Of course I can land in your front garden

[Hairyplane]

A bit of protracted, friendly banter yesterday culminated in a STOL demonstration by a good mate of mine.

He decided to pay me a visit and landed his Auster in my front garden. Nicely done - I never got around to trying it in the Messenger (never had the bottle or the skills more like...)

We are now hoping for a good frost as opposed to the 2 months that it will probably take to dry out sufficiently for him to get it out again!

I reckon my place will be a major turning point now - I can just imagine the double-takes from the local club fliers. How the @u@k did that get there??

Er - no - don't try to extract the details from me - I would only confess under torture or 'the influence'.

We need more characters like this in aviation - hurrah!

HP

[Kermit 180]

Nothing quite like a 'character' such as your pal to boost the insurance premiums for the rest of us who abide by the rules and live within sensible limits. Just how large is your front garden?

Kermie :rolleyes:

[Kingy]

Kermit,

In the UK there is NO rule against landing in your own front gardan. The 28 day rule allows any use of land so long as it's no more than 28 days in any one year.

I regularly 'drop in' to see my dad by landing in his 200m 1in7 paddock - whats wrong with that..?

As for insurance premiums you are WRONG - The spam can club boys running off the end of long grass 'strips' in PA28's are far more likely to cause insurance hikes than seasoned strip flyers... Ask yourself one question - who is likely to carry out a sucessful forced landing - a tailwheel strip flyer or a club PA28/152 driver?

I know who my money would be on!

Kingy

[Sultan Ismail]

I am with Kermit on this one, read the first line of the original post

“A bit of protracted, friendly banter yesterday culminated in a STOL demonstration by a good mate of mine”

that translates to

“I bet I can land in your front garden

I bet you can’t

I bet I can, watch this……”

Fortunately it didn’t make it into the newspapers.

And just how, or rather when, does he intend to fly it out, something to do with frost.

Sounds like a poorly planned flight, the kind that leads to newspaper headlines and insurance premium loadings.


Another point raised

“who is likely to carry out a sucessful forced landing - a tailwheel strip flyer or a club PA28/152 driver? “

My money is on the spamcan driver training under the watchful eye of his instructor, and the aircraft owner who will insist that said spancan driver remains current under the watchful eye of his instructor.




Dives for (insurance) cover…..


Sultan Ismail

[FNG]

Hairyplane described the event in a deliberately jocular manner, but this doesn't mean that his friend didn't think carefully about making the landing or act prudently in executing it. I can't see any reason to assume that it was not done carefully and well. On this basis, I say hurrah also.

Where is this paragon of rented spamcannical virtue to whom the previous post refers? Is he the same bloke who gripes endlessly about having to fly with an instructor for (gasp!) a whole hour every (shocker!) two years? Actually, I've noticed that this griping thankfully seems to have died out, here at least: does it still go on in the magazines or other fora?

[SteveR]

Cobblers.

We've seen lots of postings from 'mainstream' trained PPLs wondering what it's like to land on licenced grass airfields. There are lots of people out there who haven't felt what it's like and who's closest experience of a landing off tarmac is when their instructor breaks off a PFL with the immortal words "I think we'd have walked away from that one".

These (IMHO) are the sorts of people who freak out when the donk stops and they can't see 2 miles of tarmac in front of them.

So what if the friendly banter turned into a friendly bet? That can be the best sort of banter and definitely the best sort of bet. Provided the banter wasn't fuelled by any recreational drugs to affect risk assessment I can't see a problem with it. It was his skin, and his Auster.

Our insurance premiums are hiked up by nosewheel collapses and religious nuts topping themselves, not by people (whispers it) having fun .

Sheesh


Steve R

[englishal]

I think it is a great story, brings us back to the 'golden' days of Aviation. This is how private flying should be, just get in the machine for a jolly jaunt across the country, pick a field to land in for lunch, maybe drop down to 300' above the ground for a bit of sight-seeing, and when you finally reach you destination you dive bomb your friends on the ground for a low fly past....If you bend your machine, you fix it yourself.........ah well, back to the rules and regs.....

EA:D

[BlueRobin]

How big is HPs front garden? Just guessing...but I bet it depends, especially if you happen to live on a FARM! :D

Oh mind the old radio mast if you're anywhere nearby. ;)

[Rod1]

I think some of us are being a little harsh given the information we have. We do not know how long the area was. We do not know if the Auster pilot had walked the strip, if he was a friend, he may have been considering this for some years.

Why jump to the worst possible conclusion? He did not bend it, and he may have been well inside his capabilities. I prefer to think he had some fun, and assume it was properly done until evidence emerges it was not. If everyone who does something out of the ordinary is shot down the moment they post we will have a very boring forum.

One last point, I am building a Tri gear, which will give most Austers a hard time on the STOL front. Short field is not just the preserve of vintage taildraggers, things have moved on.

Rod

[FNG]

I was going to say what Rod said (except for the bit about building some crate or other), but he said it first. Why rush to condemn without knowing the details? Austers and the like are well adapted for landing on short and rough areas. I have a friend in the country whose "front garden" could certainly accomodate a STOL type. Perhaps hairyplane's garden is similar.

[Aussie Andy]

Why rush to condemn without knowing the details? Maybe because some peoples lives lack sufficient drama, so they drum it up!?

Just stirring ;) I thought it was a great yarn myself!

Andy

[Hairyplane]

Well well well!

I'll let this thread run for a bit and then let you have more detail. I'd let you have it now but I am in a rush!

Applause already though for those who correctly concluded that my visitor was doing nothing wrong and nothing illegal.


HP

[snchater]

My spamcan C.182 will give Austers & Maules a run for their money in short field ops!!

[BlueRobin]

I'll have to pop down t'road to just see...

What's that? A 12-bore? "Gerrof moi land!" ;)

[Flash0710]

I concour with HP

Whats the point in getting a licence and just going to le 2k every weekend

Get out and do something wit ya PPL

Lets throw your mate a party!


" Stand back light your pipe and admire your handy work!!!! "

[LowNSlow]

I'm sure HP's pal thought it through first. Let's face it, any flat bit of grass 200m long with no serious obstructions is relatively easy for an Auster with a pilot current on short strip operations. If there's a good breeze down the strip you can shorten this significantly.

Good on the Auster bloke, it's what they were designed for. :D

Where is this garden of yours HP ;)

[Aerobatic Flyer]

No room in aviation for show-offs, but there should be plenty of room for people to enjoy themselves.

True - we don't know the details. But....:

Hairyplane's garden can't be all that small (compared to mine at least..... )
An Auster will land safely in a very small field. A friend of mine used to fly Austers in the Army. If I believe even a fraction of the stories that he tells me, an Auster will land in an exceptionally short field!
Landing safely in a short field really isn't a big deal if you've practised a bit. I know a lot of pilots who recently went and landed at a new "airfield" that is 170m long, with a curved final approach and no possibility of going around. None of them had been there before. None of them had any trouble, and most have been back several times since. They're all much more skilled than me - but if you have the ability the experience and are in current practice, it can be done quite safely.

[Rod1]

If I remember correctly, Mussolini would have approved…

Rod

[Flyin'Dutch']

Way to go!

I just wished my garden was big enough to fly anything but an eggbeater in and out off.

:(

I'd love to have a house with a strip. Have a BBQ every weekend so that my mates could pitch up in their mounts stay the night and fly off again after a good cooked breakfast.

In Holland you can not even fly into your own field! No matter what the size!

:eek:

Enjoy!

FD

[mutt]

As an ex-skydive pilot you would be surprised at the size of the fields which we landed spam-cans in........
Dont judge this guy until you know the length of the field and his experience level........

Mutt

[QDMQDMQDM]

Flying is supposed to be FUN. You can be playful and enjoy stuff without being a reckless hooligan.

One reason I left flying for 12 years was everyone was so bloody po-faced and pompous about it. Now, flying from farm strips I see a completely different side of aviation and a group of pilots in mud-spattered wellies whose airmanship might bend the odd idiotic rule here or there, but is far higher in standard than most others.

QDM

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

Hey Hairyplane!

Looks like you got your own farm strip in the end!;) Any chance of that KingAir using it:) :hmm: :suspect:

:ok:

[Ailorron]

Ah guys know this front garden very well as I ,ve walked it with a view to landing there myself and partaking of Hp,s ever present hospitality.I estimate it to be over 300 metres with clear approaches and a good surface!! so no problem for an auster!!.Pity the surface was much wetter than the surface of the strip very nearby from which this very experienced pilot had departed.What a lovely front garden in open country HP can sit in his lounge and fly his radio controlled model aeroplanes from this field tough old life eh HP!!.

[Flash0710]

so..........

Why is'nt there there an air park in the uk????

There is an obvious demand lets do it...!



Goggles on chocks away last one backs a homo....!

[Dusty_B]

Shouldn't that be FIRST one back is a Homo??

A nice airpark in the south west please.
So I can go surfing when it isn't good enough to fly :o)

The perfect airfield?
Eggesford, with a Tracey Island style mechanical tarmac runway that would appear only when the ground was too wet...
Of course, then we'd need to buy Chivenor and St Mawgan so that we could fly to the beach. Sod it. We'll just buy a beach and land on that :)

[Rod1]

Hairyplane,

Come on, spill the beans. I assume you are going to give us a report on what happened and then marks out of 10 for the accuracy of the assumptions. Is there a prize. :cool:

[surely not]

Hairyplane are you a fisherman? The way you dangled the bait and let the pompous leap in was superb.

Perhaps they are all journalists, they sure didn't want to assess the facts, they might have got in the way of a sensational reaction!

[ajsh]

I wasn’t going to – but what the heck….

I took up flying some 5 years ago and have, in the main, thoroughly enjoyed the experience (apart from an engine failure after take off in a PA38!!). What really puts me off is those ill informed, pompous and sanctimonious people who have posted negative responses to this thread. People making knee jerk judgements about safety and insurance issues while, I am sure, they secretly wish they had the skill, opportunity and friends with big enough gardens to do the same.

Club houses up and down the country are full of these people who have nothing better to do than complain about everything and everyone. Flying for me is fun, a hobby and something I have a passion for and I shall continue to enjoy it despite those who believe is should not be challenging too.

Our community is under threat from enough people from the outside without those on the inside adding a spurious and self-indulgent voice.

There, I’ve said my bit…..

[Oscar Duece]

Spot on ajsh

I have been flying for about 5 years now. Mainly AA5's and Pa28's with a bit of aweful katana's thrown in. All at about £ 100 an hour. Business commitments meant a rather lean period this last 12/18 months with only an hour or two. So went looking for something different / fun whcich could not be found at Southamtpon at said £ 100 ph.
Had a flight in a citabria and an auster and loved it. Brought back the smile I'd lost since really training on a C150. Started looking at costs, heard about the pfa and realised you can have fun and for less than £ 100 ph. So just bought an Auster project and looking forward to fun frugal flying in a year / 18 months.
But when said friends at flying club heard and I would not be renewing £ 80 club fee. I was treated like John Prescott. How dare I go against the grain of flying at less than £ 100 pa form a lovely tarmac haven and a heated office. They wanted me out the door before I spread any infection. Money grabbing pompus twits.

To summary. grass roots / grass strip flying is the biggest smile factor out there. It's even kinder to your pocket. I now have only pitty for the rude, weekend, 2 miles of tarmac, spam can, le 2k drivers. That frequent such clubs.....

Note: Austers rule OK...

[Rod1]

OK, now for the numbers.

By my reckoning there are three negative posters;

Kermit 180, Sultan Ismail, Go-Around

Five neutral posters, and 15 positive posters.

My scepticism of human nature was unfounded, keep it up guys!

Rod

[FlyingForFun]

Rod, I think you've under-estimated the number of negative posters. For example, I would count the statement "I now have only pitty for the rude, weekend, 2 miles of tarmac, spam can, le 2k drivers" as extremely negative :(

I've said this many times, and I still stick by it. One of the greatest thing about flying is the wide range of activities it encompasses. That includes everything from pottering around the circuit in a PA28, to aerobatics, to ballooning or gliding, to farm-strip flying, to serious IFR cross-countries to get to a business meeting, and probably a whole load of other stuff that doesn't immediately spring to mind. Personally, I will make time for anyone, especially if they are involved in aviation, but only if they will make time for me, and not "pity" me if I choose to enjoy my weekends by flying to 2 miles of tarmac at Le Touquet.

FFF
--------------

[Oscar Duece]

I wasn't having a dig at anyone FFF. I like you treat all with respect if I am given it.

I was shell shocked at the way I was treated for 'crossing the line' and flying more basic aircraft at a cheaper rate. It was like I'd just slept with their wives. I was an outcast. How can this be in the general interests of GA.

[Circuit Basher]

Oscar Deuce - find it difficult to comment on your last post, as I haven't met the wives concerned! ;)

In general, however, I'm all for the variety of flying that GA offers. Sometimes in bad wx (when do we get anything else?!), it's nice to have 2 miles of runway and all the nav aids you can poke a big stick at, a friendly scope dope to talk to ;) and a reasonable certainty that the runway at your destination won't be waterlogged. On a nice day, when you haven't got a million and one things to contend with (and your pax is up for a laugh!), then strip flying is great fun!

If you really want different, then try sticking the fan on top, at the back, or even going without one altogether, if you wish!

Vie la difference as Wilbur Wright used to say! ;)

[Hairyplane]

I invite everybody to read Surely Not's post - bang on the nail!

I wonder if any of the sad people who frantically contributed on page 1 - now waddling around with their pants down around their ankles looking really silly for posting such puerile drivel - have finalised their offical report on the Shuttle tragedy and sent it off to NASA for their final edit and publication?.

The Private Forum - in my view - is starting to get boring, principally because it seems to attract too many dull, boring f@rties with nothing of interest to say and yet who are quick to criticise and quite content to base their stupid arguments on assumption and value jugements.

Can I appeal to you interesting guys who have responded positively and intelligently to my thread to come up with some topics for lively debate? Hurrah for guys like you!

It is you guys that will keep this forum alive. I have to say, I don't visit it often these days - you'll find me mainly on the History and Nostalgia Forum.

For the record - The Auster pilot is highly skilled, current and operates his aircraft in the way it was intended. It isn't 'the 4x4 shopping car' that never goes off road.

I think that this event was highly amusing and reflects a spirit that regrettably seems to be dying off (or in the case of our dreary page 1 posters - has already turned its toes up.)

HP

[Rod1]

Hairyplane

Nice one!

I notice you are Midlands based. So am I, so if you fancy a pint some time, let me know.

Rod

[Rattus]

Hi Rod1
When are you going to get your neighbour to chop down those apple trees and fill in the pond?
I reckon we could get in and out of there with a bit of practise:E
Rattus

[WorkingHard]

Just a question for those who denegrated. When did YOU last have your STOL abilities actually maesured on the runway. ry it, it may surprise you. After measuring compare the the POH. If you like you can follow me in and out of some very short strips. I make sure that the approach and departure lanes are as clear as can be but regularly fly a "spam can" into <300m. If it is legal and does not upset the local residents then it should be encouraged.

[The Inspector]

Hi Hairyplane.

Thought I'd chip in with my 20 lira worth (about £0.0000000001p in proper money)

I agree with you about how stuffy and self-righteous this forum has become. There were lots of negative comments on the breakfast patrol thread recently, obviously from those who have never tried it. Same thing is happening here.. Probably the same pilots who I regularly witness landing over halfway into a 900m grass strip, purely because they are used to landing at 1500 metres of tarmac......Wait till they have to land in a short field for real, with no engine! You only get one chance....

So come on guys and gals, live and let live, and if people want to try oddball things (not that landing an Auster in a garden is oddball), let 'em do it without receiving a slagging!

Better not tell 'em about my plans to fly an aeroplane underwater!:eek:

[Sultan Ismail]

The Empire Strikes Back

This has indeed been an interesting thread, and I am now even more convinced with my original comments.

By the way, did you really read them?

How do you land an aircraft, as the result of a dare, a statement still not yet refuted by the original poster, and then have to wonder how to get it out.

Will the frost harden the ground or must it be the coming of spring and the ground dries naturally?

But lets move on, we are not going to agree on the above question.

Where have I shown I am not a fun loving pilot with the ability to land an aircraft in less than 200 metres, and a spamcan at that.


Let me comment on some of the interesting posts I have read these last 3 pages.

First of all I have maintained a PPL for more than 33 years, flown Cessnas from 152 upto 182TR (turbocharged retractable Skylane), Pipers PA28-140 through -161, -181, Arrows,-235 and PA32RT-300T (turbocharged retractable Cherokee 6 with a T-tail), and it was, and is fun all the way.

I practice STOL abilities at EVERY takeoff and landing, as most of my destinations are islands in the Malacca Straits and South China Sea.

Approaches to these strips are always over water and invariably involve heading changes right upto short finals, when the strip finally comes into view.

Planning is essential for this type of flying, through the approach to touchdown for there is rarely an overshoot available, you have to be committed and get it right.


A poster suggested that secretly I wish I "had the skill, opportunity and friends with big enough gardens to do the same"
is he suggesting envy?

For the record, my front garden is 299 metres long and 76 metres wide, and would handle all those Austers and spamcans, however the neighbours will get p*ss*d off, so we won't be trying.

Being long in the tooth and a bit of an old f@rt I haven't yet managed how to post a pic, but I'll try and do one of those yahoo photopage thingies and post it here.


I should have mentioned that the house is in Johannesburg, and I only get back every 6 to 8 weeks for a long weekend, its just a few minutes from Grand Central.

Otherwise I work and play in KL, flying around the Petronas Twin Towers on my way to an island paradise, well someones got to do it.

And our weather is always 32 degrees C .

Flying is for fun, and it will be fun if you plan to keep it that way

Lets go fly


Sultan Ismail

[Hairyplane]

Hi Sultan,

Thanks for your interesting post - thats the sort of thing we want to read. Tell us more about your flying. It will fit well into this 'STOL' thread.

You have to agree that your initial post was totally negative and based on assumptions and value judgement .

A lively debate in consideration of the facts is one thing but jumping in to condemn is something quite different.

This is a classic illustration of what has been going wrong with the Private Pilots Forum.

A new PPL posts an innocent question. Does he get a helpful response? No - just some tw@t questioning the standards of his initial training. Other holier than thou tw@ts then jump aboard and steer the thread in a direction that the originator didn't want. Net result? 'I can't be bothered to read this drivel. I can't be bothered to post a reply'.

So Sultan, pull your pants up, you are forgiven - but only if you tell us more! I for one am very interested in what you are doing out there.

HP

:ok:

[Flash0710]

HP

Sing it to them Brother!!!!!!:D :D :D :D :D :O

[Hairyplane]

Breathe a sigh of relief about your insurance premiums - the Auster went this morning.

The sight and sound of the aircraft climbing away at 7.00am from a frozen field on a crisp beautiful still morning was a joy to behold - and at a time when you would struggle to hire a club machine.

A correct risk assessment by the pilot, no drama, no nuisance.

9-5 club flying might be fun for you but there are broader horizons out there if only you were to taste the spirit of adventure rather than just read about it and sniff.

Anybody out there done any mountain flying on skis? I bet thats fun. Bush flying too. There are plenty of people around the world who rely on their stick and rudder skills for a living and who would laugh at the fuss made by you sceptics over this incident.

Anyway - it prompted an amusing thread!

HP













:ok:

[LowNSlow]

Pity you didn't have any pics to post HP

PS When are you putting up the windsock and control tower :D :D :D

[Fly Stimulator]

HP,

Please put me down for the inaugural PPRuNe Front Garden Fly-in :ok:


By the way, on the subject of landing in interesting places, I think there's a Barra fly-in coming up in April which involves landing on the beach there at low tide.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Anybody out there done any mountain flying on skis? I bet thats fun.

Not for over a week, and I'm starting to get withdrawl symptoms!

Had a great session on the glaciers around Mont Blanc, followed by some PFL's into Megève altiport.

Here's a pic. (http://groups.msn.com/someflyingpictures/megve.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=22)http://flyos.free.fr/fna/imageforum/images/cub_megeve.jpg

[Hairyplane]

Hi AF - that does look like fun - I'm sure it would blow my frock right up.

How do I make it happen?

Is the 'apres ski' hangover compulsory? I had to give up skiing - I kept injuring my liver.

HP

[Rod1]

Nice pic. Apparently you can now put skis on an MCR-01!

Rod

[steamchicken]

....the next question will be whether or not you could arrive in the garden via a "run&break" over the clothesline......

[Rod1]

Whatdoyou mean over the clothesline. You go under dear boy..

[Kolibear]

Did you hear about the guy who flew under the Skye Bridge, because there was a flock of seagulls above him which prevented him from climbing....?

[Flyin'Dutch']

I was going to have a nosey around tomorrow to see if I could find the Auster......

Never mind.

What is a great shame though is that the best flying Wx so far this year had to coincide with one of the more busy periods at the grind stone.

And looking at the long TAFs it is due to finish..........tomorrow when I do have some time to go and play.

Well if it is as bad as suggested best go for a jar.

R U about?

FD

[Aerobatic Flyer]

HP
How do I make it happen?
Try this link. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79087)

[pilotwolf]

Well I too have my views about the preflight planning or lack of and the (ir)responsible attitude of the pilot regarding the landing strip but aren't going to waste my time posting them as genuine concerns about safety and standards of training result in the poster being labelled a tw@t.
:*

Might I suggest a free subscription to the AAIB accident reports each month - it is frightening how many of the incidents/accidents are due to poor planning/poor decision making/lack of common sense or sheer stupidity.

Flying IS fun thats we we all do it - thats why I fly rotary cos I think it even more fun BUT it needs to be keep as safe as is reasonably possible....

[Flyin'Dutch']

PW

It seems that you only read the first and last post on this thread.

I cant read anything in this thread which makes me think that this was an irresponsible act of bravado.

'spose it takes all kinds.

FD

[pilotwolf]

No FD I ve followed the thread closely.

Apart from the comment that at 0700 the Auster left the field at no time has Hairyplane given any details of his location or the type of garden he has, nor has he denied that this incident occurred due to a 'bet'. No details if the grass is prepared, no info as to whether Rule 5 may have been bent. How close the neighbours are or if they are flying friendly.

IMHO - the 'strip' wasn't in a suitable condition to use as a runway. Yes I know he landed OK, but the ground wasn't of a firm enough quality to take off again. That's fine for an EMERGENCY landing but for 'a drop in to prove I can' I think it was irresponsible - the pilot obviously didn't check the state of the strip either visually or by phone to Hairyplane or perhaps he did and made a judgement error - again HP hasn't been forth coming with details....

I never said it was an irresponsible act of bravdo - although if YOU read the whole thread I think there are others who may think this way.

What if the press had started asking questions? Would HP and his friend have lied as to why the ac was left there for days?

As I said flying is fun but as a pilot - professional or private you have to show a reasonable standard of sensibility and responsibilty.

[Tiger_ Moth]

I would like to give my support for Hairyplane's mate, he was just having a laugh and was easily capable of carrying it out, I mean it's not like he was flying a 3 foot fly by inverted, he was just landing on a 300m grass strip, not the most outrageous stunt I think you'll agree. And worst case scenario it's only him that's going to get killed anyway so it should be up to him. So fair play to him and congratulations on his fine aviating spirit. Frightening when you see some people want to ban that sort of thing, makes me wonder what private flying will be like when I'm older......

By the way, I reckon your average taildragger, strip flyer would be far more likely to walk away from an engine failure than your average spamcam guy.

[Flyin'Dutch']

PW, you wrote:

I never said it was an irresponsible act of bravdo

Can I just take you one paragraph back in your own posting:

I think it was irresponsible

I think you are getting far too hot under the collar:

1. What if the press had started asking questions
2. No details if the grass is prepared
3. no time has Hairyplane given any details of his location or the type of garden
4. IMHO - the 'strip' wasn't in a suitable condition
5. etc

1. yes so what, nowt illegal has happened. One is allowed to land on any piece of land over here providing you have the owner's permission. There is a specific proviso re rule five for the purpose of taking off and landing
2. It seems to have been prepared OK by the frost
3. One that is big enough for the purpose of this exercise
4. Obviously you were wrong; it was flown in and out without problems

And whilst I dont know HP's neighbours they are less likely to be upset by the gentle purring of the Auster's Cirrus than these noisy helicopters.

Chill bill,

:eek:

FD

PS: I think you are secretly jealous that a f/w guy did something usually only possible for you rotorjocks. Too darned small these English gardens :D

[pilotwolf]

FD.

Stop taking the Pi**!

The first quote is in correct - I actually wrote (IR)RESPONSIBLE - to allow others to make their own decision.

The 2nd quote was in response to your post so not sure how you can link this to your earlier post as it came afterwards.

1. Where does any post state or show this wasn't illegal? Illegal or not bad press affects all of us flyers - read recent posts on the forum about how the press distort the truth to give flying a bad deal.
2. Sorry but the low temperature making a 'strip' usable begs belief! What if it had defrosted before the pilot arrived?
3. Still no details - whatever you presume. I could physical land a S61 in my garden but it would still be stupid and irresponsible of me.
4. READ THE POST OF HAIRYPLANE. Hoping for frost or having to wait for the ground to dry before it can leave! Hardly no problems or a suitable ground for a 'runway'! If there were no problems with the strip he could of left the same day if he wished.,

Did I ever mention neighbours opinions on noise?

Anti aviation types actually don't know or care what it is that lands near there home - most wouldn't known the difference between a 747 or 152 or S61 or R22 - its all 'intrusive' noise.

To be honest I really don't give a toss about where you can or can't land. If anything the reverse is the case - planks are jealous of how versatile and adaptable rotary aircraft are...

Get real - on the basis of the information provided by Hairyplane and the lack of denial of irresponsiblity from him, what other conclusion can a PROFESSIONAL aviator or the general public come to?

[Flyin'Dutch']

:D :D :D

PW wrote:

FD.

Stop taking the pi**!

Tut tut tut who is taking the pi** here.

1. In this country one is innocent until proven guillty. Why do you assume that this was anything less than legal. Loads of people fly in and out of their strips/garden. If the thread would have read: 'Of course I can land in your paddock/field/strip' none of this would have been written.

2. I think that they would have drunk a cuppa instead of flying.

3. Only you can judge that as you know your skills and the size of your patch. I can't and neither can anyone else on this forum. The very crux of this thread :eek:

4. I best not tell you than that there are loads of 'official' strips and CAA licenced airfields that have to close in the winter due to waterlogging and general bogginess. You could get upset.


To be honest I really don't give a toss about where you can or can't land. If anything the reverse is the case - planks are jealous of how versatile and adaptable rotary aircraft are...

Language....

I think most f/w jocks admire the versatility of helos, however not if it driving them makes one uptight or suffering from a total humour failure :}

I was always under the impression that the main difference between 'the general public' and professionals was the ability to distinguish between what is written in the general press and factual reports.

May be not all professionals are blessed with this ability.

;)

In a previous post I wrote:

Chill bill,

As it seems you missed it first time around I thought I'd include it once more for your benefit.

FD

[152captain]

STOL clips available here (http://www.eddh.de/unterhaltung/clips.html)

152

[pilotwolf]

I just love the way some chose on to answer the bits of a post they want and conviently ignore bits they can't justify or respond to! :rolleyes:

1. Unfortunately the general public and/or the CAA don't see it that way...
2. What over the wreckage if the wheels had buried themselves in the boggy ground and the thing had stood on its nose?
3. Agreed but as I said no details have been provided, still, so the judgement I and others have made is based on the tone of post and the lack of evidence to prove that the area was suitable.
4. YES EXACTLY! THEY ARE CLOSED BECAUSE THEY AREN'T USABLE - just as this 'strip' was unusable for departures. As such a responsible 'official' strip would have been closed completely - not just when the ground temperature went above freezing.

Unfortunately the first post was written in the tone of a tabloid and no facts were available to make that decision.

I am perfectly chilled thanks - just think I that it is a waste of time trying to reason with some people! :confused:

Its becoming blatanly obvious what is wrong with this forum - if anyone dares to make a comment or judgement that is in disagreement with others opinions or behaviour they are immediately flamed.

Although I have a Commericial licence I m not flying for a living so I guess that makes my flying of a private nature. But even as a private pilot it seems my views or opinions aren't welcome....

[FlyingForFun]

Pilotwolf,

A few weeks ago, I flew out of a grass strip. It was very muddy - so much so that the owner kindly requested that I not do any circuits, and keep to the right-hand side of the strip because that was the least-muddy part. Because I don't have the figures to hand, I'm not going to tell you the length of the strip. There are some houses and a school immediately before the start of the strip, a church at the other end, and some neigbours who have big houses, lots of money and loud voices, and feel that the former two give them the right to use the latter to object to aeroplanes overflying their houses.

Do you think what I did was wrong? Because the place I was flying from was a licensed airfield - White Waltham, in fact.

FFF
-------------

PS - No one has said that your views aren't welcome, it's just that you have to be prepared to put forward a good argument with others who don't agree with you. You do have some points to argue - but the argument will only be worthwhile as long as we can ensure it does not degenerate to the level of personal abuse, which both you and FD are getting dangerously close to, IMHO.

[maggioneato]

Sounds like good fun to me,as one who flew from miles of tarmac for many years, I discovered strip flying 18 months ago, and now do so on a regular basis,walking the strip to pick out the less soggy bits.If the donkey stops,I feel I stand a much better chance of survival,than I had before flying from a farmstrip.Would love to have seen the landing and take off. Great stuff. :D

[pilotwolf]

FFF - sounds fun if you don't mind washing the mud off afterwards!

Obviously the ground was safe enough for you to get airbourne as otherwise I assume you wouldn't have tried - nor would the (?) licence holder permitted you to risk his licence/income or giving the locals more ammunition in the form of an accident/incident to get the field closed...

What concerns me is the lack of apparent planning in checking the field was suitable - it has never been denied by Hairyplane that his friend just turned up nor has he given any confirmation that his friend made the effort to plan properly.

I am arguing my points based on the facts provided - something which seems to upset others. Provide all the details, Hairyplane, and maybe I can then come to a different opinion on the event.....

I would point out also that I responded to the fact that I the thread had also been used to call me a Tw@t as I dared to question something on a different thread - which also ended up with me being flamed and accused of saying things which I hadn't...

Sorry, but I WILL defend myself and I respond to people in the same manner to which they 'speak' to me. As far as I am aware I have supported every statement I have made with the facts as provided and have made the effort to reply in full to the whole of a post....

[surely not]

Pilotwolf, your points are only valid IF
- the original post had stated that the pilot had never previously visited Hairyplanes house and garden.
- the post had stated that that there hadn't been any previous discussion between HP and his friend as to the length, condition etc of the garden.

However the post gave only the most basic information, upon which yourself and several others jumped in and completed the crossword without bothering to ask for the clues! Now you have the hump because some of the answers don't match the clues.

HP has nothing to defend himself against. I have a mental picture of him sitting at his computer chuckling away at all the supposition being used to condemn him. Just because HP hasn't told us the details of any planning or discussion you jump to the conclusion that there wasn't any.

Couldn't you have asked the question instead? In your last post you border on asking but it comes out more as a demand which is a tad conceited IMHO:p

You admit to basing your response on the 'tone' of the original post, and 'lack of evidence'. You seem to have mastered the keyboard so why didn't you ask before shooting from the hip?

HP - how far away are your nearest neighbours? Have they objected? Did the press pay you a visit? Will you be going fishing again in the near future!?

[Ludwig]

Well, I think if nothing else this thread has proven that there are (at least) two type of pilots; those who get on with doing what they enjoy, because they can, and those who whether through personal inadequacy or whatever, spend their lives looking for something to whinge about. Life is short enough as it is, tomorrow you may be hit by a car and die, live and let live I say, and leave the pointless bickering out. Remember we are not talking about a cure for world famine of the solution to war here, it's just some bloke in a 'plane havin' a larf. Get things into pespective. No one died; QED therefore not a problem.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Pilotwolf wrote:

I am perfectly chilled thanks - just think I that it is a waste of time trying to reason with some people!

Well you could have fooled me.

You say that you base your statements on evidence. Well actually you dont you jump in from a great height and made a big splat, a muddy one at that.

By your own admission:

:eek:

3. Agreed but as I said no details have been provided, still, so the judgement I and others have made is based on the tone of post and the lack of evidence to prove that the area was suitable

:D

Obviously the ground was safe enough for you to get airbourne as otherwise I assume you wouldn't have tried

So why is it OK for FFF to do this and not HP's mate?

Please elaborate on that one.

You further write:

I would point out also that I responded to the fact that I the thread had also been used to call me a Tw@t as I dared to question something on a different thread - which also ended up with me being flamed

We on this thread can not take responsibility for what has happened on other threads and I would certainly not want to be involved in any name calling.

What I do think though is that if people take a certain point of view and make comments about other people's action; that they have to be willing to substantiate that.

If you choose to shoot from the hip you have to be big enough to take the flak that follows.

FD

[Monocock]

Flyin Dutch, if I had to guess your profession I'd say you are a solicitor?????!!!!

Your post smacked the wolf in the forehead with that post and I would like to think we have seen the end of him. If he comes back I would take a guess that he's going to want to huff, and he'll puff.....

:)

[Evo]

Bloomin' 'eck, can we PLEASE stop slagging each other off. This used to be a friendly forum, but that seems to be fading as it grows. Hopefully the weather will pick up, we can all go flying and things will get back to normal.

:(

[pilotwolf]

Well you children can play by yourself - as is blatanly obvious you are more interested in having a go at me - just like the other thread - which the poster has to be responsible for as he and no one else wrote it.

I stand by what I said and if you chose to ignore or not actually read what I have said then I m not wasting anymore of my time. On the basis of what information was initially given I stand by the fact I feel this was an irresponsible act.

The diffeence between FFF and HP's friend is that FFF obviously walked or carefully examined the strip before attempting to use it HP's friend apparently did not.

I just hope you are so keen to stand behind this type of flying when or if the guy gets it wrong and ends up over the front page of the tabloids. Likewise I hope you are all so keen to stand up and fight the likes of FFF's 'neighbours' when they try and close down another airfield based on inconsiderate behaviour.

I ll stick to the PROFESSIONAL threads form now on.

I ll leave you with the old saying:

There are BOLD pilots and there are OLD pilots, but there aren't many OLD and BOLD pilots

[Flyin'Dutch']

Monocock.

You were right on the second count!

;)

FD

[flickoff]

No but there are a lot of boring pilots. Better to buy the farm having fun than die of boredom wishing you had had more fun.

[AerBabe]

Hmmm... FFF, did White Waltham let you wonder out across the airfield to walk it?
And HP, presumably your mate has been to see your 'front garden' before. Tell me, did you take your undies off the washing line to increase clearance?
;)

[BeauMan]

Ah, what fun this thread is. Having met Hairyplane very briefly a couple of years ago, and knowing one of his acquaintances quite well, I can hazard a guess at what Hairyplane himself has been doing in the past week or so.

I suspect he'd be logging on to this thread, reading some of the more extreme posts (I use the word extreme to describe the two ends of the "He's a nutter" / "No he's not, he's only having fun" spectrum), sitting back and having a bloody good chortle to himself at how ridiculously self important people can be. And rightly so. :ok:

[DamienB]

BeauMan - he was certainly doing exactly that last time I saw him!

Anyway, bet none of you could land in my garden! If the trees on finals don't get you, the wicked downslope and bird bath surely will.

[Evo]

I suspect he'd be logging on to this thread, reading some of the more extreme posts ... sitting back and having a bloody good chortle to himself at how ridiculously self important people can be


Ah, the joys of Trolling. Well done, Hairyplane, people took the bait. Now please don't do it again, there's a good chap... :bored:


troll

1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it.

[DamienB]

Evo - if the landing hadn't occurred and HP was making it all up maybe you would have a point. As it is, it did, so you don't. Or are you saying HP's mate did this purely so HP could troll the humourless on this board (of which, it seems, there are several)?

[Final 3 Greens]

Hairyplane

Will your mate land in my front garden for a bet ..................... (between Ladbrokes and me!) ;)

[Evo]

Damien - you've missed my point. The original post seems to have been written so that people would bite ("my front garden"...). You could tell the same story without the hook, so that's a troll in my book. All the "aren't we clever, we hooked them" backslapping points in that direction too.

To be honest, I don't know anything about the facts, so I've got no opinion about someone landing an aeroplane in Hairyplane's "garden". I'm just sad that what was once a fine forum is turning into this. :(

[DamienB]

And I rather think that was precisely HP's point - the forum has become just a little bit holier than thou recently.

I can only imagine what the response would have been if our interepid Cub pilot had performed a run and break before the landing ;)

[Cattle Driver]

Well, this my first and probably only posting on pprune, (I do not particuly like computer let alone the internet). I hope as a newcomer some of the posters above may have a little more respect for my offering than they did for other fellow aviators. I think a few of you would do well to take a CRM course - urgently if you are flying with other crew or passengers!

Until last week I had never even heard of pprune, a friend of my son suggested that I might have a look at a series of posting which might interest me. So here I am in the Private Pilots Forum and reading this series of postings. Please bear with me as it has taken some time for me to compose this and some points may have been answered already as I wrote this off the internet first.

My initial impressions of pprune were good then I found this part of the site. The attitude, behaviour of some posters and their treatment of another pilot who has differing opinions to them is the very reason I gave up club flying, over 11 years ago. It reminds me of the playground of a primary school. Is it any wonder the general non-flying public seems to be so full of misconceptions about aviation and pilots. Would you treat a child, spotter or potential recruit at your club or field the same way? I really hope not. I believe normal schools call ithis sort of behaviour bullying or a workplace would probably class it as harrassment.

Pilotwolf's face doesn't seem to fit here and several of the posters have, I feel attacked him/her for having different views to them, I also found the other series of posting I think he/she refers to, again he/she was targetted for differening views. Several other people in the posting also seemed to think the behaviour described in the first post was irresponsible, as probably do others who having seen the treatment one person receives for offering his/her views, chose to remain silent. I think based on the way the event was described I too feel the pilot may have not exercised the maximum amount of airmanship expected of him/he based on the available information.

Before I also get attacked please read my 'qualifications' for feeling I can comment on this.

1. Approximately 11000 hours total time, about 3400 of that was in helicopters, so I am not biased to either type of flying.
2. Approximately 8000 hours of the total has been spent flying into grass and unprepared strips, some in South Africa and some on my own farm.
3. I have flown singles, twins, piston, turbine/ turboprops, etc. I used to own a C152 until the foot and mouth problems when we nearly lost the farm - unfortunately the C152 was the first thing which I couldn't justify keeping. I have now lost the farm, but see below for the reason.
4. I had a prepared strip, which planning permission was granted for, including a small hanger. I maintained the strip after I sold the C152 as I hoped one day to get another.
5. My nearest neighbour was 2 miles away, unfortunately though he was only just about a mile from the preferred final approach.
6. I can't say where I lived but suffice to say it was pretty remote but close enough to some of our offshore islands to be of interest to Special Branch and Customs, in the first few months of use.

The previous neighbour wasn't anti flying and tolerated my 2 -3 excursions a week on average, without complaint. Within the week of a new neighbour moving in I had a letter from his solicitor complainin about the noise, my overflight of his house and his belief that I was breaking the low flying laws. While I can't be too precise about the times and places as I am still in a legal battle for damages I will be as accurate as I can.

Well the letters, (about 2 or 3 a month), kept coming and I kept polity answering them accurately and explaining the Regs, in particular Rule 5. I even tried inviting him and his wife for a free pleasure flight - which was declined along with more threats.

I made the effort to use the opposite approach when possible, shortening my downwind, flying very short finals and if unavoidable to approach overhead his house stay as high as possible until the last moment and drop in and land well down the strip, but this wasn't good enough for him. He then started calling the house after he had seen me leave and rant at my wife or son. On my solicitor's and the police's advice I started recording every detail of his abuse, the police, (a old fashioned non politically correct village Bobby), paid him a visit and the calls and letters stopped. Instead old tyres and strange holes began appearing on the strip - unfortunately I could never seem to catch anyone 'at it'. The hanger had CCTV and was alarmed but never approached at anytime. The problems stopped immediately I had sold the plane. This all took place over about 7 months.

Anyway a friend, who knew the strip well and had used it many times in the past, returned to the UK after several months aboard, knowing no details of the 'friendly' neighbour decided to pay me a surprise visit in his sporty little number!

He arrived overhead, flew a low level recon, and then made a sort of run and break type manoeuvre onto finals. The neighbour took offence at the 'aerobatics' over his house and decided to call the emergency services and report a plane crash. Fortunately my friendly Bobby knew I no longer owned a plane so called me on the phone immediately, and was fortunately able to stop the mass attendance of the police, fire, rescue, ambulance, CAA, AAIB, etc. before it all got too out of hand.

Unfortunately the local press arrived, presumably called by the neighbour too, and it took a considerable amount of convincing them that my friend hadn't crashed. Well he flew the aircraft out the next morning and the letters started again with vengence, along with a SB visit as my friend's aircraft was on the N register.

Now I fell out with my friend over his behaviour and was actually quite worried that someone I considered a sensible and responsible pilot had done what he had without even a call to ask me about the state of the strip. What if there had been one of the strange holes there, which he may have missed on his recon?

A few weeks after this, the neighbour presented me with a petition to close my strip, including several names who I thought were my friends and who had never objected to my flying before, some had even been on trips with me. Well this was the final straw, I decided I didn't need this sort of hassle or expense nor was it fair on my family so I sold up, barely breaking even, and moved away from what was our dream home and lifestlye.

At no time did I or my friend do anything illegal, and I went out of my way to sort things out amicably with the neighbour - all to no effect whatsoever.

While my friend's actions weren't the sole reason for my losing my dream, it was the final nail in the coffin. Well thats my sermon over except to say...

... please consider what effect your actions might have on others even if you are doing nothing illegal. Please respect other peoples' views, especially when they share the same hobby/interest/career as yourself. Enjoy flying - I no longer can - but please be sensible, safe and exercise good airmanship - EVERYTIME YOU CLIMB INTO ANY AIRCRAFT.

[Prof Denzil Dexter]

Blimey!! Good on you, Cattle Driver....My internet connection would have timed out long before I'd finished an epic post such as yours. You obviously type quicker that I do...

[Whirlybird]

Cattle Driver,

You probably won't even read this, but what the hell; I like posting. :) As for credibility, my 500 hours TT can't compare to your thousands of hours, but I wasn't planning to flame you anyway. However, I do know about PPRuNe - you have to be on here a lot to have over 1000 posts (sad person that I am :rolleyes: ). There are a huge number of people registered, and like people everywhere, they vary a lot. As has been said on other threads, some post in a hurry, when tired, when annoyed, or without thinking - and some of us post to personal friends things which could be easily misconstrued by anyone else. For instance, I know Pilotwolf personally - and he comes over as very different in posts to in person, for some reason or another. So I think you may have jumped to conclusions rather quickly. CRM, primary school, bullying? Come off it!!!! A bunch of us meet twice a year for bashes, several times for fly-ins, and on other occasions too, and I don't even need the fingers of one hand to count the ones I don't get on with. And I run out of fingers and toes if I count the ones who've become personal friends. And I'm by no means unique - a fairly average ppruner in fact.

This thread was deliberately started to stir things up on what had become a fairly boring forum... and by God did it work! :ok: Good on ya Hairyplane; this has been a lot of fun...but it's harmless fun, isn't it.

If you wanted to, I'd suggest you stick around and see for yourself. But since you say you don't like computers or the internet...well, byebye then, and thanks for your opinions. Er...any chance you could make them a little shorter next time though, for those of us with a short attention span. :D (Note the smiley; Whirly is known to have a warped sense of humour and that's a JOKE!!!!!)