.F., that was the last thing on my mind, or of most of my colleagues (I can honestly say that I never heard anyone say that they had joined because they wanted to serve their country – although in most cases that was probably taken as read). It was simply seen, rightly or wrongly, as an excellent career. Admittedly, for the whole of my service, there were no Gulfs and Iraqs to contend with. I’m prepared to be corrected, but I would bet that the vast majority of people joining the services today, don’t join to serve their country, despite the fact that they know that they may be called on to go into combat. They join to get training and a (relatively) stable job.

Secondly, four of us contributing to the thread, have all said, in effect, that we were held back by the service and only came into our own, when we left. And I have met many more individuals since I left the R.A.F., for whom the same is true, commissioned officers as well as O.R.s. I am simply saying that, yes, join the services for a short period, if that is what you really want to do, get your training, learn life skills, have fun – and then get out and use that training/experience in civilian life to really reach your potential, preferably while you are still young enough to make your mark. As an aside, I was one of 166 in an Aircraft Apprentice entry. After, twenty two years, I found out that only ONE individual had even reached the rank of Wing Commander (and he left in that rank). Not very encouraging, considering that we were all supposed to be “above average”.

[BarryMonday]

What I find interesting about this thread is that those who say, "Yes, go for it" are either RN or Army and those who say definitely "No" are, generally, RAF. Surely therein lies a tale?
Maybe their 'Airships' should be taking note.

[Yes, was in Army, would certainly encourage any youngster to-day into any of the three services as well:D ]

[Boy_From_Brazil]

My son is a RAF pilot, a career he wanted from a very early age. Even if I had wanted to have discouraged him (which I didn't), I believe it would have made absolutely no difference, he had incredible determination. If a child can be discouraged from joining the Services, then the chances are that it wouldn't be the right career choice in the first place.

The end result is that my son is very happy with his life, even though like any other occupation you have to put up with the occasional BS from your bosses. The pressures of living away from home are just as bad in the 'outside world'.

Most careers are not as good as they used to be, this is not limited to just the military. However military aviation still rates as one of the most exciting jobs in the world. It also offers up incredible opportunities when you decide to leave.

[Biggus]

Thud Ridge (and anyone else interested)

You have obviously decided, no doubt from the tone of my comments, what my feelings are on the subject - even though I haven't actually stated them as such. Anyway, for what it is worth here are my thoughts:

First of all you are right, I AM OLD ENOUGH TO BE YOUR FATHER! I joined the RAF many years ago, when there were 50,000 Russian Tanks in a country called East Germany facing 8,000 NATO tanks in a country called West Germany. There was a tangible threat and I had some quaint old fashioned notion that I was defending my country ("serving it" I believe you would say) and preserving our way of life. OH YES - AND I WANTED TO FLY fFAST AND NOISY AEROPLANES!! I did not join for the watch, the uniform or Wednesday afternoons off for sport. No doubt I may have been unusual at the time (my wife still thinks I am unusual!!!), and am now a cold war fossil!!!

Nevertheless, I considered life in the military a form of vocation, if only for the sacrifices it entails and commitment it requires. Look at the thread, on this very site "IOT (or Dartmouth to you) and relationships", that is only a few days old, for the discussion on the effects military life can have today on relationships, divorce rates in the military, etc... I am currently serving on a front line Sqn, and this is how it is at the moment (This is not a whinge, just a simple statement of the way it is). Most people do not get their full annual leave entitlement. We are undermanned in most trades, with no corresponding decrease in tasking. Our flight commanders main preoccupation seems to be making sure we have all passed our fitness test, and are CCS current, to the extent it has priority over flying. Getting time off for professional courses is very difficult, as for expeditions, those are what the SACs and non-aircrew go on - and good luck to them! That is how it is on my outfit at least, and it has been that way for years now! Does it get me down? Sometimes! Am I a whinger who should just have the balls to PVR - no, at least I don't think so! We have guys on the Sqn who could whinge for Britain, I am not one of them, and they piss me off as much anyone! Are there still days when it is a joy to fly? YES, you bet there are!! I am sure life is very different for you, you may still be in the Mon-Fri world of training, the RN no doubt are far more efficient in the way they do things than the RAF, etc, etc.... But there are 22 year olds on my Sqn living daily in the situation I described (in a very matter of fact way I hope) above, which I am sure is not unique in the military, and I am sure we have it easier than some/most.

To finally get round to answering my own question. Would I encourage a child of mine to join? NO!!! Would I go so far as to discourage them? NO!! If they are to make a success of life in the military they need enough commitment of their own that my encouragement or discouragement should not be necessary to sway their decision. I would however, TELL THEM WHAT IT IS LIKE BEHIND THE GLOSSY BROCHURES, give them some information (good and bad) so they know some of the things to expect. But then my children have a fairly good idea already, they know exactly how many birthdays, Christmas holidays, family holidays, weekends, school plays, sports days, etc that "daddy" has missed because he has been away/working!!

I started this thread not as a bash at the military, but to hear other peoples views. The RAF has been to me "the best of times, the worst of times....".

Nuff said

[polyglory]

Biggus

I agree with that, my era and my views also.

[ajsh]

Sorry Biggus, I must take issue with the 50,000 Warsaw Pack against the 8000 NATO Tanks. I served as a Troop Commander in FRG and can assure you that NATO would have been lucky to field half that amount on a very very good day….

Anyway the THREAT propaganda aside, neither of my children have ever expressed an interest in any of the services. Had they expressed any interest I would have actively encouraged them. All posters have correctly identified that the services we joined are very much different from those of today. I mean my own cavalry Regiment was amalgamated in 1969 (before my time) and again in 1994 (after my time) during Options for Change. Nevertheless, the core principles of self-discipline, teamwork and the development of the individual all remain. Promotions and advancement may be a little harder than they were but other standards – as in accommodation, food and equipment – have increased if only marginally.

I do not for one moment regret my time in the Services and if I have the opportunity would almost certainly do it all over again. However, I do agree with many posters that “if your face fits” and “a little brown nosing” (a skill I failed to acquire) always do some good…..even if it only boosts the ego of the recipient

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Some great answers here but a lot depends on your slant. :rolleyes:

I think until you have been taken from your primary role, what ever that might be, to guard the gate when it's pi@@ing down or over Xmas etc, or have to do another pointless Orderly airmen or many of the other pi@@ duties that most airmen do in there time, which most of the posters here have never ever done!! it's a bit rich to pontificate on the short comings of others.

I am a loadie with almost 30 years under my belt. Half of that was as a techie and now,for ME as I can't do any better, I have the best job in the mob.

But unless my lad or lass could achieve "a window seat" I would sonner they became binmen or plumbers,not TG1 I hasten to add:p than join her majesties "not so finest".

I have had, and still do, some great times but there is a whole plethora of things we lack from leadership to equipment and for the short space of time my young ones are here I think they can do much better elsewhere and would advise them accordingly.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Big Cheese1]

ABIW, sorry whats TG1?

[Beenthere]

Yes and no.

Over thirty years of strapping into aircraft and still enjoying it. Had enough experience of exercises, deployments, TACEVAL, MINEVALs etc before marrying and raising a family so knew what to expect.

Good fun and good friends, lots of travel, reasonable pay, reasonable security of job etc.

Still get totally hacked off with lackof kit, poor leadership, lack of recognition, lots of deployments etc but still doing the job that I'm paid to do, or is that an old fashioned idea?

Life is what you make of it.

i.e. balanced advice not just "I got hacked off with it" or "I had a good time". I probably wouldn't advise on a long contract but that seems to be the modern way with two or three career changes for this generation.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

BC1,
TG1, or trade group 1 always used to in clude weapons technicians, believe it still does, who were more commonly referred to as plumbers:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[smartman]

A late input I'm afraid.

I'd agree with those who'd neither encourage or discourage. Mine followed me around for twenty years or so; one had a brief taste of it, left early, and now regrets it. Theirs, like mine, was a personal choice, and there were many pointers to enable them to decide.

I don't subscribe to the Beagle view that 'it's not like wot it was in my time' (apologies if I've misinterpreted). I well remember in my early JP years, sitting on barstools in messes various, being bored witless having to listen to the wrinklies drone on about their 'good times'. I then became a wrinkly and probably dished out my own equally boring versions of the good times! Life goes on - and from Trenchard's times to those of today's RAF, a lot has changed (obviously), but I also suspect that some things - both good and bad - haven't. And it's a probability that those 'some things' represent the real core of the RAF.

After 27 years in the FJ environment, I left - simply to have a bash at something else before I expired - and saw many other sides of life in UK and overseas business, and in other air forces. I can assure all those who talk of brown-nosing, secondary duties, suffering youthful pain-in-the-bum bosses etc etc, that life outside offers a basketful of the same. And to those who talk of not being able to climb the greasy pole on the inside but then beat their chests over having made it on the outside - sorry you didn't/couldn't make the grade.

For me, I'd do it all again - changes and all. That would be my only 'encouragement'.

[Lukeafb1]

Smartman,

Whilst I have no wish to argue the pros and cons with you, I am aware of one ex-R.A.F. Corporal, who attempted on numerous occasions, to gain a flying commission in the RAF and who failed out of hand (for reasons unknown to him).

He is now a senior captain with one of the largest U.S. carriers (about to retire, in fact).

Where does that place your quote "And to those who talk of not being able to climb the greasy pole on the inside but then beat their chests over having made it on the outside - sorry you didn't/couldn't make the grade".

[smartman]

Luke

Well done to him!!

My point still applies - he didn't make the grade (for whatever reason), for which I'm sorry. He clearly should take pride if he beats his chest about it. I wasn't trying to imply anything sinister in my remarks, simply suggesting that there will be those who could cut the mustard but unfortunately weren't recognised - and those who couldn't cut it; all for whatever reason. But, as in all walks of life, there'll be those few who didn't hack the grade through personal failure, make it elsewhere, and then beat their chests in order to throw scorn on their first employer.

Enough! Let's have another beer ----------------

[Lukeafb1]

I do understand where you are coming from Smartman. However my point was that, yes, there are those who genuinely wouldn't make it in any walk of life (steady on there, Luke!). But there are still some of us, who for political, or other reasons, not to do with our ability or aptitude, were discounted by the Services and still made it (whatever that means) in civvy street.

Mine's double brandy - five star, please!

[BEagle]

What I meant was that I would indeed join the mob I joined all those years ago. But in its current form it does not offer the same appeal to me now as it did then; were I to have the same chance today, personally I'd probably embark upon a different career. As it is I've got 158 days left until my exit date; sorry, but a ground tour simply doesn't have sufficient appeal to retain me at this late stage.

Good luck to all those who do join, however; TypHoon is amazing as will be F35. Most of the 'heavies' are due to be replaced within a decade - as are most rotaries. Enjoy.....

[Zoom]

Thud

I like your attitude and I wish you every success in the second best flying institution. But why don't you transfer to its superior - the RAF looks like it could do with a dash of your kind of spirit right now.

[Chilli Monster]

Smartman
But, as in all walks of life, there'll be those few who didn't hack the grade through personal failure, make it elsewhere, and then beat their chests in order to throw scorn on their first employer.
I think you're missing the point. The people who have achieved outside but didn't inside have not done it through "personal failure" inside. The non-achieving inside, maybe not in the flying world but in the majority of ground trades, is down to the face fits mentality. Of my 15 years in the first 12 were spent almost entirely working with others from my speciality (I was TG9), the last 3 on a flying squadron at a certain Wiltshire airbase. The complete difference in atmosphere and attitude from superiors on that posting was a breath of fresh air and made it an enjoyable experience. Age had caught up with me however and so my preferred career path had passed me by and I was forced to look outside. Not that I'm complaining, or " beating my chest" as you call it. It's just one of those things and had I known as a youngster what I knew then I would never have considered the RAF, but would have gone civvy from day one.

(I hardly think that someone who pays higher rate tax, owns a chunk of an aeroplane and gets to operate RHS in a Citation occasionally can be described as a non-achiever :D)

As ABIW says - if it was for a front seat in any of Her Maj's flying machines it might be different, but if one of mine wanted to be on the ground in any of the forces I would have to point out the pro's and con's - and there are a lot of con's.

One final point that's worth considering. I got an e-mail from a guy who was on the same intake as me. In 23 years he's gone from nothing to Flight Sergeant but isn't qualified to do his present job as a civilian . To achieve that will probably cost him the best part of £50K and probably won't happen because of age. I only got as far as Cpl but am fully qualified (If you haven't guessed by now we're both ATCO's) and have a career until I retire (medical permitting ;)) Any conversation with my kids would have to involve the question "If you were wanting to join the forces what would you do afterwards?". Not all skills are transferable, and because of that so many people who leave often have to settle for something that doesn't fulfill their full potential, with the pension bolstering an income which is nowhere near what they were getting in the military.

CM

[DummyRun]

Hands up who ran round the school playground playing accountants, I would'nt have changed it for the world, bitching aside we're a lucky bunch guy's but I'd probably encourage my my son to join the the Army as the elastic in my white socks will have perished by the the time he's old enough to sign up.

[smartman]

Chilli M

I'm not missing any point - simply put forward my own. Feel free to disagree anytime. You makes your bed -------------

[PPRuNeUser0172]

I don't have kids so not really qualified to comment on the original post but the feel that for a young lad who didn't do too bad at school, the RAF/Forces is the place to be. The pay is good, and you make some great mates and most importantly the beer is cheap. It seems that the guys who have been in a while have seen some irreversible changes/damage?? to the services but guys in my generation (only been commissioned for 18 months) don't know any different and therefore are still very enthusiastic. So basically, if your kids fancy a career which is a bit different then I would back them all the way.

Who knows maybe in 16 years I will have changed my mind. But til then here's to the Queen!

[You want it when?]

Well said Dirty Sanchez, of course it was more fun in the olden days before everything caught up. But it's always been A) what you make of it and B) what you're used too.

It's just as tough in the civilian world. If either of my sons said they wanted to join up then I'd support them as much as I could.

They are free to screw up in the same way that I was.

[EESDL]

What happens if your son wants to be a pilot who plays rugby and cricket for England and earn enough to buy his parents a place in Spain, without wanting to go to school?
OK so he's only 9 and has some alarming discoveries to make.
Just hope that whatever route he chooses he does so after finding all the facts and disregards the pr blurb.

If he desperately wants to join I feel I can only encourage him.
Just as if he desperately wants to become an actor/ballet dancer etc

[akula]

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

yeah get the cub signed up asap the forces are great and it does not really matte which one, i'v had some time in a couple of different elements af the forces and loved it all.

always ASSUME never CHECK

[zola]

Both my parents have encouraged me to try and join the R.A.F as long as a try for a commission. After listening to what they said about life in the armed forces I recieved the impression that non-officer ranks get treated in a very poor manner. As one of my parents was an officer and one wasn’t they both agreed that what ever I do I should only join as an officer. Neither of them have tried to push me into wanting to join the R.A.F but they have said that some of the time in the forces was the best times of there lives. The only thing that they did clearly state was not to join the Army!

[ZH875]

If you want to know how non-commisioned bods are thought of by their commisioned superiors, look in the wonderful book "The Air Force List", it lists everyone in the Royal Air Force, only one exception - every non-commisioned person. There are definetly TWO seperate RAF sections Officers and the Under achievers.

[Training Risky]

No ZH, that little fact does NOT signal how ORs are viewed by officers. You would have to be pretty cynical to think that all officers view ORs as sub-human, that is ridiculous.

The Air Force list has been around longer than I have, and its just not possible to include all 50 000+ service personnel in it.
But that doesn't mean that we think they are worthless.

Only a tw*t would think he's special just because he's an officer and the man strapping him in is not. After all, the Harrier hero cannot do his job if he doesn't have all those trade groups backing him up.:rolleyes:

[Proletarian]

Would I encourage my children to join the RAF? If they were male, determined to fly as a pilot and had the basic ability as well as the utterly single-minded drive necessary to succeed on fast-jets, then yes, but only on a SSC and then get out to the airlines. However, I wouldn't encourage them to join under any other circumstances. The reason being is that in the officer corps the RAF has split into two utterly separate groups, first aircrew and everybody else. Then within aircrew if you're not a pilot, you're a second-class citizen, then within pilots if you're not a single-seat fast-jet driver, you're always going to be further down in the pecking order. All of one company - you must be joking!

Many of my friends have enjoyed their career in the Army, but loathe the inherent snobbery, 'old school tie' and private income attitude of many senior officers at the top end. The RN is fine if, as a bloke, you fancy being away from home for months at a time cooped up in an over-sized tin can in the company of hundreds of other fellas. Probably appeals to a certain type of individual, but not something I would recommend to those who suffer from claustrophobia or like a bit of personal privacy. Of course the services are an equal opportunity employer, however, the fact is that women joining any of the services probably do so in the knowledge that the organisations are completely male dominated, in every sense, and always will be, so I wouldn't recommended it to a daughter of mine, unless she just fancies finding and marrying a bloke in uniform in fairly short order.

I suppose it comes down to whether I would join again. I would have no hesitation in joining the RAF of the early 1979's again, but, viewed from the inside, I seriously doubt that I'd want to join the RAF of 2003. Three year postings to well-established bases overseas replaced by endless detachments to tents dumped in the middle of warring factions in some third-world toilet, all in pursuit of Phony Tony's ambitions to be taken seriously as a world statesman. Generally sufficiently good kit, adequate service manpower and infrastructure replaced by shortages of unreliable equipment, too many unresponsive civil contractors and a lack of long-term investment. Back then the answer to the question of when something could be done, was 'when do you want it' now it's 'who's budget is paying for it'.

Of course none of the above will deter hundreds of spotty youths (like I was 30+ years ago) from applying to join the RAF and I wish them all every success. Your perceptions of what an organisation is like are fundamentally based on what you actually experience, not on what other people years ahead of you have experienced. So if you want, give it a whirl, go in with your eyes wide open and get out of what you can, while you can. Then when you've had enough, bang out and write to a PPRUNE forum complaining how things have changed from when you joined back in 2003!

[FEBA]

Well this thread has dragged all of the bellyachers out of the woodwork and those that want to cock a snoop at those that are enjoying military service by saying "look at how good I am now that I've left".
Well a great big raspberry to the lot of you. There all ways was a load of whingers in the forces, try reading St Crispians day speech Henry V "And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed they were not here with us"
I have long since left the forces and now have a good well paid job in the flying business but seldom a day goes by when I do not think about my experiences in the forces or trade memories with others who have served. Some of my experiences were bloody hard (especially Norway) and not so great at the time, yet now remembered with fondness
I'm proud that I served and would not hesitate to do it all again.
I have two boys one of whom is nuts about Harriers. I would do nothing to hinder his ambition and do everything I can to encourage it. I cant begin to imagine how proud I would be to see him achieve, even if it did mean joining the RAF ! .
Apre Portillo the forces are not the same, sure, but there's no where in civvy street that can positively mould and influence the characters of young men and women like the armed forces.
Join up, have fun.
Now wheres that shilling ?

[ZH875]

Training Risky - Thanks for the reasurring response, but I can tell you that there are a number of Tw*ts out there who do belittle their groundcrew. But I will accept that there are some very good guys out there, doing a good (and bl**dy dangerous) job who can only be described as very professional guys and all round good eggs.

[Dimensional]

This has been up on the walls of my ATC Sqn for a while now.

Choose life. Choose GA. Choose a Cessna 152. Choose a Lycoming O-360 with a penchant for Carb Ice. Choose a runway, choose a FTO, instructor, syllabus, a JAR-FCL PPL(A). Choose passing your skills test. Choose a group, a cheap old 1978 PA-28 with a dodgy flap and a three hour endurance. Choose a cross channel trip to Le Touquet. Choose the £100 hamburger, LARS, DACS and AFIS. Choose solo nav, flying alone on a Sunday morning, bored out of your mind. Choose sitting in the LHS listening to Volmet, wondering who the hell gave some people their licence.

Choose life. Choose Commercial Aviaton. Choose a Piper Seneca III. Choose a pair of noisy pistons and a crap Nav set. Choose a runway, choose a TRE, CFII, ATPL techs and a 170A. Choose passing your Instrument Rating. Choose an airline, flying ancient 737-200's out of Luton full of pissed-up lager louts. Choose a French ATC strike. Choose bad pay, CAA inspectors, SIDS and AIRPROXes. Choose first sectors, flying in the RHS on a Sunday morning, bored out of your mind. Choose sitting listening to Heathrow ATIS, wondering why the hell you didn't take that job in computers.

Choose life. Choose the RAF. Choose a Firefly. Choose wings made of metal and an engine that can do inverted. Choose a runway, choose a JEFTS, a QFI, EFT, a PFG and PIFG. Choose passing your FHT. Choose a Squadron, a multi-million pound fast jet with more hot air than a Harrier Pilot. Choose an overseas det. Choose the Queen's Shilling, CSAS, JDAM and AWACS. Choose Single seat, flying alone on a Sunday morning, worked out of your mind. Choose sitting in the pointy end listening to Wagner, wondering why the hell civvies pay to fly.

[FEBA]

Choose sitting in the pointy end listening to Wagner, wondering why the hell civvies pay to fly.
Top Stuff, thanks for posting this. I only wish it was on the notice board of 1015 Sqn ATC when I was a cadet. I would never have joined the Army !
Thanks
FEBA

[Flytest]

I did 12 years in the Navy, and had a ball, I was married, had a son, and yeah at times it wasn't so hot, but on the whole, if my boy wants to join when he's older then I'm right behind him. For those of you whose face didn't fit, deal with it and stop being bitter. I have worked for various companies since I left the mob as a flight test engineer, and I still have the separation, the long hours and all that stuff. I thought the forces were brilliant, so to all of you who left feeling bitter, and that the whole service was against you because your face didn't fit.. well, you missed the whole point, maybe you just weren't the forces type, should have got a job selling insurance.

And to the bloke with the ranch in 15 acres.. good on you mate, but I doubt the boys at the ministry are losing sleep over your victory, move on.

[European Crash]

I have spent almost 18 years serving in 2 air forces and generally had the best time of my life. All careers have down-side: I see this in my current appointment when I deal with 'bright young things' in the Foreign Office, who work long hours and make big decisions, working for a pittance in central London.

'Face-fitting' is important in all organisations, and although I still chaff at the relative importance paid to involvment in secondary duties in respect to promotion, things have improved considerably; at least one's spouse is no longer referred to on the OJAR (unlike the F1369).

Test question: Yes, I would encourage my son to join the Services, and yes, probably as an officer. However, I would not be disappointed if he chose not to follow such a career, indeed provided he is happy in his choice, so be it.

There are still considerable advantages in joining the RAF (I can't comment on the other Services) and the bellyaching expressed in this thread is not new. No organisation stands still, and people's perspectives, ambitions and needs change with time. That is not the fault of the RAF.

[Feck]

I've been in a mere 7 years. I love it. I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone who can take a joke.

It appears from a lot of the above posts that when my inevitable career-long shafting takes hold, I'll move into the civil sector a bitter man. But until then I'm determined to enjoy everything to the fullest, doing my best not to screw up at the speed of heat, with a bunch of like-minded mates. Life doesn't get any better.

War was over-rated, the hours are long and the thanks are well-hidden, but if I had my time again I'd do it again in an instant.

We are defined by our experiences. If yours have been bad, don't forget that there are a lot of opportunities in the forces that others might be lucky enough to capitalise on. Granted, it's as much to do with luck as anything, but someone's got to be lucky.

Tell me punk, do you feel lucky?

:E

[FEBA]

Do you know I've read this thread time and time again looking for an endorsement of my own beliefs. I've noticed that most if not all that have posted positive notices are either Navy or Army. All of the negative contributors are serving or ex RAF. Now why is that do you suppose???
What's happened to the RAF that makes you all so miserable? Is it that PC governement pressure is trying to make you run like the military wing of BA?

[Echo 5]

If my lad wanted to join any of the forces I would give him every encouragement,providing of course that he didn't have the notion to become a Loadmaster. He would soon tire of making coffee for the front seat boys.

[Feck]

I is an happy crab!

And all the crabs I know are happy! I can't believe there are all that many unhappy front-line pilot crabs. OK, front-line fast-jet pilot crabs. They'd have said.

"The best thing you'll ever do is join up. The second best thing you'll ever do is leave."

Can't help feeling there's a lot of contributors post-second-best-thing.

[jockspice]

I will encourage him or her to do whatever he or she wants (maybe a little less enthusiastic for boy or girl band!), but would be more than happy with HMF.

By way of self experience, which is all anyone has to offer, my time so far in the Andrew has been a blast. Any of the forces are a good choice, but I will tell my kids to be wary of those they will encounter who complain constantly about their lot, but will do nothing to change it.:ok:

2 bits of advice to the kids -
1. Chase your dreams - no one will do it for you.
2. If you don't enjoy it, then leave and find something you do.

[You want it when?]

Got two ankle snappers now. I would support either one of them in their decisions for future life. After all it is their life, and not yours, just becuase you are frustrated and long for the old days (what old fart doesn't?) doesn't mean that they should sell themselves short...

It's one chance, and as Peter Gunston (sp) said "I joined the RAF, I wanted to fly, and the Queen had more aircraft than I did".

Besides - evan forgeting the whole honour, pride, country thing it's a good trade to enter.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Would I encourage my children to join the military???
B&**%y oath I would!! Saves ME paying for their education:} :} :}

[Plebian]

Having done 18 years I am one of those who still enjoys what I do. The Service is not what it was but it is still, from anecdotal evidence from colleagues who have moved on, a good employer. The biggest drawback to a military career is the domestic instability and I would point that out to anyone thinking of a military career.

Whilst we have lost sports afternoons and duties come round more often as the Service shrinks there are still many benefits to a Service career. Take a look at our Civil Sevice brethren or even most of the contractors emloyed on Service units today and ask them about pay and benefits for a start. Then add in sports facilities (albeit in your own time nowadays) and socialising - which has also moved on. There is still lots to be gained which most modern employers (although I cant speak for airline pilots) would not even consider providing.

Having done 18 years I am one of those who still enjoys what I do. The Service is not what it was but it is still, from anecdotal evidence from colleagues who have moved on, a good employer. The biggest drawback to a military career is the domestic instability and I would point that out to anyone thinking of a military career.

Whilst we have lost sports afternoons and duties come round more often as the Service shrinks there are still many benefits to a Service career. Take a look at our Civil Sevice brethren or even most of the contractors emloyed on Service units today and ask them about pay and benefits for a start. Then add in sports facilities (albeit in your own time nowadays) and socialising - which has also moved on. There is still lots to be gained which most modern employers (although I cant speak for airline pilots) would not even consider providing.

I have a 15 year old son who has made his own mind up that he wishes to follow me into the Service. I have neither encouraged nor discouraged this but have made sure he is aware of all the pros and cons of doing so. I have also made sure that he doesnt shut any educational doors in the event that he changes his mind later. He is committed to joining the Service and I will encourage him to follow his chosen career becaus it is what HE wants. I would have encouraged any other choice (well most) he made with just as much enthusiasm if a little less inside knowledge.

To the apparent whingers - Life moves on as do working conditions and practices. For everyone who has "made it" happily after leaving the Service I suspect there is another person who hasnt. It' all a matter of personal choice

[BEagle]

There were no 'sports afternoons' in 1985 - or even 1975. Just people having to cover for the jockstrappers who thought that it was OK to pursue their sporting hobbies in the Firm's time......which was possibly OK when the Firm was big enough.

Which now it isn't.

[Muppet Leader]

My son is now fifteen (and a bit).
6 foot 3 and filling out quite nicely.

He can do what he wants – I’m not going to argue with him.

But seriously folks;
He is now in his second year of the Air Training Corps, and has just got back from summer camp, full of himself.
All I get from him is “I want to do what my Dad did”.
This may be a slightly blinkered view, however, I can’t find fault with his choice.

My 22 was up last year, and yes, there have been times that I cursed, swore and wanted to go home. I’ve dug holes, sat in them with ice-cold water up to my chest while people tried to kill me. (It all gets easy after that). I’ve done gate guard, and stood there at 3 in the morning in the pouring rain, orderly bod in the guardroom and all the other hundred and one other onerous tasks, which must be completed.

I’ve moaned and complained about the food, the scribblies, the accommodation, the hours, the glorious leaders and so forth, but the times that I have enjoyed, and the memories that have been accumulated, places seen and things done, far outweigh the bad times.
I guess it all depends on your chosen profession. (And your sense of humour).

However, you would be very hard pushed, in the civilian world, to be paid extra, to fly all over the world, stay in some of the grandest hotels, dine on the finest cuisine and get bladdered with some of the finest people who would give their lives for you.
And no I’m not being melodramatic, I have 27 “deletions” in the back of my diary, I speak from experience.

All in all, if I could turn back the clock and start again with a fresh body, free of injuries and aches and pains, would I do it again?

You betcha.

Where do I sign?
:ok:

[Jordan D]

Its a shame this sentiment isn't repeated at my place!

I've just done 4 years in the CCF, and loved every moment of it, all 4 Summer Camps (including AC2K - what a time!), and have made my way up the promotions to be no. 2 in the section ... Hoping to join the UAS at Edinburgh, and want to go further.

However, my mum (its always the mum's!), doesn't want me to have a thing to do with the RAF, now I'm off to Uni. She's refused to let me apply for a 6th Form Scholarship and now a Uni Bursary, and is trying to persuade me not to join the UAS.

Well that's parents for you ...

Jordan

[fobotcso]

I'm strangely touched by what you say about your situation, Jordan D. You sound genuinely disappointed.

I stick to what I said here back in February. I wouldn't encourage any of my four offspring to join the military. But neither would I prevent them if they were set on giving it a go.

We parents should trust our kids. We can't live their lives for them and at your age (18 ish?) it's time to let them follow their instincts.

It sounds as though there may be a bit of financial pressure here. Only you can judge whether to jump ship or not.

[kippermate]

Far too much stuff for me to read it all and I don't have any kids anyway, but I'd just like to add my twopence. As a UAS QFI I encourage all your children all to join up; starting at Hull University tommorrow. So don't worry if you have become disillusioned with your lot, don't dispair. I will simply tell them that they too could become part of the two winged master race, or even a bluntie if their eyesight is not up to scratch, and expect to have upto 300 applicants for our 30-odd places.

:ok:

[Flaender]

My wife and I owe the AirForce the best times of our lives.
I also owe the AirForce the worst time of my life.
Fortunately that worst time only lasted a year at a base I absolutely hated and the best times lasted 8 so far and counting.
Like someone stated before: Life's what you make it and you reap what you sow.
And all those other good cliche's.
:}

[Jordan D]

You sound genuinely disappointed.

Mainly because I am ... its something I would like to do, but the problem lies with my mum being a first generation immigrant into the UK, so I'm the only one who's been brought up here, and she still has some views from her youth abroad.

It sounds as though there may be a bit of financial pressure here.

Thankfully there isn't, but when you're at Uni, some more money is never a bad thing!

Jordan

[Hueymeister]

Yep..I would..it's not all doom and gloom..and it still has things to offer.

[Sparky]

There are times when the job is great, the only drawback these days is the constant penny pinching in one department and the overspending in the other, needless to say in the wrong departments. The career has become a job no more no less, its just we dont do 9 till 5 and we get drunk all over the world. But if you can put up with working for people who only have their own careers in mind and who dont really give a toss about you, then let you children join up, they will soon find out for themselves.

[Flap62]

Jordan D

Of the many qualities that are valued in the services, maturity and the ability to make difficult decisions and to carry them through are highly prized. Time to step up to the plate and make some difficult decisions young man. If you ever make it to Wings day, your mum's heart will be bursting with pride. It is the best job in the world, bar none !

[squire]

Those poor blighters in the trenches may disagree:}

[Jordan D]

Duly noted Flap62 ... am going to join the UAS once I finish the paperwork today (I hope!)

Jordan

[aluminium persuader]

I was a VR(T) Flt Lt until recently, and am still a civvy ATCO at a mil unit. I have actively encouraged youngsters over the last 15 yrs or so to join, and I still would, provided they are joining for the right reasons and with the right expectations. It's not just a job, it's an entire way of life, and for the astonishing amount of opportunities and experiences on offer you have to add to the balance the things you won't like. Believe me, life is not always that rosy on the other side!

[fobotcso]

Jordan D; forgive late response to your points.

Remember Arnie (I don't think I can spell Schwarchenegger and I'm not getting up to check! :O )? He's a first generation immigrant and look where he's ended up!

The very best of luck to you. It's the best fun you'll ever have with your clothes on. And, who knows where ambition and passion will take you?

[BEagle]

Unlike Arnie - who had to borrow "Yor bootz, your clodes und yor modor zykel" in T2 if memory serves!;)

Seriously though, although old farts like me have left for reasons various, there must shurely shtill be some fun to be had? Or is everyone a grey clone these days? Are 'characters' still allowed? Or is there a GASO against that now?

[I_stood_in_the_door]

rise above the rest. be all u can be. yardy yardy!

encourage your kids to be just so and let them be .

isitd

[ratt]

I don't think I'd stop my kids from joining the Armed Forces. I would certainly expect them research any job they were interested in be it Mil or not.

What I would advise them though is to realise when it's not going to work for them. There is an element of 'face fitting' and also a string of poor postings can have a detrimental effect on the best person’s promotion.

I see too many folk in my trade (ATC) put all their eggs in one basket and then leave bitter and twisted. But then I see many of my civvie mates getting made redundant at a similar point.

A short Commission I would recommend to anyone with a lean towards the military but not wanting the commitment.

[Jordan D]

Thanks for all your support/tips ... there is a careers fair today, so I will be going along to see the RAF stand.

Jordan

[JessTheDog]

Only for a short-term engagement, to save some money for university fees/mortgage deposit etc, and to gain a transferable skill.

There will be no point in anyone who joins post-2005 staying for a full career, if the pensions bill passes its third reading or gets through the Lords. Immediate Pension will be replaced by an Early Departure Payment of half the value.

Get in, get a transferable skill and some money, and get out. This administration has no interest in looking after its people, they have to look out for themselves first.:mad:

[Red Line Entry]

Good point about joining before the new pension rules kick in. Those joining before Apr 05 can get onto the "old" scheme. This might not seem important in the flushes of youth, but if you end up getting out at age 40 at, say, wg cdr rank, then the annual payment under the old system is currently £16,070 per year but under the new scheme will be only £7,952. Up to the age of 55, the difference will add up to tens of thousands of pounds.

Worth thinking about if you're on the verge of applying but are considering taking 6 or 12 months out before joining up!!


Figures taken from:

http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/new_afps/edps.htm

[Spotted Dog]

Both my kids expressed an interest in joining up and while I have not tried to stop them, I have asked them to think very hard why they want to take that route. On the positive side they have seen me over the years travel around the World at the Queen's expense (34 countries, at last count) having a great time, going on the odd exped and generally doing a job that I loved. On the downside they also saw me only at weekends for many years and not at all when on 4 month dets while they were growing up, with all the accompanying stresses and strains on family life. They also questioned what the role of the Services is now that our Cold War enemies are our friends and why expeditionary warfare is such a 'good thing'. I tried very hard not to show my growing dissatisfaction with being overstretched, undervalued and poorly lead, both by our airships and politicians, and the way the Treasury and accountants now rule our lives more than ever before. Also, the cost-cutting move to contractorisation and replacing Servicemen with civil servants in staff posts.

My daughter went for selection with the Navy and RAF. She thoroughly enjoyed the Navy's process which was all positive, but came away totally disillusioned by the RAF's "what makes you think you're good enough to join us" attitude. After a great deal of thought she dropped the Navy, became a teacher and now gets much job satisfaction putting enthusiasm into young kids. My son is off to university in September to study engineering and hopes to join the UAS - but if he takes up a flying career after graduation, it will probably not be with the RAF.

As for me, I have PVR'd after 30+ years. No bitterness, no regrets but much sadness.

[BATCO]

1000 times yes. (or I'd have to admit to the smart alec little:mad: :mad: that I'd made a mistake). Who me, SHURELY SHOME MISHTAKE!

Oh...and I almost forgot not only is it THE BEST JOB IN THE WORLD (and too good for Bliar, Buff and Gordon the pick pocket et al) it's one in the eye for all the lesbo, gay, equal opp, outreach etc :mad: !

If I get him in do I get a recruiting bonus?