FlyBe Cancels Again

[Minesagrolsch]

FlyBe need to sack their ops guy !
There have been virtually no flights in or out of the Channel Islands for two days (26,27 Jan) due to dense fog.
FlyBe decided to cancel all remaining flights on Monday by early afternoon.So the fog lifts (in Guernsey at least) at 1630.There are now hundred's stranded pax in the islands and LGW who could have travelled what with nearly 5 hours of normal opening time left (plus extension till midnight available) had someone been a little less heavy handed with the marker pen !!

[blackbox]

"flybe need to sack their ops guy!"

How can the ops guy have any influence on the weather!!! As a fellow ops bod, I get somewhat dismayed with people who cast criticism and dont take the full picture into account (ie. the rest of the days operation that needs to be protected!!)...

[Sir Donald]

Minesagrolsch,
Ops guy vs weather.Hmmmm. Too many beers?

:mad:

[Sliding member]

Minesagroslch, you really don't see the 'big' picture, there could be many reasons for flights canx at 16:30 when the wx opened up, wingeing flight deck for a start would not be happy sat around waiting for wx to improve , keeping duty hours down being important. So just be glad you are on a beutiful rock. Being a Grolsch drinker, that explains it all...:D :D

[Xenia]

If the ops guy has influence on the weather ... then he may be God! Even in that case is better not to sack him! :D

[4Ohm]

I think you're forgetting all the other complications - such as Crew Duty Hours, Crews being in the wrong place, not being able to position crews in etc etc..

But what you've failed to mention is that the BA LGW Flights were all cancelled by 11:30 and that's with all their resources.

I think Flybe did a good job holding out for as long as they could.

[welkyboy]

Usual problem. The jersey met office said their would be no chance of a clearance of fog before midnight(after the passage of cold front) So the airlines canx and the pax can go home or back to their hotels, and the fog promptly clears at 1630!!. Aurigny managed a couple of inter island flights but most pax travelled by boat JB to JJ but no boat JJ to JB. Most passengers are happy if they know what is happening and not just hanging around, tho the airlines always get a slating in the local press( Flybe being described as shoddy and sloppy!!)

[No Mode Charlie]

Me tinks I'd have to be with Minesagrolsch,

It is clear that the operations people in EXT have demonstrated a total lack of capability in lifting fog. APPALLING :rolleyes: Same with the met office people in JER. I mean, if anybody is expected to lift the fog then surely they are!

Have another MAG, sounds like you need it:D

[A Nonny Mouse]

I seem to recall a flight leaving LCY on Sunday night (BEE477), holding over the EGJJ area for a long period, and then returning to LCY.

In fact, the poor controllers at City could have all had a late (22:30) stay that night waiting for the possibility of the fog lifting and the DH8 departing for JJ, but were saved by the fact that JJ closes fairly early!

At least they gave it a go!

[RAT 5]

Talking of having power over the weather;

I was inbound MXP with a CAT 1 a/c. Fog down to RVR 500m. Agh!

The ATC chappie asked what I needed to land. 550m I said.

Would you believe it? A couple of minutes later, approaching the OM, the RVR rose spectacularly to 550m. Either they had a hotline to the Pope, or realised that a G/A is free but a landing buys lunch.

[Hooligan Bill]

RAT 5

Did they launch one ahead of you? When it is marginal this quite often lifts the reading for long enough to get one in, at least if you time it properly;)

[cumulo-granite]

But what you've failed to mention is that the BA LGW Flights were all cancelled by 11:30 and that's with all their resources.


...but what you've failed to mention (or realise) is that BA's flying through GCI finishes much earlier than FLYBE's so the decision is easier to take, however regrettable, earlier on in the day.

Also, I wouldn't call 5 ATR72s a significant resource! There is an ever reducing possibility of the very occasional RJ100, but these aircraft are fully committed to other routes.



:confused:

[AirScrew]

OK We all know how often the fog in Jersey can spoil the party.

But I have the perfect solution.

We can learn from our friends in HK when they abandoned Kaitak.

Just move the airfield. :D

Throw a few rocks (OK large ones) into the sea, maybe near the mainland, and build a damn big bridge.
The island is so wealthy it would be easily funded by raising the very low tax by half a point.

It would even appease the noise abatment Nimbys....

Comments??

[Wet Power]

Said years ago that Guernsey should buy an old aircraft carrier off the Navy and sail it to wherever the clear bit is around the islands.

Passengers could then be ferried by boat the short distance to shore.

[Minesagrolsch]

Thanks everyone.
I knew I would get the "ops guy playing god with the weather"line.
Ha ha.Very witty.
The point I was trying to make,was that it seemed a bit premature to cancel all flights based on a notoriously unreliable wx forecast so early in the day.There was five hours of good flying in and out of the channel isles last night (with more available through extensions).But,apart from a couple of inter-island flights and one in and out to SOU there was nothing,as all the flights had been cancelled,assuming that the wx would stay foggy.
I think I would be a little peeved if I had been stuck in LGW or one of the islands for up to 48 hours,knowing that the weather was fine but all flights had been abandoned hours earlier.
The aircraft on the routes to GCI and JER are (in FlyBe's case) dedicated to the route,so they weren't needed elsewhere.
I don't know the ins and outs of an ops guys job,but would have thought that it wouldn't take too much thought to keep the crews in a local hotel,and call them if and when the wx lifted,as was the case.
Sill,what do I now.I've only being flying in and out of the islands for 30 years.

[puddle-jumper]

Mag,
I wish it was that simple ! Unfortunately you can't just keep crews waiting in a hotel ready to scramble at short notice. I am willing to bet that the crews had been on duty from 06.00 am having done the red-eye JER-LGW and that they had remained on duty at the airport in the hope that the weather would clear. From that time in the morning you are limited to do about 11 hours so unless they were sure of landing at JER before 5 pm then they had no choice. In order to land in JER before 5 pm they would have to start the ball rolling in LGW about 3.30 pm, i.e. - 1 crystal ball needed. :eek:
As Airlines tend not to have fresh crews on standby ready to operate at short notice living near all the airports they operate into (they tend to be where the A/C is based, you find things run much smoother that way;) ) then the only option is to cancel so that you can get your only and knackered crews to the hotel ASAP so that they have the minimum required 11 hours rest so they are able to have another go first thing next morning.
If the fog had cleared a couple of hours earlier then things would have been different as FlyBe tend not to cancel flights UNLESS IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, unlike some others I could mention.

[Minesagrolsch]

puddle-j.
Not quite !
The thing is there was no red eye yesterday,as the fog had already been in situ since the previous morning,and the crew was already at LGW having n/s.
So there were crews sitting around in both the islands and LGW,well rested and waiting to go.

[puddle-jumper]

Mag,
If the fog had lifted in the morning no doubt you would have expected the flight to go. In order to achieve this the crews at LGW have to be on duty from early in the morning so that they can be contacted and sent to airport at short notice. Even if this was the case it would take around 2 hours from phoning the crew at the hotel to departing. The fact that they are in a hotel and 'well rested' as you put it is incorrect. It is not possible to rest and be on standby for immediate call out at the same time, the only way they can LEGALLY rest is to be off duty i.e. not contactable.
Also how do we know that the whole crew were even available to operate. If they had already had an unscheduled night stop they may well be on a day off the next day, you are then into asking them kindly to work their day off - which I have to admit is not normally a problem with FlyBe crew.
The problem is you only have one set of crew who are away from base and are only capable of doing so much.
Trust me, FlyBe do not cancel flights on a whim.
Look at it from the other side of the coin, the last thing they want is to upset customers.

[CaptAirProx]

Life doesn't revolve around the Channel Islands.

For a start the Jersey Dash flies onward to the IOM during its duty JER-LCY.

The inter-island Dash comes from Exeter which also goes onto Dublin. Also the Dash Q400 comes inter-island from BHX, it also has a program out of BHX.

The other Dash into JER from LCY comes from BHD. It also has a full program elswhere.

So minesagrolsch, Flybe's aircraft are not all dedicated to JER/GCI.

Flybe have to remember to not P*** many other pax off by fouling up the other parts of the jigsaw puzzle.

[Minesagrolsch]

puddle j.
Point(s) taken.
Capt A,
Forgive me,but who mentioned anything about a Dash ?
I was talking about the LGW/Jer and LGW/Gci routes,if you could be bothered to read the posting properly before jumping in with your size eights.They are operated by 146's which basically go back and forwards the whole time,unlike those even smaller puddle jumpers that obviously "Dash" about all over the place.
Ding ding,over to you !!

[Minesagrolsch]

Right-enough of that.The Ops guy can have his job back,for now.
I've got another rant about FlyBe (Cavok) Ltd.It's this :
Why have they got such a restrictive and unhelpful Staff Travel policy ?
Two examples;
1.They keep you waiting until the very last minute before accepting you for a flight.Now,admittedly,if the flight is busy,you obviously have to wait until the flight is closed and the despatcher has checked the weight/load etc before onloading standby's.
But,even when the flight is very quiet,you are still kept waiting until the announcements for "the two remaining inbred's travelling to Guernsey please attend gate 105 immediately,where the aircraft is waiting to depart".
Sby's are then finally given a boarding card and procede to the gate,where the gate staff look at you as if you have just ambled down to the gate and are holding up the flight.You then board the Jimbo Jet to find 50 empty seats.Why couldn't they check you in a tad earlier-are they expecting a late booking or 5 tons of freight to appear ?
2.At the opposite end of the scale,when the flight is busy,which is more often the case,FlyBe will NOT put staff in Business class.They leave you behind and go with empty seats !
These days,they are marketing themselves as a low cost carrier and have good loads.But Business is often half empty as nobody wants to pay for it.What other airline leaves staff behind rather than take them in business ?(I'm sure there are some,but in the UK ?)
Let's face it,a 30 minute hop across the channel is hardly a perk,which adds up to a slightly wider seat and a snack.If majors such as BA will put you in Club World on a long haul sector if all other cabins are full(and only if they are) then why can't FlyBe take staff in their empty "business" seats ?
Any takers ?

(Ouch)

[Final 3 Greens]

FlyBe (Cavok) Ltd

Bit harsh? Still, better than

FlyBe (CFIT) Ltd

[puddle-jumper]

Mag,

So let me get this straight, YOUR AIRLINE STAFF ? If so then you should understand why airlines cancel due to weather/delays etc.

As for upgrading - I would love to upgrade airline staff to get them on the flight and have done so in the past but the company policy now is no upgrading. These days the Capt. doesn't even know who is being bumped off flights as the check in staff deal with it and the dispatcher doesn't usually mention it so as with allot of things now it's out of our hands.
Then again if it was up to me I would only upgrade the one's who don't come on PPrune and spout off about the Airline who have just granted them a CHEAP STAFF TICKET.:rolleyes:

[Minesagrolsch]

Puddle j.
The point I was trying to make is,why do FlyBe ban staff (including their own) from Business when economy is full ?It's hardly a premium service full of celebs.(I know the decision is out of the flight crew's hands.)
Most other airlines will take staff if they can find them a seat,obviously starting with economy and working forward.It used to be the done thing.
Seems a bit mean.I bet Flybe "Powers That Be" would happily except a seat in Business/First on BA,or the like if that is all that is available?

[CaptAirProx]

minesagrolsch, whatever, I really can't be bothered.

Turn the heat up and you might just get to fry that chip of yours.

No wonder you get bumped off.

[excrab]

MAG,

In defence of Captain airprox and Flybe, in your original post you stated that all later flights had been cancelled - which would imply that you were refering to flights from EXT and BHX as well as LGW. Therefore he was quite correct to mention the Dash 8 services.

In my experience Flybe/British/Jersey European try very hard on the Channel Islands routes. Their aircraft have often despatched from BHX and EXT with both islands below limits, held overhead and then returned to base, thus incurring great expense to the airline in an effort to operate the route and serve the CI community.

Regarding staff travel in business class I have certainly travelled in their business cabin on a standby ticket, although not to/from GCI or JER so maybe those routes are different.

Incidentally do you work for Flybe or a rival - I ask because this thread seems to be a deliberate (and in this case I would say undeserved) attack on their reputation.

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

Minesagrolsch - I was intrigued by your broadside attack on FlyBe, and having looked at your various posts on Pprune see that you are in fact a long-haul pilot in BA. On reflection, it should have been obvious as very few other flying creatures can afford to commute to their 'occasional' work from the Channel Islands tax haven!

What I find particularly intriguing is that you expect crews to be 'resting' in a hotel but 'available' for immediate action when the weather man gets it wrong - a sort of 'scramble-scramble-scramble' really? (You're not an ex RAF fighter pilot are you, you know, leather gloves and silk scarf and all that?).

Let me see - BA ask you to go back to your hotel following your 0600 report, but want you to stay in contact to operate in case the fog lifts? "Just make it a split duty, Ginger old chap - that will sort out the duty period".

Now tell me YOU would not be the first one on the phone to the British Airways Line Pilots Association!

It seems it is not only the islands that are foggy? To be fair, I seriously doubt you understand much about short-haul operations.

Get real!

Walt

[Minesagrolsch]

excrab,
I do not work for FlyBe.
The initial posting about sacking the ops guy/not operating after fog had lifted was a bit tongue in cheek,but got the boys going.Sorry lads.
But I really want to know about the staff travel policy.
Many of my mates fly for FleBE(Cavok)Ltd,and are themselves amazed that they are not allowed on their own airline using staff travel if economy is full.(Obvioulsy there are the odd occassions when a friendly gate person bends the rules).
But it is written in stone,apparently,that subload staff are only to be unloaded in economy.The aircraft will depart without you ,even if Business is half empty,which is often the case.
I just wanted to know who made this decision and why.What is achieved by this?It surely doesn't foster relations with other carriers,who happily take FlyBe staff in far plusher cabins than they have to offer.

PS.
Has anybody noticed that this smilie :cool: looks like that bloke from that annoying bank advert on the telly ?

[Jobs-a-Goodun]

Minesagrolsh.

Mmmm note the change of tack when suddenly most viewers of this thread don't agree with your initial statements. How we got onto the rebated travel argument i'll never know.

But in response to your comments...I guess you'll choose not to acknowledge the 9 additional flights added to the FlyBE program today which re-patriated some 600 of those delayed passengers.

...and hey, if you don't like FlyBE's staff travel arrangements then quit moaning and fly BA instead, however....if your flight is cancelled just be aware that there may not be an additional flight added so that you may get to your destination.

[Minesagrolsch]

flt l w mitty.
Oh dear,you are upset aren't you.
No,sorry,wasn't in the RAF.
And no nothing about short haul,apart from 4000 hours on 737's.xx

Jobs a G.
The thing is that BA will be pulling off the route soon.It would be nice if Fly Be were a bit more accommodating to staff,when they have the monopoly on the LGW route.
I'm sure your figure of 9 extra flights is correct.
The only extra flights that Guernsey got were the aircraft operating into the island to pick up the normal schedule.
(at least that's what the duty officer told me lunch time when Im bumped into him).
Jersey must have been busy.

[Jobs-a-Goodun]

Well I guess the duty officer was not aware of all the flights then.

BE929/904/905 operated on the LGWGCI route providing and extra 300 seats and BE615 operated SOUGCI and additional 2 sectors later in the afternoon, (unaware of Flt.No's) giving an extra 150 seats on this route. There was an extra EXT-CI-EXT rotation giving 100 seats, 3 extra LGWJER sectors, so another 300seats there and the extra BHXJER rotation giving 200 seats.

I think you would severely struggle to find another airline of a similar size, that has the sort of flexibilty to launch the additonal operation as detailed above.

Why not try being thankful for a change and appreciate the service you have. Some crew members ended up working their rostered days off to help out...perhaps Minesagrolsh, you should tell them that they shouldn't bother next time.

[puddle-jumper]

"The thing is that BA will be pulling off the route soon."

Yep. Think yourself lucky that FlyBe are a little more loyal to the island's than that, otherwise you would be catching the boat to work.

As far as staff travel is concerned - Try writing to our Ops Director instead of here, you might have more luck.

Then again you could always move to Crawley. :D

[Minesagrolsch]

Puddle J.
I totally agree with you.Fly Be have a damn site more loyalty to the islands than BA ever had,and for that I am very grateful.
What I am not so grateful for (along with many other commuters in the same boat) is being left behind (3 times in last 2 months) because econ is full,and business is half empty.
BA,despite their many faults would take YOU,if we had a seat and weight enough.
What makes Fly Be so damn righteous ?
None of my mates who fly for them know why.
Or do you like your staff travel policy ?
I know it is a a decision made by "suits",but it doesn't make much sense.
regards
M'Grolsch

[4Ohm]

You could always try a firm fare ticket - that would stop you from being bumped off "3 times in the last 2 months" which I guess would have been Christmas and New Year.....

[160to4DME]

Stingy git - buy yourself a ticket and stop bl0ody whinging.

Staff travel is a PERK.

If you don't like the conditions placed on that PERK, don't use it....simple really.

[Electric Sky]

With ref to the original topic of this post, and having worked in ops it is often the case that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't! You cannot keep people waiting indefinately and often the job calls for calculated decisions based on probabilities. Passengers, crew and ground staff prefer a firm decision as soon as possible and you cannot legislate for Jersey's notorious eratic weather. Hopefully the comment "FlyBe should sack their ops guy " from someone that does a different job and does not have all of the facts was as claimed, very much tongue in cheek.

ES ;)

[CaptAirProx]

Jobs a Goodun, I would'nt bother wasting any more of your time with him.

He's a bitter individual. The sort of pax that whinge from the start and then get nowhere with the cabin crew or the Captain, they are their own worst enemy.

If you ever see him on the manifest, give me a heads up and I will refuse him gladly!

[Whispering Giant]

Just heard as of 1430z on 30th B.A have cancelled all of their flt's to JER due to the forcast crosswinds - NO SURPRISE their then....
BUT as usual [B] flybe.- british european will carry on operating[B] and carry all of B.A's pax's with the additional revenue that this will us......

[kuningan]

Spent two days trying to get a visitor off Guernsey on flybe - couple of observations; first, the ticketing staff were unfailingly courteous and friendly despite what must have been a long and trying day for them, as for the pax. Second, in terms of weather delays BA seem to give up first by a wide margin, followed by flybe, while Aurigny seem to be first to start up again....possibly aircraft/routes....possibly other factors. Has BA formally announced withdrawal, or is this simple logical conclusion of fleet plans (Gatwick on 737s)?

[Minesagrolsch]

CaptAir Prox.
I am not a bitter individual,as those people that actually know me will verify.
I have bent over backwards to carry staff on the jump seat and massaged figures/dumped freight to get staff on our flights,rather than leave them stranded for years.
Shame our jump seat policy is now more restricted.
I won't bother continuing this anymore either,as nobody can actually answer why FlyBe ban staff from Business.

160 to 4 DME,
I know it is a perk.But when every other airline is quite happy to take staff in whatever cabin has seats,why are FlyBe so rigid and difficult in their rules ?
Their staff are charming,as are the crews,it's just the suits that make inflexible decisions that I don't agree with.
I know I can pay full fare.But that's not the point.
Let's face it,you guys happily travel happily on longahul inc BA using staff travel,and I bet you don't refuse Club/First if that is all that's available.
Final question to any Dash drivers.
Is the BE 621 SOU/GCI at 1050 permanently cancelled on a Sunday or was it just today,02 Feb ?
(Turned up at SOU airport this morning,having been delayed from the USA and stayed with a mate.Went to the Aviance desk to be told by a lovely young girl that the flight had been cancelled,but she had no idea why.)

kuningan,
with regard to BA on the GCI/LGW route,no decision has been met.
The plan is to operate 733's into GCI when the ATR finishes,but this still depends on the route review due in Spring.

[Minesagrolsch]

capt Air Prox,

"If you ever see him on the manifest, give me a heads up and I will refuse him gladly!".

Big Powerful Captain,you.

[surely not]

I suggest that the title of this topic is incorrect as many postees have pointed out that Fly.be only cancel when there is no alternative available to them which is the opposite to the impression given in the title.

I do not work for Fly.be but I have had considerable experience of how they react when there are wx probs and apart from a reluctance use the phone as opposed to the telex they do a very good job, far better than BA.

:D

[CaptAirProx]

Minesagrolsch,

Nah, I'm not a big powerful captain, just a captain that doesn't like having bolshy, unprofessional "professionals" in the business slagging off their fellow workers., and then expecting to be helped handover fist.

You may get away with "bolshy" in BA, but not where I come from.

[split duty]

To those who are reading this you will note that this is my first posting on pprune.

I have read with great interest the comments of a wide and varied spectrum of aviation proffessionals all giving their opinion as to the conduct of the ops guy who had the unfortunate pleasure of working on shift when both GCI and JER were below landing limits from 0800 on the Sunday to 1700 on Monday.

You may now see where this is heading.........

I was the Ops Guy in question.

I stand by the decisions made on the day with the information I had available, the crews I had at my disposal, the aircraft available and after consulting with the passenger services departments at BHX,LGW,LCY,EXT,BHD,GLA,EDI,IOM,LBA!and JER and GCI the decisions made to cancel the sectors was made with the interest of all cencerned. All pasengers should have been made aware of problems we were encountering in the Channel Islands and of the four or five replans which were put in place over the whole period which were made to accommodate them.
If I have upset someone be cancelling a flight I can only appologise but given the same circumstances I would probably make the same decisions again.
As all Ops Controllers know, there comes a time in a shift when all avenues of re-scheduling, aircraft changing and favour asking expires and some part of the schedule has to take a hit.
We dont know who, when or where this will be but it deos happen. When it deos someone allways feels that it is them who are the unfortunate ones who are being victimised by the carrier.
It will happen again and lets hope next time the gentleman in question is on the right side of the sea when it deos then we humble ops controllers can concentrate on getting the job done to the best of our ability.

[Minesagrolsch]

Split Duty.
Please accept my full apologies for starting this thread,and having a dig.
I really did mean it to be "tongue in cheek",but,as usual with pprune,it gives ammo to others to get stuck in and disect every word.It then becomes a heated Nigel bashing session.How original ?
I fully realize that it isn't that simple to have crews available when there are such delays,even when fog does lift unexpectedly.
Unfortuneatly,nobody on pprune actually can be bothered to answer anything.They are too busy slagging everyone else off.
I engaged a bit of thread creep,and enquired about why FlyBe have such a rigid and restrictive staff travel policy.
I was not having a go at their staff at all.They are all polite and helpful.But it is the rules imposed by Fly Be that are extemely unhelpful.
But in over 20 posts since I posed the question,not one person has given any indication as to why FlyBe don't accept any staff in Business when econ is full.I thought it was a sensible question.But all I have got in return is helpful comments like


"Stingy git,pay full fare"

"Staff travel is a perk"

etc etc.

I know that,but that is not the point.

Obviously all these FlyBe guys are quite happy that they leave staff behind when they have empty seats up front,otherwise perhaps even one person would have actually said something about it,instead of using it as an excuse to get stuck in.


capt air prox.
Very kind of you to call me unprofessional.
Nice that you judge people that you do not know.
(Is that why you failed the interview?)
I can assure you that I am nothing of the sort.
I'm not slagging off fellow workers.
Ok,the initial post was a bit heavy,but it was meant tongue in cheek,and I have apologise to the guy in question,above.
I don't expected to be helped hand over fist.Just the same amount as I would help you or anyone else.
I just think it unhelpful (along with ALL other commuters who use FlyBe,inc many of YOUR colleagues) that FlYBE chooses to ban staff from travelling when econ is full,even when Business is empty.The ground staff are embarassed by it and most of the pilots (with the very odd exception) think it's crazy.
You,and everyone else who has commented,obviously think this is great,as nobody has said anything in it's defence.
If virtually all other airlines can accept staff when they have a seat (in whatver cabin),then why can't FlyBe ?
No,I don't expect an answer,just more childish crap along the lines of "Pay full fare,don't use staff trav etc".
It really is very sad when people just add to this thread by all having a go.Makes you feel better does it ?
(Ok,I am also guilty of this as well,but I admit that and apologise to anyone that may be offended)
Over the years I must have helped hundreds of staff travel that definitely would not have done so without my intervention.I have done this for no other reason than it is the done thing (in BA,at least) to help our colleagues whenever you can.
But you (and others who have contributed here) seem to think that I am asking for the earth.When ?
I would just like FlyBe to be like every other airline.
But you obviously do not use staff travel and do not expect to travel in other seat but economy.
It can be arranged.

By the way,Danny summed it up in another thread somewhere.
Why is it that everyone not in BA think that all BA pilots are bolshy ?You lot love to "Nigel bash" and tar everyone with the same brush.Have a look around first before you do.
Right CAPT air prox.I've got to go and be very unprofessional,assuming that I get helped hand over fist to get on a flight.
Thanks so much for all you help.
Your views are well balanced (must be that chip on each shoulder)

[surely not]

This is my stab at why the front end, on many airlines, sometimes goes empty despite 'staff' pax being available to fill the seats, potential reasons for you Minesagrolsch:

1. There may be insufficient catering for the additional staff pax
2. Cabin crew do not like to be put in a situation whereby some pax get full service and others do not.
3. Believe it or not, the full fare chaps and chapesses get mightily peeved if the cabin fills up with non full fare passengers. They feel they have paid quite a bit extra for the additional service level and resent what they percieve as free loaders. Like it or not this is true, in another incarnation I had to deal with many a complaint from the full fare pax re this.
4. No matter how discreet, it is inevitable that the staff pax will become known, either through lack of food served or casual conversation.

I think point 3 is the most valid as it is protecting the business persons product. If it isn't full, then they get a bit more room.

It is nice to be upgraded and I've been fortunate for it to happen on the odd occassion but I certainly wouldn't rely on it.

[cumulo-granite]

...and I'm certain that this staff travel situation has been exacerbated by the recent restrictions imposed on jump-seat use. I'm sure that, before these, the business class pax could get their extra room and the sub-load staff would get a lift on the jump-seat.

Next time it happens, count to ten and blame Bin-Laden

:rolleyes:

[Uncle Monty]

In terms if service, there is precious little difference between flybe business and economy class anyway. They are both pretty poor.

You are hardly swapping BA economy for some lie-flat beds on an 12 hour flight to Hong Kong.

[Minesagrolsch]

Guys.
Thanks for these proper replies.Phew.
Firstly to answer "surely not":
"
1. There may be insufficient catering for the additional staff pax
2. Cabin crew do not like to be put in a situation whereby some pax get full service and others do not.
3. Believe it or not, the full fare chaps and chapesses get mightily peeved if the cabin fills up with non full fare passengers. They feel they have paid quite a bit extra for the additional service level and resent what they percieve as free loaders. Like it or not this is true, in another incarnation I had to deal with many a complaint from the full fare pax re this.
4. No matter how discreet, it is inevitable that the staff pax will become known, either through lack of food served or casual conversation. "


1.Good point.But I know that sometimes when BA upgrade pax,whether staff or pax,the CC tell them that they may only get an economy meal.Most staff just want to get on.They are not interested in a meal.Certainly not on a 30min puddle jump.
It's the seat to get to home/work I'm after,not the upgrade from no snack to a very basic one.
2.Another very valid point.depends on whether the cc would expect the same if they flew with an other carrier.
3.If staff are upgraded into ,say Club or First,they are only done so if suitably dressed,and are expected to behave and act like thay should be there.
Ugrading someone into FlyBe's business cabin is hardly the same a s taking staff into BA's Club of First.
Let's face it,on the 146,the seat is the same,it just pulls out an inch or so,and a lovely curtain is drawn ro separate the cabins.Hardly the same a s staff on BA Club having a flat-bed sleeper seat etc.BUt BA will upgrade YOU if all other canins are full.They won't dump you the other side of the world.Good job FlyBe only operate locally.
4.Not necessarily.If they just act sensibly,then there is no need for others to know.

Unvce Monty.
Totally agree with you.

cumulo-granite

Likewise.
Although often FlyBe have 4 cabin crew and only 3 J's's so one CC sits in FD for take and landing

[kuningan]

The last few times I've flown GCI/LGW/GCI there hasn't BEEN a business class....steerage from 1A to 22F...

[Minesagrolsch]

kuningan.
If it's getting a bit academic,you could always leave.
I believ that FlyBe sometimes have no Business class at weekends,but certainly they have two cabins Mon to fri,even if one has eight spare seats all the time.
Thanks for your input,academic or not.

[kuningan]

Minesagrolsch...I've been travelling mid week mid day...both directions...no business class - are you referring to the first & last flights of the day?

[AOG007]

Grolsch Drinker.........

Firstly I am confused as to why you can't understand how people will become annoyed by some of your posts. I have read through these posts with great interest, and can see people's annoyance, and understand the reasons.

I think that any critisism you have come in for is mostly fair. Maybe not for what you have said, more for the way it was said.

Tongue in Cheek it certainly was not. A personal attack of the Ops Controller it did appear to be. For which I admire the Controller for introducing themself, and sticking by every decision he/she made. I also applaud you apologising publically.

Your comments to Flybe's staff travel policy have however been a little bit blinkered. BA staff travel is generally very good, and other airlines do also tend to treat BA staff well. However, Flybe obviously restrict Staffies in Business for a reason. And that is their perogative. Let's face it, FLybe are (I believe?) profitable, which cannot be said of BA. As a result, BA are desperate for any money they can get, and a good policy this is. However, BA do not always fill Business if Economy is full, and trust me when I say that Flybe are not alone in their policy of staff travel. You also commented on the time of onload for some Flybe flights. BA are no angels at this either, and many a time have I had to run like crazy from T4 Staff Check-in to the gate due to late onload.

You are an employee of BA, whom I believe are still one of the top airlines in the world. You are priveledged, believe me.

This is not another attack, just an attempt at trying to help you understand why people say the things they, in the manner they say them.

AOG007 :cool:

[77]

I have just read all the threads in this topic.
I must say that Minesagrolsch was a bit foolish for starting it in the first place.
He has allowed a platform for self-centred individuals such as Capt AirProx to show how jolly important they think they are in their own(small) world.
His initial "attack" probably was meant "tongue in cheek",but once in print,it is difficult to gauge this.
At least he has apologised to those that he may have offended.
But I do have to agree with him about staff travel.
BA do help staff when they can.They are also now profitable,if that has any bearing.

[nick99]

Yeah.Give the guy some slack.
He has apologised to those that were offended.
What more do you ******s want.Blood ?

[hapzim]

Staff use of business class can be made a lot easier by business being loaded into rows 1/2 leave row 3 as a buffer, if required fold up the centre seat and you can fit SIX extra pax in. The cabin crew are then not put in the position of having meals for one pax and not the other in the same row.

Staff do not get a meal or free drinks but do get a seat behind the business people.

Also if shock horror extra full fare pax arrive as the flight closes,you have the option of easily subsituting the staff pax.

It wont effect the C of G , but it will BOOST morale.

We all know if it is full we wait for the next one.

:p :p :p