Teaching "real" flying

[Aerobatic Flyer]

For the UK private pilot, post-PPL training seems heavily geared towards producing a certain type of pilot. Flying clubs market IMC and night ratings, "complex" aircraft conversions, and so on.

Realistically, someone learning to fly who follows this path is going to spend in the region of £10000 on getting his/her PPL and ratings. Once they've spent this money, it's going to cost several thousand pounds a year to keep IMC and night skills up to scratch.

All this is fine for those that want to fly IMC capable aircraft between reasonably well equipped airports. But I can't help thinking that there must be a lot of people who would like to learn some "grass roots" flying skills after getting a PPL, and for them the training is a lot harder to find.

Some flying clubs offer aerobatic training (or rather, AOPA aerobatic certificate training, which is part-way towards being the same thing), but aerobatics is not for everyone.

The UK has two enlightened bits of legislation which encourage cheap(ish) fun flying. The 28-day rule, which lets anyone open a private airstrip just about anywhere, and PFA-administered permits to fly for many of the aeroplanes that can use those private airstrips. But there seems to be a gulf between the skills of someone who has been through the normal flying club training, and the skills needed to enjoy cheap, fun flying. And there is no way to bridge that gap other than buying a share in an appropriate aircraft.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that a lot more people would be encouraged to fly, or to continue to fly, if we did things differently? What about allowing post-PPL training in a non-public transport certified aircraft? How about a "short strip" rating for less than the cost of an IMC? What about letting suitably experienced pilots give post-PPL instruction, without having to have passed the CPL theory exams? How about being able to rent "simple" aircraft? (It seems to work very well here in France).

In some recent threads, there seems to be a bit of condescension on the part of some people towards flying-club "spamcan" drivers; but there ought to be a structured way for the latter to get the skills that were probably once picked up automatically during basic training.

Any thoughts?

[Tinstaafl]

Oz statistics I've seen show that flying training is one of the safer parts of the GA spectrum.

Oz rules allow training to occur at any airfield - licenced or not - as long as the field meets the performance requirements for the a/c. There is no requirement for ATC / FISO / AG or fire services.

All schools require an ops manual in Oz and appopriate procedures pertaining to the use of the strips must be included.

Remove the requirement for training to be at a licenced airfield, thereby allowing schools to set up elsewhere and, more importantly, conduct normal training flights in to & out of these sorts of places.

Once such practice becomes the 'norm' then people are more likely to consider using it after their training because it will be something with which they're familiar.

It's very common in Oz for PPLs to head off to all sorts of bush strips for business & holiday. Sometimes just for a weekend, other times for weeks. One aero club I know has an annual fly-in to a country farm holiday place. Usually the a/c are booked months in advance. They even get ruled out for training for that weekend.

[Doghouse]

I agree with most of what you say. Our school offers home-made 'courses' in short-strip flying, grass field ops, converting from US flying to the UK, dead reckoning only nav, and long-distance route training. Obviously they're not recognised courses but people quite like them even though they don't get a shiny certificate at the end of it. I think the problem is a lack of imagination in developing these courses largely because GA training, microlighting and PFA people don't mix all that much in the sense of developing business at a club level.

On the other hand I don't favour the idea of developing formal courses as I suspect this would make it to easy for authorities to prevent access to farm strips, etc. without the appropriate ratings. It could even lead to having a tarmac and grass rating, for example.

Why training is limited to licensed airfields is a mystery to me. The arguments that exist simply don't seem compelling enough and I'm sure tinstaafl's tale is the right model to follow.

My preference would be for instructors to have access to farm strips, etc. (licensed or not) as part of the PPL training or simply as a 'safety pilot' after training. I'm actually in discussion with a nearby farm strip owner about this possibility for our school (obviously only for those who already have their PPL!)

Regarding the point about using non-CPL instructors, there's a thread in the instructor's forum on this and it's a contentious one! My own view is that it shouldn't be permitted.

[2Donkeys]

Aerobatic Flyer

The theory sounds good, but are you sure that the opening premise is correct? I was under the impression that of the 27000-odd current PPLs it was the minority that went on to get IMC ratings.

[FNG]

It's not just getting IMCs, it's continuing to fly only in the way which you flew during the PPL course, with the emphasis on unchallenging trips to unchallenging airfields, shuttling from VOR to VOR and so forth. It has always struck me as odd that most people who learn to drive do not continue to drive the car they learn in, or limit their journeys to the roads they learned on, whilst many who learn to fly are content to do the flying equivalent of taking the Nissan Micra around the quiet housing estate at 28 mph for most of their flying career.

It can't just be money: as has been pointed out here and elsewhere, you can, with a little imagination, obtain an interesting hour's flying for the same cost as an hour's rental of the club Cessna.

Does the phenomenon which Aerobatic Flyer observes originate, at least partly, in the fact many of the average PPL's instructors themselves know of no other type of flying than that which they teach and demonstrate? This is not a gratuitous dig at hour building instructors: they have understandable career aspirations, but there appears to be something in the culture of the "typical" flying school which results in things such as strip-flying seeming to be strange and difficult. It may be true also that there can appear to be a certain exclusive CAMRA-beardiness associated with certain aspects of grass roots, straw in teeth, wind in hair flying which might put some people off.

Hairyplane (I think it was Hairyplane) [edit: nope, it was Shaggy Sheep Driver, see below] commented in a thread a while back that he had the good fortune to be taught to fly by ex WW2 free spirits. Not many of those guys have held onto their instructor ratings (although some of them can still fly your trousers off: as I found out when I handed over control to an 80 year old Spitfiire guy during last year's Project Propeller), but they have their successors dotted around. It's such a pity that the job of flying instructor is so undervalued and poorly rewarded, so that so many who do it are merely en route to somewhere else, and may have neither the time nor the inclination to open up for their students the various facets of recreational flying.

[poetpilot]

I think the PFA facilitate coaching in skills beyond the PPL - e.g. tailwheel, strip sense, exploring the flight envelope etc.... - but I have a feeling this applies to people who own or part-own their own aircraft.

It's worth checking it out on their site (must admit I havent had the time to do that).

A guy I shared a Jodel with a few years back did it - he reckoned it really sharpened his skills and awareness up.

www.pfa.org.uk

[Flyin'Dutch']

AF

I think you are right in your assumption that it is more easy to add an IMC/Night rating to your licence. But there are places Clacton which cater for tailwheel and stripflying. Other places are around but you will need to do a bit of research to find them.

May be the reason why this divide is there is because stripflying is a bit more challenging than flying a 152/172/PA28 and most people's budgets are limiting them in time available to spend flying.

I further think that the vast majority of strip machines are on a Permit or Private C of A rather than Public so that training is not possible even if instructors where that way inclined.

Training in the form of Circuits and bumps is not allowed at strips by the ANO, and would probably p$ss of the neighbours anyway, insurance companies are not keen on stripflying either.

See there a multitude of reasons why stripflying is less 'popular' than IMC/Night.

However that does not stop individuals to seek out that part of the flying spectrum and getting into a group/aircraft strip and enjoy themselves. It just takes a bit more effort and homework than pitching up at the local school.

FWIW

FD

PS: Poetpilot; I tried to contact them by emailing twice and leaving an answerphone message once and after 2,5 years still waiting for a reply - and yes, I am a PFA member.

[rustle]

Or is it more like the 'chicken-and-egg' scenario?

Or maybe supply and demand?

When someone wants to gain a PPL they will seek out a club/school that meets that requirement and learn.

If/when they decide to do additional training they will (should) do the same thing - club loyalty etc only last if the requirements are met...

No-one, except Mr Benevolent on Benevolence-day, is going to set up a flying school on the off-chance that someone might pop in who wants to do something different...

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

FNG said:

Hairyplane (I think it was Hairyplane) commented in a thread a while back that he had the good fortune to be taught to fly by ex WW2 free spirits.

T'was me, actually. I think most of what you say is true, and the reason is that most instructors these days are trainee airline pilots.

Probably the only thing that would change that would be to make it easier for 'fun flyers' (ie non-career pilots) to become instructors.

SSD

[Flash0710]

Don't panic just about to start atps! do i wanna fly a big bus nah!

We should fly for the pleasure not the associated image

Poss touching on a new topic but tongue being bitten for now

[FNG]

Sorry for the incorrect attribution Shaggy

[FlyingForFun]

There are such places around, you just need to look for them. The Tiger Club, at Headcorn, will rent you a Rollason Turbulent for £40/hour, for example (something which I hope to have a go at either later this year, or more likely next year).

We all know that PFA aircraft are cheaper to run than CofA aircraft, but I doubt that allowing schools to rent PFA aircraft to post-PPL hirers would actually make very much difference. Much of the price difference comes from the fact that the owners of PFA aircraft are able to do their own maintenance. A school would not be able to take advantage of this - they would still need to pay someone to do their maintenance.

The PFA coaching scheme is, from the limited interactions I've had with it, excellent - but it's only open to owners of PFA aircraft unfortunately. But I do believe that grass-roots flying is available to anyone who's recently (or not-so-recently) got their PPL. If you have to look a little further to find it, then I think that can only come down to supply and demand.

FFF
----------------

[Genghis the Engineer]

Apart from the PFA coaching scheme (which is certainly a good thing, but you can only do in your own aeroplane) most clubs have instructors with suitable aeroplanes happy to undertake interesting training. It is only training for a license that has to be done at a licensed airfield, nothing to stop an instructor taking you off to an unlicensed airfield for some grass-strip training, for example.

Also, if you want to expand your horizons go and do some gliding, a microlight conversion, etc. Shortly you'll be able to hire a microlight as well according to the BMAA.

I'd venture that the problem really is the relatively narrow outlook often put out by schools whose bread and butter is basic PPL training, rather than what is available to the average pilot.

G

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Doghouse

I don't favour the idea of developing formal courses as I suspect this would make it to easy for authorities to prevent access to farm strips, etc.
You're probably right. A rating would be the wrong way to go, but structured training is needed, I think. Whether that training needs to be given by a CPL is a different debate, but personally I think that it is not necessary. Most of the instructors from whom I have learnt this type of flying have never sat the CPL theory exams - they have restricted CPLs based on their previous PPL instructor status. Conversely, many (but certainly not all) of the younger CPL / fATPL holders don't have the experience or inclination to give this kind of training.

poetpilot

I think the PFA facilitate coaching in skills beyond the PPL - e.g. tailwheel, strip sense, exploring the flight envelope etc.... - but I have a feeling this applies to people who own or part-own their own aircraft.
Wouldn't it be good if that sort of coaching was available without having to buy the aircraft first? In most parts of the UK there are almost no opportunities for new PPL holders to experience "grass roots" flying.

When I had a new PPL I would have jumped at the chance to fly an interesting aircraft with an experienced pilot / coach. The only "interesting" flying that was readily available was aerobatics. That suited me fine, but lots of people don't like aeros and the options for them were a bit limited. I know that a lot of people I knew then either don't fly any more, or are still flying between the airfields they visited during their cross-country training.

FFF

Yes, there are places like the Tiger Club if you look for them. But you have to look pretty hard, and there aren't many (any?) other clubs like it.

You're right about it being a question of supply and demand. I think the demand for simple fun flying is there, as shown by the increasing popularity of microlighting. I think that same demand would be there among flying club members, if more of them were able to see and experience different types of flying.

[FNG]

I was interested to see from the latest "Pilot" that the flying club/school at Sherburn in Elmet (which looks well worth a visit) operates a Cap 10 and an aerobatic Robin because the CFI is an aeros fan. The culture of a club is bound to be dictated by the interests of its owners/senior staff. It seems a shame to me that so few of the clubs around London emphasise much other than what you might term bog-standard PPL-ing. I suppose that they can do OK on a steady stream of trial lessons, PPL courses, and club-hire of the training aircraft, and so feel no need to branch out in the absence of someone in the management having a particular interest in some other type of flying.

[ModernDinosaur]

It seems a shame to me that so few of the clubs around London emphasise much other than what you might term bog-standard PPL-ing.

In my (admitedly limited) experience, I have to say that I think this is a little unfair. The small, friendly club which taught me to fly also runs tailwheel, IMC, night and twin courses without the "CPL emphasis" you find at some of the larger multi-field organisations - there has even been one PPL/IR in the recent past. There are also semi-regular club fly-outs, often cross-channel.

The one course that isn't offered which I would personally like - an aerobatics course. That said, I can understand this as the airfield is under the London TMA and learning aeros under 2500' can't really be recommended!

I know that 'my' club is a good one, and that there are some very poor clubs around, but I'm sure there are other clubs around London which are interested in more than "bog-standard PPL-ing" - it all depends on how far you look. If you think it is a shame that 'your' club doesn't offer the range of training you want to see, talk it over with the CFI and/or owner. If they won't change, there are others that will be happy to receive your custom.

Cheers,

MD.

[High Wing Drifter]

What about letting suitably experienced pilots give post-PPL instruction

You can do an FI(R) rating on a PPL, you just cannot be paid for it.

http://www.flightexaminers.com/FI(R).htm

Also, if I am not mistaken, the RAF had or have a scheme where expereiced PPLers would take would be RAF pilots up for introductory/initial training (or something).

[FNG]

MD, I said "few", not "none". If you are at Denham and want to do some aeros, Waltham (choice of Avia Special, Alan Cassidy, and London Aerobatic Company) or Wycombe (BAFC Chipmunk)would be your best bets. If at Fairoaks, Waltham again. If at Redhill, I suppose that Headcorn is the best option. I'm fortunate enough to be in an aerobatic taildragger group, so I don't exert any consumer pressure on my flying club. My observation is that there may be untapped demand for a variety of types of recreational flying, but that this is not picked up because many of the clubs can get by meeting the presumably more widespread demand for trial lessons etc, and because relatively few of the instructors appear to be particularly interested in significantly varying the menu.