Eurocontrol/Nats

[weselfluren]

I'm sure this is a question many potential applicants would like to know, but what are the main differences in time between applications to Eurocontrol and to Nats. Many postings and replies talk of extreme delays with Nats, is this the case with Eurocontrol? If not, is there a reason not to go down the European path to a career in ATC???:confused: :confused:

[Radar]

weselfluren,

Can't speak for NATS but Eurocontrol (from what I know) have a fairly streamlined procedure. Once you've been called for interview, it'sa matter of months before the pocedure runs its course, hopefully culminating in selection. To the best of my knowledge, the selection takes place twice a year .... it has been many years since I faced that particular hurdle, so that data may be out of date !
As far as reasons for or against the continental route, well, those answers have pretty much got to come from yourself. While it's not that far from home, it is radically different in many (perhaps critical) respects. Only you can be the judge of how much of an obstacle those differences are. Suffice it to say, there are plenty of us 'Islanders' over here who are pretty happy with our lot ! Since RYR are going to start STN - MST daily flights in a couple of months, if you're interested, why not drop over and check the place out?

[niknak]

The application process aside, it really depends on whether you want to sit in a control tower and look at aeroplanes while you control them, or sit in an area control centre and never see the aeroplanes you're talking to.
Eurocontrol is solely area work, whereas at least with NATS, there is the possibility of working at an airfield (although only a few from each course get this option - the majority do go on to do area control work).
Eurocontrol are a very good employer, and the benefits provided are also very good.
Looking at some posts you may think that NATS are an awful company to work for - well, they aren't perfect, but they're a damn sight better than some I could name!

[weselfluren]

Radar & Niknak - Thanks for the replies! However, it still doesn't put the mind to rest regarding the subject of start dates being given/held - see july 03 to become jan 04 course postings (especially the last "official" reply)!!!!

If the difference between Nats and Eurocontrol isn't that great and Area control is what I'd like to do, then surely applying to both shows my desire to become an ATCO? (Eurocontrol start dates seem a little more consistent at the moment, and not subject to adverse change as with Nats). Does anyone know if Nats recruitment would know if you applied to Eurocontrol? Would that be held against you (I assume so, as they are "competitors") when the 2nd interview & final selection comes around?

[bids]

In my case it was 6 months between sending off my initial application and sitting in the classroom at IANS luxembourg. From what i read on these boards thats a lot quicker than NATS. But its all a question of dates really because i think they do selections every couple of months; but they only have 2 courses a year...i suppose it just depends where your interview falls in the scheme of things and if they've filled up the next course.

i can remember being asked in the interview if i had applied to NATS, which i hadn't, but i've heard of people failing the NATS selection and still getting accepted into eurocontrol....errr... i've also heard of people failing eurocontrol selection after failing NATS.

Good luck!

[WX Man]

From what I hear I think you'll find Eurocontrol much faster than NATS. Between reading the ad and sitting in Lux, for me it was 5 months. And actually the longest period of waiting for me was probably attributable to the Christmas break.

However I suppose it depends when you apply relative to when the next course startes. AB36 will start in July (I think), you're probably not too late to get an application in for that.

Remember that you need to submit a sight test certificate with your application, so you might want to book an appointment sooner rather than later.

[A I]

Has anybody out there got any stats referring to the success rate between recruitment and final validation for both Eurocontrol and NATS.

In the bad old days in NATS, I believe that the success rate was very high (early seventies about 80%, I think) and this was without recoursing except in extraordinary circumstances.

It would be very interesting to compare. I have a sneaky feeling that the broad experience given by the old "cadetship" produced a better product.

I shall now stand back and await the flack. :D :D :D

[Dances with Boffins]

A I-
A very hard comparison to make, because although similar, there are some striking differences between NATS and Eurocontrol. Here goes anyway...
Overall, NATS will have the slightly better validation rate, due to Airports controllers all validating SOMEWHERE. Eurocontrol only trains Area Controllers for Maastricht, so fail there, and you are history. However, at the moment, Eurocontrol has the higher success when compared to NATS Area Controller training/validation.
Aha! You all cry. But wait, there is more. Eurocontrol only trains about half the number of Area ATCOs per year that NATS do. What isn't shown is how many applicants are rejected to get this success rate. If Eurocontrol are rejecting a higher proportion odf applicants to fill this smaller requirement, it is still possible that NATS Area Training gets better results. These figures are unknown. NATS is also re-building it's entire Area Radar Course, from the ground up, so expect even better results in the future.

Comparing current ATC teaching to the old Cadetship is a bit unrealistic too. While the Cadetship did give a much broader ATC knowledge, a lot of it merely occluded the stuff that baby ATCOs needed to know. More modern methods, whilst leaving some of the peripheral knowledge to be aquired later if needed, do give much more focused training in the area of expertise that the trainee will face for their first validation. Different yes, but strangely the route that Eurocontrol has followed, and the rest of Europe is also adopting.

The product is definitely different now, but the job has changed beyond all recognition too. The new breed of ATCO is better equipped for the modern job than his/her predecessor, but may miss out on some background knowledge which would make their ability appear more 'rounded'.

What I miss is a decent level of mental arithmetic. Can't blame NATS for that though.:cool:

[63000 Triple Zilch]

The success rates for students at LACC is difficult to determine as it is too soon and there have not yet been any who have gone through the complete Swanwick training system. However early indications are that it is, at the moment broadly comparable to LATCC. However with the improved SVC's and training methods coupled with the OJTI's significant motivation it may well improve. For the record the success rate for students at LATCC AC in the last 3 years ranged between 68% & 53% of students who had successfully completed the college course. The failure rate at the college was around 10%. This incidentally was far better than the success rate at LATCC of experienced controllers coming from other units which was below 50%. Hope that answers the queries!!

[kilojuliet]

I have no official figures for you but my estimate for Eurocontrol would be around the 60% mark, quite similar to NATS.

However, any controller will tell you that the actual figures vary wildly from course to course. It then becomes difficult to come up with an average because you need a larger sample to make the figure accurate. This can never happen because training courses are reviewed, adapted and changed on a regular basis.

It all comes down to the selection pool you were taken from and a little bit of luck.

Whichever you choose it'll be a great life and there's always the possibility of moving around the world to find somewhere you like!

[Riddster]

As this post was here I thought I would ask my own question about this topic.
I am currently in the US for 5 more weeks on a gap year. If I apply to NATS (who I applied to last year and failed the tests) and Eurocontrol now, would I get called in the next few weeks, or would I be safe, until I got back to the UK?

Thanks

Chris

[Point Seven]

Riddster

If you really want to do it, put your application in. They'll never get you to attend the tests in five weeks, Jeez it'll take them that long to open the envelope. You'll be safe my friend, if i'm wrong then give them a call and let them know, we're getting short of quality applicants so they'll give you another chance just in case youre The One!! Good luck;)

[WX Man]

I wouldn't apply to Eurocontrol now for 2 reasons: 1) you need the sight test thing, and in the US that'll be more expensive I should think; and 2) it won't take Eurocontrol 5 weeks to open the envelope.... there were 9 days between me putting the evelope in the post and sitting the tests in Maastricht!

[Riddster]

Thanks very much for that, I did by the way get the eye sight test done in the UK and have it with me. But as they are more efficent than NATS I will wait.

Thanks again

Chris

[AlphaSierra]

Hi all,

Thought I would dredge up this post as I've found it useful. I have some questions to add:

What is the working environment like for Eurocontrol? Is it similar to what you might see at Swanwick? I know some basic Deutsch and some extremely (And I mean a few weeks into GCSE!) basic French. Is it important to know other languages in this game? If I only knew English, could I a) be selected b) get on comfortably with the job?



All thoughts appreciated.

Andy - About to post application form!

[Moira]

As far as the languages are concerned: absolutely no problem. Standard working language is English, you've got people from all over Europe working at the centre, and many of them only know their own language and English.

Dunno what to advise you about mentioning your failure for NATS testing... I'd simply put it in, but then again, I am an honest girl too. ;) Anybody experience with getting admitted to Eurocontrol after failing the NATS tests?

[fourthreethree]

Same as Moira said....most English people at Eurocontrol start out over here speaking only English. As far as work goes you will have absolutely no problem at all with that. On a social level I have found it incredibly useful learning Dutch, although many expats don't take that step for a long time, not the best race at learning a foreign language are we? :hmm:

About the NATS thing, that shouldn't be a problem either, the two companies have different procedures and different criteria in the selection process. Plenty of people have failed NATS selection but been accepted here, and vice versa. If you don't mention it, and it comes to their attention that you are hiding it they are bound to ask why? Honesty every time. Also bear in mind that people involved in the selection procedure also peruse these forums....English guy from Southampton...called Andy...how many forms do you think they will recieve in the coming weeks?? :}

Good luck with it mate, hope to see you in the future:ok:

[Quokka]

Given that Australian ATC's aren't included in the European ATC Harmonisation project... would we have to apply for NATS/Eurocontrol under the same conditions as Ab-Initio applicants? Or, are some overseas applicants processed separate to the Ab-Initio applicants? Is there a Conversion Course for training experienced ATC from other countries outside of the UK/European Union? Would having a European Union Passport (by birth) be an advantage? Are there age restrictions?

[CAP670]

Quokka:

Can't speak for Eurocontrol, but as regards the UK (not just NATS):

1. Yes - but having undertaken an Assessment for Previous Competence (APC) you could be eligble for an up to 50% UK ATC course reduction
2. Nope! No conversion course as such; you'd have to complete whatever elements in the licence and rating courses are deemed appropriate, following your APC.
3. No advantage.
4. No licencing upper age limitations (assuming that you're aged over 20!). But yes, differing upper age limitations for employers, including NATS. However, after 2006 when the European Directive on Age Discrimination becomes effective, the arbitrary setting of upper age limits will become illegal in all EU states and so it'll be down to (i) maintaining competency and (ii) maintaining the required medical category.

Suggest you:

1. Go to Eurocontrol's website and search for ESARR5 - the defining document.

2. Go the the UK CAA's website and search for CAP744 - the UK ATC licencing requirements, subsuming ESARR5.

:ok:

[The Euronator]

Quokka

With regards to Eurocontrol, you have to have a passport from one of the Eurocontrol member states which is roughly the EU plus some more countries.

There was Conversion Courses for Eurocontrol but none are being offered at the moment, and policy has changed towards training of new abinitio controllers. If you want to join Eurocontrol going through the abinitio avenue would be your only option and would be quicker than waiting for Conversion Courses to be advertised. The Abinitio intake is open and courses commence roughly every 6 months. There is an upper age for Abinitio recruitment which is 25.

[Quokka]

Thanks!! I'm above the age for Eurocontrol (until the age restrictions are lifted), but UK is sounding good.

Cheers,

:ok: