French mountain rating?

[QDMQDMQDM]

If you are in a G-reg aircraft with a UK licence do you need the French mountain rating to go into the French altiports:

http://www.gletscherflug.ch/gallery/album16?&page=1

If so, is it even possible to add the rating to a UK licence? Any info gratefully received.

QDM

[Rod1]

QDM

I was chatting to an owner of an Auster at Leicester who was planning to get his mountain rating this year. He was planning to hire a French instructor/aircraft do the rating and then put skis on his Auster. He seemed to think the UK licence was not a problem, but the rating is at least partly strip specific and has a currency requirement of, I think he said six months.

Good luck if you have a go, I will be very envious!

Rod

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Hi QDM,

Short answer is no. For an altiport you need only a "site authorisation" from an instructor who is qualified to issue it.

Here's the long answer! :)

There are 2 classes of mountain landing site in France. "Altiports" and "altisurfaces".

Altiports are licensed airfields with published circuit patterns, which meet a number of criteria defined by the French DGAC (CAA). Altisurfaces are unlicensed airfields. Some of them have runways, some of them are rather basic. And some of them are glaciers.

There are 7 altiports in France (Megeve, Alpe d'Huez, Courchevel, Corlier, Meribel, another one in the Alps which I've forgotten, and Peyresourde in the Pyrenees). You can obtain a site authorisation for any of these, which allows you to use the altiport unaccompanied. The authorisation expires if you don't use if for 6 months.

To have unrestricted access to all the altiports, and to the altisurfaces, you need the full mountain rating.

This is a reasonable undertaking. It usually takes between 15 and 30 hours training, assuming you have a good general flying ability to start with. Good taildragger skills help, unless you use a Rallye - which is the only nosewheel type that is regularly seen at altisurfaces. Instruction has to be given by a qualified mountain instructor, of whom there are about 80 in France. At the end of the course there is an exam which covers general mountain flying skills (crossing passes, turns in valleys, assessment of wind and likely turbulence), landing at altiports, and landing at several different altisurfaces. Navigation is also covered, in that you are expected to find your way from one altisurface to the next without asking the examiner and without infringing any national or regional parks. (Navigation is a nightmare to start with when all the mountains look the same. After a while it becomes easier, and use of maps is very unusual.) The standard required for the test is high.

You can do the training in winter, on skis, in which case you qualify for the mountain pilot's rating with the "extension neige". To get this you will also have to train on glaciers and glacier landings will be added to your exam. The ski-qualification automatically entitles you to use altiports and altisurfaces when there is no snow - which is bizarre, and is being contested by the French mountain pilot's association. It is much easier to land with skis. If you train on wheels, you need to retake the exam on skis before you can land on a snow-covered altiport or altisurface.

Once you pass the exam, the instructor will sign your logbook to show you've passed. In France the mountain qualification is a formal rating which is added to the licence. For foreign licences this isn't possible; instead you will be issued an "attestation" showing your UK licence number and stating that you have met the conditions required for issue of a mountain rating and that you are therefore authorised to land and take off at altisurfaces. To get this document you need to provide your licence and logbook (or copies thereof) to the regional DGAC office. The logbook must show proof of adequate mountain training, and be signed by the examiner. You must also provide the exam report which is given to you by the examiner after the test. The DGAC makes no charge!

I hope this answers your question. If you are thinking of getting the rating, my advice is don't hesitate. The trianing is fun, the scenery is breathtaking, you will fly to some quite incredible places where it shouldn't be possible to land an aeroplane. You will train with instructors who are absolutely dedicated to their sport, and who are among the most skilled (and unassuming) pilots around.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Thanks a lot chaps, especially AerobaticFlyer!

The altisurfaces are much more interesting than the altiports. I'm taking the cub to the Swiss alps for three weeks this summer, but shan't have the chance to do the full rating I fear. Hopefully, I'll take a week or two next year and do it and maybe I could even do it in my own aircraft which would cut cost a bit?

Anyway, I'll join the French mountain pilot's assoc.

Out of itnerest, have you got the rating, AerobaticFlyer?

QDM

[Aerobatic Flyer]

The altisurfaces are way more interesting! Some of them are a bit hair-raising....

You should be able to do the rating in your own aircraft with a bit of pre-planning. If you join the AFPM, they can provide you contact details of instructors.

If you're coming to the Alps, and can make it to France for a day or two, I'd be happy to show you around some altisurfaces in a Jodel or a Rallye. (Cubs tend to bounce a lot when I land them...:( )

I've got the rating, but not the ski-rating. Hopefully I'll be able to add that in the next few weeks, if the good weather is kind enough to come when I can take a couple of days off work.


By the way, the altiport that I forgot before is La Motte Chalancon, which I haven't yet visited. This site (http://www.pilotlist.org/montagne/) has some pictures and descriptions of a few altisurfaces. It hasn't been updated for ages, unfortunately, so some of the links don't work.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Great stuff, AF. I'll let you know if I can make it down. I'll be in Saanen. Where are you based?

Thanks again,

QDM

[alphaalpha]

QDMQDMQDM

A friend and I did a morning's mountain flying from Annecy last year (with an instructor) and it was great fun. We did Megeve and Courchevel and one altisurface. The latter was a very steep rough meadow with a flat bit at the top.

Whilst I would thoroughly reccommend it, I would not suggest you try without an instructor (whether legal or not). Just one example of why: taking off from the altisurface, we did not really have flying speed at the end of the strip, where the mountainside fell steeply away below. The trick is to push forward and dive into the valley to gain flying speed, whereas conventional wisdom is to pull back to take off. The latter would have caused a stall.

Density altitude performance, unusual circuits, escape plans are other reasons which I learned after only a couple of hours.

Enjoy, I'd like to go back.

[Davidt]

Just got back from a weeks skiing at La Plagne and spent many an hour in the cafe opposite the Altiport at Courcheval speculating about getting in there .

One problem for me I dont speak French! Is all the training exams etc in the lingo, are there any Bilingual instructors?:confused:

[slim_slag]

There are some great pictures there, you should have a lot of fun in your supercub qdm.

Aerobatic flyer. You draw a distinction between a 'site authorisation' which I gather allows you to land at a single altiport only, and the full rating. What are the training requirements for a single site authorisation?

Altisurfaces sound real fun! If you have the rating, can you land on any old piece of snow or grass which looks suitable, or does it have to be a suitable and designated area. From the sounds of alphaalphas description of one altisurface, 'suitable' sounds a bit generous :D - but then where is the excitement if it's all flat.

The French have a similarly risque approach to skiing. If you can get to the top of it, you are allowed to kill yourself skiing down it. Quite refreshing compared to some other nanny states where the lawyers stop people having too much fun. Actually the lawyers don't care if you kill yourself either, but they do not want your next of kin to sue the company who built the lift which so negligently conveyed you to the top of the slope. :(

[GRP]

The people at Megeve Aeroclub told me that a site authorisation usually involves about 5 hours training and a full mountain rating
more like 20-25 hours.

Does anybody know what the currency requirements are on either of these? I can't imagine turning up at Megeve and landing there having not done so for 6 months or so!

Graham

[QDMQDMQDM]

Does anybody know what the currency requirements are on either of these? I can't imagine turning up at Megeve and landing there having not done so for 6 months or so!

Common sense would suggest that you turned up in recent practice on taildraggers and at shortfield landings. No point making life difficult for yourself!

Is all the training exams etc in the lingo, are there any Bilingual instructors?

Ask around. There probably are. There's a list of clubs on the AFPM page.

For those who can parley un peu de la inky-pinky, ici est un web page interessant:

http://bravomike.free.fr/pipercub.htm

(Looks like a 90HP Super Cub and I don't quite know why he thinks it's a PA19?)

Again, for anyone who can speak French, this is useful as a summary of what it all entails:

http://www.aeroclubdauphine.asso.fr/html/4_apprendre/perfect/montagne.html

Once, many moons ago, I did a similar course in the Idaho backcountry in a 172 and a Super Cub. It was when we had full power on and were descending at 2,000 feet a minute that I realised there was a little more to this stuff than first met the eye. ;-)

QDM

[slim_slag]

GRP, thanks for that. 5 hours sounds reasonable for a mountain flying course when you are landing at a 'proper' airport. The altisurface does sound fun, but I can see you might want to be with an instructor for a good few hours more. The scenery in the Alps sure is stunning. Remember to always have an out!

[SteveR]

This is also being discussed on the flyer forums at:

http://www.flyer.co.uk/forum2/read.php?f=1&i=5659&t=5659

there are some other links in there, but if you read anything about it, read this:

http://www.higher.flyer.co.uk/html/lflj.html


Steve R

[Splork2000]

Excellent info regarding flying in France. What does the cost for these ratings run?

Slightly off the specific topic of French Mountains, but related and very interesting nonetheless.

Some good photo's in the Photo section.

http://www.mountainflying.com/


Splork

[Aerobatic Flyer]

QDM,

I'm based in Lyon, and fly from Villefranche sur Saone and from Megève. Private message or e-mail me if you can make it.

Alphaalpha,

Sounds like you probably went to St Roch Mayères (or just possibly to St Jean d'Arves). It's quite normal to lose a bit of altitude after take off. Take off is often the most critical part of the whole exercise, at altisurfaces. In most cases it is preferable to land with a reasonable tailwind, despite the short landing run available, so that you will have a headwind to help with takeoff. It is not easy to get used to landing at a 250 metre strip with a tailwind, all the more so when go-arounds are impossible... But it's way better than trying to take off with a tailwind on a sloping strip where you can't abort your take off run!

I'd re-emphasise your point about not trying it without an instructor. There's nothing intrinsically difficult in mountain flying. Any moderately competent PPL holder can do it. But there are a number of things that can catch you out....:(

Davidt,

There are lots of bilingual instructors!

Slim_slag and GRP,

A site authorisation is about 5 hours for the first one, which will include an hour or two of general mountain flying training. Subsequent ones for other altiports would be shorter.

There are no official currency requirements other than the 6 month limit on a site authorisation. However, if you are renting a check flight would be normal after 4 weeks away. For fledgling mountain pilots (like me), post-qualification flying is quite tightly controlled as well. The risk of breaking things is very high, so I have been going through a process of getting cleared for solo flight at altisurfaces, one by one - despite theoretically being allowed to go to all of them. And I wouldn't have it any other way! Each altisurface has its own specific characteristics, and a cautious approach is needed.