MDAs and the surrounding areas

[Marconi Boy]

Whats are your views on the up and coming major changes to the UK airspace as of March this year?

Do you like what you see?

or

Have you got any better ideas?

[BDiONU]

The HUGE MDA in the North Sea seems to be an enormous burden on civil ATC. The airspace changes are complex (largest change ever) and expensive (circa 13 million).
The only possible 'good' thing might be that the military become more proactive in actually 'managing' their danger areas, rather than keeping them active until the very last minute before they decide they don't need them. At least there will be an Airspace Management Cell charged with chasing up the mil to give back the airspace they don't use so civil can move more traffic expeditiously.

[hatsoff]

It's a mixed bag.
It gives the Mil the training area it wanted and gives some protection to Newcastle traffic.

The route cost implications for many operators will be interesting.

[bids]

13 million quid! Does that include getting Claxby fixed so that the guys in the new scottish sector will actually see the traffic up there? :eek:

[BDiONU]

Not including the Claxby 'problemette'!!!! Thats a new one since they put the radome on to keep the rain out.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

We have all seen the changes and can only wait and see if they work, however no matter how much we are all ready for it, the boys in the fast pointy things will still be unable to remain inside them!! thats if they are even aware of the changes :rolleyes:

[whowhenwhy]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, think I'm the only mil ATCO here at the moment so I'll try and break the habit of a lifetime and tread carefully. It strikes me, and rather a lot of my brethren that the non-blue suited controllers out there are actually getting quite a good deal with the new sector 33 implementation. Yes we're getting those lovely big MDA's, and yes I believe that I'm right in saying (unless it's changed again), that someone obviously not quite right in the head has made the fighter controllers the controlling authority; however, you guys are getting a lot more controlled airspace out of it, including the 'fun fair ride for all airway' P18, and that is what you wanted. One question though, is anyone out there at all happy with this idea that our airships have come up with for sharing Y70 and allowing us to general-handle fast jets in class A? Answers on the back of a postcard with lots of double-sided sticky tape to..................:eek:

[BDiONU]

Think you'll find that although the scope dope's will be the 'controlling' authority they will be considerably more accountable for the use of the MDA's. With the Flexible Use of Airspace concept comes an Airspace Management Cell run by NATS flow/traffic management and they will be very keen to claw back airspace which isn't going to be used. Although there may appear to be considerable benefits to civil with the current airspace construction, there are considerable penalties on certain routes which have to go the long way round to avoid the MDA's.
MDA's = Managed Danger Areas. :)

[remedial boy]

This promises to be an interesting time for all concerned. The FCs will get what they want in dedicated areas; the civvies get more controlled airspace and the chance to use the MDAs when inactive, and it should be safer for Newcastle traffic. So obviously with all these good things potentially happening there's bound to be a massive spanner in the works just round the corner.

[Bullseye Check]

MB you Delta:) ,

Hows things? From an E3 perspective having controlled in europe and seeing how the system works there. I think it will work very well. They apply a very similar system however civilian traffic is allowed to transit through but only when coordinated through ourselves. Its very simple to apply and their are very few problems. So bring it on!!

ps Has anybody thought about our new orbit areas?
:eek:

[Pie Man]

BC

As of 20 Mar it's UK3 RIP, but the other areas remain the same.

Regards

PM

[Scott Voigt]

MDA = Managed Danger Areas.....

Gee, all this time I thought that was class B <G>...

regards

Scott

[SpotterFC]

Apologies for the OT post, but as one of the aforementioned scope dopes - what is wrong with Claxby; it came back - it went away again a bit unexpectedly. One of my IDOs is most upset as its his 'favourite' radar. (And they call me a sad spotter!):p

[Marconi Boy]

To whom it may concern

According to the new maps, UK3 Remains.

:)

[Dropped Chinagraph]

Orbit Areas - UK 4 Lobe 1 goes - everything else remains the same - for now!

The MDAs are not good news for mil ATC. The UARs route all around them and, as we have found in the sim at Bournemouth, getting through the Newcastle area with OAT, especially above FL 245, will be a nightmare. Civil traffic comes at you from about 8 different directions and there is simply nowhere to go when D323A is active. OAT transits have not been thought about. The MDAs are great for ASACS and the air defenders but will result in restrictions and less expeditious routeings for other mil traffic. In the middle air, getting traffic in and out of Leeming to the north is a nightmare.

I for one am very glad that on March 20th a large portion of mil metal will be somewhere hot so that we can come to terms with our aerial spaghetti junction slow time!:(

[Scott Voigt]

How about just let the civil ATCOs work the military aircraft when they are not in special areas. Works GREAT!

regards

Scott

[Findo]

No thanks Scott. We are not exactly sitting around looking for trade. Our sectors demand our full attention and the RAF ATCOs do a great job looking after their own and some of ours as well when they have the capacity.

It is always difficult to get you guys to understand the tiny size of the UK and the density of traffic we generate.

[Pie Man]

MB & DC

If UK 3 remains in tact someone has forgotten to tell our civilian cousins as amendment to UK AIP effective on 20 Mar 03 states:

"Other Activities of a Dangerous Nature - E-3 Orbit Areas - UK Orbir Area 3 withdrawn"

ENR 5-3-3

Regards

PM

[Marconi Boy]

Just to note, Im sure I saw the new "SAMPLE" Onroute chart and this did show that UK3 remains to the N of Lincs.

PS: As this subject has not been really commented on by many ATC/ASACS or our Civilian counterparts and yes we know that many of the areas may become that little bit quieter "Military" soon. Your views would still be very interesting.

PPS: How have you worked the sim? Has it been based on a full normal days traffic, both in and out of the UK and included the Military stuff?

[Pie Man]

Hi MB,

We got the sample charts yesterday from AIDU and UK3 is not there. The following link is to a scan of the relevant piece of airspace.

http://jimbo.port5.com/scan.jpg

Regards

PM