'Do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'

[Bubbette]

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/02/16/npilot16.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/02/16/ixhome.html/news/2003/02/16/npilot16.xml


Cabin crew told: 'Do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'
By David Harrison, Transport Correspondent
(Filed: 16/02/2003)


Airline pilots are taking "naps" for up to two hours during long-haul flights and ordering cabin crew not to disturb them, The Telegraph can reveal.

The practice has alarmed fellow pilots and cabin crew who fear a disaster if the co-pilot also falls asleep, or ill - leaving nobody in control of the aircraft.

I thought some sleep was permitted on long term flights--if there were a second crew.

[28L]

Fish,

Ditto, hardly worth replying to but.........if we want to be boringly factual about it IF both pilots were to fall asleep (and the proposed new flight time rules, if accepted, might lead towards this area) many aircraft have automatic equipment installed to wake the guys up front if no activity has been detected for a while.

Sorry to bring facts into a good story.

[javelin]

If you are tired, you have got to sleep - simple !

We don't have any rest areas, we don't use heavy crew, we just have us, sat down, facing forward. Now if the F/O or I say we are tired, then a suitable time is agreed and we nap - say 20 minutes is good and then perhaps the other person does the same. It has been proved by NASA and others that sleep like that is not only beneficial, but essential to the safe operation of the flight. It doesn't matter whether it is shorthaul or longhaul, the same applies. My personal fave time is just after lunch going west when we are over Canada, sun shining, full belly, hostie gently playing with my..................:O

[Alty Meter]

It is worth replying to this thread.
We should encourage any post by Bubbette which isn't packed with propaganda for XXXXXX ....... oops, almost said it, and we all know what happens if anyone even mentions XXXXXX.
I know it's just a link to a silly story, but she's got to start somewhere.

Alty

[Onan the Clumsy]

Reminds me of a story I heard where the FO complained that the Captain's snoring was stopping him from concentrating on his newspaper.

[Diesel]

Anyone wanting the facts on pilot rest should talk to the CAA. I'm sure they would be happy to provide an explanation of how airlines permit in flight rest.

As for the idea that some sleep for "two hours" - well they'd have to get rid of that hangover somewhere wouldn't they?!

Diesel

[virgo]

I understand that the CAA are terribly worried about the phenomenon of pilots suffering fatigue after as little as 24 hours without sleep (typical return sector of London - Florida trip) and providing it doesn't prejudice the locked cockpit door policy and gets approval from the FAA, NTSE, CIA and president Bush (supported by Tony Blair), will introduce single legged stools in place of cockpit seats.

[peeteechase]

Fish, Diesel
remarks about pilots and drinking aren't big and they aren't clever. I suggest if you feel that way about the airline profession you take a train or a boat next time and good riddance!

Back to the topic, as it says in the article, taking "scheduled rest" is quite normal and absolutely safe. What isn't safe, is both trying to fight one's circadian rythms and staying awake. After all the most difficult bit is finding "Mother Earth" safely again, much easier after a power nap.

ATB, PTC

[Filtonman]

If you are tired then you should sleep,get a hosty on the jump seat to keep your buddy awake.Remember Gary Hart (Selby train disaster) he was one of many idiots who think its safe to drive a car when tired.The journalists need to look at some incidents in the cruise VS incidents during approach/landing figures and do some risk management analysis.Better still bring some pressure to bear to solve the root cause,FTLs used as targets....sorry just woke from a micro nap.:rolleyes:

[Ali Barber]

Back in the dim and distant past, one of my instructors told me of the time an entire crew of a Vulcan fell asleep and overshot their destination by about half an hour. Thank goodness for uncomfortable bang seats!

[Dessert Aviator]

At GF we are supposed to get an additional crew member with any flight with a block time exceeding ten hours. Recently west bound from MNL this was the case but instead of providing a third pilot they gave the crew a flight plan with a very high cost index and a low cruise level in an attempt to legalise matters. Not unknown for the flying time to exceed the block time !!

[Diesel]

Peeteechase

Your inability to understand sarcasm must make life very dull. Perhaps you like it that way.

Like many others I feel this article is barely worthy of comment. As I suggested any cursory research with the CAA will reveal that inflight rest is legal, safe. and NECESSARY. It is a non-story.

I personally feel the media's current obssession with alcohol to be of almost similar value. Hence my comment.

Diesel

[Anti Skid On]

What do you put in your logbook? PHN - pilot having a nap or PUD pilot under duvet?

[boeing_bananas]

Hi, all.

I am sorry, but there is no big deal in this. The SOP in my company purely requires that there is contact between the flight deck and cabin crew every 20 minutes. Normally they would call us, but if one of us was going to take a nap, then we can make an arrangement to call them every 20 minutes. This saves the interphone chime on the flightdeck going off and waking up the napping crew member. Obviously, if the cabin crew hear nothing from us after a 20 minute period, then they should call us to ensure that we are OK.

I agree that a 2 hour nap is too extreme. Our SOP states that it should be no longer than 45 minutes.

BB.

[Max Angle]

This certainly is a topic worth airing, the Telegraph article is quite correct, cabin crew and FO's from several operators including mine have mentioned to me that some Captains are saying exactly what the paper claims. Bloody dangerous and places the cabin crew in a very difficult position. Ignore the request, call anyway and create an "atmosphere" on the flight or not call and hope that everything will be OK. The SOPs are there for a reason and the "I do it my way" attitude should be long gone from a modern commercial flightdeck.

[Sir Kitt Braker]

A really strong, fresh black coffee just prior to top of drop is what you need. I find a large dash of fine cognac added from my flight bag hip flask really perks me up. Well you know how you drive better with a couple of swift ones inside you - same with flying don't you think?

[Ghostflyer]

Max,

Is it really 'bloody dangerous'? I think not. What is bloody dangerous is the old school 'stay awake cos men are men' attitude. All that leads to is both crew members being asleep in the gravy strokes when you want someone to be on the ball.

As BB says, if the flight deck crew don't want to be called because the buzzer is too loud (and would prevent any rest) it doesn't require a rocket scientist to make other arrangements.

So what is the issue? Pilots need to be rested, cabin crew need to make certain that someone is awake and that things haven't gone awry.

If a Purser or F/O isn't capable or prepared to come up with an arrangement that satisfies the requirements or is frightened of causing an 'atmosphere' when unhappy; then they are in the wrong job. CRM isn't courtesy...

No, sometimes it isn't easy to stand up for what you believe in but just because the Captain is a prick doesn't mean everyone else on the crew has to follow suit. Next you'll be telling me Saddam is a good guy too......

Ghost:D

[Dozza2k]

hey all,
i am not a proffessional pilot, i have a great desire to be one, and will begin training this time next year though.

I always thought that the crew could only fly for 8hrs before legally leaving the seat for rest to the crew bunks. This has actually surprised me, pilots falling asleep at the wheel so to speak, but fair play to ya! if one of the two can manage the F/D then why keep a man, or indeed woman, from their rest?

This is another one of those aviation issues that will never be legal, although a lot of peeps will do it!!!!

sleep tight guys :D

[Hand Solo]

Dozza - I hope you take a more sensible attitutude when it comes to job interviews or you'll never make a professional pilot. Two flight crew can stay in their seats up to 14 hrs on a two sector day, without rest, without even going into discretion. In-flight rest is perfectly legal, approved by the CAA and a damn sight more sensible than both plodding on through the night 'micro-sleeping' when at least one of you should be alert.

[I. M. Esperto]

One more reason to have a F/E station.

[Dozza2k]

Hand,
when you say inflight rest is legal, is that when on the flight deck? i mean in the pilots seats?. I can totally understand why you need the rest if you work for 14hrs, i thought it was only 8. It just comes as a surprise that the pilots who are you are trusting with, well, your lives, can legally have a kip when they wish, or at least one at a time. No offence intended hand, and apologies for any caused. This just proves my ignorance and shows i need to know a hell of a lot more than i do!:confused:


Dozza

[Hand Solo]

Yep, my company (with the approval of the CAA) allows up to 45 minutes 'controlled rest' in the seat during the cruise, with the conditions that both crew members agree (ie the other guy has to be sure he'll stay awake), contact is maintained with the cabin crew at intervals not greater than 20 minutes and the rest ends at least 30 minutes before top of descent. The logic is that if you're body's got to sleep then it's going to sleep, so far better to do it under controlled conditions at a time of minimal workload than in uncontrolled conditions when workload is high and alertness needs to be maintained. Ever sat in a warm room listening to sombody boring drone on and on and just felt your head starting to drop no matter how hard you tried to stay awake? You wouldn't want to drive your car in that condition and I don't want to land an aircraft like that, so we use the aviation equivalent of pulling into a service station and having 30 minutes kip. No shock, no horror, no danger, just a bored Daily Telegraph journalist searching for sensation on a slow news day.

[Dozza2k]

Hand,
When you put it like that it does seem like a very good idea. Increases safety i suppose by having controlled rest. I know exactly what you mean when you talked about the warm room, i am in my last year of school and those pesky Physics lessons in which i get no understanding!:p . Thanks for the info, and apologies again.
Cheers,
Dozza

[Huck]

Most FAA here in the US would readily agree off-record that "controlled rest" is preferable to micro-sleep and fatigue related accidents. But it will never be approved over here - no FAA administrator is willing to sustain the publicity. Imagine the US public finding out that - horrors - pilots are asleep up front, with government's blessing.

Dozza2k - never forget, these limits are SCHEDULED, meaning that you can always go long for delays. I did 22 hours in the right seat of a DC-10 once, Harare - Lagos - Amsterdam - Brussels. All legal as scheduled, but (suprise) we ran long.

[perseus]

Funny thing is you can stay up all night, land back in the country of your choice, go to your crew room, hand in the paper work, and then spend another hour getting to your car. You might have been awake for up to thirty six hours. (We have all tried to sleep when a longhaul flight has been delayed, and failed miserably.)
Then you get into your car and drive home. Still I don't see the Daily Telegraph making a big thing about that. Now who would begrudge us a wee cat nap, if it means we might not run our cars down an embankment and on to a railway line?????

[Zingaro]

What I find SOoooo amazing is that it has taken SOoooo long for the press/public to "wake up"( sorry about the pun) to the fact that we pilots are nothing but normal human beings,requiring the same food & rest requirements as they!
The big difference between the average member of Joe public & us is that we are frequently required to go without the rest!
We are frequently called upon to be awake in a 2 pilot environment, in my case for up to 17 hours,before seeing a proper bed.After double the flight time as rest I can then be compelled to do it all again. Now this rest is not in my bed at home but possibly in a noisy hotel where in my case, a man with a hammer drill is always working on the floor above!

So when we co-ordinate LEGAL inflight rest between the 2 of us,for short periods of up to 1 hour, informing the cabin staff to make more frequent visists to the flight deck, you the general public should applaud our fine sense of responsibility, ensuring that we are more rested & therefore more likely to adequately deal with any emergency that may occour later on during the statistically proven more risky descent, approach & landing phase of the flight.
But, if you are still not convinced that we should be taking short periods of inflight rest then JOIN WITH US and write to your member of parliament asking that the authorities put pressure on the rogue airlines that continually roster their pilots above and beyond the legal limits!!!!!!
Enough said, Am in Havana, Cuba having just awoke from a full nights sleep & must go down for breakfast before flying back to Europe tonight. Now let me see, must report at the airport at 2200 hours tonight(1700 GMT) so should I go back to bed after breakfast, no,wont be able to sleep with that hammer drill working above me,will try to sleep this afternoon- maybe there will be a short break between the hammer drill man finishing and the afternoon/evening disco music from the pool bar beginning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pegasus77]

That reminds me of a passenger a few weeks ago:

When boarding he saw me through the cockpitwindow, eating a sandwich. He then complained to the cabin crew that this was outrageous, because I could fall ill if I was eating something bad, and now he would be scared the entire flight.
The captain then explained that an FO with something in his stomach would fly safer than when passing out due to lack of food, but the passenger told him he would write a complaint to the company.

Sorry for being human!

[Squawk7777]

Haha P77 - you should have told the pax that the food was LBA approved! ...what is going to happen next? Will the pax complain because you have to use the bathroom? You could get stuck in there and the a/c would have to be flown single pilot! :eek:

A nap makes you mentally fresher! I had a few flights where I fought sleep with coffee and cold temps etc. it's not worth it. :suspect: :zzz:

[brakedwell]

I'm retired now and in my own bed every night. If I can't get to sleep I imagine it's two in the morning, there is no moon and the 40 west call has just been made. The first officer is taking a nap and I'm struggling to keep my eyes open. I'm soon pushing out the ZZZZ's. It works every time.

[quid]

"You had your legal rest period, therefore you can't POSSIBLY be tired." ......yeah, sure.

[flyingdutchman]

Dear Hand,

>contact is maintained with the cabin crew at intervals not greater than 20 minutes<

It is not uncommon for this interval to be stretched to 30 minutes plus...

Bit of a worry, as is the 'yes, phase 2 is fitted, but let's operate to phase 1 because the noise wakes me up' procedure.

ATB!

:cool:

[maxy101]

FD , Why is it a worry to operate the doors as phase one if it protects somebodies rest?

[GlueBall]

One of our cockpits actually had a ceiling mounted, simple, spring loaded timer, settable from 5 to 60 minutes. It's a worthwile gadget even when you're not sleeping, especially as a reminder for position reports when crossing the pond, or just for an hourly fuel check. :p

[Squawk7777]

Does the CAA Aeromedical branch have any in-depth studies about fatigue with regards to long haul, time-zone crossing etc. I remember some basic questions in human factors (or whatever the exam was called) however, I am sure that this subject is much more complicated.

And what about t..h...e . . . :zzz:

DO NOT DISTURB! ;) :rolleyes:

[Gorgophone]

I have witnessed a First Officer falling asleep on short finals! Who can control sleep/wakefulness when they are fatigued. By ‘fatigue’ I mean the ground in tiredness which comes over time, when faced with poor rostering; disruption of circadian rhythms etc. The only answer to this is a company which understands the problem and programmes in adequate R & R. (as opposed to one that stays with the ‘profits over safety’ philosophy)

Brian Smith MEP is entering into negotiations with the European Parliament which will, according to Mervyn Granshaw at BALPA, extend pilots’ working hours.

Put your efforts into backing him, or write to your MEP, because once the goalposts are moved it will be impossible to change them back.

[Huck]

I fell asleep once in the flight engineer's seat while filling out the cruise card. My pen slashed abruptly off to one side as I slumped.

I showed it to the captain, and he said, "Hell, boy, when I was on the panel, I once fell asleep while starting the number 2 engine!"

By the way, when I dozed off it was 4 am local time, and I had been on duty for 10 hours....

[pete zahut]

Reminds me of one of ours, who is often rather sleepy, - they call him 'Captain Coma' referring to his awareness on board.....
:zzz:

[fireflybob]

Some comments on this debate.

There is a difference between short term tiredness and long term fatigue. Both can be hazardous with respect to safe flight. I would suggest that continual bad rostering can have an adverse effect on long term fatigue.

Far better that in flight rest be conducted in a pro-active manner- eg Captain says he is going to close his eyes for "x" minutes and to please wake me up at "y" time. Then FO can do the same etc. This is more effective than all on the flight deck trying to stay awake and then someone nods off in the process. When I was on the B707 in the 70's with (dare I say it!) BOAC, as a young Second Officer, I well remember on a night Altantic crossing looking over to see the skipper asleep and then also noting that the flight engineer was also in the same state!

I think it should also be considered that the rest period prior to duty is not just for sleep but also (dare I say it) for some form of recreation. Human beings are not machines and cannot sleep to order, especially after a long duty period. Rest periods of 10 hours or so are, I believe, quite insufficient to enable the average pilot to recharge the batteries prior to a new duty and the idea of longer duty periods etc I find quite horrifying both as a pilot and a fare paying passenger. There obviously has to be some sensible give and take but I feel the time has come for crew members to start drawing lines in the sand in this respect.

[purple haze]

hi all

can someone please explain to me how it works?

if the max duty time is 8hrs for crew , how does the rotation on board work with relief crew, for a flight, for eg. to Rio work.

if there seems to be one relief pilot, how does he/she rotate with crew?

please tell.

regards


PH

[Cross Check]

Short naps have been tried, tested, evaluated and found to be beneficial (there used to be quite a bit of interesting info at NASA's Ames Research Centre website).

I've seen some new articles out recently in HF circles suggesting concepts of "Sleep Inertia" which basically suggest that depending on the individual, the circumstances of drowsiness and the time spent dozing can be detrimental to performance .... Why? Because depending on what point in the sleep cycle the individual was just prior to waking the "lights maybe on, but nobody's home". For periods upto 40+ minutes the effects of sleep can dog the individual - it's the "I'm never fully awake in the mornings until I've had my cup of coffee and read the front page of the paper" syndrome.

Just food for thought ... :)

[Gorgophone]

Filton Man is right; the problems of fatigue happen when FTLs are used as targets, or to be more exact MAX FTLs are used constantly as targets. What is needed is the fair distribution of hours. The campaign for safe Flight Time Limitations bases its information on the CAA's research, consultation and scientific study - including, I think, Nasa Ames' studies.

Brian Simpson MEP seems to think that an unresearched European Parliament's initiative to 'provide a framework' is all that it takes. This is a backward step. If you are concerned tell him at [email protected]

...and invite him to participate in the PPRuNe discussion - that'll make his his curl!

[Pilot Pete]

And for those who want to read a bit more about the proposals and objections to them take a look here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81920)

PP

[Gorgophone]

I also received the standard lettler from Brian Simpson; in my reply I said:

"....
a) When there is a maximum hours set, it is that to which airlines will work. Maybe it is that to which BALPA refers?
b) what if the individual pilot may need more rest? ie the week before a pilot died recently he expressed the wish to rest, but he was not ill so he flew...
c) why would the pilots not agree? they alone know what the risks are. My position is that a reduction of hours is needed with more control over hours given to pilots - in accordance with several research studies. (a sort of flexitime?)
d) I still have to ask what evidence have you based your decision on that makes you think that the changes for new rules on pilot flying hours are safe? (unless they reduce them) There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

What is needed is a person-centred philosophy within aviation. After all, it is the commander who has the legal obligations and responsibilities for the safety of the aircraft. He has no support in that position unless his company is enlightened enough to provide it. That means a company who willingly recognises the profits-over-safety arguments.

I reiterate - a maximum level of working hours will be abused. Working at the max over a period of time will fatigue pilots. It does not allow for work/life balance ie recuperation for individuals. (by the way, how do you work when you are seriously jet-lagged?)"

The answer:-
....With regard to the UK it would be the CAA who, as you will be aware, presently work to regulation CAP 371. The maximum limits are set out quite clearly in my report and are based on present JAA regulations. The UK maximums are clearly set out in CAA regulations and I know it is the intention of the CAA to maintain these levels for the UK. This does not cause me a problem.
I have listened to BALPA and their European body ECA on a number of occasions and was directly involved as a mediator in trying to get all sides of the industry to agree a common position. Sadly this was not to be as the pilots could not agree with the airlines or indeed the trade unions.
I really do feel that there is little point in pursuing this issue any further with you. I come from a trade union background (one that believed in helping fellow trade unions, not just pursuing ones own agenda) and can assure you that I would not propose anything that I felt was dangerous and endangered life.
Yours sincerely
Brian Simpson.

[Pilot Pete]

So when it comes to the first accident post JAR-OPS Sub Part Q where pilot fatigue is a contributary factor how will he justify his claim that he would not propose anything that he felt would be dangerous or endanger life? His opinion on the matter is just not good enough. He needs to back it up with scientific evidence that his proposals will not lead to fatigued pilots. He is thus far refusing to do this.

PP

[Gorgophone]

... what's happened Pilot Pete?

Are they all writing to their MPs, MEPs, BALPA ? or has it gone quiet because they're all fast asleep?:confused:

[Basil]

PH,
Max duty periods vary from 9hrs to 14 hrs depending on number of sectors, local time of start & whether or not acclimatised to local time.
These may be extended by half of any inflight rest achieved.
The captain may also extend these periods by up to 3hrs.
So, as you can see, the max duty period is far in excess of 8hrs.

If all you passengers out there wish to be flown by very fatigued pilots then just let the Euros have their way! :mad:

[Squawk7777]

I just remembered... didn't the AA crash in Little Rock had to do partly with fatigue? I recall reading that the captain was close to his 14hours. I'll post the relevant parts when I find 'em.

[Pilot Pete]

Quiet possibly Gorgophone.

Hopefully when they get some 'leisure time', (another proposal is for 7 consecutive days followed by 36hrs rest ad infinitum) they will write, or else wave goodbye to the wife and kids and life as they know it..............zzzzZZZZZZzzzzz! It's not a case of 'if' the proposals will cause fatigue, it's more a case of just how bad the fatigue will be! :mad:

PP

[Ignition Override]

Squawk 7777: Quite true about the crew, and can you imagine being a new pilot who is on probation and paired with a Chief Pilot?

The only good thing to come out of the crash, other than the survivors, was the brand-new FAA requirement (pilot unions and the NTSB had been prodding the FAA for decades), to allow each crewmember on reserve/standby, to have a designated rest period in each 24 consecutive hours. Without some political embarrassment due to dead people and a focused press spotlight, this newly-legislated rest period might not have happened for a while. This was a first!

The first crash where crew fatigue was blamed as the primary factor (by the NTSB) was the Connie Kallitta DC-8 'cartwheel' crash in Guantanamo Bay NAS, Cuba, years ago; what a terrible image for the end of a flight. How many crashes of cargo jets/turboprops have EVER been well-known among the public? That NTSB ruling was also a first in US commercial aviation history!

Since the beginnings of US aviation, crews have been afraid of losing their jobs if they refused to fly due to serious fatigue, but our friends at the FAA use the regs as the legality for airlines to "push" their pilots. Legality often can not equate to safety. Can a British or Euro airline work you for a 10-hour period and then attach another 9-hour period without rest, because you are now ferrying an empty plane, which is not in revenue service ( operating under our Part 91, instead of Part 121)? See what can legally happen, if your employer orders you to?

All of these reasons help to illustrate why the FAA is known as the "Tombstone Agency", hence the skull and crossbones at the top. If unfamiliar, check into the ATR-42 accidents/incidents in Europe. These were discovered by the FAA (its head was stuck in the sand with eyes closed) well before the crash in Indiana:(

[chukky]

Four sectors a night, a twelve hour duty, NO food (except vending machines at the various stations, selling crisps and chocolate etc), both pilots very tired and feeling bad because you should be in bed. No rest facilities at the outstations (sleep on the plane or in a chair in the DHL offices) All this and eight days with four sectors on and six days off (Belgium). Other people have reported seven days on and two off in the DHL UK base. TNT Co-Pilot (Belgium) stated that he works six on and four off but no guarantee of when in the month your days off are. The only food available is in the hotel (if the restaurant is open before you depart-which sometimes they are not) and then thats it, until breakfast time. Then you try to sleep in the day for your twelve hours (sometimes 10 hours) rest, with hotel noise going on around you. Aeroplanes are dirty inside, twenty years old and poorly maintained (A300, B757). All of this for (Co Pilot approx (after one year) £1650 and Captain (newish) approx £2400 (yes £2400) plus per diems. You start your first day on at about 01:00 in the morning and 99% of the time work into your last day off by around two hours and with no late payment until after four oclock in the morning-on your day off. If you want to move to the left seat it will cost you a bond of 24500 euro (even if joining the company already type rated). This is not what you call fun. This is not sour grapes either-it's true.

[Pilot Pete]

Chukky

Not sure where you got your figures from but DHLUK F/O year one is on £3400 p.m. plus allowances minus tax, N.I. and pension.

PP

[chukky]

Belgium salaries are the ones I quoted.