Cleared to line up behind

[BeerFly]

When getting this clearance are we actually allowed to cross the cross bar eventhough the other aircraft has not started it's take-off run yet.

Was just wondering.

[ETOPS]

BeerFly

A little while ago Heathrow put out a leaflet to crews about minimizing time on thr runway. One of the points was exactly this. If you have a conditional clearance such as "line up behind..." you may cross the holding point if you judge it is safe. Obviously you must watch for jet blast if you are driving something small and the previous is a heavy...........

[ATCO Two]

"Cleared to line up behind," ah, that would be, "after the departing (company, type) line up and wait (runway designator)" I presume?

And NO I would not advocate crossing ANY red stop bar without the express permission of the Controller! SAFETY is more important than EXPEDITION. The line up lighting at Heathrow is not perfect, but Controllers should be adept enough at using it to avoid the loss of too much time in the departure sequence.

[spekesoftly]

I suggest there may be some misunderstanding of terminology here. I would not expect a pilot to cross a red stop bar, even after a (correctly phrased!) conditional line up clearance, until the stop bar has been extinguished. However, if stop bars are not in use, then pilots positioned behind a preceding departure should use their own judgement when to cross the holding point, specifically in compliance with "After the departing XXX, line up and wait".

[Tcas climb]

Isn't the correct terminology:

"YYY Behind departing XXX, line up and wait behind"

Two behinds, a wait and not one word sounding anything like clearence, to avoid misunderstandings?

[ETOPS]

ATCO TWO

What is being discussed here is a daylight procedure. The reds and greens are not used until it gets dark. I can't find my copy of the notice that ATC at LHR put out but maybe Heathrow Director could help us here......

[ATCO Two]

TCAS Climb,

No, that is not correct RTF phraseology in the UK. The word "behind" is never used in this context, let alone twice! There have been incidents involving jet blast in the past, caused by the use of this word. The correct RTF phraseology is as I have written it above.

ETOPS,

The use of the word "crossbar," instead of "holding point" was confusing. I work at Heathrow Tower, and I have a copy of the notice in my hand. The sentence in question is, "In addition a conditional line up clearance authorises following aircraft to cross the holding point and follow in sequence towards the runway." I have no issue with this procedure.

[Tcas climb]

Then I can conclude, that once again the UK has their own procedures. If you look at ICAO's Doc 4444 PANS RAC, you will see, that the correct phraseology is excately what I have written.

Could you please point me to the document, that states the phraseology to be used in the UK.

[ATCO Two]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf


CAP413 is the UK RTF Manual. Phraseology for conditional line up clearances can be found in Chapter 4 para 7.5. I mentioned the reason for not using the word "behind" in my earler post - sooner or later a pilot is going to take the instruction literally.

UK ATCOs are not impressed with some of the phraseology that comes from ICAO, and we have refused to use some of it recently. Examples are "stand by" on a frequency instead of "monitor," and "taxy to holding position" instead of "holding point." The number of aircraft that misunderstood the last ICAO imposed phrase and actually held position (!) caused us huge problems at Heathrow. I am all for standardisation, but only when there is no chance of any instructions being misinterpreted, especially by non-native English speakers. The ICAO way is not always the best way! Ask the Americans!

[Tcas climb]

I don't understand the difference, its the same clearence, after or behind, it is when the depating or landing aircraft is clear of you, is it not?

But then again, I'm sure that the UK CAA has done everything they could to convince ICAO to adobt this, but the French would not have it!;)

[Spitoon]

I agree that ICAO phraseology is not always perfect, but then neither is UK phraseology (especially when some of the subtleties will not always be obvious to non-native speakers), however, CAP 413 sets out what should be used in the UK. Although controllers will usually be aware of differences between ICAO and UK phraseology and will understand responses from pilots that come out of the ICAO book, the language used by the controller should be that specified in CAP 413.

I'm more interested in the answer to the original question though. ETOPS refers to a LHR leaflet. Can I get a copy of it? Does the same apply at LGW? Or BHX? Or IOM? Or PLH? Surely if it is OK it will be in CAP 413 or some other CAP but I can't find anything about it.

[ATCO Two]

Hi Spitoon,

The leaflet in question was locally produced by Heathrow and is about reducing time spent on the runway to ensure maximum runway utilisation. It is primarily for pilot education, but nonetheless contains useful background information for Controllers. If you want a copy e-mail me with your details.

TCAS Climb

I think the ICAO phraseology is cumbersome. What is the point of repeating the word "behind"? As I said, using "behind" is not the same as "after." "Line up behind" could be construed as inviting an aircraft to line up behind another aircraft which is still on the runway. If the second aircraft is significantly lighter than the first, then the jet blast could have devastating effects. Similarly, in the UK we do not say "cross behind." You may think the above scenario sounds far fetched, but such incidents have actually occurred. You have to cater for the lowest common denominator. Use of the word "after" implies that the second aircraft should line up after the first aircraft has begun his take off roll. It seems to me that some of the ICAO phraseology was written by non-native English speakers. I am not making a judgement as to which phraseology is "best," merely pointing out the reasons why the UK uses different terminology.

[Point Seven]

TCAS Climb

ATCO Two is quite correct in his assertions on the UK RTF (as usual). The use of "behind the XXX line up behind" infers that you may enter the runway behind the aircraft on the roll, something which could have dire consequences if the previous departure is heavy and you're not... Now, not everyone is stupid, but there are some out there who ain't the full quota, we've all met them and the UK phraseology was devised by our dear old SRG to remove any ambiguity from the conditional clearance.

Whilst you may not agree with it, or the UK having it's own procedures, semantically speaking, there is a difference.;)

[Tcas climb]

Point taken, maybe its just me, who don't want to line up behind a 747/777/A330 or the odd Concorde, before its well down the runway, as I don't fancy being blown off the runway, or for that matter grilled. ;)