Pilot Drop Out Rate

[KCDW]

A friend, interested in flying has asked me this question. I can't even guess the answer - can any instructors out there provide an idea?

What is the drop out rate for trainee PPLs?

I would like to add my own question:

What proportion of PPLs let their license lapse by their first renewal (ie 2 years post license issue)?

Anyone got a clue?

[Tinstaafl]

Hard to quantify. What criteria do you use to define 'drop out'? Not fly for 6 weeks? 6 months? 6 years?

A better way might be to look at the number of SPLs, PPLs, CPLs & ATPLs that are issued/renewed, then compare that to the number of Class 1 & 2 medicals that are also current.

Since very nearly all SPL holders have the intent of gaining a PPL or CPL then the change in numbers between SPL and the higher licences could be informative. Ditto the comparison between all licences & medicals.

[MLS-12D]

I can't find the reference, but I seem to recall reading somewhere (not very authoritative, is it!) that >75% of all student pilots quit before completing the private license, and that >75% of all PPLs quit flying within five years of becoming licensed.

This article on AvWeb provides some ideas about why the student dropout rate is so high: http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182185-1.html

I don't know why some many pilots quit after they have qualified, but it's probably a combination of money pressures, time pressures, and boredom. The last problem is the key, since most people will somehow find the time and money to pursue almost any activity if they are sufficiently interested.

When flying is so interesting, how can people get bored? Well, for one thing, most of us never graduate beyond flying circuits and perhaps the odd 1-2 hour cross-country flight (the famous '$100 hamburger'). Unless you own your own airplane, or at least a share in one, the minimum daily rentals are a significant disincentive to more adventurous flying. Also, some instructors deliberately or unconsciously educate their students to fear cross-country flying (see the first chapter in Frank Kingston Smith's wonderful book, "Weekend Wings"), or crosswinds, or what have you. If people are afraid, it's not surprising that they quietly bow out.

There are plenty of opportunities for challenges and fun beyond the PPL (air racing, soaring, float flying, aerobatics, glider towing, overseas 'aerial safaris', etc.), but you do have to look for them.

[Kolibear]

I think that the figures for the UK are that 'most' PPLs will fly 50 hours after getting their license before stopping.


As MLS points out - its probably due to time & money.

As a student you are mentally committed to giving up large chunks of time and money to get your license, but as a new PPL, all of a sudden you are on your own. There is no incentive to fly, no exams to pass, no lessons booked.

As a PPL, it may be that you can't afford to fly as often as you did as a student, so you decide on a sensible budget, lets say £150 per month, which might be 1 - 1/5 hours club hire.

So after flying friends and family around and visiting nearby airfields, then the novelty wears off. After all, an hour will only give you 25 minutes radius, by the time you've done the checks and queued at the hold.

So whats the answer? I wish I knew. As far as Flying Schools are concerned, so long as there is a constant throughput of students, they are not going to be particularly bothered about what happens to PPLs. If the number of students drops and the aircraft become under utilised, then they might start to worry.

The gliding fratenity, I think, have a series of goals that can be worked towards and it has been suggested that a similar scheme be introduced for PPLs.

I reached the 'PPL + 50' last year and was frankly getting bored. But I was in the fortunate position of being able to afford to buy a share in an aircraft and now I'm enjoying the benefits of cheaper flying.

What we need is a mid-point supplier, someone who is not a school, but isn't selling a share. Someone who will rent an aircraft to a PPL cheaper than a club, but without the large fee of a share.

I would recommend to all new PPLs that they try and find another PPL to share their flying - its so much more rewarding.

[FlyingForFun]

I think Kolibear has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Many people decide that learning to fly would be a cool idea. They go to the airfield, get quoted 45 hours minimum at £100/hour. Of course, they know they won't get their license in the mimum, so that add a bit more onto that, then some more again for all the books, etc. Being sensible people, they figure they need £6000 before they can learn to fly. So they save their money, and when they can afford £6000 they go and get a PPL.

Then it hits them - spending money on flying is something which doesn't stop when you get your PPL.

To say that people run out of money is, I think, too simplistic. I think it's more realistic to say that PPL students simply don't put any thought into how they'd like to continue their flying career after getting the PPL.

Occassionally, people who have little connection to flying will ask me about it, and the subject of cost inevitably comes up. I tell them that they're looking at £100-£200 per week, minimum, depending on the cost of their school and how much time they actually spend flying. Once they get their license, the cost might come down. What I never say (any more!) is "it will cost you £6000", or "it will take 45 hours minimum". Because getting the PPL is not the aim - enjoying flying for the rest of your life is.

FFF
---------------

[In Altissimus]

The original question was mainly about trainee drop-out rates.

After four straight GFT cancellations due to the Great British Weather I am certainly wondering why I bother!

I think that the myth that the flying mags perpetuate, i.e. that a VFR licence is of some practical use in this country, doesn't help the situation with students - many of whom have unrealistic expectations.

And as we know, there are some VERY dodgy flying schools out there which must surely put a lot of people off...

Sorry for the rant - just a bit frustrated at the moment.

[Wily Coyote]

I gave up a few months ago, after completing 1.5 hours solo circuit time.

Reasons?

Total disenchantment with the whole flying industry. The old-fashioned attitudes that are part of the flying community (present company excepted of course!). I started for fun, realised that a flying career would be great so adjusted my attitude accordingly, then spent the next few months being put off by the so-called aviation professionals I met time after time :( One day I finally got sick of it and decided to have a break for a few months to think about what I wanted to do.

I no longer have the choice, having recently packed in a well-paid but hellish job for a fantastic job with prospects instead of money :) The pay cut was a major part of my flying budget but tbh, it was the easiest decision I've had to make for a long time.

I still look at the sky constantly, I still wish I could follow the dream but reality kicks in after a few minutes and I realise that I could never fit in with the sort of people I met whilst learning. :rolleyes:

Sounds a bit harsh I suppose, and I WILL fly again - anyone know any decent microlight clubs in the west yourkshire area? :D

Wily

[Ace Rimmer]

Sorry to hear about your twarted dream Wily but I'm also a little surprised. Not only is flying leisure activity for me (and main consumer of disposable income) but I also work in the industry (ok journo scum etc etc) and one of the the attractions (both work wise and in free time) I've found is the people that you meet.
Of course there are ar**holes in all walks of life but there seem to be fewer in aviation..maybe if you tried another club or training establishment you'd see things differently...cash aside it may re-kindle your enthusiasum?

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Why do people drop out? In my opinion, because it's not fun any more. It comes down to the issues we were talking about earlier this week in the "teaching real flying" thread.

"Aimless" local flying post-PPL gets dull after a bit, and as BlokeInAnArcher said, VFR flying in the UK isn't really much practical use. If you have to get somewhere (rather than if you just want to get somewhere), and if you have to get back home again, you will drive / take the train / use the airlines.

There is plenty of fun flying to be had, at fairly reasonable prices, but it isn't offered by the flying clubs.

Some people stop because they can't afford it, but in most cases if you can afford to get the licence, you can afford to keep it afterwards.

[KCDW]

Have to say that I am mildly surprised that the drop out rates could be as high as 75% both prior to and post license. Amazes me that this hobby survives, and instructors make any money!

As for the other thread coming out of this. I too hit a bit of a stone wall coming out of PPL, deciding what to do with it, the hours dropped like a stone, currency was marginal, and when I managed to motivate myself, all I did was refresher stuff and circuits. Not good.

My answer was to keep challenging myself, keep pushing out the boundaries bit by bit, and establish targets. For example visit a certain number of new airfields, do a cross channel etc.

This year, its do the IMC, fly family to Duxford, and fly family to Gettysburg! (I’m a history buff too).

Already planning next year’s challenges – so far its upgrade to complex, and Isle of Wight.

Ultimately, fly my share owned complex down for holidays in the Med.

When you start stretching, the hobby comes alive again.
:D

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Evo,

There's a lot one can do in a club environment as a new PPL. Obviously it spoils a bit if your home airfield is underwater, but there are usually some other options within a reasonable distance.

My personal route was:


A few solo cross countries until I felt competent to take passengers;
Get checked out on new and different aircraft. It gave me the opportunity of flying at different airfields, with different instructors and was a lot of fun. I even got checked out on a Tomahawk, just to see what it was like!
Aerobatics. I started when I had about 65 hours. It gives you a great excuse to fly, and 30 mins is quite long enough to have fun.
SLMG rating, followed by learning to fly a few different types of SLMG. Followed by a share in an RF4 (£1500, and £20/hr).
"Complex" aircraft checkout.
Lots of cost-sharing flights with friends - either flying aeros, and critiquing each others (poor) performance, or cross countries where you can go twice as far by sharing.
Tailwheel checkout.
IMC.
Etc....

Don't worry about trying to get solo hours. I had 250 hours before I reached 100 hours solo, but I never got bored with flying and learnt a lot from a lot of good instructors along the way.

Hang in there!:)

[Tinstaafl]

From comments on PPRuNe seems clubs in the UK aren't very 'club-like'. Don't they have...


monthly flying competitions including a trophy for most points etc

navigation competitions,

annual or semi annual comps. with other local clubs

Those three above tie in well with a hangar BBQ/party

organised fly-aways: You have the WHOLE of Europe to explore!

organised flying nights (give people a 'taster' and hire a movie & projector + booze postlight),

excursions as a group to do things that are difficult to organise individually (eg fire training, submersion training, altitude training, ATC visits etc etc etc...)

[tomcs]

Thats a good point...what do these clubs do as clubs. I fortunately belong to a very good club...Old Sarum! We have things like the annual navigation competition which is always a laugh...and the annual flyout to Alderney. Last year they took 72 people in various aircraft. We quite frequently have BBQ nights in the summer and i think we have a fish and chip night coming up quite soon!

And on the topic of the drop out rate...i really dont understand it...I've been hooked since the age of about 10! And i cant understand how someone with a PPL would not want to use it. I'm doing ATPLs now...but as KCDW said...set goals...I've just done my Night and IMC ratings in two weeks in order to get myself ready for this coming year of fun :)...the only problem with that is that you have to pay approach charges :P

Tom

[bluskis]

Maybe Tinstaffl has hit the nail. It used to be after flying time was spent with a few beers in the bar with other pilots of a vast range of experience.

With the demise of drinking and driving how many social hours are spent in the company of other pilots other than on pprune.

So perhaps this is the place to link up with others for joint flights. Problem is it would be like a blind date.

[Whirlybird]

No, most flying clubs aren't like clubs. Once you get your PPL, you're on your own. So you have to find your own way. Flying with another PPL is DEFINITELY the way to go. Half the money, twice the fun, half the work - and you can do things that would probably be verging on being too high a workload for only one newish PPL. So you might have to ask around - on here for instance - or move to another club. Or save like mad over winter and do loads of flying in the summer. There are ways...if you think it's worth it. But I guess a lot of people just don't really want to.

[flickoff]

Dosh is the answer in almost all cases I suspect, second to not having a mentor or buddy who can give inspiration.

I was so fortunate when I was immediatly post PPL in having a local flying school owner who was keen with a capital K to expand people's horizons. Not only would he hire you an a/c (got to make a living) but he would suggest things and come with you to show you the ropes, always pushing you that little bit further. Much more value than any discounted rates or cheap hours. Buddy up with someone with a passion.

I have been into my local flying club on a Saturday and looked for someone to sit in the RHS for a trip to France or Germany or wherever and no one wants to go. They are institutionalised into going nowhere. Equally, when I have been stuck somewhere in my dial free aircraft due to weather, I have phoned the club and said, find someone to fly the airway equipped a/c to the ILS equipped airfiedl I am stuck at the fetch me, and no one wants to know. PPL training schools are the aviation equivelant of your granny driving her fiesta to Tescos and back.


On the dosh front, if it were no object and you could take a three week break to go to Malaga or Cassablanca who would not do it. Counting the pennies and aviation are mutually exclusive, sorry, wrong hobby.

[EastMids]

What I find bizarre are the number of people who go up to the flying club (post PPL) and simply tootle around the local area for 45 minutes every couple of weeks. Post PPL, flying can still be fun, interesting, and entertaining, even using club aircraft. I fly with another PPL which does help reduce the costs a bit, but seven years since completing a PPL we've both still no intention of giving up, we're both still flying as regularly as anyone else, and we're still finding new places to go and things to do. Most of those people we've seen over the last seven years or so, who just fly round the local area once in a while, drop out sooner or later.

I think a fair number of people learn to fly because it sounds like an interesting thing to do. Lets be honest though, whilst you're doing a PPL course, you're pretty much spoon fed - do this, go there, etc. Post PPL, all of a sudden you have to make a bit of an effort to find new and different things to do, and those people who don't want to make that effort, can't be bothered, drop out sooner or later, probably fairly soon after they've taken all of their friends and families flying.

Andy

[chipped prop]

without seeming to state the obvious obtaining your ppl is a great personal boost.For some the next goal may be entirely different,hence the drop outs also some may become fed up with the cost of club aircraft and buzzing around on a local. On the south coast at Shoreham shares can be obtained in 150's so cheap you think there must be a catch but not so. also the tarmac runway allows you to fly when many grass airfields are closed in the rainy seasons.Flying with like minded friends visiting different places albeit slowly and sharing costs is the key to having a good time as a ppl any flying mag shows shares for sale often at a bargain price.

[28thJuly2001]

What I find bizarre are the number of people who go up to the flying club (post PPL) and simply tootle around the local area for 45 minutes every couple of weeks.
And what is wrong with that?
I find a tootle around the local area and some circuits just as much fun now as I did 2 years ago.
28th,,

[Barney_Gumble]

Interesting thread this....I almost gave up at the beginning of this year. After gaining my PPL in May 2001 I felt it was a huge achievement and really wanted to fly. Then I started a couple of flights solo and began to feel less and less confident. The time between flights grew longer and I just began to worry about every little thing....engine failure, getting lost, crashing on landing etc etc. I was very happy to fly with other PPLs but not solo. I didn't feel that I could deal with any emergency situations.

Anyway, I met a fellow new PPL outside the flying school one day and we started to fly together and that helped. I had to make a decision whether I really wanted to continue even though I was beginning to find excuses not to go flying....sounds daft I know! I bit the bullet and forced myself to get up there solo and now I think I have cracked the nervous feeling. Now we have both bought a share in a simple single and now am looking forward to learning more skills. The others members of the group are all more experienced than me and the group fly together very regularly.

I notice AOPA are introducing a scheme similar the gliding system of bronze, silver, gold and platinum wings. I think this is an excellent idea and I look forward to more details in due course. I would like to embark upon this to give some focus to self improvement in my flying. AOPA's General Aviation Feb 2003 issue Page 5 mentions about it.

I must say that having been granted my PPL I felt that I had achieved a very basic standard of flying. This was different from what I thought I would feel like at the beginning of the PPL training.

Lastly on the subject of fly-ins, because I am now outside the school environment I am looking for fly-ins to go to that would stretch me. There is a Private Flyers PPRuNe fly-in at Duxford (5th April) that I am planning to attend so maybe PPRuNe is taking the place of the traditional club fly-in.

Andy

P.S. I got my first "post skills test" rating renewal today :D

[ChrisVJ]

Sometimes amongst all the words there is suddenly a thread that hits home, and sometimes there are ideas on it that that are really useful.

I stopped flying thirty years ago for lots of reasons, cost, lack of access but particularly for the loss of the social aspect. Now my flying is unbelievably cheap, at leat by UK standards, but some of the other problems remain and here are some ideas to get over that hump. Thank you all.

[EastMids]

28thJuly2001 said: And what is wrong with that? I find a tootle around the local area and some circuits just as much fun now as I did 2 years ago

Nothing wrong with it, 28th. If that's what keeps you and some others happy, that's great. However, I suspect that quite a few new PPLs do fly around the local area in their club two or four seaters for a while, and then get bored with it and eventually give up. Of course, cost can an issue in terms of going further, but there's a whole world away from the local flying area and exploring it by air is what's kept me flying for more than seven years. If I'd not been able to do that, I'd have probably given up... oh, about five years ago!

Andy

[Whirlybird]

Barney,

Everyone is underconfident because none of us can afford to fly enough. I have 500+ hours, and i still worry about every little thing, especially if I haven't flown for a while. I worry especially about flying f/w when most of my flying is rotary, and I amaze people sometimes by refusing to fly solo because I don't feel safe. And this is part of the problem - I seem to be one of relatively few people who will talk about these fears. Flying clubs are full of people trying to behave as though they're confident pilots, when actually they're scared ****less...and if they're not, they probably should be. If we all admitted it we'd be more likely to help each other out, it would be easier to ask someone to fly with you for a few circuits, as a safety pilot, or to come on a trip to share the workload. Just what is it about flying that makes people so determined to put on this act of appearing to know it all?

[28thJuly2001]

I agree with the opinion that cost is a major factor why I and I presume other PPL's don't venture far.
I must admit that I sometimes wonder why I spend £100 just to potter about over the Brecon Beacons for the umpteenth time, but then I realise it is because I CAN.
I try to do at least one landaway a month to keep my interest up and fill the rest of my flying 'allowance' with a quick tootle around the local area or a few circuits if the weather is dodgy.
This suits me fine, of course I would love to do a 3 hour cross country and travel further afield but I doubt if Mrs 28th would be happy if I spent £300 on a days flying.
ho hum......
and I didn't win the lottery
:mad: my private airfield will have to wait until next week.
28th,,

[knobbygb]

I'm also at that post PPL stage where I've seen all the local area, taken friends and family up, and need to 'spread my wings' as it were. Although I've no thought of giving up, I must admit I looked out the window at the glorious weather we're having at the moment, thought about going flying, and though "No, can't be bothered".

It's been said before, but the main thing that disillusions me is the weather. I can't complain because I knew what to expect - I was under no illusion that the basic PPL would be useful as a tool for getting from A to B. It's just that the thought of going beyond the loca area, getting stuck in weather, screwing up everybody else's flying because the aircraft isn't available, having to stay over in a hotel etc. etc. just put me off. I've no shortage of places I'd like to visit and I'll set off to the airfield with a nice 100-mile long line drawn on the map and end up doing stalls and PFL's in the training area yet again.

I think the answer for me will be to fly abroad more. I just got back from 6 days in SW Florida and it was thouroughly(?) enjoyable. STILL managed to miss a whole days flying due to weather though :mad: Next I want to fly in France, Greece etc. etc. but I can't afford it at the moment. Still, it's somthing to look forward to - I lack neither the will nor confidence to do these things so I think it's just a matter of time.

People are right in that the Pprune fly-ins are definatley somthing to look forward to. 5th April is only 7 weeks away :D but I can't help but think that the weather might have somthing to say about that day too!

So, in summary, I believe many people must give up because of (a) the weather and (b) the restrictions of hourly aircraft hire. It would be interesting to compare drop-out figures here with other countries.

[Barney_Gumble]

Hi Whirls,

Following up on your point concerning confidence.......This is a subject worthy of a separate discussion thread of it's own.

I have always lacked confidence when flying. During my PPL training I thoroughly enjoyed the dual training, but as soon as the solo X-Country phase came along I struggled with the lessons. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on which way you look at it) I can be very stubborn and do not like to be beaten by a challenge, so I continued.

In fact I would say that my worst flying day so far was my 150nm solo X-Country. The route was EGKB DCT EGMD DCT EGKG DCT EGKB. All went well until I arrived back at Biggin whereupon I could not see Kenley and could not see Biggin and was really confused about a jet landing on the ILS. I received a left base join for 03 and could not seem to orientate myself correctly, I could not even convince myself which was my left and right hand! Anyway the ATCO asked me if I was OK to which I said "No I am a tired tyro I cannot see the other traffic and I don't understand your instructions". The pilot of the jet listening to my r/t volunteered to break off his approach and I received almost a talkdown service from APP and then TWR. I didn't get a chance to thank the other pilot.

Nowadays the situation is better, but even now, like you, if I haven't flown for a while I start wondering again. The club I was in were very supportive but the key for me was flying with another newly qualified PPL. Now I have a little over 100hrs and am just beginning to enjoy flying the aircraft that I recently bought a share in. The group is excellent and all the members (6 in total) and really helpful, the majority shareholder/owner has recently had a book published about group ownership that has been reveiwed in AOPA's GA publication.(sorry didn't mean to give a commercial plug!)

I have been a little stubborn and that combined with a little luck in meeting the right people has kept me pushing on to the next lesson and my aim is to become a proficient pilot day, night and IMC by filling the bucket of experience before I empty the bucket of luck!

I am sure there are more PPLs out there who would not admit to being nervous. I am the only one that I have met who does!

Andy

[Whirlybird]

Barney,

Interestingly, I'm just about to start a thread about PPLs and confidence.

That 150nm QXC gets to everyone! When I did it - the old CAA one - it was much shorter. A very experienced f/w instructor friend of mine thinks it's far too long, and I agree. You did well to realise you were overloaded (not always easy to recognise) and to admit it to ATC; lots of pilots wouldn't - and they should.

There was a thread on here a while back about being nervous before flying - and a lot of people admitted to it. But these are anonymous forums; less people will admit to it in a club atmosphere. At the risk of being told I'm sexist, I think this is more of a problem for men than women - but aviation is extremely male orientated. I admit when I'm nervous - and I keep getting told I have a confidence problem.:eek: I do, but quite often my nervousness is justified. It's just "not done" to admit it, which I think is wrong.

Anyway, I'll go start that other thread....

[FlyingForFun]

Interesting point about the lack of "club" activities at clubs. I guess I'm lucky in that my club really is a club, they organise regular fly-outs to airfields across the UK and Europe. Some more competitions would be nice, though, I have to admit.

I've never actually done a club fly-out, though - I've never found myself short of places to go. But I do love the fact that I can turn up at the airfield and just hang around in the bar and talk to other pilots doing the same... something which no other "club" I've ever been to seems to have offered. And it's not completely unheard of for people hanging around to offer rides, either...

FFF
--------------

[Andy_R]

My experience too is that "clubs" are not clubs at all but schools and hire companies for their aircraft.

Would it not be true that if all newly qualified PPL's, and indeed less recently qualified PPL's, were to push the owners of flying clubs to extend their clubs to indeed become clubs, a few owners may actually try to provide more group activities?

If nobody ever bothers to ask, an owner can not necessarily predict that demand.

The thought also occurs to me that we are all so busy rushing around in our busy lives, that we no longer seem to be able to justify spending that extra hour in the clubroom talking to others.... and I'm as guilty as the next on that score.

[slim_slag]

There is also a significant drop out rate in the States. Money is less of an issue - though it is all relative - so maybe cost is not so important. There are also a lot more destinations in the States with things to do, and depending on where you live, the weather can be very friendly to VFR pilots. The regulatory system is also very friendly to pilots. Yet the vast majority of people who take that trial lesson do not get to 100 hours.

People drop out after they have soloed as they have reached the goal of flying a plane on their own. Then they drop out because they realise they have to do some work to get their private, and they don't like that. Then when those that continue get their private, they get bored or scare themselves, or just cannot commit the time required to stay safe and current. As I said, most don't get to 100 hours.

IMO, the best way to keep things going is to find a friend who likes to fly with you, preferably a member of the opposite sex who you get on with, and go on trips. Even if it's for breakfast, or more interesting things like camping out to watch meteor showers. Play your cards right and flying small planes can be a good way to obtain such a partner, and if you are that way inclined, to repeat process.

I even hear there is an airport round here where college girls hang out and hitch lifts off those cute unsuspecting pilots :D :D

[Julian]

Money seems to be a big factor in drop outs, when clubs are charging £120 for a wrecked PA28 that will just about 2 people off the ground it becomes expensive. It seems shares are the way to go to find yourself a decent aircraft, you know the history of and you dont have to keep looking out of the window to check the wings are still attached.:eek:

The cost/requirements of keeping rating current i.e. ME/IR puts people off progressing beyond the PPL.

Another reason I have heard a few people say (and this probably backs up what some on here are saying about more organised activities), but getting a PPL for like getting a driving licence. Once you get it its a novelty and you fly around in circles a bit, after that in becomes like repetively driving round the M25 and you lose interest. If you aren't actually going anywhere for a reason there is no point spending the money, same as you wouldnt just take your car out - there is just no point boring holes in the sky - unless you are really bored that is :D

I have to say I have never heard anyone give up because they werent confindent with their flying abilities, I knew one guy who dropped out part way through my PPL course for this reason as he put plane into a spin which instructor recovered from I have subsequently heard that he got his confidence back though and now has his PPL.