About Oxford A.T need to make up my mind

[proxus]

Hi there !

I am in a battle with myself because I am seriously thinking about going to OAT.

I need to know if anyone here who whent to OAT in recent years are still looking for a job ?

Did it help you in your job search to have OAT on your CV ?

This is a serious deal for me because I am selling my flat and mortgaging my mothers one, but I feel that this is what I must do.
Now or never and such thoughts, If you don't play you don't win blabla.

Any informations would be appreciated preferably from former OAT student.

You can e-mail me personally if you like just hit the "private message" button

If anyone here from Iceland have studied there, those informations would also be appreciated

Thanks in advance

Proxus

[ironduck]

Its all about supply and demand - but fate can catch you out. I am an old GOAT (1970) and I recently met a OAT student whose potential employment prospects had plummetted following the industry downturn

You've got to get the timing right and not leave yourself qualication rich and cash poor.

[no sponsor]

Its a tough one. Many on this forum over the past few years have indicated that OATS is the place to go, and as many (if not more) say the OATS does not do anything for you. I read a topic a few months ago, and some airline bod said it did make some sort of difference.

But, when no-one, or very few are hiring, what difference will it really make? My gut feel is that if i could afford it, I would go. I would add though, to not spend all your dosh on Oxford. Budget that you might have to invest 20K to do a 737 rating to get into Ryanair, or Easy Jet, and then see if you can still afford it. Do not rely on OATS saying that 'airlines will be calling you'.

Off topic, the APP seems bleedin expensive. I would prefer just the straight integrated course which they don't seem to do anylonger.

[witchdoctor]

OAT is a good school. It is very expensive compared to the others, and not having qualified from any other school I couldn't say if it was worth the extra cost or not. I was happy with my training, but it hasn't helped in finding work. At the moment, experience is by far and away more important than which school you trained at, and if things don't improve, all that extra money may be better spent on extra hours or something like an instructor rating.

OAT do have something of a reputation for substantial bull**** to get you to part with your cash and sign up (it is something the marketing department excels at), and I would be very wary of any promises made about helping you get a job. The careers development guy is a nice chap, but has an unhealthy preoccupation with Ryanair and this seems to be the limit of assistance current graduates will get. Don't expect anybody to place you in a job, it will only come from your own efforts. Don't fall for the old line of "come to Oxford and we'll help you get a job" - they can't and probably won't.

The current APP scheme is very expensive, far more expensive than the course I graduated from, and I'm not sure what OAT can promise to justify the extra expense. A fancy selection procedure to get on it may only be more marketing to give it an exclusive appeal and back up claims of better employment prospects.

The instruction - ground and flying - is generally very good, but like anywhere else, there are individuals who don't meet the grade. You may be unlucky and get a poor instructor who will cause you a great deal of frustration. The organisation/planning can be poor and this is generally where the frustration kicks in, but now the school is unable to rely on healthy numbers of sponsored cadets and must make its money form self-sponsored students (hence the price rise I imagine), things may improve to your benefit. The marketing department can no longer trade on its airline sponsored connections.

If you go to OAT you won't be disappointed by the training, but you may find a huge gap between reality and what the marketing people promise you today. Proceed with caution.

[MJR]

I dont think it is worth selling your flat and mortgaging your mum's just to go to OATS, there are other options as previously mentioned having OATS on your CV does not guarantee you anything.

Have you passed your class one medical yet?

MJR:confused:

[High Wing Drifter]

Not that I know what I am talking about but my general impression I have is that employers will be keen to look at two things:

1) The bit that says you passed the ATPLs first time
2) The thing that says you passed the CPL/IR first time.

Nee, three things!

3) Your logbook so they can see you have done some decent flying in between.

At the end of the day. Does anybody give a hoot what school(s) you trained at?

BTW, is it coincidence that the two major schools - Bristol and Oxford - are located to provide some subliminal association with the two of the top three universities?

[Mister Geezer]

If you are going Modular then my advice is look around since there are some really good little outfits that are in business. If you want to do the integrated course then that narrows your options but look around. The only things that matters at the moment are hours and where you did your training comes second to that.

The post graduation career help is not as extensive as you might think but if the market was flush with jobs then things might be different. Certainly at the moment the responsibility of finding employment rests solely on you.

I was pleased with the instruction that I got at Oxford and it is probably just as good as you would get at any other good FTO. However today's training system is far less comprehensive then it was a few decades ago. I am doing an FI course and I am lucky to have a senior CAAFU examiner teaching me a lot of the groundschool and it is evident that gaps are appearing in the way pilots are trained nowadays. Compared to the past it seems that if you collect enough Frosties tokens then even you can get your own Frozen ATPL!!! A worrying trend indeed!

So in otherwords the training at Oxford is good. Not poor or fantastic but if you put the effort in then you will achieve what you want.

[garethjk22]

Everyone says that the school makes no difference, but ultimately of course it does - is there difference in graduates between Oxford/Cambridge and an ex-Polytechnic - of course there is. At the end of the day, both have a piece of paper saying BSc/BA on it - but the actual quality of the qualification if hugely different. Airlines need to know, not only that u have the licence, but also the quality of the training - there is an old saying, and I have yet to find the exception - you get what you pay for!

[High Wing Drifter]

Everyone says that the school makes no difference, but ultimately of course it does.
For integrated I acquiesce. Some people may perceive the quality of schooling as being better at Oxford. I wager that any perceptions regarding a schools superiority are held primarily by its students (past and present) and management rather than potential employers; which would parallel opinions regarding Oxbridge and the real world (except the Civil Service) but that is another argument.

For modular, surely the discussion is nearly irrelevant as you already need a PPL and 150 hours before starting the CPL as structured hour building is considered a crucial part of a low-houred ATPL(F)ers CV (so I am told). For the theory stuff: well you are at home for the vast majority of the time and you either know the stuff or you don't (I imagine). It would hard to argue that a first time passer has had a lower quality of training than an Oxford somebody who needed to retake two subjects.

[foghorn]

Gareth,

That's not a good analogy, because Oxford and Cambridge get to cream off the brightest A-Level students in the country. Quality students in = quality graduates out. That's why they command the respect they do.

OATS on the other hand, does not select its self-sponsored students: if you can pay you're in. The respect that they have in the industry comes from being BA's school of choice, being around a long time and being one of just two domestic integrated course providers.

At the end of the day, an Oxford integrated course will cost you at least £20,000 more than a run-of-the-mill modular course, the new APP course much more. However all people graduating with a CPL/IR and 200-ish hours currently end up in the same dole queue. Is it really worth spending all that extra money just to get to the same place as your non-OATS contemporaries?

Note that this has always been the case - even when times were good only a tiny proportion of self-sponsored OATS graduates were recommended by OATS to airlines, and only a small proportion more were hired by airlines with no further experience, just on the strength of having gone to OATS.

You have to ask yourself whether you could better spend all that extra cash on an instructor rating, maybe on the ATP scheme, (dare I mention it) a type rating, or even just making your training debts more manageable so you can afford a few more tins of beans a month or a slightly bigger caravan when you're earning a paltry instructor's salary and repaying those huge loans?

I have no real axe to grind with OATS, they run a quality integrated course that sells well amongst their primary audience: airlines running cadet schemes. At the end of the day they are running a business: when this source of income dries up as it has recently, they are going to look to other markets, and one of these is playing on their reputation to fill their expensive courses with enthusiastic self-sponsored students looking for that mythical OATS-factor on their CVs. I personally think that anyone who is prepared to burn large amounts of money on the off-chance that they might get an airline recommendation, is either loaded, ill-informed, or both. Because after graduating in the cold light of day most find that the £20,000+ extra has bought them little, if any, advantage.

cheers!
foggy

[garethjk22]

Foggy,
You miss my point. OK, let me clarify a few things.
Firstly, don't be fooled that Oxford/Cambridge entry is based on ability - like everything else - if your face fits - and you need to have substantial funds to get into Oxford (I know!) (Note, press coverage of girl with 4 a's - refused - she didn;t have the funds!)
Secondly, the issue of which school is the best is, to many degrees slightly irrelevant. THe key to success is to make yourself marketable - it is not just a case of having the license - you have got to offer what the airlines want. The airlines clearly have a preference for Oxford Graduates - like it or not - that's the way the cookie crumbles. Now, fundementally, when looking at the license issue - there is more to getting the license than being given a bit of paper. It's not what you've got it's how you've got it that the airlines are interested in. They know that to have satisfied the license requirements theoretically means you are up to the job. So, they need to differeniate the endless number of candidates in one way or another. Don;t kid yourself that just cos you have a license means you are on a level playing field. In theory, yes you are, but how many theory books are written based on real life - not many.
Now, the point of my pointless drivel, is that in acheiving the license you need to also be able to demonstrate, on paper, to a potential employer that you are worth interviewing - if Oxford has the upper hand - go for it.
And finally, the APP course is not that expensive - £60k plus accommodation - not a whole load more than Jerez or Cabair - and you get that competitive advantage - o and a few more flying hours, and a jet orientation course ...... Like I say, you get what you pay for.

[millerscourt]

Garethjk22 Your comments re Oxford/Cambridge are nonsense.Just because the media pick on some State school person who did not get into Magdalen College Oxford despite being 'forecast 3/4 A Grade A levels,you seem to think it was cos her face did not fit. All prospective students are forcast A Grades otherwise they would not be invited to Oxford in the first place.

They know what makes a suitable person to stand the rigours of Oxford in the same way as CTC and others know what they think will make the right pilot. Oxford University is cheaper cos you can spend all your 3/4 years in Hall ,only£1850 pa which is a lot cheaper than being in the private rented sector after the first year in most Universities. You sound like you have a big chip on your shoulder !?

There are only a certain number of places to go around at Oxford and they want the best despite the interference from people like Blair and Brown.

[foghorn]

Gareth,

As a Cambridge graduate myself, I'm not fooled by Oxbridge entry requirements. The girl to whom you refer (Laura Spence?) was actually rejected after interview by Oxford, it had nothing to do with funds. Gordon Brown made a big thing of it by suggesting that she had been discriminated against because she was northern and went to a state comprehensive school (ditto both for me - I still got to Cambridge - but I digress). Until universities are free to set their own fees, fees will not be a major factor in choice of universities. Cost of living, yes, but that's highest in London, not Oxford or Cambridge.

Anyway back on the main point, I completely agree that to get a job you have to make yourself marketable. However with respect I just think you are misguided in considering OATS as a way of obtaining marketability, and seriously question its value for money.

I do not believe that an OATS integrated CPL/IR with 200-ish hours is significantly more marketable than a modular CPL/IR with 200-ish hours. If it is then the benefit is not very significant, and only for a very small proportion of the best graduates. The rest of the Oxford 'upper hand' to which you refer is just what their marketing department would have you believe. It's certainly not twenty grand's worth of upper hand.

As for real life. Well, real life is that neither CPL/IR is worth much at the moment. Any hiring that is being done is at experience levels well beyond 200 hours. In fact it was always so in by far the majority of cases. Getting the licence is just the first step, the majority need experience after that before airlines will even give your CV a second look. And once you've got a thousand or so instructional hours under your belt, no-one is interested which school you went to.

Hence why I think OATS (and self-sponsoring at other integrated schools in most cases) is a waste of money.

If I were convinced that the OATS name was going to give me an edge (and IMHO I'd be misguided), I'd do a back-to-back OATS modular course and save me money in the process.

If I were convinced that doing an integrated course was going to give me an edge, (which is probably closer to the truth, but still not very significant, IMHO) I'd go to BAe Jerez and save money.

However at the end of the day it's your money to do with what you will.

cheers!
foggy.

[garethjk22]

I disagree, the use of an analogy is to highlight a point, of course there were more factors involced in the Laura Spence case - it just highlights a point. Anyway, in the context of flying schools. Whether it is marketing blurb or not (and working in marketingm i can see right through it), here are the facts as I see them:

Jerez
Question: What are my job propects?
Answer: Well, expect to wait about a year, and you may get an airline interview. We don't see much opportuinity at the moment

Oxford:
Questio: What are my job prospects?
Answer: Well, by the time you graduate we expect the market to have picked up [marketing blurb]. So, look at the airline orders [EZY, FR etc etc] factor in the natural wastage ... blah blah blah [all more marketing blurb]

... but here comes the useful bit ...

airlines x,y and z (who I shall not name) have all approached us and asked us to proved a,b and c, hence the APP programme, hence the changes etc etc, here is the proof and here is our track record. Based on this you can expect to get interviews (note the s) straight away, it's up to you whether you get the job.


Now, as I say, I see through the marketing blurb, that's not hard, but as I see it, Oxford seem to take some vested interest in what happens after you graduate - Jerez says, thanks for your £58k, the flight homes leaves in half an hour.

Big deal - why Oxford are helping you get a job by talking to the airlines (who appraoch Oxford and not the other way around) and you are getting interviews, and if you are worth your salt, you'll turn one into a job offer. Jerez have in interest and in the meantime the interest you are earning on your loan will soon outweigh the difference in costs.

It is up to you, I know what I would do.
Anyway, I've argued my point enough, and who am I to talk anyway?
lol GJK

[Number Cruncher]

Round 4….ding ding!

Here’s my view:

You’re Chief Pilot looking to recruit. Who do you select from the following??

Mr Oxford
fATPL/CPL/IR
TT: 200 hours

Or;

Mr Any Other School
fATPL/CPL/IR/FIC
TT: 750 hours

OK, take your pick! Who’s it to be? I know where my money goes.
Oh, and if things got even more desperate, Mr Any Other School will probably have another £20k left in the bank to do a TR.

I think the point here is more to do with individual circumstances. Yes, being in Oxford may have some kind of advantages, but as already stated here, the market is not good and experience is gonna have a big say on who gets what. Admittedly, if I had a spare hundred and fifty thousand in the bank (course and further rating costs and foregone salary with a prudence measure built in, in case I end up unemployed), I would probably opt for Oxford, however I am no way near as fortunate and I would rather go modular, keep my job and sleep safely at night in the knowledge that I’ll have some dosh in the bank at the end of the month.

In current times, airlines will be wanting to avoid taking any risks at all. This means recruiting experienced pilots and I’m sorry, but having Oxford on your CV can surely do you no favour at all at the moment. And anyway, what right has Mr/Ms 200hrs TT got over the guy that’s gone through the ranks, flown clapped out aircraft in the middle of the night up and down the UK!?

As they say, life is one big learning process….

I’m sure there’ll be many of you who disagree with my comments, but hey, its just my view and at the end of the day we should all remember that we have a common goal and are all in this painful process together.

All the best….

[witchdoctor]

I'm afraid anyone under the misapprehension that Oxford have a whole stash of airlines up their sleeves ready to interview graduates is being somewhat naive.

I wouldn't class a monthly newsletter e-mailed to graduates stating Ryanair aren't recruiting yet as a first-class recruitment machine. The only benefit OAT graduates get in respect of jobs, is that when Ryanair approach the school, they are prepared to waive the extortionate fees paid if you make a speculative approach directly. I am not aware of a single recent graduate who found work other than with Ryanair as aresult of efforts on the part of OAT. Most airlines do their own recruiting without some sort of secret referral to OAT, or from the CTC holding pool.

There aren't airlines queuing up outside OAT asking for eager graduates to be sent for interview. Additionally, the career development manager (lovely chap as I said before) really doesn't know one graduate from the other. So how would these mystical recommendations work? I rather suspect on the basis of pot luck - which CV gets pulled out of the drawer first.

OAT are experts at making vague promises of employment or increased prospects. Only a few years ago, OAT trained you for a career not just a licence - trouble is they didn't say a career as what!

[P T Flea]

Okay guys, I have read all of the above arguement with great interest and tried to reamain impartial in my conclusions. I went down to Oxford a few days ago to try and suss the whole thing out and from what I have seen I have to agree with garethjk22.

Oxford are no longer running their standard integrated fATPL scheme, the whole thing is now APP. Cadets recently started the old integrated scheme have been upgraded to the APP.

Now you have to ask yourself why many OAT graduates are finding it hard to get employed, cos' for the old course there is no selection, if you've got the money then you're in. It doesn't matter if your an idiot with smelly breath and open-toe Sandals. This means that after you graduate then it's down to you impressing the airline in your selection to get you a place, just cos' you trained with Oxford does not automatically mean your the dream employee and I'm sure that the airlines are aware of this. Now with the APP scheme there is a selection process. This, in theory, will filter out the above mentioned type of person. Ultimately OAT will be producing some of the most desirable employees with some of the best training. I strongly believe that if you've got OAT standard training, OAT actively proposing your cv to interested airlines and you've got the right attitude then you've surely got the formula for success.

As for the cost. 60K. This inlcudes fATPL/CPL/IR. It also includes JOT (10 hours in 737-400 full motion).

If I had the money I would be there like a shot.

PT

[TubularBells]

For what it's worth,

if someone questioned why, after self-funding my training I chose to spend 20K extra on a course just because of the "opportunity" which was uncertain, I would only hope that my response would be that I had just won the lottery, because otherwise I might feel and look a little silly.

Tooooo much money and too many other opportunities available with the money if it is spare.

I haven't even begun my training yet (just a PPL), so am only trying to give you a first-timer's opinion, but I know when common sense prevails. Why risk your mother's house on such uncertainty?

USE your money and use it well. Don't you fancy teaching in light aircraft for a while? Perhaps a few mail runs overnight? Or perhaps an Air-Taxi position? From what I understand and have been told, it can help to make you a very competent pilot. I'm going to go for instruction. It'll cost a little more, but I'm hoping to get good experience out of it and the reward of training other individuals (that seems to be about all you can get out of it these days!). I'm also fairly sure, as number cruncher says, you're going to have a hell of a lot more going for you in this instance, than a name that is attached to your CV.

I know it would be nice to grab that first job on the turbines, but hell, I'm going into this to fly and with the limited amount of experience I have, I'll take anything I can get my hands on if it get's me out of this office and into the air!

Good luck with whatever you do in any case!:D

[witchdoctor]

PT, don't be too impressed by the selection process. It was created through a process that involved asking current/past students to apply for the new course. Presumably most of those would still have passed, including the smelly breath, sandal-wearing brigade you refer to.

OAT is a business, and without sponsored cadets it will take as many self-sponsored cadets as it takes to keep the tills ringing, and the entry standards will ultimately have to reflect this.

Also, what guarantee do you have that OAT will forward your CV to an employer? They can't forward everybody's as they would lose all credibility, so on what basis do they then select them? It wouldn't be good for continuing business if only the top x percent in each course are put forward. Students would leave as soon as it became apparent they weren't going to make the grade and take their business to a cheaper school.

The process as it stands is random and poor. I really don't see that that will change, and 20K more than I paid for a bit more twin time and a JOC (in addition to 20hrs MCC or as a replacement?) isn't really good value.

Once again, the marketing power of Oxford overcomes all common sense, and all without slippery Bob! ;)

[P T Flea]

Witchdoctor,

It was created through a process that involved asking current/past students to apply for the new course.

I don't understand what evidence you base this piece of information on. The selection tests used are those designed by EPST as can be found here http://www.epst.com/aselection.html
These are exactly the same COMPASS tests that are used by selection procedures throughout many airlines (including the one being used at the current CTC selection), so to suggest that the selection has been designed by past/current students is ludicrous! What would be the merit in that? I took the selection tests, so I can vouch for exactly what they consist of.

OAT is a business, and without sponsored cadets it will take as many self-sponsored cadets as it takes to keep the tills ringing, and the entry standards will ultimately have to reflect this.

Yes, indeed OAT is a business and it is in its interests to train as many self sponsored cadets as possible. If OAT were to start to run short of sponsored cadets then, yes, the entry standards would have to be flexible to keep the self-sponsored cadets rolling in.
As it stands OAT is no where near short on sponsored cadets (they have a hell of a lot from Algeria there at the moment) and they are still pouring in e.g. BMI sending cadets there recently. In actual fact the facilites at Oxford are at capacity with the number of students there.
I believe what Oxford are hoping for with the APP is a self-perpetuating scheme whereby they are selective with who they take on the course and the numbers. They give these select handful very good airline orientated training. The end result is a cadet who is very employable. Once the APP course has got underway and they getting the graduates into employment then the course can boast impressive employment statistics. This means that in due course the APP will be in demand and not the other way round i.e. OAT lowering its entry requirements to fill courses. This must be their way of thinking or, as you say, it would make no economic sense to start reducing the numbers.

Also, what guarantee do you have that OAT will forward your CV to an employer? They can't forward everybody's as they would lose all credibility, so on what basis do they then select them? It wouldn't be good for continuing business if only the top x percent in each course are put forward. Students would leave as soon as it became apparent they weren't going to make the grade and take their business to a cheaper school.

When you join the APP course, part of the agreement is that they will actively seek out your first employment post as an airline pilot. This involves researching all available positions and proposing your cv (or your course's cv's) to the airline, as there is only 20 per course.

OAT really have gone all out on this APP course. They have a brand new selection suite and have ordered a **** load of new simulators. It seems that they have put a lot of thought into it. For such a large business to make such a drastic move surely indicates how confident they are of its success and that it wil be a hit in the future.

Look at it this way:
- Employers have always shown a preference for cadets from Oxford.
- The training has just been streamlined in accordance with airlines requests.
- The cadet has had to go through selection to get there and will be the type of person the airline is looking for.
- Airlines will always be looking for the cheapest way to get cadets.
- The APP course and its selection is exatly the same course that BMI are using. So in effect its like going through the sponsored course but without being tied down to one airline in the end.

You have some valid points, but I really think you should research the APP a bit more and try not to be blinded by what you believe to be OAT's bad intentions.

I would be keen to hear what you think.

PT.

[Mister Geezer]

P T Flea

The Khalifa contract from Algeria has stopped and they just have existing students finishing off. I don't know what the state of play is with the Algerian Air Force contract. I heard that immigration were very cagey about issuing any new visas to Algerian students in the light of the number of terrorist arrests involving Algerian nationals. However a couple of interesting points about the Khalifa contract. The first is that Oxford actually lost money which may sound hard to believe but that is what I was told and secondly if it was not for the Khalifa contract then Oxford would of folded in the post 9/11 period. The second comment was one that was mentioned by management! With BA and bmi not running any new courses then Oxford are bound to be creating new ideas to get business. At the end of the day you can't blame them because it is what any company would do.

£20K is a heck of a lot of extra money and if I were you I would make sure that the course extras merit the £20K extra. You would be very foolish to assume that Oxford will find you a job since there are far too many variables. Sadly such a crystal ball does not exist but it would be good if it did! The current political instability in Iraq could tip the balance over to the other side and APP scheme or no APP scheme, you will find that airlines will simply not recruit in the wake of any war. With that money you could buy a jet type rating if you really wanted or you could buy an instructors rating and roughly 50 hours twin time at an FTO that will charge a reasonable price!

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security of flashy new sims and new selection procedure. Also the extra jet handling time would be nice but I recall one chief pilot stating that doing a JOC is pointless since you will be doing the same exercise when you join a company anyway!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Whilst not wishing to comment upon individual schemes one should remember that BAE also have an aptitude assessment process for ALL students applying to the college.

For myself I would pay for the cheapest Modular CPL/IR Frzn ATPL I could.

This would be done by distance learning the ATPL whilst working. A PPL and some hours done in States or South Africa or similar. Then a Modular CPL IR at a small school with a tatty HQ and a good reputation at an airfield preferably close to home.

I estimate this costing around £43,000 all in with a following wind.

I would then - over some of the other options discussed here - have something like £20,000 in my back pocket to enhance my career prospects.

This would be a useful sum. It would buy me a type rating on a Shed - a type that a night freight company have recently hired on. Or a J41 rating which Eastern are currently advertising for. Or a HS148 rating which a certain freight company might find interesting. Ot a FI rating with Instrument qualification, night qualification and even Multi FI rating which a local school might be interested in. Or throw it at CTC to get into their airline preparation scheme. Or throw it towards Ryanair with their self paid type ratings. Or use the saving to support myself joining BA as cabin crew - they are advertising internally first (like all airlines) for staff with Frzn ATPL's and current IRs to apply as flightcrew.

The list is endless. A proactive attack down one of these or other avenues where few others are doing the same may well produce better results than hoping a large airline is going to approach a particular FTO at the right time looking at you and 40 of your colleagues.

That said, you pays your money and takes your choice.

Just be aware there are lots of choices.

Good luck,

WWW

[millerscourt]

What a terrible situation young Wannabes are in these days not only are they expected to pay huge sums for a basic licence,but now it seems further huge sums for a type rating. All so that the Airlines can make bigger profits and Joe Public can travel ever more cheaply year after year.!
When they finish this expenditure there are no guarantees that they will even find gainful employment.

I cannot think of any other job where the Employee is expected to contribute so much of one's own time and money to enter a chosen career.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well Doctors spend 7 years in training accumulating debts to the order of £30,000 and if they then wish to enter General Practice they will need to get a loan of say £50,000 to buy into a halfway decent practice. Starting pay is often then in the order of £50,000 pa with unsocial hours, increased life and insurance premiums and the very real possibility of assault at work several times a year.

Similarly someone training to become a Barrister is likely to accumulate debts of well into £50,000 to become qualified over the period of 4 years when pay is miniscule. It can then take a further 3 years to find a position in a firm operating in your prefered area of law. But then the pay, terms and conditions accelerate away like nobodies business. One does have to be actually quite clever and studious mind.

I have friends doing both.

I had the cheaper, easier and more fun deal I think.


WWW

ps Talking pre Sept 11th that is.

[garethjk22]

Put yourselves in the airlines position.
Here they have a brand new shiny Airbus, costing around £30 million. Now, naturally they need someone to fly the thing. Being cost conscious they decide on a new graduate with very low hours. Now who are you gonna choose? Someone who has invested that bit extra in a course designed to offer airlines pilots who have been trained specifically for the type of flying they are looking for, from a school who is reputable, has a well proven track record and proves candidates of a 'known' history, and training record, and a high standard (not that the other schools are not high standard - they just know from experience that Oxford is so therefore it's low risk)

or,

someone who's done it on the cheap?

Now, in my experience (and knowing some poeple who make these decisions) what tends to happen is the 'known' graduates get the shiny new Airbus, the cheap ones get the HS748.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the way I view it. You are playing a game of politics, not showing who can pass the course.

GJK

[GonvilleBromhead]

who have been trained specifically for the type of flying they are looking for

And what type of flying is that exactly Gareth ?

If what you're saying is true, then surely every Airbus/Boeing/shiny jet operator will be clamouring at OATS' door, begging for their graduates ??

Interesting comparison there with the HS748, an aircraft that will be flown around in all weather, literally, mostly at night in this country, oh, and all hand-flown profiles and approaches as there is knack-all computerisation on board.

One could argue it takes more pure pliotage skill to perform these duties than operate a nice shiny EFIS/FMC equipped a/c ?

And I do not believe that by being prudent in choosing good modular ground/flight schools should be viewed as "on the cheap", nor do I believe airlines perceive it as such.

Everyone has their opinion on OATS, and whether it is worth the extra for the name, personally, no I do not believe so. Although I do not go along with some of the OATS bashing that can occur here, it has enough recommendations from people here for me to believe it is certainly a good training establishment.

But I think it would be incredibly naive of anyone to believe that in this world, the OATS grad will get the head start over his modular/non-OATS contemporary, life isn't that simple, regardless of how it is marketed.

[Number Cruncher]

Its no wonder some people never make it in this game….

I think its already been decided. If you have lots of cash to dish out, then yes, throw it at Oxford, good school, however, you’ll get the same license, but i suppose one advantage is that you can let someone else do all the work in your attempt to find employment whilst you sit on your arse!

I’ve learnt a great deal from reading this forum over the last few months and am probably much wiser for it, but if you think you’re going to graduate and get straight into the RHS of an A320, then you’re either going to have to be extremely extremely lucky or be the son/daughter of the MD of the airline!!

I’m prepared for a bloody hard slog over the next couple of years and have accepted the fact that I’ll accept any job going whether it be flying mail through the night or sitting in a nice shiny cockpit, however, I’m confident that with the right attitude and determination I’ll get that A320 RHS one day. If you don’t mirror that view, then I suggest you should maybe carefully re-consider your motives because it seems to be a very tough and competitive industry.

Best of luck anyway

[witchdoctor]

Sorry to see two people at least have been thoroughly taken in by the marketing of the APP course.

The promises and impressive figures you quote are spookily similar to the ones quoted prior during open days 2 years ago. (97% of our graduates pass, more than 80% are in a FO position within 3 months of graduation blah blah blah). It's a shame that the reality doesn't match the promises, and that applies to almost all of the most recent graduates (don't want anyone thinking it's just me because of my smelly breath and sandals).

I'm not knocking OAT, but seriously guys, don't believe it until you actually see it.

As for PT's questions, the APP selection may very well be based on ones elsewhere, but recent graduates were invited to apply and de-bug the system before it went live. I draw my conclusions from that.

I hope that when you all graduate you find yourselves in the fortunate position of having a healthy job situation to market yourselves in (DIY is definitely the best way), that way you can avoid any subsequent disappointment when OAT are unable to magic up 250 odd vacancies a year out of a recession for the exclusive employment of OAT graduates. ;)

[garethjk22]

OK, let me once again add further clarity to my argument. Which job pays more? The A320 or HS748 - if you really want to argue that the HS748 pays more - great go ahead - i'll just watch you commit social suicide. So, my point which I spelled out in as many words is that the choice of school is nothing to with ability, your skill - it is a political choice.

Look, main pax airlines in this country (sched and charter) are risk aversive, and cost conscious - They want someone who is the lowest risk - I'm not interested in what historically that stats are for OAT - the point is this new APP programme is under consideration - and if that is what the airlines want chances are that is where the airlines will look first for pilots.

Personally, I'll fly a duck with a seat - but with a potential bank loan to consider, the option of I'll fly anything does not feature - the attitude of - this is gonna cost me £60k and I need to pay it back (and to have a life would be nice) so, i'm gonna choose the course which gives me the greatest chance of success - I'm not saying it is the best - never have, i'm not saying that someone else from somewhere else will not get the job I want, what i am saying is, - play the game - give the airlines what they want. You can harp on all you like about my qualification is the same as Fred Smiths - that is the niave attitude. This goes back to my original analogy with the universities - the APP scheme is based on ability - yes, BAe also ask you to do a test - but the APP selection scheme is a carbon copy of the airlines sponsorship selection process - I notice someone complaining about it - I would complain if it wasn't! So Oxford recruit the best and are perceived from the person who dishes out the employment contracts point of view as being one of the best schools.

The JOC element - maybe you do repeat it when you start training with the airline - but at least the airlines will know if your likely to pass it if you've already done the basics - lowers their risk.

I'm not working on behalf of Oxford, I'm not championing their corner, I am not dissing any other school or route. What I am saying is - look logically at the situation. The APP scheme is the same cost as BAe (maybe slightly more) but accommodation is extra. BAe is £57-£60k depending on exchange rate, OAT APP is £60k. OK, you also need accommodation but that's it - the accommodation comes as cheap as you want to make it. So, OAT may end up around £65-£70k.

Modular - rarely costs as low £40k, nearly always creeps up to around £60k - based on what everyone I have spoken to has told me.

Anyway, I've harped on enough and no doubt bored you all to tears (for which I am sorry - but this was a nice distraction to what I was doing before). So, good luck everyone, we'll all get that Shorts SD360 job one day, and my won't we be proud of it!

GJK

[millerscourt]

Wee Weasley Welshman Cannot agree totally with you as in my case I can afford to keep my offspring over a 7 year period should they want to be Doctors or a Barrister and if they qualify they will be employed without any debt and if a Doctor they can go anywhere in the World and be welcomed with open arms. Barristers I agree a different case but they can always retrain to be Lawyers if they are any good. Training to be a Barrister also opens up other avenues of employment if the going gets tough,not something Pilots have up their sleeve.
Whilst as you say Doctors have to buy into a practice,they have an asset to sell one day!! Pilots don't.

If my offspring wanted to be Pilots I could not afford £80000 in one year only with no guarantees at the end that they will be employed,especially as I have already supported them through three years at Uni.Thankfully neither have any interest in that direction.

I sometimes wonder whether a large number of Wannabees choose this flying business cos of relatively short training period before earning what for a 21year old seems a good salary.

[Johnny 7]

I thought that originally the OAT APP was to provide suitable candidates to something like the CTC scheme - I'm sure this was being booted around 2 or 3 years ago ? Then I read that the APP had the backing of a few of the airlines , one of which was KLMuk ( as was ) . So why are Buzz still using Cabair for the partial sponsored instructor route ( & yes I know there are tax implications ) ?

Frankly I'm surprised that potential candidates for this modified integrated course are not asking why , with so much interest from airlines , there are so many unemployed OAT graduates who , given the chance , would give a lot to sit in the right hand seat of a 748 , SD360 or F27/ 50 .

garethjk22 is right - airlines do want the lowest risk when selecting pilots - that's one of the reasons that airline flying has lost it's appeal for so many long in the tooth boring old fuggars like me - when the f/o has the social skills of an amoeba I'd rather be flying a 748 - at least there's something to occupy my time !

[P T Flea]

First things first, no one here is suggesting that just because OAT are who they are that they will have 250 jobs lined up for graduates when they come out of training. All I am saying is that as part of the APP course they actively propose your cv to airlines and do much of the hard work for you.

These days it seems a licence is no longer just a licence the airlines look a lot closer as to how you attained it.

As for a supposed surplus amount of OAT grads out there now, yes there may be. What I am saying is that those grads were in no way screened when they took the course up and could have just done it cos' they had the money. They still may not be airline material. Don't forget that when we have our shiny new licences the airlines still carefully look at who you are, your credentials and how you did on the course.

Okay, OAT may not be anywhere near the cheapest way of doing things, but if it increases my chances of getting employed at the end of it then I am sold. Like gareth says, I would also fly a duck with a saddle. I am just mad keen to get my hands on my first duck and want to maximise my chances of doing that in anyway possible. I may not be very experienced in life yet, but there is one simple rule that I have found always holds true: you get what you pay for. OAT only charge what they charge because of the quality of the training and the respect that Oxford gets in the aviation industry.

Like gareth, I am not in Oxford's corner I am simply looking at what is presented before me. I am completely open to ideas of how to get a licence and your first job.

PT

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As I said there are other routes. Were I to be back at square one I have made it clear which one I would follow...

Thats having been to the wire on most sponsorships, having paid for my own ATPL CPL IR, then taught PPL, CPL and IR at a big posh FTO which got me involved with airline selection and sponsorship.

My concise view is this:

In the good hiring times it is worth the extra cost of going to top line FTO's on premium courses as a seemless move from college to airline is a possibility.

Adding one BAD two NOT's to that sentence turns it on its head.

WWW

[witchdoctor]

Interesting that social suicide results from your salary and not from opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble.

I'm sure I can hear the airlines beating a path to your door right now:rolleyes:

[Gin Slinger]

Or opening your arse and letting your brain fart...

[Jimmy the Pilot]

but I heard it from someone who used to work for oxford in the sales department!

There is this thing about Oxford training for the big airlines. But Oxford has not won an airline training contract for years. When September 11th came along they had only 3 left - contracts awarded several years before. But BA had already chucked Oxford off the shortlist for the new contract that they were in the process of awarding (but at least they finished off the cadets who had already started) and Aer Lingus had told Oxford that they were not going to send them anymore cadets.

I asked who has awarded airline contracts in the last few years? this was the list that Oxford did not get:

BA
Emirates
Air Malta
Britannia
flybe
easyJet
JMC
Air 2000
klmUK/Buzz
Kuwait Air

These were the airlines that rejected Oxford. They did, however, get that well know airline Khalifa, but unfortunately lost that contract to BAe.

Please, someone, explain to me logically the myth that it is worth paying £20K extra to attend a school that has been written off by these airlines?

My vote = go to BAe for integrated or go modular if you cannot get sponsorship.

I have nothing personally against OATS, but I do get the impression they are a spent force.

[tonyblair]

IMHO the OATS APP is one of the most cynical marketing cons that the flight school industry has spat out for as long as I’ve been aware of it (since I was about 16). They charge £72,000 for the same course that BAe charge £54,000 for.

All this rubbish about selection is rubbish – if it was meaningful selection, you would get through sponsorship selection, and be on the eJ/JMC/Brit/CTC McAlpine/Buzz/etc cadet schemes, and not be paying over the odds for a bog standard course. If you fail those selections, then go to OATS; harsh, but true. The exception to that is that you are out of the age limits for cadet schemes. I’m lucky; I’m not. If I was, I’d use my limited funds carefully, then apply to the CTC ATP scheme.

After the selection comes the training. OATS have a great reputation for groundschool; probably well deserved. But a pass is a pass. Who the hell gives a stuff about the ATPLs once you have them? The flight training is bog standard – up to CPL given in the States at a FAA school that OATS bought, and the IR bit back at Oxford. As far as I can see the £20K is justified by promising to tell you how to write a CV.

My assessment is that OATS are no worse than other schools – but I cannot detect anything about them that is better, and therefore they go on the reject pile as they are trying to con me out of money I cannot afford.

[P T Flea]

Tonyblair,

All this rubbish about selection is rubbish – if it was meaningful selection, you would get through sponsorship selection

Congratulations on a well thought out line of argument.

You should sit the selection and then decide for yourself wether it is a load of rubbish.

The course does not cost £72,000. It costs £60000. Does that figure from BAe you qoute include their lovely accomodation and food, I doubt it. So you're quoting to me the MOST expensive OAT price you can muster and comparing that with the basic training cost from BAe. Twisting figures around to push a bad position, hmmm you'd make a good politician, is that why you chose your username?

I'm as cynical as the next person about OAT's motivation to got to the 'revolutionary' APP scheme, but don't go throwing random figures about.

People here are going on out doing it the modular way and saving 20k. How is that possible exactly? Someone mentions doing it all for £43,000. Does this include all examination fees, skill tests, text books, food for the time of study and the total cost of the mortgage they paid out whilst studying? From a number of people that I have consulted with the modular route comes out to about the same cost of 60K in the end.

The fact of the matter is that no one has come out of the APP scheme yet so no one can say exactly how employable they are or whether they will join that back of the queue with the other OAT grads.

I am not here for an argument, just the facts.

PT

[Red Ice]

BAE costs 92000 euros inc accomodation and food.

This equals about 60k.

OATS course is 60k without food etc so i calculate you'll need another 10k for accomodation + food in Tyler if your cheap!

I'm doing the selection at Oxford to get an idea of what that place is about and how they can justify the 10k+

At the moment, assuming ctc mac don't want me, i'll be hitting BAE late this year.

The thing that draws me away from oxford is what 10k can buy you. Half a type rating on a 737, instructors rating etc

Anyway, i'm going for selection for the APP soon so i'll keep you posted on my thoughts and opinions


Red Ice

[millerscourt]

It cost me £4500 incl full board in 1967 at Oxford for CPL/IR Perf A!! Does not sound much now but you could buy a nice house then for £5000. £60000 doesn't buy a rabbit hutch now.

F/O HS125 1969 Salary £2000 pa

First Charter Airline F/O 1972 £4000pa I never felt poor in those days.!!

[tonyblair]

PT Flea

Ah, I forgot BAe's recent price rise. It was about £54K including food and accommodation, but as Red Ice says it is now about £60K. There must be punishing inflation in Spain as well as Oxfordshire.

OATS on the other hand are quoting £60K + £12K food and accommodation = £72K

That's still a £12K premium……for what?

My comment about the APP selection; not elegantly phrased! Most APP applicants who are eligible for cadet schemes will previously have applied for sponsorship and been rejected, before contemplating paying for training themselves with no job at the end of it. If the APP selection was as discriminating as cadet scheme selection, none of them would pass it. However, there is a strong incentive for OATS to let people pass so they can overcharge them for an integrated course. Of course they will not lower the selection standards - everyone will fail it, except those who were ineligible for the various sponsorship schemes.......:rolleyes:

[P T Flea]

Tonyblair,

Yes you're right, I suspect some applicants for the OAT APP will have applied for sponsorship and not been successful. That is not to frown on anyone who has not made it through a sponsorship selection like the vast majority of wannabe's do. ;)

I understand that it is probably not in their interests to make the entrance requirements on selection that high...initially.

If we think carefully about the APP procedure then it is not in their interests to take on any one who should be sitting in the corner with a dunce's hat on either, for consider:

OAT APP have come up with an arrangement with a high street bank. Apparently, passing the selection procedure and embarking on the APP course makes a statement to the banks that this student 'is not only extremely likely to complete the course but is also quite likely to get employed'. Now either:

1. OAT don't care about the loan being repaid, as long as they will give it to the cadet so they can embark on the course. or

2. OAT have persuaded the bank (banks are not easily persuaded to part with money might I hastely add) to give the dosh by disclosing something to the banks about the chances of employment that they won't tell us yet.

Now if people start failing the course left, right and centre because they never had the aptitude in the first place then the banks are going to get a bit pissed off that the 'carefully screened' student can't start paying the loan back. Additionally if people start coming off the course and there is absolutley no improvement in employment stats then the banks are also going to get very pissed off. In fact with a double wammy like that they may just pull their support all together and so the APP will go down the toilet. So it is not directly in OAT's interests to let Tom, Dick or Harry through.

Let's face the whole point of the APP is like a sponsorship without the airline. It's to let people that haven't got the money a chance to get into the airlines by helping them get the money.
How do they help them get the money, by convinving the bank that they are likely to pass the course (this may be true). They have also convinced the banks that the cadets are more likely to get employed at the end of the APP (I'm still not convinced on this one).

ARRRRGGGGH!

I just don't understand it. What is the extra 12k for?

PT

[P T Flea]

I have just remember that they include 10 hours of Jet Orientation Training at OAT APP to reduce the risk of failing a type rating. This is worth at least £5000. They also include a lot of proffesional development lectures throughout. Plus the supposed added career development support at the end of the course and for the rest of your working life as a pilot. I suppose you're paying for the name a bit and for going on a course that the airlines have directly inputted into and are directly interested in.

In fact for a complete list of what is included go here:

http://www.oxfordapp.com/structure.htm

http://www.oxfordapp.com/app_cost.htm

PT

[High Wing Drifter]

Boeing 737-400 JOT Synthetic Flight Training (Oxford)
I assume "JOT" means 'Jet Orientation Training' - sounds great don't it? Christ, if you can't pass a type rating at this stage then you havn't a hope anyway. Regardless of what fancy pants school you decide to support just aim for first time passes. That will encourage the Chief Pilot to read further down your CV. Oh and with regard to another priceless piece of advice given in this here forum yonks ago, make sure your shoes are shiney for the interview.

[duir]

Sorry for jumping on the end of this one.
I have been umming and arring about whether or not to use OAT for Modular/distance ATPLs and subsequent CPL/IR/MCC.
Its terrifying to think I am about to spend £30000 on an organisation that has so many people slagging it off. If this was a £30000 buisness deal I would have run a mile by now!
Can OAT really be so dodgy? If so where the hell else do I go? One of the unknowns?
Even at this early stage in my carreer, I realise that neither OAT or anyone else is going to find a job for me. I am the only one who can do that. I really don't care what I fly either.

My Questions are ;

Is OAT a top notch provider of the ATPL?

Why are they more expensive than most other companies?

[Julian]

I am just in the process of using OATs for the ATPL groundschool (Distance) but will carry on Modular for the rest. It was down to them and Bristol and OATs won on convience to get there in the end.

I have to say its an interesting argument but one thing is Gareth is talking out of his @rse with his Oxford/Cambridge and ex-poly analogy! I have interviews lots of applicants for my profession (engineering before you ask) and we have have hopefuls come through the door with 1sts on paper. When you talk to them you find out that if that if isnt exactly how they have been taught or how it reads in the text book then they go to pieces and cant cope!

So coming from a Uni or somewhere with a top class name doesnt count for anything at the end of the day ... it comes down to can you PERSONALLY deliver!

[P T Flea]

I have just been looking around for the cost of modular courses. I have found this page on the Oxford site that details the 'Oxford Classic Package'. So for the cost of £27k you get ATPL ground, CPL/IR/MCC

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/oxford/modular/newmod.htm

So what is missing there? I thought that the whole lot up to that level costs in the region of 40-60k?

If you were to do that modular course would you emmerge with a frozen ATPL?

I must be missing something.

Thanks for any help.

PT

[Johnny 7]

Modular assumes a level of experience that integrated does not , PPL / IMC followed by hours building or ex-military , for example .

High Wing Drifter makes an interesting point about type-ratings following JOT/MCC training - I know of people who have had type-rating training discontinued by their sponsors following succesfully completing JOT - they just couldn't cope in the actual sim . With 200 odd hours piston experience , many find the transition to jets a struggle .

[Mister Geezer]

And some find the transition to turboprops even harder! :eek:

[tonyblair]

£5,000 for 10 hrs in the OAT 'sim'. You have to be kidding. It's not a sim, its an FNPT 2 MCC. There was a thread explaining all about if some while back. If I remember correctly, there are 3 types of synthetic trainers: Full Flight Simulators, which are type specific and can be used for type rating and everything; FFS have to have full motion. Then there are Flight Training Devices, also type specific and they can be used for half the hours for a type rating, rating renewals etc; FTDs are usually fixed-base. At the bottom of the pile are FNPTs, which can be used for licence training and MCC only. They are generic and may have a passing resemblance to a particular type, but don’t have to have accurate representation of the systems, performance etc.

The OATS FNPT is another con - they pretend it is a simulator and a B737-400. In fact it is a generic FNPT 2, based loosely on the B737-400, with a motion system. I would have fallen for that con if a well informed friend had not pointed it out to me.

Apparently, current type FFS time costs £500/hour. FNPT 2s are worth about £120/hour.

I wouldn't be so anti this course if it were competitively priced and OATS were honest about what you are getting for your money. But like you, PT Flea, I cannot see any justification for the inflated price whatsoever. :*

(I hope I have all those facts right, or I'm about to get flamed again!) :)

[badattitude781]

Hi all,

In response to the original question:
I completed the Integrated ATPL course at Oxford quite recently and am now flying B757.
Yes, they got me through my exams and SOME of their instructors are first class and my fellow students were some of the nicest people I have ever met. However, our course made formal complaints against the school on more than one occasion due to the unsatisfactory standard of service. I have spoken to other students since my time at Oxford and I have heard of similar discontent. It appeared that the problems stemmed from the middle management/CGI.

The second point is whether having the Oxford 'name' on your CV will put you in a better position for employment. I imagine this comes down to the indiviual who is doing the recruiting but most people in the industry seem to indicate that as long as you have the relevant qualification that is all that matters. The same applies for a Modular or Integrated course. Holding the JAA license is ultimately the only thing people look for.

I'm sorry to be so derogatory but I would hate to see anyone else pay the significantly higher fees that Oxford require only to be disappointed.

[scroggs]

Oxford have created the APP scheme in competion to CTC's sponsorship scheme. They will no doubt state that it was developed in concert with potential customer airlines, though said customer airlines seem notably thin on the ground. Having said that, I'm sure it's a good course but I personally believe that CTC's is the better package. The course (not the school) may well make a difference if it removes cost and risk for an employer, and I believe that CTC's course scores more highly in this area than OAT's. (Discuss!) But there have to be jobs out there to go to, and currently there are very few!

I'd echo WWW's advice. Don't get suckered by marketing hype - no school can get you a job that doesn't exist. Widen your horizons beyond jets. Don't let other wannabes' impressive but misguided arguments, entirely based on assumption, deflect you from the normal, rational process you go through when making any big purchase. Make sure you get what you pay for; if OAT (or anyone else) makes claims that they can't substantiate, walk away.

If you can, delay your entry into training until the fallout from Bush vs the Middle East (the sequel) has settled and the future is beginning to look clearer. For sure, there will be an effect on airlines and their recruiting!

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]