Help me Help You

[little red train]

Cheesy I know but

I Pay Thousands for Groundschool, Tens of thousands for Flight School, I have to pay for all my transport and accommodation around the country. When I get ill (from all the stress) I have to pay for all my treatment; I study 6.5 Days a week, resulting in no ability to hold a job of any description. Yet have to pay VATon virtually everything, and have no recognition from the government for my efforts to attain a job that will result in considerable tax revenue.

However.

If I attended College 2 days a week, learning to paint walls, I would receive subsidized food, transport receive free healthcare, be eligible for Student Loans, and actually get paid to attend!!! All courtesy of the taxpayers (see above), resulting in a qualification that would end in far lower revenue to the treasury.

Don’t get me wrong on this I’m all for social justice and Education is invaluable to all, however I am currently in the position to meet a MP who is interested and yet unaware of these issues.

I also wish to point out the JAA/CAA issues that is currently a huge burden on all students, It appears to me they have no ombudsman, and are a totally self regulating monopoly, a topical issue in light of the SQA fiasco in Scotland.

Basically I’m asking for input.

What are your Troubles, worries, grievances of the whole system, Ideas comments and experiences can either be posted hear or E-mailed in confidence to [email protected]

Thanks in Advance
Red



[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 11 December 2000).]

[Richie Coulson]

Couldnt agree more. I know of a guy who is doing a Microsoft computer course and has received 80% of the fees back http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif. Am I right in thinking that our courses are no longer eligible for NVQ tax relief??

Absolutely ridiculous, come on chancellor, sort it out.

Rich

[Ham Phisted]

Cost of achieving "Frozen" ATPL has escalated through the roof since JAR was introduced. Fuel costs have soared and NVQ tax relief has been abolished. So all these factors leave us exactly where then?

[Adamant]

Government's new "Individual Learning Account" scheme (the £150 voucher element and the more generous training subsidy element) specifically excludes commercial flying training. I argued the point and was told that flying, even for the purpose of obtaining a commercial licence, is officially considered to be a hobby or interest. It's a minor example, but demonstrates the need to educate and lobby the policy makers.

[little red train]

Great Guys, This is what I need & more experiences would be great.

NVQ was abolished, I was a lucky one to get in early enought. 23% off all you flying cost?. godsend, even then it's still a huge struggle. It also came with a huge manual, that could be filled in in parrallel with training. resulting in a NVQ qualification. What the He|| was the ATPL then??? It is not seen in the goverments Eyes as a qualification. there are universitys offering degrees in; the life and times of david becham (If thats how you spell it those with a PHd in Dave please do tell), Science of Surfing and the Lryical content of the Prodigy!!

London School of Bussiness Estimate a 11.3% increase in productivity over industry average after purchase of a Coperate Jet, plus all the Ground staff, fuel tax, manufactering jobs, etc etc etc... 11.3%!!!

Not wishing to blow the trumpet too much, pilots make a huge difference to the economy, time 2 jag took note.

[Bengal]

Damn right Red. I've experienced both sides. Left school - didn't have the bottle to follow "the dream," ended up doing some nonsense computing course which I hated. Did a full time course [2.5 days per week] got £2500 grant per year + all course fees paid + travelling expenses - I was sitting pretty.

Like most students all that money, & I mean all that money got pissed away - while I got an HND in pub sports at the local.

Then came the gift flight at the local club....and the debt has been clocking up ever since.
I missed the NVQ, have to travel from NE Scotland to England everytime I want to sit an exam, initial medical etc. Ignoring the horrendous cost of the actual training, the cost of just getting a licence or rating issued is a bloody disgrace.

To compare, a friend of mine is a rally driver. His medical - £45, allows him to race in any event in the UK. For the initial Class1 we pay £400 [+cost of trip to London], hell I'm away to spend another £64 on a Night Rating next week. It's a fargin disgrace.

Sorry to ramble on but I am deeply disillusioned with the whole system. We huff & we puff, write the odd nasty letter, but at the end of the day we still cough up because we're following the dream - and we'll do anything to get there. We don't get help from the government we get hurdles.

One pissed off Wannabee.

------------------
I Love the smell of Kerosene in the morning, smells like.... Destiny

[Ham Phisted]

Another piece of nonsense was the abolition of the BCPL which allowed instructors to build time without investing phenomenal amounts of money on full frozen ATPL. And does anybody really think that having a JAR licence from the UK is actually going to be able to apply for a job in, for instance, France?

Let's file a load of differences with the JAA:

Bring back national licences (who cares if I can't get a job in Lichtenstein?).

Bring back national exams (written by someone who speaks your own Mother tongue).

Bring back the BCPL.

Bring back licences for life ie not 5 year issues.

Bring back tax relief on bona fide training including hrs building where required.

If we're stuck with JAR:

Publish the damn questions.
Get rid of the extraneous nonsense in, for example, the Air Law paper.

And err, what was the question.....

[WX Man]

GOOD CALL!

I haven't got anything to add... it's all been said. I just want to reinforce the original points made.

So, you pay 22% tax when you earn the money, and 17% when you spend it on flight training. This is a huge injustice, considering all those tens of thousands of students on government-funded training schemes. In particular, the university issue (not so prevalent now that tuition fees have been introduced).

I did have some communication with Lord MacDonald and another senior civil servant about the amount of cack there is in the exams. Pointed out that if billions of passengers are flown safely by American qualified pilots every year, where is the advantage of having a different (and more expensive to administer) training scheme? Lord M. was not interested in the issue, and the senior civil servant just fobbed me off with a whole load of stuff about EU integration.

I agree that it would be very nice to harmonise licenses. However, combining the most pointless aspects of all the ground exams is not the way to go. The way to go? Take the FAA exams, Anglicise them, and bish-bash-bosh, syllabus of the future.

These are my two biggest problems in the industry. So much so that I am very, very, very keen to emigrate (hopefully to the USA). Fortunately, the government is paying for my degree, which (for some obscure reason) will give me browny-points when I come to fill in an 'I want to live in your country' form.

[GASH !]

Why do the CAA charge so much to put a rating on a license ?

£60+ to put a night rating on a license is a f@ckin disgrace. What is the charge for ?

I need to change address soon. Anyone know what the fee is to have my license changed ? :)

[Crashlanding]

I too had been speaking to an MP about this, he was intrested as he used to fly but even though its now a euopean licence and european countries get a discount vat releif etc. its been harmonied so that is still your courties govening body that has final say to tax relif etc. Also the reason we now have to do 800 ground school is because some other countries have to do this, so we also, but they get there fees paid for. Its amazing who the govenment makes money.

If you look at the average cost to become a JAA ATP/ME/IR pilot the govenment will now make 10 Million extra for each 100 pilots. There not silly are they.

------------------
The approach looked good, the landing was F****** awful.

[DoWeHaveLiftOff?]

Hi Wannabes,

I admit this is an expensive profession but maybe in the long term will pay back.

I'm about to take an xtension for my mortgage to borrow another £25,000.00 and go for a part time job just to keep that running. It is bloody expensive. But what worries me is if we pay all this and either fail (God Forbid)or dont get a job, wot do we do?

I suppose another thing for the higher charges could be that no Tom, Dick and Harry from the street goes for it. It is a responsible job and takes alotta money and dedication to go for it.

Be confident and God will be with u (as long as u talk to him often and be best frinds).

DoWeHaveLiftOff?

[Flypuppy]

The NVQ discount was so heavily abused by people and flying schools to fund cheap PPL's (there were also people doing sport diving courses and getting NVQ discount). As far as I can remember there was only one airline that organised the final stage of the Level 4 award, but I am not sure if anyone actually recieved the qualification.

DoWeHaveLiftOff, your point about the costs keeping every Tom Dick and Harry out of the cockpit. Train operating companies have to pay for driver training for their staff, which amounts to about GBP60,000 per driver, train drivers have an equally responsible job as far as public safety goes. Funny thing is you never see ads for "learn to be a train driver for only 25,000 pounds" anywhere.

One of my friends is a train driver, he is earning around GBP23,000 p/a (not including overtime). He could transfer to another train operating company and earn more.

So the question remains why do we have so little financial help in our training? The answer probably lies in the fact that politicians don't take much notice of such a small group of voters (who are likely to be middle class, right of centre) and also the airlines are happy with the fact that someonelse is footing, at least part, of their training bill.

Under the Dutch tax system, any training for any vocational training is liable to a tax rebate at the moment, but the burden of proof lies with the applicant to show that it is not just for fun that the training is being carried out.

Dunno if any of this rambling helps.

[Flypuppy]

Check this thread out as well
<A HREF="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/011510.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/011510.html</A>

[jollygreengiant]

Imagine that it costs thousands to train for your dream job, you know that you will work and study hard, be diligent, work the worst shifts when initially qualified and you will be responsible for thousands of lives every year.

The best bit is the government pays for it all, then after a couple of years improving your skills you quit for the private sector or bugger off abroad to work where you skills are highly valued - you are a doctor or dentist.

I know that it is an extreme comparison, but a little help would be nice from the government - lets be honest, they paid all my fees to study history for four years without complaining and they are now paying for me to attend some computer courses.

If you want the government to listen to you, and make the system a little fairer, then you will need the support of pilots, not wannabees. But if they had to pay for it then what stops them thinking we shouldn't as well, and there are always going to be enough people willing to risk the massive debts to follow a dream - therefore, no risk of a major pilot shortage in the near future.

The government will listen if the press are interested, you make enough noise and you have public support. Can't see that happening in this case.

I hope you have more success than my pessimism on the issue would indicate, any government assistance would be a start.

[RVR800]

Problem..

1. JAA requirements take more time
2. JAA requirements are more expensive
3. NVQ is gone
3. Fuel has gone up

The advantage is that we can work
across Europe (Air France) and its a lot
safer and its more efficient

I think not

Q: Who asked the CAA To implement all this JAA nonsense ?

A: Its all Eurodriven one bureaucracy driving another - its bureaucracy out of control. Its only function is to provide more jobs for more bureaucracy.

At NICE Mr Blair signed up to losing the Euro Industrial Policy veto so expect even more of this CR@p in the future.....






[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 12 December 2000).]

[PFO]

The reason it costs so much and the tax breaks have all gone can be explained by micro-economics.

Simply put - supply and demand - too many of us out here and THEY KNOW IT!!!

PFO

[thefridge]

Hi PFO

Could not agree more, Its the usual system of supply and demand. If there are plenty of potential pilots willing to fund their dreams then the Govermentment will sit back and rake in the extra cash.

Question? Are all the other European countries also intrducing the JAA regulations, and will all the potential new members also have to introduce JAA? or is the UK the only one "leading the way"

[QNH 1013]

Ham Phisted makes a good point about bringing back the BCPL.
As the BCPL was a national licence, and national licences are allowed even with the mind boggling JAA "harmanisation" there is no reason to prevent the CAA re-introducing it. The fact that it was so popular, surely shows that it was a sensible solution to many people's needs.

Heck, the CAA is bringing in a National PPL, so they could bring in a new National BCPL.
Is there any (valid - not administrative or emotive) reason to not reintroduce the BCPL and the corresponding class 2 medical? Or am I just showing too much common sense?

One thing is certain....a new BCPL won't happen unless "organisations" eg AOPA, lobby the CAA for it. Unfortunately AOPA is fairly expensive for wannabies (about the cost of a CRP5 every year) at a time when every penny counts. Perhaps they would get more members if they gave a 75% "student" discount until you are in a position to earn some money from your flying.

Oh dear, time to stop rambling.

[Believe]

Ditto the above two posts.
Going back to the first post on this thread, how many people do you know who travel the length of the country, spending hundreads of pounds on aptitude tests or thousands of pounds on their own training to become a wall painter (etc. other jobs etc.)?
We're all bent on this thing and will do it with NVQ or not. SUPPLY an DEMAND. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for making it hard for us all, just being realistic.
If the economy of this country was being threatened by a shortage of pilots, then I'm sure Tony would be scribbling cheques to us all willy-nilly.
It's not fair but neither is life.

[RVR800]

Why not retain the UK CPL/ATPL as well

If people need to migrate to other
European countries to get work then
- they can pay - they choose

I suspect that not many will take this
option as most people dont speak French
German in the UK and other countries
will need this - which makes the whole exercise a waste of time

Is the training of Dental Students going
to be harmonised throughout Europe ?

I think not.

[WX Man]

Hmmm, Dentists, interesting. One of my mates is a dental student.

So, your tax money pays for him to be trained. He gets a grant, out of your tax money.

Whilst he is being trained, he gets lectures on how to set up in private practice, and how to avoid working in the NHS! why? Becuase in private practice, you can do less of the same work, charge more for it, and have the same amount of money at the end of the year. And more time to play golf (they all play golf, BTW).

There is a shortage of NHS Dentists (because Dentists like (a) money and (b) golf), yet thousands of applicants (ok, hundreds) for every place, every year. Yet you don't see the government going any way towards introducing the full charging of tuition fees to Dentists (they will pay no more than £5000 in tuition fees at University. The government makes up the £55,000 difference).

Dentists are, indeed, under no obligation to go and work for the government in the NHS (and, contrary to popular belief, neither are Doctors (training for them= £110,000 for the newer style BMC approved courses, such as that at Birmingham and Leeds)).

What bugs me is just the sheer difference in reward/ help offered to highly capable, motivated people depending on their profession. As I said before, the only reason I'm aiming for a 1st is because it will give me 30 points (out of 110 required) so that I can Get the he1l out of here

[little red train]

There are a few Key points coming through here, I’d like to try and bring them out with a few comments. Any other suggestion, do let me know

Lack of National Licenses/License Choice

C-152 or B-747-400 the same license is required. NAA’s have the ability to issue national licenses. The CAAs half hearted, knee-jurk response of a CPL(R) is still more than required by some, has no upgrade options, where as a UK CPL, flown to ‘lesser standards’ has the ability to be upgraded to other JAR license at a later date. When asked on the benefits of the JAA licenses, I was told it would allow me to fly any European A/C anywhere in Europe. Well, I like to live and work in Scotland the county I was born in; I speak no other language & don’t intend to learn one. I’m I in the minority of UK pilots?
The NPPL is due to others footwork, AOPA are the driving force, and I’d be interested as to what they think about doing a BCPL. But at the end of the Day what the He|| do we pay the CAA huge sums of Dosh for? Not everyone here want to fly big tin around the world.

General Inflation if flying costs is totally out of step with inflation

Fuel, Transport (less airports & grater distance from civilization), Excessive Red Tape and JAA Charges have seen the cost rocket. There has been nothing to take this into account

CAA Charges

Yes, They are totally unrealistic and unnecessary, where is the competition and Regulation? Previously before JAA, monthly 2 page spreads of letters on this issue in Pilot and Flyer Mags with the usual comparison against the FAA, were met with the stock response of “Its cheaper in the States because of the Economy of Scale, the UK simply isn’t that big.” The UK is now part of this wonderful JAA, very large scale, yet prices have soared. The stated objective of the JAA was to simplify things and reduce the Cost of Training!

Fridge – Yes it was meant to be pan-European, UK & Netherlands went headfirst, the problems were then blatantly obvious and all the other countries are now sitting happy saying “we’ll see how things pan out”. France is having trouble implementing law due to the differences between Norman and Anglo Law, one says what you can do, the other what you cant. My question would be who thought about if integration could be achieved. – It can’t and isn’t at the moment

To many pilots

I’ll whinge about that when I’ve got a licenses, It’s the hardship of getting one that’s my problem(s). Another suggestion stop closing our bl**dy airports!

Another issue not mentioned but I feel pertinent.
Recognition of an ATPL/CPL/BCPL as a Qualification.

Many people with a ticket and a Degree say the ATPL was just as demanding if not more so. However, with an ATPL I have no degree status etc. Why not? They did with the now dead NVQ, but it was run in parallel to the License with huge amounts of pointless forms. (1 NVQ certificate was issued to a Virgin Training Captain I believe). Degrees are often not job related, yet open doors; Pilot surplus, get a different job but be recognized for your previous achievements properly. Also student status when studying would open up entire benefits as highlighted above, as well as simplify life rather than constantly explaining an ‘oddball’ situation on every from and to every official you meet.

I’m trying to concentrate the feeling and issues for a meeting with the Minister on Tuesday; your continued input is very welcome.

Red

[sd]

PFO etc

With respect, your supply and demand argument is.. complete and utter bull****.

Right now the number of students wishing to undertake a vetenary science degree (private sector) outstrips the number of places available by a factor of about 22 to 1. Are potential vets therefore asked to pay their fees in full, plus VAT and forego access to a student loan, free dental and optical treatment etc etc…?..I DON’T THINK SO!!
Just how many fine arts , sculpture, architecture etc graduates does this country need??? Here in Scotland you can now do a degree in bagpiping!!!.God forbid we need any more of that!
Do not for one second think that our esteemed Government has thought that deeply about your chosen proffesion, and employed anything remotely like a supply and demand criteria!!
The fact of the matter is that flying a plane is seen as a hobby. In the Chancellors statement, when NVQ was withdrawn, flying was banded with scuba diving, and 'not seen as something that the tax payer should subsidise'.
Make a noise…see your MP, your local enterprise Board etc etc.
Nothing will be achieved by moaning amoungst ourselves.

Another thing which should be probed is the CAA’s accountability. How can these guys get away with such incompetence(ATPL exams). When the DVLA made a mistake recently with ONE question in the written exams all hell broke loose, and ‘students’ were compensated. Just look at what is going on with the ATPL’s and NOTHING is being done. Questions have to be asked about the competence of this shower!!!

[RVR800]

LRT - I applaud you efforts

The primary function of the CAA SRG is to regulate safety

Mobility of Flight crew is NOT a safety related issue

What other Profession such as Law, Medicine Veterinary Science are being standardised
in this way - NONE as far as I know

Are driving instructors working to a
European syllabus

Why are pilots different ?

Its because they are regulated by a body which is operating out of mandate

Nobody wanted this
Nobody voted for it
Nobody needs it

The correct international body for standardisation of cross border FCL
issues is ICAO not JAA which is extra
bureaucracy and cost for us all

Oh how silly of me - I forgot - havent
the Americans got something to do with
ICAO and we have special weather in Europe which needs an extra layer of bureaucracy

Is the MP Tory or Labour ?





[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 14 December 2000).]

[little red train]

Flypuppy – thanks for the tread link downloaded the government report;

I’ve trawled through most of the paper; there is a little bit of interesting information mainly on the tax side of things.

Quote:

We commend British airlines for the steps they have taken to address the anticipated increase in the number of pilots who have reached or will shortly reach retirement age. Nevertheless, we regard the situation with some concern since we believe that it is potentially a safety critical matter. Therefore, we recommend that the Safety Regulation Group should conduct regular reviews of the training and recruitment regimes put in place by the airlines to deal with the problem, and should publish the results of the reviews in its Annual Report (paragraph 46).

British airlines have the prime responsibility to develop recruitment and training policies to deal with the professional pilot retirement profile; the Government and the Safety Regulation Group also commend their efforts in this respect.

The Safety Regulation Group is aware of the potential effect of the retirement profile on overall experience levels. It continually monitors the training standards of all Air Operator Certificate holders, as part of its ongoing oversight programme, so as to ensure that appropriate standards are both set and achieved. In addition, airlines are required to detail, in their Operations Manuals; minimum crew experience levels for specific posts. The Safety Regulation Group would not expect to be involved in the recruitment policies of airlines which are solely the concern of the airlines.


So all us self-funding wannabes are totally misguided! The ALL airlines are planning to fill ALL positions with sponsorship. As you can see the government and CAA are totally aware and feel it’s not their problem. There is no mention of non-airline jobs for which we all need the same training and license (due to CAA short sightedness). Also where experience would be gained from after the 509 coarse is an issue not tackled, as they appear to think only airlines fly aircraft.

As for tax:


Quote:

(p) We recommend that the Government should take steps to ensure that access to training and practice for General Aviation pilots is not unduly limited, either by cost or by planning constraints. We believe that all pilots should be given incentives to undergo training and, accordingly, recommend that VAT should not be charged for appropriate training courses. We recommend that the Safety Regulation Group should re-examine the regulatory burden it places on General Aviation pilots and others, to ensure that the cost of meeting regulations does not inhibit pilots from keeping in current practice (paragraph 54).


The Government considers that it is primarily for the industry to negotiate and establish adequate training facilities. The Safety Regulation Group will consider constructive proposals to lessen the cost burden placed on general aviation but, to date, no formal propositions have been lodged via the SRG General Aviation Consultative Committee. There is as yet no evidence of a direct causal link between the availability of training facilities in UK and the incident rates for General Aviation.
The Government does not accept that VAT should no longer be charged for pilot training courses. Most, if not all, pilot training supplied in the UK is liable to VAT at the standard rate because it is provided by fully commercial, profit making concerns. This does not provide problems for companies sending their pilots on courses as they can reclaim the tax charged as it relates to their business activity. One or two instances have been brought to Customs and Excise attention that involve individuals undertaking pilot training who are not registered for VAT so they have to bear the tax. As VAT is a tax on the final customer this could not be altered without infringing EC VAT Directives and creating distortions with other providers of commercial training. A VAT tribunal has heard a case on this point and ruled that pilot training is a taxable activity.


Again, if your not sponsored you have obviously been misguided by all the commercial schools advertising to the public in the back of Flyer, Pilot and Flight are solely at the disposal for businesses. However the last statement intrigues me, Could I set my self up as the “Teach the poor boy to fly Flight school co plc ltd.” then sub-contract all training to schools and claim VAT back? But this situation does hark back to my argument to get ATPLs seen as QUALIFICATIONS, the sole use for and ATPL is to get paid for flying, (how those three words send tingling sensations around my body) As is Train Driving, which is now in private trains on private track run by private companies!

Another very worrying part of the report was over concerns of the general inability of the JAA to be able to do anything and the CAA and Goverment support for the EASA, could we see an entire new license soon, Ahh b*ll*ks!

As for the pilot shortage, there could be another huge thread on that alone, and there has already been many. However; recent media news, BALPA conferences and even this rather tunnel-visioned report suggest growth requiring more pilots.

SD –Language!, but good points many of my friend are in Aberdeen doing “marine biology” with no idea of what there doing (other than going to the student bars nightly!)

RVR800 – couldn’t agree more, the CAA set the standards, why is it only they who can say if you have met them? In the USA private companies perform Ground testing, I did my instruments on a PC in a flight school on the same airport as me, $60 marked in 30seconds of completion, and the option of as many free re-attempts as I wanted in 6months, even if you pass and want to up you mark!

The MP is a Scottish Opposition Minister, he is also my local MP and is interested but unaware of the situation, there are two main parts to my woes, poor support whilst we study & the Crap CAA, whilst the CAA is a English issue, questions can be directed Westminster, and addressed to higher up the foodchain in the CAA bypassing the pleb level. He seams willing to help in both issues.

[Unusual Attitude]

I reckon we should take the French method of making the Government listen.

So if we all agree to park our Cessna's and Pipers on the runway and refuse to move them........... ;)

Seriously though, something needs to be done about this but what ??
As has already been said, the government is throwing cash at what can only be described as "wasters" doing degrees in stupid useless subjects.
Meanwhile we have to struggle to pay for our training which gets more expensive everytime I work it out, yet getting no help from the government.

The problem is surely that we are so few that they cant be bothered to listen to us.
We cant expect support from the general public, most are fairly ignorant of what we have to go through to obtain an ATPL and if you started explaining our plight they would quickly lose interest due to the complexities.

So what can we do ??, continue to keep on bending over and taking it ??

I'm just hoping I don't near the end of my training and have the goalposts suddenly shifted again to the tune of £20k.

Anyway its late and I'm grumpy....rant....rant....rant......

PS I actually bumped into a bunch of Marine Biology students in a bar in Aberdeen the other night. They seemed to be enjoying spending our taxes.......Grrrr

[Jocks Away!]

This all seems a little too simple.

We all know that an ATPL (or other commercial licence) UK or JAA is for the sole purpose of gainful employment. The UK government does not recognise it as a qualification (I believe both the German and Spanish gov.ts at least are at odds with this view.) However, Hisory of Art at St Andrews for a young Windsor will receive considerable sums of OUR money. There is logic there somewhere.

It does not matter what shade of govt we have at Westminster as all they are after is our cash. They have left this economic sector to the rich boys and girls and won't say as much as that sounds bad for the press (PS election coming your way shortly!!)

As an aside, they are going to harmonise dentists et al within the EU, as in this case the UK's Medicines Act of 1968 is now part of the "ever growing closer union" and one which I still do believe in.

It is not the EU that are robbing us blind but our own MP's (those salaries we pay from OUR taxes). It's not just labour as they raise tax revenue without raising Income Tax (remember that election?) but what did the tories do in the preceeding 18 years? Well to BA quite a lot actually and maybe this is where our problem lays.

Whilst successive UK govts pander to BA and help them in negotiations why will our biggest employer make a stand, especially one that has a clear(ish) conscience as they sponsor the largest number of pilots with no deposit requirements. The only thing BA has done wrong in the eyes of govt is change their tail fins.....remember Maggie and her hankerchief...I was touched.

The CAA whilst employing many worthy and great people also employ pen pushers attached to the DETR and 2 Jags and he can't even get the trains running on time and thinks French women are stupid. (Mirror mirror on the wall....Mr Prescott!!)

Is this not just a case of divide and rule with some pilots being OK and comfortable whilst other struggle and many don't even get past their beloved PPL?

The CAA/Govt are one in the same and they have an agenda not to help. If BALPA and BA are one in the same then maybe that's why nothing changes, (views on this much appreciated) because the last thing you want to talk about on the golfcourse, or over a nice bottle during lunch, is work!!

So if you really are tired of it, mail your MP and say you'll change your vote and mail BAPLA and do the same!

And finally, (you'll be glad to here) if you think it's expensive in England try up here where its £20/hr more for a wee putt putt and you can't even get a medical or a flight test without crossing the border. Sorry one occassion where integration doesn't work.

PS red train: who is this 'MP' as there are no Opposition MP's in the NE or anywhere else in the country for that matter. As for protocol if you are in opposition you are not a Minister but a spokesperson. Sorry used to be a pen pushing bureaucrat myself.

[little red train]

UA - How nice it would be to sit down and say "I'm a Student" simply giving student status to what is a Vocational Qualification would simplify life for all envolved.

Jocks - He's the Shadow Transport Secratery, SNP. I was told he's MP for Fife, sorry, I know it's not exactly highlands and islands north, but all my Edinburgh Friends consider it so.

As for the Goverments constant worship of BA, simply because they are the biggest employer doesn't mean it is the only way things work. McDonnalds probably is the biggest employer in the restrant chain. we dont go to the Savoy and order a Happy meal no do we? the goverment could do with a less blinkerd view of aviation, it is a big wide world out there.

[jollygreengiant]

If we can get a consensus on the problems and write them in a concise manner then provide a list of options for the government to consider, we can organise a continual bombardment of MP's through e-mail. There addresses are all on the parliament website and if enough people do it for long enough we may at least highlight the issue. Just an idea.

[little red train]

I'm seeing the MP tommorow and so prepaird this, using your invaluable input. I't more something to talk from and provide an outline.

ATPL Problems

Class One Medical
Initial £400 Plus Expenses to Gatwick London
Renewal Every 12 mounts if under 40yrs
Every 6 Months if Over 40yrs
Variable, Last examination £217

Ground school
720 Hours Classroom Required
Average 2 hours night with 1.5 Days study weekends
£3500 - £5000 Plus cost of Accommodation, Food, transport, materials etc
£720 Exam Fees, Plus Re-sits & Expenses
All 14 Exams must be completed in no more than 3 attempts, split into no less than 2 groups,
Once both groups have been sat, Re-sits may not be split, all completed within 18 mounts of First Exam pass.

CPL(A)/IR - Commercial Fixed wing Aircraft with Instrument Rating
Aprox £19093.75 (Quote from Middle Ground School, Dependant on Many Criteria)
CAA Test Fees £1100

License Charges (CAA Charges)

Initial £287
Renewal (10 years) £287
Addition of rating £128 (Per Rating)

Total Cost Completing in minimum Time and with no Re-sits (Very unliegtly) under 40yrs

Medical £617
Ground School £4500
Exams £720
CPL(A)/IR £20,200
License Fees £287

Total £26,322

However, variables such as Aircraft availability, Weather, Personal Performance and Problems directly related to attempt integration into the JAA will add considerably to cost. This also does not include the High cost of Living associated with life around Airports.

No Government Assistance Available to aid in achieving a worthy career
VAT is being Charged on vocational Training

Lack of Student Status
No Student loans
No student Discounts
Council Tax
Accommodation
Health Care
Transport
Shops
Pubs!

Inadequate selection of License options
JAR ATPL(A) is very expensive option for those not wishing an Airline Job
CAA CPL(R) has no ability to be upgraded even though flown to higher standards than older CAA CPL, which is a temporary measure, soon to expire.
NO BCPL (Basic Commercial Pilots License)
The CAA has the ability to issue National Licenses, such as the CPL(R) a New NPPL (National Private Pilots License) Is under Development by outside parties, the CAA show no initiative to solve such problems


CAA Mishandling of JAR implementation
Examination System greatly flawed
Question Bank is of unacceptable standard (FAA Audit Proved this)
Inadequate testing of Question Bank
“Temporary” Markup System makes sitting no longer impartial.
Schools made JAA aware of Problems, No action was taken and students were not informed
Two objectives of the JAA were to Simplify and reduce the cost of Training
Costs Have Soared
Time to Complete is greatly extended
There is a great deal confusion over what to do in areas. (No hard and Fast Rules)
Respect for JAA/CAA has been greatly reduced, everything is now questioned.


No Ombudsman for the CAA
They are a Monopoly; they charge a great deal of money (far in excess of their European counterparts). All regulation would appear to be internal.
Ever increasing costs appear to bring ever-decreasing levels of service


Comments from Industry sources:
Flight international Weekly Aviation Industry Magazine
<A HREF="http://www.pprune.org" TARGET="_blank">http://www.pprune.org</A> Professional Pilots rumor network
<A HREF="http://www.srg.caa.co.uk" TARGET="_blank">http://www.srg.caa.co.uk</A> Civil Aviation Home page
<A HREF="http://www.Jaa.nl" TARGET="_blank">http://www.Jaa.nl</A> JAA Home Page
<A HREF="http://www.aviation.detr.gov.uk/conindex.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.aviation.detr.gov.uk/conindex.htm</A> Government Information on Aviation


Aviation Industry employs 180,000 People and is worth £10billion to the UK economy, it is continuing to grow at a very high rate. (EasyJet alone require 1600 Pilots by 2009) Airlines sponsorships, if any, do not meet Pilot Requirements, these must be met from self funded Pilots. Fully Integrated 509 Courses are not the only option to attain a license, Modular or self improver route provide what is recognized as a more capable Pilot, there is also a vast array of non-airline Pilot jobs, not known to the public, Private corporate jets, are a rapidly growing in Europe, London School of Business estimate a company gains 11.3% Productivity improvement above industry Average after the purchase of a Jet or Fractional Share.

Aviation is a rapidly growing, major part of the UK Economy and is Vital to its world Presence. Without Pilots there would be no Aviation.

Why is the ATPL or CPL Not recognized as a Qualification?

The CAA ATPL was recognized as a Degree and qualified for NVQ tax relief until withdrawn, although the NVQ Book had to be filled in parallel.

Why do Students not Qualify for Student Status?

Why Has NVQ Tax Relief Been Withdrawn?

Why is VAT Charged on Commercial Flight Training?

Why is there no alternative to the commercial CAA in areas other than regulation and enforcement, such as Examinations?

In the United States, the Exams cost around $60 and are marked electronically within 60 seconds, this is due competition provided by choice of exam providers, working from a common question bank, whilst still regulated by the FAA

Under the National system the CAA defended there High charges when compaired with the FAA (USA) system by stating the economies of scale in force, yet now in a pan-European system, charges have soared. What is the Excuse now?

Why does the Government's new "Individual Learning Account" scheme (the £150 voucher element and the more generous training subsidy element) specifically exclude commercial flying training?


Why is there no Viable alternative to a commercial Pilots Licence than the unnecessary and Costly ATPL?

There is Excessive Taxation on Fuel; there is no alternative for use with pilot training, what measures are being taken to remove this impact?

The CAA has the ability it issue BCPLs, why has there been no movement to do so, even with a relatively High Demand?

Who tests the CAAs ability to Test? Highlighted by the JAR exam fiasco there is obviously a lack of regulation of the regulators.

Why is there no ombudsman to regulate the CAA?

They are a monopoly and a Commercial organisation exercising a large deal of control all in Aviation with no alternative provided.

What form of Compensation is being offered to those students initially caught in the initial JAR fiasco?

Why is there no inquiry into the handling on JAR implementation when there is clear and compelling evidence that JAR would not be implemented smoothly, yet went ahead even with this knowledge?

Please add anything else you feel needs said and re-write the thing in something more like English.

I'll put up a post tommorow saying what happend

Jocks away - I don't know if you got my mail, Excite is playing up a bit. thanks for yours.

JollyGG - Great Idea, people outside aviation arn't really aware of whats going on, hey, even some people in aviation arn't too clued up. a common effort to make our views known could only help.

Is it just me or has Daddy-Pprune made all the writting funny, is this some kind of joke to make us all think we've gone blind?

[Superpilut]

Uhm, just to be curious...
How much do you end up spending up to your CPL with IR and Multi-engine-rating plus the frozen ATPL?

In Holland you'll spend around NLG 250.000,- or as most British like it:around 113.000 Euro :)

[bantam]

Perhaps we should lobby Airbus Industrie to fund some training for us.....
The JAA was set up so that Airbuses could have a common rating throughout the European theatre, without having to gain approval from each individual authority. This reduces the cost of buying a new (type) airbus to the airlines, and means more dough for the national treasuries as people buy European instead of Yank.
It perhaps should be no surprise that the pilot training element of the JAA is such a neglected area because Airbuses don't need pilots anyway.......

[RVR800]

JAA was set up to provide employment

...for bureaucrats

Nobody asked for it
Nobody voted for ir
Nobody needs it

Indeed it has been expensive in both time and money for all those unfortunate
enough to be involved

This is why we have paragraphs of utter drivel written in CAA FCL update documents
trying (in vain) to justify the unjustifiable

I believe that Europe is being redefined
not as a geographical area in peoples minds
but as a word meaning.....

Inefficiency

e.g. Are there any European standards for
the feeding of cattle after the BSE fiasco
in the UK - This is what Europe was all about
initially wasn't it? - The COMMON AGRICULTURE
policy - There is no policy - this is clear
- as what is happening in Europe now is a repeat of the events that occured in the UK
years ago ..... No lessons learnt

Q : What are these politicians doing in Europe?

A : Lining their pockets

European & Rapid is an oxymoron........



[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 20 December 2000).]

[little red train]

Hi all!

Sorry I didn’t post anything yesterday, I just received my re-sit results and was more than likely to write something less than constructive.

As you know I went to see the MP on Tuesday, Bruce Crawford is the shadow transport secretary for Scotland, and really nice bloke too. He was keen and interested to hear of our problems. But was totally unaware of how the crazy system works, (when and if it works).

Firstly we started on the JAA;

I stated the implementation problems, explaining what the principle was, and how reality was a very different situation. Pointing out how a JAA License really isn’t the ”One Europe one License” ideal. differences already resulting in what is effectively a bunch of differnet National licenses with more red tape trying to string them together.

Crawford questioned effectively the Accountability of the JAA, How it is run etc. I really fell down here, It was far to complex a system for me to explain, and I don’t even understand the half of it. I merley stated the case that everyone seems to have grounds for complaint over increased levels of time, cost and bureaucracy envolved. Pilots really have little interaction with the JAA; it’s all through the NAA’s. Going on to explain how we have all be let down and penalized by an exam system that should never have been implimented ,.. we all know its problems.

I also brought the fore the apparent lack of accountability of the CAA in non safety related matters. lack of regulation, and poor customer performance, however I was unable to give definitive answers on their relation with the government the CAA and the JAA. Again complexity and lack of info on my part. Comparing briefly with the US system helped clarify.

Then we moved onto the “Student” issues, or “Non-Student negative income full time study persons”, as the government would wish us to be called.

I started by explaining the sole purpose of a commercial pilot’s license was to earn money, if we didn’t want to earn money we’d all have PPLs, obvious I would have thought.

I put forward the problems we face ie: ATPL and CPL is not recognized as a Qualification. We are given no student recognition whatsoever, No Student loans, Government grants (pointing out the learning voutcher specifically precludes this) Healtcare, Transport, Council Tax etc. and the fact the government take 22% even thought they didn’t previously!

Then we moved on to the Piece de resistance. When I came up with the £26K is figure I thought “gee If only it was so straight forward and that cheap..” when Crawford say it he nearly had a fit! “How Much!!! And this is all paid by yourselves!” Explaining it precludes many from pursuing a worthy career and many, re-mortgage or take our large loans at high interest to fund our habit. “But obviously the salary makes up for that?” I made it clear that at when starting of in aviation minimum wage not bad going, with no guarantee of work, dependency on the weather and Aircraft tech play a large role. I stressed this was an artificially low figure due to problems faced and many people pay around £60K for a 509. Another Non-Aviator has the myth dispelled that we are all Nigel. Which helped to highlight there are other Aircraft than BA747-400s in the skies, and that Aviation is a wide spread and diverse economy providing a great deal to the UK as a whole. Again a comparison with the US made the situation clearer.

Toward the End, his main question was how this was effecting the employment market and the Airlines. I explained that the Market is forecast by all for growth, and currently, there is an artificially high level of CAA licenses being issued after the last minute rush to get through the old system. However, he was left in no doubt that costs were up, and JAA pilots would be down, due to the reduction of Ground school providers and removal or choice for pilots to achieve a commercial license and the problems that have been created for so-called haromisation.


He was enthusiastic at the end of our discussion, largely I think due to the impact factor of the costs involved. He assured me he will be asking questions at all his aviation related meetings, but asked me to draft a letter to be forwarded to all concerned (and yes 2 Jags was mentioned) and again I throw it out to all of you. As you can see I can’t write for toffee, the more powerful and emotive the letter the better. It needs to explain and highlight the pertinent issues evolving the “challenges” faced by those with an affliction to fly.

I suppose, it being Christmas and all, a wish list would be in order.

I.e.:

Dear 2 Jags

I know you are very busy, counting all our money, and eating all your pies, but what we really really want for Xmas is for you to

Re-estate NVQ for commercial training

Stop charging VAT on Commercial Training

Give us back student status

Get the CAA an ombudsman who knows about aviation and training

Set up a discussion group with training providers and students to hear how bad things are

Set up an enquiry as to why JAA went ahead, and why the UK dived in feet first ahead of the pack.

As an aside. Someone kindly sent me a copy of an article in Air Pictorial dated 1956
This went on at great length about how unfair it was that young pilots had to pay £1600 - £2000 to obtain a license when doctors etc were subsidized.
The last sentence read 'Plainly matters cannot be left where they at present stand'

Well, here we are 44 yrs on!!!!

And Danny, The writings all still Funny




[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 20 December 2000).]

[little red train]

No Takers? or was it antoher of my too long posts?

In a nutshell the MP was very positve and will be looking into the situation. He Asked for me to draft a letter Explaining the situation and the problems we face.

I'm a teRble rigter so All input would be gratfully recived

What about working draft online?

Thanks and merry X-mas.

Rember Don't drink and drive, Don't even putt.

[jollygreengiant]

I get paid to write, day in day out, but at the moment of writing this I'm fearing waking up in the morning.

Also, I am a little unsure of the arguments - it does tend to get longwinded and confusing, butgive me a couple of days (mainly to recover from the last couple) and I'll give it a blast.

If you can give more to work with, e-mail me.

Merry Christmas....

[Princess PP]

Hi little red train,

Have nearly got square eyes reading all of this! It has really incensed me having all of these injustices spelled-out.
Unfortunately, I can't write for toffee either but was heartily impressed with your efforts with MP, etc. What is happening at the moment? Have you had any joy?

If the fruits of your labour have already been discussed on a more recent thread, then I appologise, for I have no more time to search today and must give my eyes a rest!!

Look forward to hearing from you,

PPP