Blues At Brize [Archive]

X Blunty

24th Jan 2003, 18:08

All joking aside - I understand why some threads on sensitive topics might be removed - but the afore mentioned thread was no more than aircrew venting their spleen and blunties enjoying rubbing salt in the wounds. Despite some individuals getting quite wound up over the issue, the thread was no more than the banter that most of us enjoy. Surely the Stn Cdr at Brize didn't go to the trouble of finding out who started the thread and ordering him to delete it... if he did that has serious implications for the more controversial threads posted on this forum.

Somebody explain what is going on please...

KENNYR

24th Jan 2003, 20:38

Tigs, I'm ex Army Air Corps, living in Canada. Thats why I could call the Station Commander "a horses ass". I thought that this topic was very important, as it shows all ranks at Brize what the new Staish is capable of. I sincerely hope that the original poster has not been censured in any way by the Staish as a result of his free speech. There are serious ramifications if he has!

Green Bottle 2

24th Jan 2003, 21:52

I would be most disturbed if an individual had pressure placed on him to delete a thread because it made a staish uncomfortable. Censorship has a habit of backfiring.

Whilst I think all would agree opsec is essential, in this case the right to disagree and debate the issue is a fundamental tenet of a democratic society.

So I would encourage all those who contributed to the original thread to post again here. I think this thread is much less likely to be deleted.

GB2

FJJP

25th Jan 2003, 09:45

Since Pprune became a forum where serving individuals made comment about current Service issues, you can bet your life that the plods and over-sensitive execs search for clues as to the identity of individuals making the criticisms. Was there not a case where a guy at Kinloss gave away too many clues, was identified and hammered? (Maybe someone can tell us the full story on that one).

The Staish at Brize only has to tell his execs that he is on a witch-hunt to find the originator for it to sweep thru the base - more especially if he intimates that he is close to finding the name. That would guarantee that the individual deletes the original post pronto. In the early days of my time contributing to this forum, a comment was made by an individual who gave away so much in his comment that I worked out his name within hours. When I told him, he deleted his post immediately, changed his nom-de-plume and was very much more careful in the future.

The Pprune Moderators are a sensible bunch - it takes a lot for them to pull a topic. So far I have only seen them do it twice - once on security grounds and once when an individual became grossly offensive. The BZN uniform topic was never offensive or controversial. I hope we can get an answer, even if it is thru a third party.

[Now all it needs is for ADUX to post for the complete set - private joke!]

Biggus

25th Jan 2003, 20:30

Here is a conspiracy theory for you, PERHAPS THE STN CDR AT BRIZE GOT SOMEBODY TO START THE THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Hear me out. Stn Cdr's are political animals, with 2 eyes on getting themselves promoted. To do this they have to get themselves noticed, to stand out from the crowd. There is no such thing as bad publicity etc. So perhaps the Stn Cdr got a pal to start the thread, knowing it would come to the attention of the senior neddies and highlight his strong willed approach, even in the face of some opposition, etc, etc. However, things started to get out of hand, the Stn Cdr changed his mind and got his mate to pull the plug.

Plausible?

Alternatively the Stn Cdr has just upset all his aircrew, they complained in one of the few ways they could, the originators name got out and he got a huge bollocking and was told to withdraw it!

Take your pick.

The truth is out there.....

KENNYR

25th Jan 2003, 21:17

Plausible? Yes....Likely?...No. The only way we will find out is if the original poster will come forward and tell us why he/she pulled this very interesting topic. Maybe the Staish could come on and let us know the reasons behind his stupidity!

Well, Mr Station Commander........do you have any gonads??

UncleFester

26th Jan 2003, 16:57

Fine about deleting a topic...but why delete all the replies?
Or was it all a bit too close to home? MAybe we'll never no, on the other hand,.. who say's navigator's have got gonads?......;) Only kidding, some of my best drinking mates were navs, sad loss to the truckie fleet, less people to buy the beers!!:cool: :D

RubiC Cube

27th Jan 2003, 12:37

Picture the scene at a secret airbase in deepest Wiltshire in the 1990s. Harry Staish calls in his PA....

"Ha, Sgt X, I'm looking for an initiative that will get my name known. Any suggestions?"

"How about making everybody come to work in blues?"

"Brilliant idea!"

Fast forward to 2002. Harry Staish at BZN talking to his 2nd wife...

"I'm looking for an initiative that will get my name known. Any suggestions?"

"How about making everybody come to work in blues? It worked for my Boss at Lyneham"

"Brilliant idea!"

kbf1

27th Jan 2003, 14:34

Just before we go calling Mulder and Scully has anyone thought that the post may have been deleted by the originator accidentally?

Now there's the start of a conspiracy..... :p

Biggus

27th Jan 2003, 18:02

Rubic Cube

I think you will find that the Brize Stn Cdr is no longer married to the ex-Lyneham Stn Cdr's PA. Very brief marriage, but therein lies another tale!!!

reynoldsno1

27th Jan 2003, 18:57

And you can add similar conversations at secret air bases in the 80's, 70's, 60's.... yaaaaawwwwwn, there seems to be some sort of pattern emerging here....

Wee Weasley Welshman

27th Jan 2003, 19:14

I just had a peek in the belching humming Containment Chamber we keep in the bowels of PPRuNe HQ for dangerous threads.

The thread in question is not there.

Which tells me that it was not moved by anyone at PPRuNe HQ - we don't delete. So it looks like the original poster deleted his post which also kills the thread.

WWW

mutleyfour

27th Jan 2003, 19:54

So much for "power to the people"!

The Gorilla

27th Jan 2003, 21:21

Could the thread have been killed by the originator because it became PERSONAL?? As indeed this one is becoming!!

It's fine to berate him for his policies, but not for his personal life.
Chill out people..:o

Biggus

27th Jan 2003, 21:39

Gorilla

If your comment was partially directed at me I did not "berate his personel life". I merely commented that I believed he was no longer married, when Rubic Cube referred to a fictional conversation between him and his wife. I could be wrong in my belief, I am sure his martital status is common knowledge at Brize.

If a chap is divorced it does not make him any more or less of a man in my eyes. Indeed, given the stress I anticipate being placed on my marriage in the next 6 months I could end up joining the ranks of the divorced!!!!!

The aim of my comment was to inform, NOT JUDGE. It was for that very reason that I DID NOT DISCUSS ANY DETAILS OF HIS PERSONAL LIFE BEYOND A SIMPLE STATEMENT OF WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE A WELL KNOWN FACT!!

Training Risky

27th Jan 2003, 22:58

Back to "Blues at BZN"

Is this really true? Do you guys actually drive in wearing blues and change at work?!:eek:

RubiC Cube

28th Jan 2003, 08:52

Sorry, I was only putting two and two together from the previous thread and making six! No slur intended on his personal life, more a failed attempt to be funny about who wears the trousers.

kbf1

28th Jan 2003, 10:51

I just had a peek in the belching humming Containment Chamber we keep in the bowels of PPRuNe HQ

I don't think we wish to hear about Danny's dietary habits thank you.

L J R

29th Jan 2003, 20:54

I know of one RAAF and one RNZAF base that was told to do same in the early 80s. A Mirage pilot was seen leaving his jet after transitting Tasman sea wearing his pyjamas so that he could go directly to the bar from the flight line after said journey.

Come to think of it , the whole RAAF was put on such a silly rule on two occasions in the semi recent past.

MrBernoulli

30th Jan 2003, 09:09

I am willing to bet that the original poster (the name is already forgotten) was leant on by an exec on a threat from further up the chain. Thats why the thread was deleted by the originator.

Always_broken_in_wilts

30th Jan 2003, 10:39

I think it must be more sinister than that MrB........have you noticed nobody from bzn has put his "job on the line":p to keep this thread going:eek:

It seems Big Brother is alive and kicking and living in OMQ's in Oxon.................please please please don't send the J there :(

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

KENNYR

30th Jan 2003, 13:03

Well folks, it looks like the Station Commander at Brize Norton has no gonads! Either that or his spying little toady (or Exec) has not informed him of this thread. For once, ABIW, I have to agree with you, it certainly would appear that the guys/gals at Brize have been told to shut up and not post on this topic, but because of what threat? I urge the original poster to send me a private message or e-mail me with your comments. I swear to you that it will go no further than my eyes! I just need to know, its like an itch you can,t reach!!

HeckSparecrew

30th Jan 2003, 14:17

In reply to Training Risky's question.

No they don't have to drive to work in blues. The rule is, if you are coming to work to fly or sim, you can wear the glorious growbag. For all other occasions you have to wear the Blunty Impersonation Kit.

The reason for the the rule is obvious and logical. It is designed for harry staish to look good in the eyes of his superiors, thereby getting him promoted early.

All at Brize support his brave stand against the perenial slipping of standards by aircrew wearing hideous growbags all the time. It is hoped his stand is recoqnised early for its inspirational nature.

That way he will get promoted, be posted and they can get someone in who is interested in the job not the trivia!!!!!

The Gorilla

30th Jan 2003, 14:49

Heck

He didn't get where he is today by not being interested in the trivia!

:eek: :ooh:

mutleyfour

30th Jan 2003, 16:04

It all seems very sensible to me! ;) := ;)

X Blunty

30th Jan 2003, 18:32

If whoever deleted the original thread, or rather whoever it was who dictated that it should be deleted, had let it run its course, the banter would have ground to a halt and the disgust at the Staish's new policy would have become little more than crewroom whinges. After all how many jibes can the blunties make about aircrew being too fat to fit into their blues or too tight to buy new kit and conversely how many jibes can aircrew make about blunties being jealous, bitter and twisted? And how many times can we all say that this was a misguided if not idiotic policy decision. However, in deleting the original thread this subject and the conspiracy theories surrounding it will (I hope) run and run.

Maybe 'the powers that be' might see that they are not all powerful and that their realm of authority does not stretch as far as they like to think.

Whipping Boy's SATCO

30th Jan 2003, 18:45

Does the same rule apply to the Rocks, TCW and PTS guys when they are not doing their own brand of rufty-tufty?

PS. It wasn't that long ago that most of you guys flew in blue anyway; has there also been a change on this front?

SALAD DODGER

30th Jan 2003, 21:44

Do you think they could get away with it at Lyneham, or a FJ base? Why cant we just have one rule for everyone and be done with it.

Is there anyone out there who thinks this is a good thing, or would prefer to fly in Blues?

Big Cheese1

30th Jan 2003, 23:39

I may be wrong, but surely with matters dealing with uniform, that should be dealt with by the SWO?

Top Bunk Tester

31st Jan 2003, 08:27

I've been very sad and looked all through the recent SROs for BZN and cannot find any reference to this at all. If anybody can shed any light on the published SRO Ser No it would help. Or could it be that it was word of mouth at morning prayers so that if it proved to be a really contentious issue then those responsible could deny any knowledge................

It's a conspiracy:cool:

Edited for sp. must work harder at school

FJJP

31st Jan 2003, 09:25

BC1 - you are right in one sense; the SWO does deal with uniform matters in that he enforces the policy and advises execs.

However, if the CO decides on a policy like the one at BZN, the SWO would not get involved to any great extent, except in enforcement. He would have swingeing powers to start the disciplinary chain for infringements by non-commissioned aircrew, but could only report officers to their own OCs.

brakedwell

31st Jan 2003, 09:44

Nothing seems to change at Brize! In the early seventies, our ambitious navigator boss decreed that officers on his squadron should wear the newly reintroduced forage caps. Those of us who already owned one binned it for the duration of his reign. When the RAF Club got into financial trouble he told his men to join. Those who were aleady members resigned. He made Air Rank, just. There's leadership for you.

Matt Skrossa

31st Jan 2003, 10:48

I can't believe this thread has resurfaced. However, I will reiterate my comments from the previous thread.... Has anyone actually had the b**ls to question this in person, or are you all hiding in the relative anonymity of pprune? As you are all presumably serving in HM Forces then I'm afraid you are supposed to do what you are told, even IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. You can of course question any such order, but unless it is illegal you have as much chance of countering this as Harold Shipman has of being the next President of the GMC. So stop moaning, get on with it and stop this thread, we are all very bored with your pathetic whimperings.

Matt Skrossa

31st Jan 2003, 12:51

Mike Jenvey it has clicked you know.

This thread was dull, is dull and will remain dull. Even if the wearing of blues won't raise moral for the aircrew, I bet the rest of the station are having a great laugh at just how pathetic their aircrew officers and SNCOs can be, I'm pretty sure their moral is very high! So to follow your logic, if the rule is rescinded then moral will be restored? Better issue every member of the HM Forces with a flying suit, then we will accept whatever is thrown at us with good grace and a beaming smile, Hoorah, I'll sign up for another 16 years!

KENNYR

31st Jan 2003, 14:57

Matt Skrossa........I know not and I care not whether you are serving or not or are a wannabe, whatever. The thread has since gone long past the point of the wearing of blues. Cant you read between the lines?????? It would appear that there is some form of conspiracy happening here on the part of the "Top Neddies" at Brize Norton. Noone can find the RSO's, the topic being suddenly deleted by the originator and you talking absolute drivel! It all adds up.

Now be a good boy and go and stack your blankets or whatever mundane task you have set yourself for today and leave us mature adults to get on with discussing this very intriguing subject.

Oh, and P.S. I am not serving and I did invite the Station Commander to comment but he chose not to.

P.P.S. It wasnt the fact that the aircrew had to wear Blues that upset me, it was the effect that it would have on moral of aircrew and groundcrew in this very busy time.

MightyGem

31st Jan 2003, 15:35

And all this at a time when the AAC can now wear flying suits away from the hanger! :ok:

NoFaultFound

2nd Feb 2003, 02:15

My Mum used to tell me that if you looked after the pennies the pounds would take care of them selves, and to a great extent she was right. Now a similar thing could be said of morale, keep the troops happy with the little things and they will forgive, and work around, the big problems. We have all worked with the biggies for many years; kit that needs replacing, unreliable kit, kit that is years behind schedule, more time away with faster turn over times, the list goes on. But, we have continued to do our best and carry on regardless because for the most part we are happy, and we are happy if we can keep in touch with home, can have a beer or two, have got a comfortable place to sleep, can banter our mates in other Sqns and branches and LITTLE things like that. No one expects miricles and most understand the big problems.

So this is why the blues thing at Brize appears to be so unpopular. It is another one of those LITTLE things that has been changed, a backward step, and for no apparent reason, that just annoys people. Now I am not at Brize so I don't know if there has been any reasons givern for the change. At my base all aircrew wear flying suits most days. Everyone knows which Sqn an individual is on and all are V proud to wear the badges. We are slowly loosing our ability to be proud of our Sqns and our branches as the wearing of Sqn coulors is banned and we are loosing our identity. We should be proud of, and encourage Sqn, wing, branch connections, not become a bland service with no distinctions at all. Our uniform is already so bland, the AA and the RAC do much better. We could learn a great deal from the US Forces when it comes to celebrating branches, Sqns etc.

Aircrew should be proud to be aircrew and not have to hide it. The same can be said of the Regement, Engineers, Suppliers ATC, everyone. We need to concentrate on the LITTLE cheap things that create positive attitude and increase morale and that help make up for the big expensive things that take years to change or improve. There should be far more for senior officers to worry about than the wearing of flying suits or Sqn bow ties with No5s. As long as everyone wears smart, clean uniform and they do their job thats all that should matter.

Be proud of your branch (be it air our ground), be proud of your Sqn and be proud of the RAF. We need to get the spirit back in this vocation.

NFF :sad:

Still can't spell even after a first time pass at ISS :yuk:

DESPERADO

2nd Feb 2003, 09:27

Matt,
If all you have to contribute to this thread is that it is boring and that we should all wind our necks in, then as why don't you b0gger off and read something that you do find interesting, nobody is forcing you to read this, I'm sure that your subscription to XXXspank.com hasn't run out yet.
I personnaly feel that the blues issue is unecessary faff and isn't being done for anyones benefit (interesting that we havent heard from Beagle on this one), the blunties will get over their tiny boost in morale quickly so who is it for? Who is gaining in the long run.
I however, would be interested in peoples thoughts about another aspect to this.
I have always fealt when travelling around the USA that it is nice to see servicemen and women travelling in smart kit (ie No1's for RAF). Over the years we have gone away from this due to the terrorist threat. But like someone posted earlier, I reckon it is time to raise the profile of the military in the UK in a good way. Travelling in uniform, with ribbons, looking smart would be good. I am proud of what I do, I am proud of my uniform (though admittedly, I am a little big for it after years of beer and pizza in Goose bay). I personnelly would be happy to wear uniform whilst travelling on duty (doesn't have to be formal kit, but just look ok), because it highlights the military in a good way.
I think that the UK public could do with a reminder sometimes that we are out there (though Saddam and the firemen are helping us in the short term). I'm sure that we would get some abuse from a few idiots, but overall I think it would be positive. I know that there are people in the Military who would be very anti (mainly because they can't be arsed), but its worth a thought.
What do ya reckon?

Uncle Ginsters

3rd Feb 2003, 18:25

Silly question maybe, but does anyone from BZZ actually give a toss? Certainly not in my crewroom - slightly larger issues on the cards methinks

Still the few that portray the many, apparently.

:O

Always_broken_in_wilts

3rd Feb 2003, 18:53

Uncle G......we don't know as nobody seems to be posting from Bzn:eek:

Matt, it's been said before but remove the "kr" and insert "at" and you have it in one:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Lionel Lion

3rd Feb 2003, 20:37

The answer from Brize. Are we bothered - not really, bit of a bind, bit of a moan at first, but profits from sales of blue uniform in clothing stores are up. At the end of the day, there's a new Sheriff in town, and he made his mark amongst the aircrew. A good move on his part I'd say. We now know who's boss. Nuff said - we've got far more improtant things on our plate at the moment.

(anybody know a good ironing contractor??)

;) :yuk:

Always_broken_in_wilts

3rd Feb 2003, 21:03

Oh well there goes another good conspiracy theory:rolleyes:

Thanks for the answer LL and lets hope that puts this one to bed.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

cyrus

3rd Feb 2003, 21:20

Desperado, could not agree more. The wearing of uniform in public would be a very good way to show the rest of the taxpayers the people they are paying to defend them. It would also be a very good way to show commuters just how many serving personnel it takes to administer what few tanks, ships and aircraft we have left to fight with. I suspect that we probably employ more hangers on than the NHS.

Stan Bydike

4th Feb 2003, 06:13

Cyrus

Don't think too many of the "hangers on" we employ these days wear a uniform though.

D-IFF_ident

4th Feb 2003, 18:02

I don't have an opinion on the subject of course, but I do think that a poll could prove interesting...

tengah chum

8th Feb 2003, 11:51

Despite what must be an extremely busy time for him ,I see that the Stn Cdr at Brize still finds time to fly. (At least I presume thats what he had been doing ,prior to giving two recent interviews on local tv news, dressed in his Grow bag.)
Very smart and airman like he looked too.

Biggus

8th Feb 2003, 15:26

Profile, profile, profile.....

As I said earlier, no such thing as bad publicity.

kevlar

8th Feb 2003, 21:47

Ha, Ha, Ha!!! The new boy will continue doing what he has always done - onward and upward, at any cost! Good luck to all of you at BZN.

:rolleyes:

Pontius Navigator

9th Feb 2003, 15:58

Blues were all the rage in the 80s too. And the 60s come to that. In the 80s ALL aircrew were required to come to work in blues. Worse, if we had to visit handbrake house we had to change to blues too.

I lived 45 minutes from base on a 60 minute callout. My boss agreed I could travel in a growbag. He made star rank. Shortly after he left, a flt cdr, bollocked me for not wearing blues. He made a hole in the ground. After he bollocked me he admitted I was unlikely to reoffend as I was posted the next day!

The story or the chipbags and RAF Club is the story of aircrew all over. Independent bastards who will only do what they want. Would you want to go to war with someone that was a follower?

soddim

9th Feb 2003, 16:28

Of all people, an American Wing Commander at Hill AFB tried stopping the wearing of flight suits in the O'Club. When he publicly offered condolences at a memorial service to a widow of a F-4 aviator killed in an accident she said "Don't you speak to me. My husband's flight suit was good enough to die in but not to wear in your goddam O'Club".

Nice to see the emotions about the wearing of the green have not changed!

SASless

9th Feb 2003, 16:57

Arrived at Ft. Rucker (US Army Aviation School) to do a training course while in the National Guard....popped into the "Informal Bar" for a quick pint and sammie....only to be told...that after 1800 all present had to be wearing a tie. What a shame....during Vietnam years...the "informal" bar was....great spot for shooting watches off by hand...outsinging the juke box....and generally making like immortal young men. The Mess Office got into quite a snit when it was reported a couple of Weekend Warrior Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilots were wearing two smelly boot socks tied together and properly secured about the neck of an equally sweaty smelly flight suit. Got the beer....but not the burger....did get the Bum's Rush by the Mess Officer!