View Full Version : Single Pilot Operation !!!
From Daily Telegraph 30 July.
Passengers look on as pilots fight over flight
An Egyptian pilot and his co-pilot brawled in front of 130 passengers waiting to take off in Cairo yesterday.
Capt. *al* flew alone to Sharm -el-Sheikh after evicting his co-pilot * * from the aircraft owned by Egyptian firm Midwest.
The fight erupted when the co-pilot asked for the flight schedule. The pilot is said to have replied "It’s none of your business". - AFP
:eek:
Zuludead
30th Jul 2001, 18:05
Did the Co-pilot then try to grab the controls when airborne, switch the fuel off and chant all the way to the ground??? :rolleyes:
LAVDUMPER
30th Jul 2001, 18:30
Spot on Zuludead! Your comment will certainly raise some eye-brows, but I am sure a lot of people are thinking along those lines. I wonder how the Egyptian government would explain this incident - perhaps the Israelis were the root cause of the argument... Let's blame someone else!!!!
Any idea what type of aircraft was involved? Is CRM commonly used in that part of the world? Evidently not. Next time I'm in Egypt I'll opt for the bus (probably not much safer)!
village flyer
30th Jul 2001, 18:41
oops..
[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: village flyer ]
village flyer
30th Jul 2001, 18:46
Lavdumper,
opt for the bus? - having been that warrior it is an experience that I would rather forget. A procession beginning with a jeep loaded full of nutters with AK-47's does not offer any reasurance of a forthcomming safe trip.
VF
Vfrpilotpb
30th Jul 2001, 19:50
My old man said you could never trust one of em, sounds like he was right! :eek:
Looking at other threads makes me wonder if he did the same CRM course as the CEO of Ryanair. :eek:
Lee Dingedge
30th Jul 2001, 23:52
Best thing to do with a co-pilot if he argues - leave him behind. Who needs one anyway?
Brad737
31st Jul 2001, 00:36
Even in the high tech world of the new millenium some cultures persist in a prehistoric state. Weird weird things happen in third world cockpits. :eek:
SID the STAR
31st Jul 2001, 00:56
Remember that Egypt Air B-767 that went down over the Atlantic, well,well, i wonder why.....
Blacksheep
31st Jul 2001, 03:52
Third World Cockpit? What's a third world cockpit?
Come on, seriously; I'd really like to know... :confused:
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
go with the flow
31st Jul 2001, 03:53
Everything about this post is perhaps best left to Mr Un Said. :D
N380UA
31st Jul 2001, 10:38
If the flight attendant is in bed with the captain after the flight, is it work or is it pleasure?
---------------
Pleasure! If it were work the F/O had to do it!
But seriously, aren't there any rules and laws concerning airline operations in Egypt? 130 PAX sounds like A320 or B737.
I wouldn't doubt the pilot's ability to fly although I think the label "Does not play well with others" might apply here.
safety_worker
31st Jul 2001, 10:56
Oh Dearey Me! This is a rumour thread, so here goes a hearsay translation from an Arabic Newspaper.
The Capt and F/o were having a physical fight. He off loaded the F/o who went to Ops Centre and narrated the story. The Capt in the meantime departed Cairo :eek: for Sharm-al-sheikh. (probably an A320/A300 as it was supposed to go onto Milan). ATC managed to call the aircraft and asked him to return to Cairo. Apparently, Capt ignored ATC and proceeded to S-a-s. There he was reprimanded and is now being charged by the authorities. ;) (kidnapping, Hijacking, Regulation violations..etc.)
Aparently, Mr. Al Bond has lost his licence to kill? :D
Are 'aviationists' there aware of regulations, CRM, Psychoanalytical testing?
I always wondered how one could fly a modern day jet, solo :D ?
Stratocaster
31st Jul 2001, 19:58
This will make a great example in future CRM courses !
;)
After all, CRM is like time: it has been invented by the Whites... for the Whites !
:D
Although the Egyptians were building pyramids while Europeans and Americans were still living in the woods (or so), now they're having a really hard time with some of the basics of CRM. Down there you don't question the captain's authority, period !
Remember the fight between the captain and the F/O of a Turkish Airlines A340 ? They weren't on the ground anymore, but at FL3-something. I think they were fighting for a chick (F/A ?).
This is just a cultural issue, so maybe we should pay more attention and respect to their problems and encourage their efforts, don't you think ?
Joking is okay, but let's not push it too far. I wish the F/O could tell us what really happened... if it ever happened.
:D
AAL_Silverbird
31st Jul 2001, 23:53
Dear Sky9
Could you give the URL to the Daily Telegraph colum?
Thank you
1stspotter
2nd Aug 2001, 02:27
The aircraft involved was probably an Airbus A310 as Midwest operates this type of aircraft.
The do a lot of subchartering besides flying tourists. For example for Tunis Air.
homer j
2nd Aug 2001, 04:27
I hope nobody takes offence at this reply, but the amazing, (sadly, very real) content, made me laugh my a** off!!
The "Family Fortunes" TV show format is, I'm sure, understood just about everywhere.
The stupid responses by stupid family members to simple questions are legend. In fact, the UK magazine "Private Eye", regularly publishes a list of the most recent "Howlers"!
Here is the "King" of unbelievable answers...
Les Dennis, the UK gameshow host says, "One hundred people were surveyed, and the top five answers are on the board, fastest on the buzzer takes control of the game. In the survey we asked, - 'Name a dangerous race?'..
....What was the fastest response by a stupid family member?...... The Grand National?... The Monaco Grand Prix?...The Paris-Dakar Rally?... The Whitbread Round the World Yacht Race?..........
No, "The Arabs".
:rolleyes:
Techman
2nd Aug 2001, 04:59
It is encouraging to see that prejudice is no longer part of these forums.
I also find the (healthy) widespread sceptisism regarding newspaper articles, that has become a standard in posts, a sign of true progress.
Techman http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/angel3.gif
rsoman
2nd Aug 2001, 07:26
As per Egypt Air schedules this is
flight MS805 operating CAI SSH MXP with an
A321.
autobrakemedium
2nd Aug 2001, 13:45
One has to be very careful.
I am not saying that this applies in this case, just sounds like the captain was the sort of captain that the UK suffered from all those years ago.....
I think that it is generally agreed that there are some races that have a culture that is not suited to flying aeroplanes. However we are not allowed o say this because it is construed as being racist.
Whilst the accusers go on accusing, the issue will not be tackled and aeroplanes will still keep crashing.
How can this be sorted?
Landing Gear
2nd Aug 2001, 14:36
If you want to get a taste how Middle East student pilots fly, nip up to Cranfield tune into TWR 134.92 or APR 122.85 and listen to the mayhem they cause poor old ATC, who really do a great job given the EXTREME circumstances with these pilots.
Some of these ME pilots have taxied without ATC permission, taken off without ATC permission and caused problems in the circuit like going from number 4 in the circuit to number 1 in a flash.
It makes me wonder what is behind their logic and common sense.
One thing is for sure, I'm staying well away from flying on any Arabic Airlines.
Cheers,
LG
AAL_Silverbird
Try http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/07/30/wpilo30.xml
Thats what I did to find it for you although I did get it out of the paper version.null (http://null)
Amok Air
4th Aug 2001, 07:53
We must live pretty sheltered lives.
Having had the opportunity to both work with and train many students right out of Beirut, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Dar es Salaam and others, we have yet to come across anyone who has caused this incredible "havoc". There are cultural differences, to be sure, and perhaps the attitude in the cockpit is more of a generational difference there, but the young men we have trained here in Canada are every bit as courteous, intelligent, and perhaps even more motivated than most who attend our training center.
Seems there's a couple of necks in here that have a distinctly rosy glow . . . .
Doctor Cruces
4th Aug 2001, 08:39
Stratocaster,
Have to disagree with you on your statement re it being a cultural issue. Flight Safety is NOT a cultural issue.
By this reckoning, the recent genocides in Africa and former Yugoslavia could be excused as culture issues.
That sort of thinking is a slippery slope towards the downwards spiral.
Doc C.
Stratocaster
4th Aug 2001, 10:26
Whaz'up, Doc ?
I didn't mean to say FS is a cultural issue, and I don't think it is. That's quite stupid actually. I just say that it's more difficult for some cultures to stick to CRM guidelines.
It's not always easy for us (Europeans/North Americans, etc.), so it's even worse in other parts of the world where how old you are is more important than how much you know (including about yourself).
Is that OK with you, Doc ?
checkhauler
4th Aug 2001, 13:00
>>>Some of these ME pilots have taxied without ATC permission, taken off without ATC permission and caused problems in the circuit like going from number 4 in the circuit to number 1 in a flash.<<<
Sounds like BA at MIA...
HomerSimpson
4th Aug 2001, 15:40
Well Well Well. I think that Four Forces should have used this CRM issue as an example as bad CRM than that of Hamrahs! I bet that it raised a few eyebrows from the flight attendants when the F/O was off loaded!
(Edited as I dont know how to use UBB or cut and paste properly!)
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/Itchscratch.gif
[ 04 August 2001: Message edited by: HomerSimpson ]
[ 04 August 2001: Message edited by: HomerSimpson ]
Brad737
4th Aug 2001, 20:55
My my, how politically correct we've become. Fact is flight safety and CRM do not exist in a vacuum are very much cultural issues. Of course the company's culture is most defining but how do you separate societal culture and company culture in some third world airlines? If your country advocates a strict conformist attitude, then how are you to think outside the box when a situation isn't covered by the checklist? If society tells you to respect age and rank without question, how are you to question your Captain? Can your birth caste be an issue in the cockpit? I'm sure many of you non-pc ppruners can think of other examples of society intruding in the cockpit.
Doctor Cruces
4th Aug 2001, 21:16
Stratocaster,
Obviously got the wrong end of your stick, for which I apologise, and yes it's OK by me!!!
Doc C.
Farside
6th Aug 2001, 08:06
I think that this subject lowers itself in the land of sickly racial slurs.I can firmly state that I worked for ten years in the middle east and for once have to find any person who has more flying and management skills then my old Chief Pilot on the 747, (F.R. for the old Saudi drivers) And let me assure you that he was not the only excellent Saudi around. So let's stop this racial nonsense and stick to the facts, realising that you have jerks and idiots in every race.