PPL - Elstree

[Flyby Guy]

My nephew wants to get a PPL. He lives in North London so it makes sense (I think) for him to do it at Elstree. There seems to be 2 schools there: Cabair and Firecrest Aviation. Cabair seem a bit pricey though !

Any views/other recommendations gratefully received.

[Bluebeard2]

Hi FlyBy

I did a fair chunk of, and completed, my PPL with Firecrest. I found them to be a friendly operation and reasonably efficient with decent instruction. Compared to Cabair they are a little shabbier in terms of presentation, Cabair has a very nice office and a fleet of smart newish aircraft, but then its questionable how important these things really are.

There is another outfit at Elstree, Flyteam, I'm not sure if they still do instruction from Elstree.

Overall Elstree is a good place to learn at as it has a shortish runway and can be very busy - all good experience. Depending on where you nephew is he might also want to take a look at Stapleford as well, I don't have any personal experience of them but they seem quite professional.

[Flyby Guy]

Many thanks Bluebeard

[Archard]

As I understand it Flyteam Aviation are not permitted to do basic PPL flying training at Elstree.

Also, I would have no hesitation in recommending Firecrest Aviation, especially if you are looking for a friendly atmosphere.

However, I have to declare an interest in the foregoing, as I have just renewed my IMC Rating with them!

Paul A.

[Kolibear]

Can I suggest you type 'Elstree' into the forum search engine for a wide range of opinions.

[KitKatPacificuk]

Well I'm not gonna mention the schools but I will the Airfield.
1) Elstree ATC, the most unfriendly and uptight bunch of controllers I have ever had the displeasure of being on a frequency with. They thing they are Gods gift but very far from it.

2)The Runway. Ok it's short, which is good practice. But check out the surface of it. Full of pot holes and ruts. Probably the worse runway I've ever landed on. Infact some Grass runways are smoother.

3)The circuit. When you are with a student, it's nice for them to get used to a circuit pattern. If you are circuiting to the North there are 3 different patterns. Outer, Middle and Inner. How confusing is that for new students.

There are other bits but I wont go into anymore. But think of the senario of Take off on a bad runway surface, trying to work out which circuit pattern to fly around and speaking to unhelpful ATC that actually allow joining traffic prority. Then land on a badly surfaced runway, It's a joke.

Go somewhere else.
Denham, Wycombe, Stableford are much better choices.

Good luck

[Bluebeard2]

KitKatPacificUK has some valid points; I wouldn't choose to fly from Elstree as a qualified PPL. BUT that doesn't mean it should be out of bounds for a student:

1. Dodgy ATC- there is one AFISO who is notoriously bad tempered who does let the side down. The others tend to be fine.

2. The Runway - its not flat (it has a noticeable slope with a bit of a dip in the middle!), and its not in A1 condition, but its perfectly acceptable. The downslope means that solo (training?) circuits are banned on 08, this can a bit of a pain but it wasn't a huge problem for me.

3. Circuits - yes, they are completely bonkers, but not unmanageable. I did my tailwheel conversion at Turweston and found the circuit to be equally bizarre.

I'm not Elstree's biggest fan, and there certainly are better airfields you might want to take your custom - but its good enough so your nephew shouldn't be put off if it has to be Elstree.

[ChiSau]

I have no experience of Elstree, but also live in North London and recently completed my PPL. I had to choose between Denham and Elstree and opted for the Pilot Centre at Denham.

Extremely good bunch of people and very friendly - highly recommended.

:)

[185 Lbs of Ballast!!]

My understanding is that if ou are not a Cabair student then you can't do circuits there. So where do Firecrest go to do theirs?:confused:

[drauk]

Firecrest have an arrangement with Cabair to allow them to do circuits. Flyteam aren't allowed to do circuits and hence don't do initial PPL training, only rental, checkouts, additional ratings, etc.

The variable circuit pattern is no big deal.

The grumpy controller is indeed grumpy, but he is the only one. Unfortunately he is the one there most often, but again, most students don't find it too big a deal.

Given the number of times a PPL student will be going back and forth to an airfield, the convenience of that airfield is very important in my view. So if Elstree is the most convenient there is no reason not to learn there.

[bd01uk]

Well, if I was giving advice to someone about Elstree, I would say to go and learn to fly there. You will learn so much there because its so busy and you wouldn't be worried about visiting other airfields. Alright one of the ATC men are really rude, (i saw at first hand the other day, when i was booking my dual check) I popped in to the tower and if you think he is rude on the air then you should hear him off it. He even ordered someone to see him in the tower, by saying "all instructions on the ground are mandatory" - Dont mean to put you off there flyby guy.

Choose Cabair to fly with, - im not biased or anything, i just think they helped me really well and there is always an aircraft to fly.

[Jeffrey]

Oh dear, more Elstree bashing. I learnt to fly there some time ago, and have continued to hire from their well maintained fleet. The instructors are enthusiatic and very professional, the brand new Warriors/Archers are a joy to fly, though the twins (Cougars) are a bit tatty as there are no new build a/c available.

The AFIS has never been rude to me, though I have heard and seen pilots been fairly reprimanded, usually because they are unaware, not having properly self-briefed before arrival/departure, of the particular requirements for Taxiing/landing there.

It is a demanding environment and given a disciplined approach will certainly stand you in good stead for visiting other airfields (Shoreham springs to mind).

I omitted to say that it was Cabair I was referring to, and highly recommend their expertise.

[Unwell_Raptor]

A relative of mine, living in North London, has just gone through this process.

He is now happy at Wycombe.

[av001]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks Elstree's ATC is abysmal. I havn't been there for a couple of years, but how on earth can a"controller"pretend to be able to control traffic in the circuit when he is sat in a hut, at ground level, with a less than 180 degree view of the area. I have suffered from the extremely rude and unhelpful gentleman (has he retired?) but even the helpful and constructive contollers are constrained by the limited visibility.

[AliB]

I have no experience of Elstree, but also live in North London and recently completed my PPL. I had to choose between Denham and Elstree and opted for the Pilot Centre at Denham.

Extremely good bunch of people and very friendly - highly recommended.


Ditto - word for word, except the North London bit - Watford doesn't really count as London I think. See you around TPC ChiSau (PM your real name and I'll know who to look out for!) ;)

AliB
(Thats Alastair Beadle)

[essouira]

I found Elstree very unfriendly when I was a PPL. For example, we were not welcomed into the bar and the general attitude was one of willy-waving. Denham is friendlier but you have to fly a long way from the overhead to do your training and there are no real facilities (food etc). Think about driving a bit further and saving time and money in the air. Wycombe is good and White Waltham is even nicer with a great restaurant and not a lot further round the M25. Stapleford is really friendly, professional and has a restaurant/bar etc. If you can face the drive, Little Gransden is half the price of Cabair with a great club environment. Suggest your nephew goes visit all of these and makes his mind up based on the reception he gets.

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Not wishing to be pedantic, but there is NO ATC at Elstree. The service there is INFORMATION (used to be RADIO and may occasionally still be so).

The AFISO in the tower has control of ground movements, and can only advise for activity in the air. He may well be trying to see what's going on out there, but it is the pilot's responsibility to check for taking off, landing and so on (hence the "at your discretion"). Because of the very heavy traffic levels (especially on nice weekends) and the odd, long, 4 mile straight in joins for landing, someone has to try and give some order to the proceedings. It doesn't always work, and a go around can be an expensive extra ten minutes in the air....... but you have to take the "advice" of Elstree Information as much as possible, else bedlam would ensue.

Given the difficult circumstances, the chaps in the "tower" do a good job. Those of us familiar with Elstree know that, at times, the INFORMATION service is bending into ATC, but it isn't actually Air Traffic Control! On the ground, the taxiways are narrow, planes are parked on each side, and one has to be careful.

Just my 2p worth.

[ppl(a)]

I've a share based at Elstree. Much of the above criticism is true, from unfriendly radio, to tightish parking and sloped runway etc.

I did a quick half hour trial there ten years back, then being fortunate enough to have saved enough to pay in one lump, I did an all-in PPL course in Guernsey - and I KNOW the "eat, sleep, dream flying for three weeks" worked for me. But it may not for everyone, and you'd have to get the money / time off work etc.

And so what I'd say is, yes, convenience is VERY important, all the more so if you plan to spread the course out over months. And in that case, Elstree may be closest etc.

One thing I would comment on is that Cabair and Firecrest are the only ones able to fly "normal" circuits at Elstree, (If you can call the 3 different circuit positions 'normal').

But there are other, probably considerably cheaper, ways to learn at Elstree. After getting my license in Guernsey, a friend introduced me to Lion Flying Group based there, from whom I hired Cherokees etc. But they also have very experienced, qualified CFI, and currently, I believe, at least one C150 and one C172, and have successfully trained many PPLs.

But there is one other factor affecting their training. They, as do other owners based at Elstree, now have no option but "Four mile Final" type of, er, massive "circuits" (if you can call them that), be they on 08 or 26. So what might be, say, an eight minute circuit with Cabair, may be a 15 minute circuit for others! Which may ease the time pressure a bit when it comes to circuit practice, (but of course clocks up more tacho. time/cost per circuit.

[AC-DC]

I am Elstree based. The points that make it not the best place to learn to fly are also the points that might make you a pilot that do not afraid of busy environment, it is so busy. Inbound aircraft has priority over a circuit flying one, so if I arrive after a nice day in France you have to aborted your landing and let me in. The reason is NOISE. There is a small group of 'Professional complainers' that do not make life easy, therefore there are restrictions that we all have to follow. Only the flying schools are allowed to fly the circuits (if you can call it as such) all the rest have to leave the circuit and fly 4 miles final so if we have to abort it is another 10-15min in the air. A Navajo owner did it 3-4 times on a busy Sat. afternoon, he was not happy.

Training.
Can be done only by Cabair and Firecrest, both have limitations. Cabair are expansive but have nice fleet, and always have aircraft to give away, you also must be a member of whatever scheme they tell you (Gold, Bronze or whatever). Firecrest are friendly with some good instructors (thinking of Jeff). The aircraft are safe but not pretty, they are also under the thumb of Cabair, they are not permitted to fly more then X number of training flights a day/hour.

Elstree Info.
Can be a bit hard on the pilot, depends who seats in the box. The person that you all refer to is trying his best to keep the temper down. After being inside the control box more than once I can understand him but do not agree with the attitude. On one hand he has the professional complainers on the phone telling him that a jet just flew very low over their house, he answers that this jet is a 747 from LHR does not help, they keep with the subject. Tell them that it was an emergency landing does not help either, Why did he has to fly over my house, he should not. Then, you have the first solo in the air trying to mumble something while at the same time a visiting pilot without a PPR asking for overhead joining (we do not have it). This pilot is where he shouldn’t...the telephone rings again...another professional complainer on the line, at the same time a non based non radio Cessna fly inside the helicopter’s training area at ~100’ forcing all to fly in all directions. I guess that you got the picture. By the way, I did not made it, it is all true.

The airfield as a whole.
Very busy and can be challenging to a pilot that is not used to short runway with obstacles on both sides, sometime I still judge it wrong. The runway has a shape of a stretched 'S', this airfield will demand the best part of you. You will find there tycoons and builders. To gain excess to the aeroclub one has to be a member, otherwise the Café that has recently changed hands, is open to all, and it also became much friendlier. It is not the nicest airfield around and it is not cheap flying from there, you might find better places but you will have to travel. You pay the money…

[Jeffrey]

I really do not understand why the AFISO at Elstree comes in for so much stick. There are several experienced controllers working the r/t, and if you take the trouble to go and see how efficiently they work you might then understand what a testing job they have.

You are quite correct that they are not ATC, but they provide a very valuable service in a busy training environment, with all that that implies with (erring) solo student pilots.

It seems that when an organisation becomes an 'aunt sally' everyone becomes very negative, I think a little calm reflection might produce a more balanced view.

[Wolram]

Help needed please - recently here somebody (PPLa) referred to
the lion Flying group based at Elstree - anyone know anything about them - where and how to contact them etc ??

Help please - somebody mentioned Lion Group based at Elstree
as a possible cheaper way to obtain traing ? anybody know their contact or indeed anything about them ??

[Leclairage]

Landing Fees at Elstree

Home based a/c do not pay landing fees at Elstree. (This certainly was the case very recently and I believe is still the case)

So. Students should NOT pay Cxxxxx for landing fees which the company is not having to pay!
Perhaps if this fee were waived, it would go some way towards the extra 'in the air' costs of having to fly a much longer circuit than at other fields.

[ppl(a)]

Wolram

The Lion Fying Goup based at Elstree has its own website at:

www.lionflyinggroup.com

Have a look at that, and I spoke to the CFI today who said she'd be pleased to hear from you at:

[email protected]

ppl(a)

[AC-DC]

Leclairage

I do not understand the problem. Flying schools/clubs are business, they only care how much money they can make and how they can reduce cost. They charge you £10 landing fees, this is money in with no overheads, to allow you another 5min. in the air will increase their expanses and reduce their profit. You would do the same if you were in their position, but you are not.
:p

[Leclairage]

AC-DC

Thanks for the passionate outburst. I do regret however that you cannot speak for me! Further, I own a businees, and well understand costs and margins.

However, to mis-represent a landing fee situation will only (speaking from personal experience!) alienate a student upon discovering that he/she has been ripped off.

Cabair would have one believe that they value on-going business as a PPL hirer. Hard to credit in the face of non existant landing fees payable!!
Yes, I agree a great training company, but if you want consistency of instructors, go to their smaller operations as the larger ones will put a student with whichever instructor/aircraft is convenient on the day.

[Dunc]

I to live in Watford and trained at Cabair from Elstree. I have no complaints about them. The only issue I had was having four instructors during my training, as they all were only there only to hour build on their KLM sponsorships.

I now run my plane from there and apart from the grumpy ATC there are some very helpful and freindly pilots.

Try a trial lesson with both firms and see what you think.

[Finals19]

Good to hear some healthy debate on Elstree. I for one trained with Flyteam who have an office there...but actually do their training at EGTC Cranfield..about 45mins up the M1. A complete chalk'n cheese situation...Cranfield has a 1700m runway but is equally if not more busy in the (again rather large) circuit.

As for Elstree, I do not find it a particularly good field from a practical viewpoint..the large circuit is a definite negative. I can understand noise abatement rules, but how can that apply to Cabair and Firecrest but not to others? Furthermore it is a fact that elstree has some v. rich memebers with v. nice aircraft and that to this end, it is perhaps not seen as a particularly friendly PPL training facility.

As for the aforementioned AFISO, I do not care what anyone says about stress...there is no reason to be unprofessional on the radio, and by getting ****ty (as he definitely does)he makes it a) stressful to the poor pilot trying to cope with a busy circuit and b) quite simply bad manners...just because he is having a bad / stressful day doesnt mean he should take that out on others. Yes, he may have 101 things on the go at the same time, trying to "AFISO" safely and efficiently, but is he being thrown around over the trees at the end of 26 or trying to sort out his 4 mile final and safe seperation from traffic in front? Having your ear chewed off whilst doing that increases pilot stress and ultimately could steer you towards capacity overload. My answer is if he doesnt like the job, or indeed cant handle the stress, then to go and do something else.

[Flash0710]

Finals 19,

Hit the nail on the head!

It's his job. You would soon be sacked for rudeness in any other damn job

He is there to provide a service.

And on the curcuit?

Is it legal to have a cct outside an atz?

Lots of dodgy phaseology " Join report 4 miles?" not in cap 410

Im still waiting for a request that we call him Elstree director!

Can't stand the place snobby grotty much better places to go.

[AC-DC]

Leclairage
Thanks for the passionate outburst.
Does not happen too often :D

However, to mis-represent a landing fee situation will only (speaking from personal experience!) alienate a student upon discovering that he/she has been ripped off.

To fly with Cubair was your first mistake, they have the reputation of taking your money without your knowledge.

Finals19
It is hard to argue with you, you are right. Have you seat with him in the bar? Have you been in the box to see what he has to face? I know, you are right, just to let you know that he is a nice guy (away from the box).
Furthermore it is a fact that elstree has some v. rich memebers with v. nice aircraft and that to this end, it is perhaps not seen as a particularly friendly PPL training facility.

I don't understand your point:confused:

[Leclairage]

Hi AC-DC

:D

No worries!
It was Cabair not Cubair

I fully agree with earlier view(s) on dreadful attitude of chap in 'tower'.
Poor adherence to correct nomenclature and shameful temperament, particularly at a training, and sometimes tricky airfield is not really good enough.
But he is still in post, so I guess his management must be happy with him.
Perhaps they should go and listen in to radio traffic at other airfields to learn how nicely/professionaly it CAN be done!

[essouira]

I've always found the guys in the tower at elstree ok - maybe I've just been lucky. It's the Elstree-based pilots that have been unhelpful and rude. It's a pretty unfriendly place for a ppl, I think. Perhaps it's a result of the cabair gold braid syndrome.

[Flash0710]

And being asked to " remain north of the m25 "

Another instruction, outside of the atz by a fiso.

so if you are travelling west to east the line feature rule goe's out the window doe's it ?

How is it still open?

[AC-DC]

essouira

Can you give some examples please? I am not going to say that all is rosy but at least people will know what they have to work on.


Flash0710

And being asked to " remain north of the m25 "

Then you contradict yourself and say:

Another instruction, outside of the atz by a fiso.

In my book arequest is not the same as instruction. Then you keep on and say:

so if you are travelling west to east the line feature rule goe's out the window doe's it ?

Who is Pilot in Command? It is your duty to follow the rules, you were ASKED not TOLD.
The reason that you were ASKED to remain North of the M25 is because Elstree circuit is about 1mile South of the M25, you can find there low time PPLs, low time students with/without instructors and first solo. This request is for your safety just as theirs. The reasons for this were explained in the magazines and on this forum. That is fine if you don’t want to except it but do not complain about the FISO asking you to keep your distance. You are P1, it is your responsibility to keep clear of other traffic, if you don’t it is your head, isn’t it?

[Flash0710]

ACDC

Who said it was a request ?

Phaseology is there to ensure there is no confusion or ambiguity thoughout transmission.

ie descresionary relates to fiso

and cleared relates to atc

Perhaps if you are that low time ppl and you fly into elstree you would listen follow the fis intructions as illegal as they are be the wrong side of the line featue and bang into something.

as far as i know the only positive control a fiso has is on the ground. That being the case a request to remain north of the m25 seems pretty instructive in my book.

i agree that its the pilots responsibilty to follow line feature rule and i ignored the fiso and remained south so i could avoid other pilots avoiding the circus that elstree is following real life aviation rules.

[Flash0710]

Jeffery

They provide a service?

Are you sure ?

As far as im concerned a service is somethimg you recieve in a courtious way.

and its been a long time since i recieved ANY traffic information at els apart from

" Report four mile final runway xxx circ xxx " again instructions but hey he can bend it for you i'd feel safe!

[Leclairage]

'report the tall building'

What tall building?

[Flash0710]

You Know.........

...The tall one..........

Check out the Aerodrome Fire regs on the notice board in the cafe.

If the caa approved that they need a new grammar/spell check/monkey.....!!!!


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Jeffrey]

Flash0710
Still just another number

Click here to order your Personal Title

posted 14th March 2003 02:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeffery

They provide a service?

Are you sure ?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Oh we are being picky. The 'service' does enable the smooth and more importantly, safe transition of airframe to air and back again.
I have no quarrel with those who find AFISO a bit abrupt, but if you want to operate in any airspace and have not made sufficient enquires as to its requirements, then you cannot be surprised if you are told that what you are doing compromises safety.
And if you are in a busy environment, though it would be preferable for a calm voice to point out your error, we do not live in a perfect world, and as P1 you should be able to cope with any safety related instuction.