Westland Scout

[DBChopper]

I've just spotted an advert in Flyer for flying a Westland Scout at £100/hr with The Historic Military Helicopter Club . I think I've seen the ad and an article before, about a Scout flown on a Permit to Fly and I've e-mailed for more details.

In the meantime, does anybody know about this club, or, even better, anyone fly the machine(s) in question?

Thanks folks,

DBChopper

:cool:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Make sure you get them to demonstrate a hydraulic failure in cruise!

[KENNYR]

PPRuNe Fan#1 you are a real sadist!!! Are you trying to put the fellow off flying for the rest of his life? Better have him take a clean pair of skivvies with him!

[Happy Landing !]

I think this club is Thruxton based. Thay have a selection of ex mil types, and sell a few scouts/wasps. All ground staff are also ex mil.

Very friendly bunch (If it's the same lot). Worth a trip down if only to have a look in the hangar !

[DBChopper]

Happy Landing!

Thanks - I thought I remembered the Thruxton link from an article I read. I'll pop along to have a look.

PPRUNE FAN#1 & KENNYR

Come on then - tell us more about this hydraulic failure...

DBChopper

:cool:

[flygunz]

I think the fan is refering to the Scouts wicked desire to flip inverted if manual reversion is attempted above 90 kts. It takes the forearms of Garth and a huge capacity for real ale to get the Queen of the sky under control again.
If you choose to take a ride enjoy the experience, I hope for your sake its well maintained!
:eek:

[The Nr Fairy]

£100 an hour is purely maintenance hourly costs. An extra 60 imperial gallons of fuel an hour needs to be catered for - approx £60 per hour.

So, Scout flying for £160 an hour - beats JetRanger rates in excess of £350 an hour - but no real reduction from R22 hire rates, especially if you can claim back VAT.

However the machines are on a Permit to Fly so no AOC work.

[KENNYR]

FlyGunz.......You remembered! That had to be the scariest thing I have ever had to experience in my flying career. Luckily it never happened to me for real, but it sure was nice to see the student squirm and sweat before he tried to kill me in the engine off area!

[The Nr Fairy]

Several AAIB bulletins to read carefully :

1. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/dec00/gbzbd.htm
This one in particular has similarities to the hydraulic problems referred to above.

2. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/jul02/gbxsl.htm

3. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/dec00/gbynz.htm

4. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/nov00/gbxrl.htm

[flygunz]

I stopped reading after the first two reports as I was beginning to feel a rant coming on. I have a big problem with anyone thinking they can fly a Scout safely with only a few hours on type and I would be concerned for anyone going for a pleasure ride with a low time wannabe at the controls.
When the Military trained Pilots to fly the Scout they had already flown Gazelle and even then they were given 40 hours of training. Now before anyone jumps down my throat about tactical training, there was very little on the Scout conversion, most of the time was pure handling, IF and EOLs. EOLs, there was only one real technique for this autorotative brick with short stubby wings, and that was 50 kts to ground rush then... flarechecklevelkeepitstraight.......... :D Hope that comes across ok?
The reason for all this GH?.... The Scout would bite yer ass if she wasn't handled properly and many an ass has been bitten over the years including mine!
So DBchops, think first, check out the operation, see who does the maint, ask how experienced the Pilot is on the machine and his recency. Above all, if he asks you if you want to see what the baby can do.... decline.
Rant over....sorry!!:O

[t'aint natural]

I do believe the conditions of the Scout's Permit to Fly make Vne 80kt because hydraulic failure becomes too much of a handful above that speed.

[KENNYR]

FlyGunz, I agree 150% with you, but I managed to read them all. The Scout, in the hands of a low time civilian PPL(H) holder should be classed as a deadly weapon. I found the beast to be difficult to fly at times, especially when we were in Monterrey, California (Heavy, Hot and High).

Why the powers to be allowed this Military workhorse to become a civilian is beyond my comprehension. You remember the problems they had with the Cabin Heat Control and the Fuel Cock being confused with each other so that fuel was getting turned off when it got cold?!?!?

Who are the pilots at Thruxton, does anyone know. I am sure that at least one or two, if they are ex-Corps, will have some Scout experience.

With regards to the EOL, you forgot the most important thing

.............FlarechecklevelkeepitstraightOhshiiiiiiiiiii@ii iiiiiiit!!!!................

[tabdy]

Best helicopter I've flown probably because it was my first. Hydraulic failure is not a big problem - just a bit heavy on the controls until you have slowed down. One can still hover without hydraulics although it is easier to slowly run-on to land.

Engine-offs are a bit quick until you get used to them. On the other hand it is much easier to pick you landing point because there is not much choice - it has a fairly steep glide angle once the engine has stopped. I think I would be safe in saying that fewer pilots have been hurt following an engine failure than in most other types. At one time the engine was very unreliable. I would rather land a Scout onto rough ground or a ploughed field than a Jetranger - I have plenty of experience on both. Nonsense to say you have to run-on. You can do a zero speed as easily as any other helicopter but you must remain in practice with the scout because there is not a large margin of inertia in the rotor - but being so strong it can drop harder without damage compared to the more delicate helicopters.

[B47]

BDChopper,

Re. the possible choice of Scout, my question would be 'Why?'

With due respect to the ex-mil guys who are operating these on the civilian register, I don't think it's a sensible choice for PPL flying.

For equal 'ex-mil' appeal, the Bell 47 Sioux will give you as much fun, cheaper per hour and much, much safer to EOL.

If not a piston, then how about an Allouette? But, there's no such thing as a cheap turbine, especially if its ex-military. This would be my choice above the Scout or Gazelle.

[KENNYR]

Always did love the 47G4 and the Sioux. They are definately a better choice for an economical trainer/private helicopter. They certainly are superb in the event of a donkey stop. Given the choice I would have the Soloi converted Bell47.

Tabdy.......You are being very blase about the Scout. How many thousands of hours do you have on the machine? Just out of interest are you ex-AAC.

[flygunz]

Tadby, you've competely missed the point ( or have you?). A low time ppl flying a Scout is an accident waiting to happen. The advice to DB was to check who plans to be at the controls for his flight.
The bottom line here is that the trainers who initially carried out the conversions ceased to do so due to the poor experience and quality level of potential convertees, any comment on that?
Read the accident reports. The defence rests m'lud.

Ken......
;)

[CyclicRick]

I did 4.9 hrs on scouts as a AAC crewman...loved it!
I liked the way they hop across the pan when winding up, especially when the last pilot had pulled on the rotor brake a bit hard and all the blades went out of sync.
Does anyone remember a certain Captain who was picking up a General for a trip and left his dpm jacket on the engine deck and it got sucked into the engine on start up? Did we laugh????

[KENNYR]

I remember it, but I dont remember the details. I do remember that it caused a huge stink (and not because the jacket was shredded). Remind us of the details please.

[The Scout]

As a low time civilian amateur PPL (H) on Scouts (170 hrs plus 1200hrs on other, non rotary things) I suppose I just have to accept that I am, in the opinion of those ex-army pprune heroes, just another deadly accident waiting to happen.

I can’t see any point in defending my favourite flying dump truck against such a wealth of experience but I can admit that I do enjoy flying the brute hugely.

I love the sheer crudity of the thing. I’ve tried a Gazelle and it makes the Scout feel like a jeep compared to a Ferrari. The Ferrari is lovely but for everyday use I really want a jeep.

It’s not that fast and a headwind can make you mutter but the power is something else. I did my ab initio training in high and hot California and so was never really sure that I had enough power to come into a high hover when two up in a Schweizer. No such problem in the Scout.

It’s amazingly heavy if you chop the hydraulics but it is definitely flyable by anything slightly stronger than a wimp. A couple of years ago I was at Thruxton when the CAA did a series of test runs during which they chopped the hydraulics at speeds up to 110 knots. The pilot (an attractive figure….he does my annual checks) isn’t built like Tarzan and he seemed unfazed by the experience.

I accept that the Scout E.O.L’s are a spectator sport most of the way down with all the input over the last few seconds. To compensate I always dial in the wind direction on the compass and fly just teeny bit higher to give me a few more yards of gliding.

I also accept that four of the Scouts have crashed in civilian hands but it’s a testament to something (luck?) that everybody managed to walk or crawl away. Literally in the case of the guys who autoed into a flooded quarry, the only ones who seem to have had some sort of inexplicable power failure.

One pilot lost tail rotor authority in a slow right hand descending spiral close to the ground in marginal viz….not a clever position for anybody with a left turning rotor system to put themselves into and another destroyed his aircraft just 15 short minutes after finishing his conversion….it is very, very twitchy in pitch. The last one had water in the fuel…hardly a fault of the aircraft.

I did ask an ex-military man to show me what a Scout could do. I have never been so frightened in my life but I did realise that we civilians actually fly it at only about 40% of it’s capability……….it’s going to be a sad day when I have to give it up…I think a recession is about to hit us.

The Scout

[KENNYR]

The Scout.......we are not ex-mil heroes as you so eloquently put it. We are just very experienced rotory pilots who converted onto the Scout after having flown fixed wing and other helicopters. This was a mandatory qualification before even applying for the conversion. This requirement wasnt because the military wanted high time pilots....it was because they recognized the "bite-back-ability" of the Scout.

So please dont think that FlyGunz and Myself are heroes, we're just trying to inform low time ppl(h) holders that the Scout needs to be flown with the utmost respect.

I was trying to advise DBCHOPPER not to be too blase when flying or even talking about the Scout. It bites:}

[Happy Landing !]

Saw a guy do a "Demo" of the scout at Kemble last year.
He started in the hover at about 7 or 8 feet and chopped it to the ground. It landed with a bang I can tell you.

Afterwards I asked him why......

He informed me that he was demonstrating the brick shi*house build of the beast, and in it's Navy guise was alway's landed on decks very hard !

Mind you, Denise Kenyon followed him in the 300 ! WoW

[The Scout]

Kennyr

I took the Scout down to Thruxton yesterday and was followed in by a very snazzy Gazelle containing an experienced Scout pilot (1000+hrs) who is undergoing conversion training. It looked absolutely gorgeous (good enough to eat) but I do now understand why they call it the Whistling Drumstick.

Nevertheless I was amused to see that the owner was HATING it and had to be forcibly restrained from kicking his new machine. He was really questioning why he was upgrading to a Gazelle. It was costing him twice as much to fly and the handling made the Scout feel like he was comparing a cosy,much loved armchair with a bar stool on ice.

You will be amused to hear that, as a Scout pilot, he was keen to complain about the Gazelle autos, which he felt were not steep enough. It climbed when he entered and, with the lever flat down, he was careering about the countryside, trying to lose height whilst keeping the Nr under control. (he should be so lucky)

He felt the Scout offered less options and this concentrated the mind on the important bits, the flare and levelling. Dump the lever, turn it into wind, and flare, level, check, pull, dump at the bottom.

I accept that conversions to a new machine can be a difficult time but this man feels that the Scout is massively easier to fly than the Gazelle by an order of magnitude. I have to say that I agree with him. Compared, for instance, to a Robinson R22 the Scout is a complete doddle. If that is really the case what is it about the Scout that gives it a reputation for bite-back-ability?

By the end of the conversation I was pretty convinced that he was going to retain his Scout and his Gazelle was just about to be history. (Hmmm! If I sell the children into slavery maybe, just maybe, I could ……maybe not.)

In conversation he recalled, as you do, that, in the forces, pilots were not allowed on the Scout before they had something like 160 hrs on other things, notably the Gazelle. Make no mistake, I’d love a Gazelle for the extra 25 knots and the sexy looks but I am, regrettably, much too poor at the moment.

I’m always ready to learn so, in the Scout v Gazelle debate that constantly goes on in my wallet, I’d like to hear some more arguments in favour of the Scout, a machine that you appear to have very happily survived. As far as I can tell the problems have been connected to pilots using the excess of available power, which overcomes the tail rotor authority if manoeuvring hard, close to the ground and with a low airspeed.

The Gazelle is hardly squeaky clean on that subject. There seem to be a plethora of sudden and unexpected twizzles reported. A tad of left pedal left in for a fraction of a second is reported to have done for many a fine ego.

The Scout

(Who, with a roll-over lottery win, really wouldn’t mind at all if he added to his handle to “The Gazelle”)….but I’d still keep the Scout.

[KENNYR]

I cannot believe that this chap does not like the Gazelle. I have over 3,000 hours on the Gazelle and I loved every second of those hours. I also flew Scout, Bell 47, Bell 206 and R22. The Scout is a pilots helicopter, its a workhorse. Very strong, no luxuries. Can I ask who the pilots are at Thruxton teaching the conversion courses? If you dont want to name them here you can always leave me a private message or e-mail me. Thanks...............Ken.

[pilotwolf]

I think Mike Green of Fast is the only one approved for the conversion, in the UK.

[flygunz]

Scout, an amusing story of this 'chap' with a thousand hours on the Scout, wouldn't own one would he? Now what did you say...

"It climbed when he entered and, with the lever flat down, he was careering about the countryside, trying to lose height whilst keeping the Nr under control. (he should be so lucky)"

Sounds like he can't fly either properly and I would draw your attention to the original meat of the posts. In the hands of low time PPL(H) wannabes the Scout and the Gazelle (lets drag that in as well) are accidents waiting to happen. The examples that you mentioned, (technical term was it 'twizzles' ) were Pilot error and once again low time pilot error, read those reports.

The Scout is a fine helicopter and those of us who do have many thousands of hours on the beast love it dearly. The Gazelle is also a grand machine and in safe, competent hands will behave properly.
I did wonder from your post if you were becoming a legend in your own lunchtime but I just reckon you have a vested interest in the Thruxton Scout thing and therefore are talking it up for their street credibility.
Fly safe and remember the Scout left wrist twitch, it may save your life!!!

[The Scout]

Flygunz hi!

You are correct about low time pilots being involved in Scout accidents but I suspect that we low timer amateurs are a problem in any kind of flying machine.

You said
“I did wonder from your post if you were becoming a legend in your own lunchtime but I just reckon you have a vested interest in the Thruxton Scout thing and therefore are talking it up for their street credibility”

Not sure about the “lunchtime” reference but you are absolutely correct about my vested interest in the “Thruxton Scout thing”.

As a Scout owner I have a huge interest in the continued health of my maintenance operation especially as there don’t seem to be too many other options open to me. At the moment I get an amusing reception, a cup of tea and a comparatively modest bill from them. I’m not too technical so my assumption, based on the fact that everything on the aircraft always seems to be working, is that I’m getting proper maintenance as well.

Further to that I am an unashamed fan of the aircraft itself….I’ve never hidden that fact and I want it to be quite clear that I fly a Scout because, at some visceral level, I enjoy everything about it and it’s not because I can’t afford a Gazelle. (I can’t by the way)

I feel very safe in the Scout; it always seems to do what I want and, so far, has not shown the slightest inclination to bite me. I admit I’m not the most aggressive of pilots so it always seems massively more capable than I am.

I will admit that I am a bit twitched by the steepness of the autos but, at the point where it matters you don’t seem to have to work harder or faster than on the other machines I’ve E.O.L.’d to the ground. R22,R44, 206, 300CB.

I compensate by flying a bit higher just to give me more thinking and turning time.

I also accept that it probably costs the same as an R22 to fly but, in my limited experience, it’s twice as easy and I prefer the image. Fat-old-git-in-a-truck is slightly less hideous than a fat-old-git-in-a-sports-car.

Anyway, I’m running out of money fast, the Scout might have to go so it is also in my interest to let others know that I’ve had three years of utterly useless fun in a cheap, reliable, easy to fly turbine helicopter. And, Mr Chancellor, I’d like at least another year.

On the question of turbine versus reciprocating; Am I missing something? Reading through Pprune there is a running presumption that turbines are only for big boys and yet my limited experience suggests that a 300 or R22 pilot is obliged to have ten times the engine and Nr management skills of a Scout pilot. (and other single turbine machines)

Starting and stopping the Scout seems ridiculously easy when compared to any reciprocating aero engine I’ve ever come across. You just pour in the fuel, wind it up and beggar off in as many seconds as it takes to scan the gauges and check the hydraulics. It’s just as simple and quick to stop as well.

Sorry….blathering too much,,,I’ll get my coat......and thanks, I'll keep that left hand twitch going

The Scout

[DBChopper]

Firstly, thanks for the many interesting posts. As the originator of this thread, I was making a fairly idle enquiry about an ad I'd seen in a flying magazine, but, as with so many rotorheads threads, it has developed into quite a lively discussion.

One point which I note from this and many other threads is the horror expressed by some, that low-time PPL(H)s are let lose on these ex-military machines and, sometimes, ANY helicopter at all! I probably won't be flying the Scout, due to a lack of capital and the distance I would have to travel to fly it, but if circumstances were different then chances are, I would. Thinking back (not that long ago, admittedly) to when I first started my PPL(H) course, if I'd listened to many people I would never had got into an R22, but here I am...

My point being, is it not a state of mind that prevents accidents rather than simply the type of machine? While I do recognise that some machines will be more complex or difficult to fly than others and that a pilot with thousands of hours is going to be far more proficient than me, I have witnessed both CPL(H)s and instructors fly, on a few occasions, in an appallingly cowboyish and reckless way, while some low-time PPL(H)s approach their flying in a higly disciplined manner.

I know there will always be good and bad examples of both professional and private flying, but what do you think? And what can we fly without the whole world cowering beneath us?

Any views?

DBChopper
:cool:

[paco]

Some of us went straight from the Sioux to the Scout directly after the pilot course - there was no rule then about going from the Gazelle on to it, and the Gazelle was in service.

I'm not so sure that training on other types like the Gazelle is a good idea anyway - I certainly don't think that a PPL would necessarily find the Scout a problem, provided the training is OK. It's the same argument about taildraggers and the "special" training you need - I can't remember any trouble with the Beaver!

The same with the Scout - I flew many happy hours in it as my first turbine, but that was probably because I didn't know any better.

I remember Red Meaton once went over to the Ugandan Police for some recurrent training and expressed concern that the overtorque warning was going every time they took off - apparently they thought that it was just there to tell them they'd left the ground!

Phil

[breakscrew]

I'm with Paco on this. Most of our Scout Flight went straight from the Sioux (on their pilots course) onto the Scout and then out into a Germany winter. No problems with low time, inexperienced pilots flying it. I reckon that an R22 is far more dangerous in any circumstance when compared to the mighty Scout!

[Airtoday]

Hi

I have come on to your thread a bit late I guess but I was one of those who went from the Bell 47 (Sioux) to the Scout and whatever I have flown since does not compare to the "Queen of the Skies"...otherwise known as the brick ****house The incomparable "Westland Scout"

Regards to all

[The Scout]

Airtoday Hi!

thanks for you message. I was, originally, feeling a bit of a lonely nerd in my appreciation of my machine but I've had a number of messages from others who, like you, have been similarly captivated by our "bit of rough".

Not pretty but who cares. Does exactly what it says on the label and doesn't cost a fortune.

I met a man a few years ago who flew the early Scouts which were prone to engine failure. At ten thousand feet above the ground he was in full autorotation and had picked his spot in the paddy below.

Having thererfore, three spare minutes, he turned to the Gurhka observer beside him and said "I've bet you've never done this before".

"Oh yes Sahib. My third engine failure"

"Really? ...er...perhaps you'd like to do this one for me?"

offer was politely refused and the machine was put down unbent.

The Scout

[paco]

I just remember that if you threw a manhole cover out, you'd be down before it :)

Phil