Rip off Britain!!!

[bow5]

I've just being trying to find a reasonably accurate forcast for Saturday as i'm supposed to be going flying. I've looked on the met-office.gov/aviation website but unfortunately it doesn't extend to the weekend.

I then saw a link to 'talk to a met office forecaster'. Great I think and click on it.

Now, bearing in mind when I was flying in Florida I could just ring up the nice people in St Petersberg, give them my route and they would give me the actual and forecast weather plus any NOTAMS etc for my planned route for free.

Finally, I think to myself, i've found this service in the UK. I click on the link and what does it say?

[quote]Call and speak to one of our Met Office forecasters for an in-depth forecast <hr></blockquote>

And the price? £17!!! Are they taking the p**s? <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Posh boy]

Anything related to aviation in B

[Posh boy]

Pressed the wrong key.
As I was saying, anything related to aviation here is a rip off. In fact if you look at anything else say food, services,cars, petrol etc and compare it with the prices on the continent it is a rip off as well. Did you know that to travel by rail in Europe is on average 50% cheaper than here? Makes you proud to be British!
The sooner we get the Euro the sooner people will realize the extent of the robbery we are being subjected to.

[pulse1]

I'm also hoping to aviate on Saturday. The best 3 day weather forecast I have found so far can be found on <a href="http://theyr.com/cg/cny/NA" target="_blank">Weather Forecast</a>. If you select the area closest to you it gives a very good idea of the weather. I have been using it for about a year and found it to be amazingly accurate for rain, cloud and wind. Difficult to predict cloudbase but I find the Met Office often can't do that even an hour ahead.

Apart from that it looks as if it's going to be somewhat windy.

Let's hope we are both happy on Saturday <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Wunper]

Here is a good link to a site that is primarily for glider pilots , it is a good starting point.

<a href="http://www.itadvice.co.uk/weatherjack/wx.htm" target="_blank">http://www.itadvice.co.uk/weatherjack/wx.htm</a>


I hope it helps

wunper <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[bow5]

Cheers for the info.

I was using it just as a rant really.

Never ceases to amaze me how helpful people on this forum are.

Thanks again.

[RVR800]

Use

<a href="http://www.phd.nl/aviation/wx/" target="_blank">http://www.phd.nl/aviation/wx/</a>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The dear old Met Office is online for free is you register with them.

In this instance talking to a Met Officer means exactly that. You could ask him/her to calculate an adiabatic lapse rate either side of a front and they could do so. In the US you are really just talking to a person who can read you out information that is at his/her fingertips and available elsewhere.

The Met Office service was never intended for light GA use and this is reflected in the fees.

If you want to see an overly regulated, officious and rule ridden GA scene you need only try to fly in Continental Europe. My experience of Spanish, Italian and French GA flying is that they rather wish you would not. Nearly everywhere is some form of controlled airspace and the regulations are a nightmare.

It is somewhat spurious to simply moan that US GA is cheaper. So is eveything there. But unless Europe is going to declare itself one country, adopt Federal law, slash social spending and adopt fully fledged market economics then costs will always be higher here than there.

But then WE have the South of France, German cars, Italian clothes, Scandanavian phones, Irish eyes and British humour. They have McDonalds and warped gun laws.

Oh and with 200hrs over there you might get a job flying some knackered twin in the middle of the night to deliver bank cheques. Here you might get a job flying 757's with 200+ pax...

WWW

[SuperTed]

If you give me 16 quid I can tell you what the weather is going to do. Providing I've watched GMTV!!

[bluskis]

RV 800is corect in recommending the Dutch link.
I would recommend using the US surface forcasts options which go 5 days forward, and once you are aware of what they do not show, they are a pretty good guide as to which days to plan for VFR trips.

The swedish link <a href="http://www.lfv.se/site/pilot_info/briefing/index.asp" target="_blank">www.lfv.se/site/pilot_info/briefing/index.asp</a>
gives 18 hour TAFS for major airports, and is quicker than the Dutch site for a list of metars and 9 hour TAFS.

I can't agree that flying in France is a problem, but if anyone has tips for flying in Italy I would welcome them, perhaps on a new thread?

[bow5]

WWW,

Fair enough to say that. However, in every single FBO I went into in Florida (even Cross City which is like Backwardsville USA - the toilet and bar were in the same room. I kid you not!!!) there was a weather computer available that showed just about every single bit of weather info one could wish for.

I regularly use the TAF's and METAR's on the met office website, I was just astounded to think that they could think charging £17 to talk to a whether forecaster is reasonable. £5 maybe but £17??

On the point of GA being cheaper.....well the majority of their aircraft are newer and better equiped. A lot of FBO's had pilot's lounges where free coffee and TV could be enjoyed in big ass leather chairs. A lot of them also would give you a free courtesy car for a few hours, as well as parking and chocking your plane for you. And the price? £0. Zip. nuffinck. In the UK, you are charged a fiver for daring to land on a grass strip. I know which i'd rather have.

Also,

[quote]But then WE have the South of France, German cars, Italian clothes, Scandanavian phones, Irish eyes and British humour. They have McDonalds and warped gun laws. <hr></blockquote>

Bear in mind they have nicer places than the South of France without the inconvenience of the French, they can buy German cars cheaper than we can, their women aren't exactly minging (I can confirm this after having the pleasure of attending a cheerleading competition in Miami) and their humour means we Brits can feel superior when we visit. :) <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Oh, and when eating at their McDonalds you don't run the risk of standing up and walking headlong into the nearest wall. :) :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Cyclic Hotline]

WWW,

Have you EVER been to the United States?

I guess I had forgotten that the UK was responsible for "the South of France, German cars, Italian clothes, Scandanavian phones, Irish eyes and British humour." Must be representative of the UK control of the EU?

OK, I concede that British humour definitely originates in the UK! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Any Frenchmen here care to concede that the UK is responsible for the South of France?

Any Germans here here care to concede that the UK is responsible for the German motor industry?

Any Italians out there care to concede that the UK is responsible for the Italian fashion industry.

Any Swedes out there care to concede that the UK is responsible for the manufacture of Swedish telecommunication equipment?

And the Irish! My God, maybe someone from Ireland might confirm that the UK is responsible for those beautiful Irish eyes smiling?

Still, at least the UK is responsible for the aircraft that you operate and make a living flying!

McDonalds and warped gun laws? At least you have a balanced view-point!

At least I still maintain my sense of humour!

:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

We being European. Somewhat obviously.

If you like the States so much go emigrate and stop whinging. Would be my advice.

If you can't discern dry wit when it is presented then perhaps you should stick to Friends, Cheers and the Fresh Prince.

WWW

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

<a href="http://www..." target="_blank">www...</a>

My sentiments precisely...

Or, stop winging; learn to read a synoptic chart and work it out for yourself. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Flypuppy]

Nicely put WWW,

I can assure you that GA flying in the UK is much easier than flying in The Netherlands. As for cost, well it is difficult trying to draw a direct comparison, but as a percentage of disposable income, the UK doesnt come out too badly in comparison.

Dont forget when you in the UK buy a car from Holland, Belgium or Denmark you dont pay some of the draconian 'Green' taxes, which will amount to about 2000 pounds for those people not exporting a new car. In fact I believe Denmark is the most expensive country in Europe to buy a car if you live there. The UK may be ripped off in some areas but other countries in Europe are ripped off in others.

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Flypuppy ]</p>

[LRRP]

Being married to an American I have experienced my wife giving me a comprehsive list of all the things that are cheaper/better in the USA.

The strange thing is that quite a few of he things she thought were really cool about the states were actualy made in Britain!
She has a couple of degrees but for some reason when they told her that Marconi invented radio they did not give the impression that he was not American.

When visiting I often wonder how they can do so many things and charge so little.
I mean sometimes it just does not add up until you take in to account that the price of the land over there is a lot cheaper.
I have wondered just what it would take to create an airfield here that did all of the things that the best fbo's do in the states.
In the end I gave up because the costs were prohibitive but I did start to appreciate what we do get here for a measly little landing fee.

Oh, I also realised I had only seen one aspect of it when I overhead my wife telling her brother last year, about all the things we have back home in the UK that are better than they have in the states. :)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I live in Canada and my two partners and I work out of London.

I find most things are priced about the same only problem I have is for every pound I buy it costs me $2.25 Canadian, so most things for me are 2.25% higher.

I have an Aerobat converted to a Texas Taildragger I charge $140.00 Canadian for advanced dual in it. That is about 62 quid. Light aircraft pay no landing fees at almost all airports in Canada.

What would the same airplane go for dual in England?

..................
:) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[Julian]

I dont think WWW has ever ventured out of the UK from his comments about US weather briefers!

If he had he would know that if you question them 'after they have ust read information out availiable elsewhere' he would find that they actually pretty knowledgable and also having being given PIREP as well as standard weather data can also be very usful - you would be a pratt not to use them. They will also file your flight plan for you which is a nice touch!

Maybe WWW et al could do with emigrating for a while and have a look and see just where British GA could learn from our foreign neighbours. Being a frequent flyer in both countries it shows you where things we take for granted in the UK are woefully inadequate when compared to the services given to GA in other countries.

Julian.

[englishal]

Hmmm,


[quote] In this instance talking to a Met Officer means exactly that. You could ask him/her to calculate an adiabatic lapse rate either side of a front and they could do so. In the US you are really just talking to a person who can read you out information that is at his/her fingertips and available elsewhere.<hr></blockquote>

Have you ever phoned one WWW, or is this just what you've read? The forecaster on the phone in the US....(note, free phone call, free service)...gives a very comprehensive forecast, with advice pertinent to your flight such as NOTAMS, SIGMETS, and other advisories, all amalgamated into the pre flight briefing. Ok, you may be able to gain this info on your own via the internet, but there is no substitute for talking to a 'real' person who is qualified to tell you whether you should or should not make the flight.

By the way, GA is cheaper in the US! If I want, I can fly into LAX and it costs no more than the Hobbs time. I'd like to see anyone land an Arrow at LHR. It really is as simplistic as that!!!

Cheers

EA

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

english

I agree with the majority of what say; however, your statement and I quote;

"but there is no substitute for talking to a 'real' person who is qualified to tell you whether you should or should not make the flight"

is simply incorrect. It is the forecaster's job to provide the commander with information on the weather and a forecast if he is qualified to do so.

It is the commanders job to use the information provided to decide whether he should or should not make the flight.

The commander is ultimately responsible and answerable for his actions, if something went wrong in your scenario the can you imagine having to stand up in front of the CAA / FAA and say "well sir the weather man told me to go". <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[scroggs]

I see no point in getting into an argument about the relative merits of UK and US flight support systems. They have different histories, different funding, and very different environments. They will, therefore, be different!
WWW's comment about land costs is very apposite; land costs have a huge effect on the cost of everything in UK - the most overpopulated country in Europe. There is also the larger element of beaurocracy and taxation in UK (and all of Europe, for that matter), combined with a broad-based negative public attitude about general aviation.
Complaining about it is quite natural, but it's unlikely to achieve a lot. You'll have to turn round an official attitude to aviation that's rooted in decades of indifference. Anyone for a job as Minister of Aviation? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

scroggs....

Bravo; you sound like just the man for the job. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[englishal]

TNB,

Of course its the PICs decision whether to fly or not, but having a friendly forecaster on the end of the phone who can advise you 'VFR flight not recommended' does help the inexperienced PIC in arriving at his or her decision to go or not. If I'm planning a VFR flight from A to B and the forcaster advises me 'VFR not advised', then I'll stop right there, or file for IFR assuming freezing levels, SIGMETS / AIRMETS etc are within my or my aircrafts tollerances. My point was that its certainly more helpful and faster to talk to someone rather than trying to download all the pertinent information from the Web, and then trying to sift through and understand it.

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

englishal

If you go to <a href="http://www.meto.gov.uk" target="_blank">http://www.meto.gov.uk</a> click on Aviation and register you will be able to obtain all the information you require free of charge.

Hope it helps.... <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Address Corrected

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Thoroughly Nice Bloke... ]</p>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have no problem with the US system. Personally I *like* sifting Metform 214/215 decoding the TAF's and METARS, phoning destination for an actual and making my own analysis.

Flying in the UK and US is subtley different. One is not better than the other.

Safe flying,

WWW

[Julian]

WWW,

I can't see how you claim flying in the US is subtly different, if you went there you would see that there are a number of services, WX-BRIEF being just one, that allow an aviator to go about his business not just a damn sight more easily but also a lot cheaper!

A £17 charge is a good example, I have yet to find an example (even flying IFR), in the US where someone has asked me for my credit card details before they will even speak to me!!!!

Can you please tell me how often you have flown Stateside and when the last time was as so far the only subtle diffence I detect is the signature on the bottom of the debit slip.

If you want further proof I make good use of shooting the ILS into US airports when there - and its all free! I hear Luton charge £22 even if you go missed!!! DOH!

Best regards,. .Julian.

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

Julian

If you go to <a href="http://www.meto.gov.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.meto.gov.uk/</a> you will find all the weather information including TAFS, METARS, Met forms 214, 215 and lots more for free.

Now, your post suggests that you are not able to understand these standard aviation documents (I’m not saying that you can’t) but if that is the case, then that is your problem, and quite frankly if you can’t you shouldn’t be in charge of an aeroplane.

Oh, and if you consider things to be so much better in the US why don’t you get on out there and stop winging about how bad you think things are here.

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Polar_stereographic]

TNB,

Bit harsh on Julian. I'm not one for winging about the merits os US aviation, but lets be frank, the UK leaves a lot to be desired.

Nothing will impove if we just sit on our hands.

PS

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

Polar_stereographic

I certainly didn’t intend for it to sound “harsh” or to offend.

I’m sorry but the last paragraph had to be said and I just couldn’t think of another way of putting it.

[Julian]

Nicebloke,

What a loads of cr@p you have written!

If you went back to original post you would see firstly that I fly in the UK and US so yes I do get TAF, METAR, etc and in the UK - and yes I can decode them! I don't know where you get your ideas that I cant.

The point of my post was that this is freely available to any aviator in the US, not at a charge of £17. A comment had been posted that one was not better than the other - which is obvioulsy way off the mark.

I don't think you can call it whinging when you point something out (good or bad when compared to an alternate), afterall thats hows things get rectified - there again there are some people who just like to lay back and take things as they are. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Julian.

[englishal]

TNB,

Getting a US weather briefing is far more than simply having TAFs and METARs read out to you on the phone. The pre-flight briefer will inform you or any pertinent PIREPS, NOTAMS, and any other information which would affect your flight, or near route of flight. It is the PICs responsibility to be fully aware of weather conditions, NOTAMS and other pertinent information before setting off on any flight, and I fail to see how having a comprehensive pre-flight briefing somehow insinuates that a person should not be PIC of an aircraft. In fact, I would suggest that any pilot who does not make full use of services offered is infact un-qualified to act as PIC of an aircraft. Anyone can interpret TAFs and METARs, but TAFs and METARs should not be considered in isolation. Having a service which gives the pilot a fully comprehensive briefing, including synopsis, current weather, forecast weather,NOTAMs, PRIEPS, AIRMETS, SIGMETs, and any other pilot requested info should not be considered inferior. I object to paying £17 for the privilege of obtaining required information, which is just another example of how the US is more GA friendly overall.

True, lots of information can be found on the internet, and I use AVBrief in the UK though it is still not as good as the service offered by the flight service stations in the US. I would be prepared to pay a yearly subscription for a service similar to 1800WXBrief, due to difference in funding between the US and UK, but I think £17 for a pre-flight is a rip off.

By the way, many people on these Forums, do prefer to fly in the US over the UK. I fly regularly in the US, an have my FAA ME IR and can rent a Seneca for the same price as you probably pay for a crappy old single in the UK. Stop whining about people who fly in the US and go and try it. You might enjoy the experience.

Regards

EA

[CW]

Bravo englishal...well said! Flying in the US is very different than in the UK.... In some ways flying in the UK is better because you have more guidelines, (enforced) and your training enhances that. Anybody over here can get a PPL with enough cash, but there are thousands of poor pilots who've picked up a bad a instructors sloppy habits. I am really amazed at how much they rip you off in the UK just because you like flying airplanes. There has to be some way you UK pilots can reform aviation and get the point across about weather briefings, at least for a start. My wish would be that every pilot who knows the thrill of flying in every country could have access to the most current and free data around the globe....every voice united in a cause can really a loud noise. Best wishes friends!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I am sorry but I just cannot get excited about a free telephone briefing service. I still have to compile my own Wx and Notams at work in an airline and if I had never done so before because I relied on a telephone briefing I would be all the poorer pilot for it.

We all know the US is cheaper than the UK. Whether you be buying a car, a haircut or a flying course.

What I would say in specific terms of Wannabeism is that although your training costs more in the UK you can also earn more in the UK.

I spent all of 2000 training young men and women who were receiving free ATPL's with immediate jet type ratings at the end and a decent career in major airlines ahead of them. That just don't happen in the US of A...

Then there were the self sponsored guys who had raised their own £50,000. Assuming they got a job they would expect about $30,000 in the their first year on a turboprop. Thats an awful lot more than their US couunterparts would have gotten running bank cheques in the middle of the night in a BE55 (what - maybe $12,000). Some of the lucky ones went from school to RHS in 757's which would have taken 10 years of seniority building in the US to have achieved.

It would seem to me that market forces are very much at play here. In the US the barriers to carrier entry are lower (training is cheaper). But as a consequence more people enter the marketplace and drive down the price of labour.

Therefore if one were to compare the costs vs pay of an average airline pilot in the first decade of their respective US and UK careers one might well find that the UK pilot was actually better off.

Certainly this is the case with myself. One year instructing PPL, one year teaching commercially and then into a B737 with 1,500 piston hours. I certainly earn more than if I was in the US and spent one year instructing, one year running bank cheques/air taxi, two years turboprop ad hoc charter, 4 years regional turboprop FO, 2 years regional turboprop Captain, then finally Jet FO. Which I think is a likely career pattern.

Simply stating that you can get free weather briefs or a twin for the price of a single rather ignores the bigger picture.

Not that I have anything against training in the US. Even if it only serves to further undermine UK GA by doing so.

Cheers,

WWW

[englishal]

...but likewise, a senior US captain will earn a shed load more than a UK captain....

Swings and roundabouts really, do whatever you're happy with, but one thing is not to put down a service like 1800WXBrief without trying it first !

Cheers. .EA

[Cyclic Hotline]

Interesting debate - conveniently returned to it's original point; Rip-off Britain?

I think you sum up the entire problem eloquently in the final sentence. The undermining of the entire UK GA scene, due to inordinately high costs.

It would probably be fair to ask all the companies (not just the individuals) who send their trainees to locations outside the UK (not just the States) why this is the case - and it is probably for much the same reasons that this thread started over.

If a service or facility is priced beyond the reach of the consumer, they simply won't use it. Taxes and user fees, often have the opposite effect of their goals, as they simply dissuade the use of the service. You have it, it's funded and it generates a regular revenue. At no additional expense, you could allow it to be used by non-commercial users. Everyone will still make their taxes and charges on fuel, rentals, fees, and did I mention the taxes....

Instead they don't fly, they don't use the facilities, they don't take the training, they don't pay the taxes. Instead they save their money and take it to the US, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Spain, in fact just about anywhere other than the UK!

Excessive costs and taxes are what is undermining the UK GA industry.

This forum is full of the questions of aviators wishing to reduce or manage the costs involved with every aspect of flying. Be it training, buying and operating aircraft, N registering aircraft, FAA licences, converting licenses, the information contained here is amazing. In conjunction with this, there are continuing problems experienced with training organisations disappearing in the UK.

Whilst, like many here on PPRuNe, I have followed your (detailed and very informative) progress with great interest, it might be a little unfair to think that your personal experience is typical for the self-improver. There are many in UK aviation that have struggled in the exact same foot-steps you have described in the US example, to reach their ultimate goal with an airline. As you yourself have noted, for anyone coming into the business currently, there is going to be a period of difficulty ahead for new careers. There are also a lot of experienced and capable pilots out of work right now; never forget to throw recession, bankruptcy and unforetold disaster into any career cycle! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

I have had the great pleasure over the years to work with individuals of all nationalities, trained by a vast number of different military and civilian training operations around the world. The path that each has taken is often very different to get to the ultimate destination, and the character of each was formed by path they travelled. I think that is often that part that is so difficult to comprehend when starting out in the business. There is more than one way to skin a cat! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

The UK, European and World airline scene is changing tremendously, to where it might be unrecognisable in (say) 10 years. The orders and expansion are resuming, and there will be the continued demand for new crew members.

It is a sad reflection that in a country with such a strong and vital aviation industry and heritage, that the remedies to revitalise the GA scene, the heart of aviation, are not recognised and as a whole are unable to flourish. Someone needs to give it a break.

Isn't it time to improve it, rather than just allow it continue, when there are a multitude of examples of how it could be. Surely the better it is, the better for everyone?. . . .There is a big picture and then there is a BIG picture.

I won't address money or cost of living, 'cos I don't want to p**s anyone off! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Cyclic Hotline ]</p>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

All good points.

Name me a country with a healthier wannabe market than the UK at the moment. Seriously. On the Continent state owned dinosaurs face extinctions left right and centre. In the US even the Majors are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy as huge over capacity is slowly deflated. Most of the rest of the world is in economic stagnation.

And here in Blighty? Recession? What recession? People are still going on holidays, business people are still travelling and at least three airlines that I could name are buying swathes of new jet airliners and hiring every week. This sceptered Isle has a long tradition of funding cadet pilots and that will very probably return within 3 years.

Flying has always been expenive. Q. What makes an aeroplane fly. A. Money

Good luck one and all. As has been said there is a multitude of ways to achieve a professional flying career.

WWW

[ILS27R]

I agree WWW. There seems to be even more wannabes (in the UK) who have appeared since Sept 11 and want to embark on a professional aviation career. Is that what you chaps think aswell?

ILS27R

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: ILS27R ]</p>

[bow5]

Well, after following this thread with interest i'll report that I did finally get up flying. I nearly got blown half way to Sweden but made it up and down again without any problems.

Now, without whinging i'll alight you all to the cost of this.

I'm currently a member of a great club in Lincolnshire that has very competitive rates for the hire of their Warrior II. I went flying for 1.8 hours and then added the landing fee to that. The cost? £144.80. The club can't help the cost as they have all the overheads etc. but to me, close to £150 for under two hours flying (in quite an old aircraft) is just a tad excessive. That cost comes from a myrid of sources that the clubs/schools can do nothing about.

When I come to do the hour building part of my modular course I shall be going to the States, just like everyone else does. Why? The cost obviously. The amount of business that UK based flying schools must lose because of students going to the US to build hours is phenomenal.

Too often UK pilots are expected to pay more for their flying while, more often than not, recieving a sub-standard service. When I go the States i'll no doubt be flying a shiny Warrior III with a moving map GPS. I'll be able to fly virtually every day and look forward to free coffee, leather chairs, comprehensive free weather briefs and a courtesy car. I'll pay less to do so and will lose nothing in my learning progression.

It's a shame that UK schools lose out in this way but I feel there has to be a seismic shift in attitude in this country before anything changes.

. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Julian]

WWW,

Hmmm, you neglected to say how often you have flown in the US and when?

I dont think you can say the US undermines GA in the UK - it actually supports GA a damn sight better than we do, hence people are going abroad. With a majority of flying cosing an arm and a leg, albeit that there is the odd cheap airfield around but once you take the time in getting there and costs of fuel you are back where you started - unless you are lucky enough to live locally! Unfortunately most local airfields are expensive, ibcluidng charging a membership fee before they take even more money to let you fly!!!

To name a few things. .- No landing fees.. .- No club membership fees (on the whole!). .- No approach fees.. .- Free curtesy car and usually the fuel as well !. .- Free refreshments (Not some Maxpax machine stuck in the corner!). .- Cheap (generally about $5) or even free overnight parking.. .- Free flight briefers (who will also file flight plan if requested!)

Shall we go on?

Entry requirements maybe cheaper if you want to go into the airlines but dont forget that in the US a degree is generally a mus for a carrier to look you - not so in the UK.

I think we can learn a bit from the US on promoting GA - even putting tax differences aside....

[boss man]

“WWW”

If a thread was started on here claiming white was white and black was black you would have to disagree!

Briton is a rip off we all know it, anyone who has flown in the US or indeed many other countries around the world knows it’s generally easier and cheaper than the UK.

As for the quality of instruction there’s good and bad all over the world often it has more to do with the instructor’s attitude rather than technical ability.

As for 250hour guys and girls jumping into big airplanes! Those of us with plenty of time in the air including your 1500 hr WWW understand the benefit of our experience, so may be they haven’t got it all so wrong.. . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[jmore]

people in britain that fly planes seem to revel in the fact that it costs money for everything -if you'd all stop being so terribly british and speak up a bit you too could have mercs for free after your complimentary coffee in the lazy boy in front of the big screen -wx brief service is superb they treat both ifr and vfr pilots with the respect they deserve and as many of the briefers are exeperienced pilots themselves they can deliver an instant vfr not recommended -or tell you to put the plane back in the hangar-it may just save some cowboys life

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

jmore - if you need a weather briefer to stop you flying beyond your limits it reflects poorly on you.. .. .Please no more my country is better than yours.. .. .WWW

[spitfire747]

England is a rip-off - YES. .Fuel is very expensive - YES. .WE have landing fees - YES. .We have approach fees - YES. .We have loads of tax - YES. .We have a free weather brief - NO. .. .But its my home !. .. .I wish the Government of this once great Island, would start treating its own nationals with a bit more respect and offering a little help - instead of spending millions and millions on useles wastes of money, Dome, wobbly bridges etc. etc. and the continuing payment of money for food and housing to immigrants who come here for a free ride and who do nothing more than escelate the crime rate costing the British Tax Payer even more money (contraversial I know and apologies if it offends)

[Megaton]

And how much tax have you paid so far?

[englishal]

...so long as we don't all start waving Union Jacks around, and attaching them to our cars, and stick stickers all over our bumpers saying "God Bless the Great Britain", and all become paranoid, and have 24hr news shows about "Britain at War" every time some terrorist group blows up one of our towns..... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[bluskis]

No one flown in Italy since 16 Jan? How about before. Let's have some info.

[jmore]

your country better?? i think not -its the same country you idiot i just decieded to leave and get some sunshine in the process ta very much!