Captains interfering with the FO's flying

[Barrelroll]

Some captains I fly with has the bad habit of telling you how to fly when it is your leg to fly or even worse interferes with your flying. Most of these captains, when it is their leg to fly does not fly so well themselves. I am not talking about training captains teaching a new FO on line. This is captains who does it from habit, regardless of how the FO fly or how experienced the FO is.

I am a First Officer who find this extremely annoying! Are there any other FOs out there who feel the same way and how do you deal with it? What do you do to enjoy the day's flying when you unfortunately get rostered with such a captain?

Any advise welcome or similar experiences welcome.

Barrelroll

[S76Heavy]

Any chance you might ask them if it's alright to practice your P1 skills by acting like the commander of the A/C, and the captain not interfering unless absolutely necessary, instead giving you a thorough debrief after the flight? It seems to work in our company..

[FWA NATCA]

Barrelroll,

If this is a constand habit and politely saying something doesn't help, then have a talk with your chief pilot. This problem occurs between controllers too, because some individuals perceive themselves as super controllers, or in your case the captains perceive themselves as SUPER PILOT.

Some Captains who do this think that they are just being helpful or providing instruction, so they don't realize that they may be actually interfering. Discuss how your leg of the flight is going to be run prior to pulling away from the gate, then if during the flight the Captain continues to interfere, ask him if you are doing something wrong that you are not aware of, then work from there.


Mike

[411A]

As a training/check and line Captain, here is my perspective...

On flights that are not training (ie, most line flights), I do not in any way interfere with the First Officer when he is the PF, and generally the operation goes very smoothly. However, there can be occasions when the Captain sees a situation developing, of which the F/O is not aware, and in these cases the Captain has a responsibility to speak up....diplomatically is the preferred method, otherwise the comments can be construed as "interferring", and sometimes are not well received.

First Officers must remember however that the Captain is assigned to the flight as the Commander (ie, ultimate responsibility) and the company/regulatory authorities will hold him liable in the event of an incident.

[Max Angle]

Quite agree with 411a, when I first got my command one of my biggest worries was that I had little experience in supervising and monitoring someone elses flying which in effect is what you are doing when you are PNF and the Captain. It turned out to not really be a problem as the huge majority of FOs in the company are very able and very easy to work with.

As an FO I used to dislike skippers who would give you the leg and then spend the whole time telling you what to do. I used to think "well why don't you fly it and I will do the radio". I make a real effort not to picky about the other guys operation and when I do need to say something to do it as diplomatically as possible. I also realise that it is much harder for the FO to say something to me and try to foster the sort of flightdeck atmosphere where they find it easy to do so. I think you will find that the majority of guys who hassle and interfere with FO's are little under confident of thier own abilities and as you said are not that special themselves, it's just thier way of coping with it.

BUT, at the end of the day the guy in the left seat is in charge and the guy in the right seat is not and there are times when you just have to bite your lip and get on with it despite what your feelings are. A saying I often hear at work is "if everyone was the same it would be boring", unless things are getting unsafe I would just let it wash over you, the next day you will probably fly with someone else anyway.

Eventually you will be in a position to set the tone for the day and it's very nice to be able to do that, you may find however that from the left seat things are not quite as black and white as they sometimes appear from the right.

[Pilot Pete]

I don't think there are many F/O's out there who don't understand that the Captain has ultimate responsibility and must jump in when something is happening that the F/O (PF) is not dealing with. I think that is a different case to what Barrelroll is describing. I have flown with two such characters, one immesurably worse than the other. Everyone knows who he is within said airline, including the pilot management but they do nothing about him. It has even got to the point that dozens, and I mean dozens of F/O's have refused to fly with him. He insists the aircraft is flown 'his way' and if you make a selection that is not 'his way' he will jump in and correct it by making selections for you. He is in my opinion arrogant, blinkered, over confident (no brief and no navaids set up despite my repeated requests during descent) and dangerous (he insists on keeping VNAV in virtually to glide capture and so keeps updating the FMC, head down, in the busy TMA whilst you are trying to fly the thing. In the end you call up the fix page and work your descent out on that as the map keeps disappearing as he constructs more and more waypoints as the controller gives you another vector.) His flying is nothing to be proud of (300kts downwind on a visual approach at night with a 30kt tailwind at circuit altitude) and everytime you say anything on the RT, make an MCP selection, fill in the Ops Return, make a comment about a news article, mention that the No.1 is a nice girl.......you are wrong. Period. Only two ways to handle him.

1. Say nothing and sit there and fume, then refuse to fly with him, or,
2. Confront his bullying attitude and make him aware you are not willing to accept it, which has worked for most. You are still wrong, but he is less overbearing whilst you are flying.

What should be done? He should not be commanding an aircraft in my opinion........let alone training people in them!

PP

[BlueEagle]

From the above posts, you will be able to gather that, hopefully, pain in the arse captains are very much in the minority?

If you are flying as directed by your company SOPs then, in the perfect world, there should be no reason for any interference. Unfortunately you will, throughout your career, come across individuals who want to place their own interpretation on SOPs and one has to hope that such people are very few and far between.

If there are legitimate short cuts that can safely be taken then the captain can offer these as a suggestion to you but should, provided you remain within the bounds of a safe operation, let you do your own thing.

What you are experiencing is much the same as most of us have experienced at some time in the past and the advice given in the above posts, ranging from 'grin and bear it' because tomorrow should be better through to speaking to your CP is all valid. Ideally the path with the least confrontation is the way to go but as a professional pilot you naturally want to fly safely so, in each case, you must make your choice.

Look forward to the day you become a captain! :)

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Barrelroll]

Thanks for the replies,

To those captains posting their views, I fully appreciate the responsability of being in command of the flight having been a Training Captain on a smaller type in a different airline myself. My goal was the following: when I flew as a training captain training a new FO or Captain on line I tried to impart as much knowledge as possible, even to the point of overkill, no interference with the flying though, unless very necessary. But when the line training was complete, the emphasize shifts to captain, FO, building a coherent team and an atmosphere that will enhance synergy and teamwork on the flightdeck, since having been an FO before I knew what negative effect an overbearing and interfereing captain has on CRM and teamwork and therefore the overall safety of the flight.

To those who suggest that I refuse to fly with certain pilots and/or report the culprits to the chief pilot I am unfortunately in the following situaion: (1) The chief pilot is one of the culprits, (2) the company I fly for are not very structured and if any FO refuse to fly with any captain it will be severely looked upon and will most likely prevent future promotion, (3) any FOs promotion depends on one person, namely the chief pilot mentioned in (1), (4) in this company (by now I am wondering myself what on earth am I doing in this company!?) bad habit power trip captains make out about half of the captains I fly with.

Any advise for that?

Barrelroll:confused:

[S76Heavy]

My only advice would be too keep sending your CV..:(

[Pilot Pete]

Take your skills to pastures new......as has been pointed out already, these characters are usually the exception rather than the norm so the fact that your airline has so many of them with the role model of your CP for them to copy then things aren't going to change quickly!

PP

[BlueEagle]

Have to agree with S76Heavy and PilotPete, possibly time to start looking for something better, no rush, don't let yourself be pushed but a move would definitely seem to be in order, just so long as it is at your behest and without raising a storm!:)

From my own bitter experience I can assure you that even when you are 200% correct it will be very difficult to win if you try to take on the chief pilot!

[Rumbo de Pista]

I feel that, (training sectors aside) although most of the FOs I fly with are very competent, there are a few who just don't know the job properly, and need some help and 'pointers' from time to time. Although there's nothing wrong with giving sectors away to them, they require a more 'kindergarten' approach.

A good, well-informed, FO, who knows the books well and can think for himself in terms of the 'big picture', should not be subject to frequent interruption.

A borderline-competent FO may well have a different (and unsatisfactory) experience.

[seat 0A]

I think Rumbo has a valid point here.

Barrelroll, have you talked to other f/o`s in your company, wether they have had similar experiences with said captains?
Have you taken a good hard look in the mirror?
I`m not saying you are the problem here, but being able to objectively judge your own performance is a very important ability in any pilot (even more so for captains, btw)

[Barrelroll]

Rumbo and Seat 0A, I agree with you that some FO's are not up to standard and might require pointers from time to time, but such pointers have to be very tactful; or better yet, after the flight as a debriefing. If it is done any other way you will not achieve anything but disrespect. If you as a captain have to interfere or feel that pointers are necessary on a regular basis it means one of two things: (1) The FO is problematic and not up to standard, he must be reported and something must be done about it or (2) you are an interfering captain by habit. Look in the mirror and ask yourself which one is it? If it is the number (1), report the not up to standard FO to the chief pilot.

This is not only my viewpoint, I have talked to most of the FO's in the company and they all feel the same way about the interfering captains. Don't forget that I am looking at this very real problem (and an issue it is judged by the number of views this subject has recieved) not only from an FO's point of view, but from a Captain and a Training Captain's point of view as well. I am just not willing to accept it as an FO, because it interferes with general CRM principles (e.g. teamwork and a positive atmosphere) and therefore safety. Safety should be your number one concern as a commander.

Barrelroll

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

I hope I'm not the culprit in Pilot Petes mob(slime green??)
For what its worth I have been in this scenario when RHS and have sat and stewed and fumed for months on end as I was attached on a "married roster" with these clowns.Ironically I always flew badly with these guys as I was reluctant to actualy do anything for fear of criticism.Bad show all round.
Eventualy I gritted my teeth and had a sound head to head with the guy.I am quite happy to be PNF on both sectors but if you want to give me the leg please let me fly it!.There is nothing worse than being the Captains "human autopliot". I know of guys who simply hand over control when the interferance starts.
Anyway this seemed to clear the air and things improved greatly.The other guy is reminded that you are an adult,have opinions and are not his lap dog.
All the above assumes that you fly a safe operation of course.

[Barrelroll]

Homer, handing over control does seem to do the trick. At one point we were leveling off at low level from a fast climb when the captain interfered, I could not hand over control because he was so far behind the program that we (or he then) would have busted the altitude. Thanks for the advice.

Barrelroll

[Pilot Pete]

Homer,

No, definately not as my ´slime` unfortunately slipped away some time back!

Rumbo,

I agree completely about `borderline F/Os`, but do be careful with ´giving sectors away` as that may be interpretted as a captain who deigns to allow the F/O to drive once in a while, which may not be the best CRM for a competent F/O! It is funny how this debate can be seen from both sides; there are plenty of captains ho need an eye keeping on them, just as there are plenty of F/Os who need the same! My argument would be that perhaps there shouldn`t be.

PP

[tailscrape]

Pete,

You forgot to mention that he wears his shades in the TERMINAL at NIGHT........

What a bloke.

Homer,

I don't think it is you either. Big kiss xxxxx.


On a positive note, after I had a "discussion" in Girona with this fella, I asked him how old he is. Late 50's now, so only about 3 years to go guys......

Good luck all.

[Ignition Override]

Pilot Pete: Is there a group of pilots there who are part of a union branch, such as "Professional Standards" who guys/gals can appeal to, especially when people's styles or personalities clash? When there is a choice in the US, going straight to a Chief Pilot or Check Airman etc can be considered very bad form, depending on the country you live in.

A few people who simply ignore the low-profile solutions and go straight to a Chief Pilot over small matters (flicking the battery switch to shutdown the APU or forcefully holding the spoiler handle down for a few seconds when landing, in order to get a smoother touchdown etc), often want to promote themselves into different flying jobs which add a title to their job description, and would be considered chicken-****s at my airline. If significant, repeated safety violations happen, the Check Airmen hear about it somehow through the grapevine, anyway.

By the way, if someone pretty well calls for "flaps zero" and "slats retract" etc within a few knots of the right speeds, tries to level off at the required altitudes, tries hard to navigate (and dodge thunderstorms or major vertical cloud build-ups), tries to remember to call for checklists and flies the approach with a good effort at such important things, then jerk Captains should not interfere with anyone's different techniques or styles.

If such Captains are not getting much 'trim' at home (you know what I mean...), then maybe a good deal can be found with a jevrouw in Amsterdam, not far from Centraal Station.

[Pilot Pete]

Not as such I don't think I.O. Most UK airlines have a Flight Safety Officer who acts as the go-between where safety is an issue. Again it comes down to personalities and whether on not you feel that this particualr individual is approachable or not. I have always 'chatted' to an onside training captain (who has bags full of descretion) about such issues to get their advice from the safety/ how to best deal with it in the eyes of the company point of view. They are usually pretty good and it serves the purpose of having spoken to someone in the training department who can do a little research/ corrective training whilst giving the benefit of the doubt (on the first occassion)! The only problem with this particular individual is more to do with the 'lack' of correction from anyone in training/ management even though he is well known for it in the company by all. That speaks volumes for the management and I for one am happy to have nothing to do with them any more.

Diving straight in to the Chief Pilot can be overkill, but if it's a serious safety breach then you as an individual have a duty to say something no matter how unpleasant that may be.

[BlueEagle]

If you felt you had to go straight in to the CP hopefully you would first tell the individual involved? Wouldn't be going to the office without him/her knowing you were going to complain about him/her?

[witchdoctor]

I suppose everyone could be grateful that it is only their flying being interfered with;)

[Pilot Pete]

Yes Blue Eagle, having done everything 'reasonable' first of course.

PP

[Reheater]

politely say "You have control" to the interfering Capt let him continue that sector and the subsequent sectors as P1 and annotate the journey log to the effect you handed over control to him/her. Then go home knowing you have behaved professionally in a difficuilt situation.

[jetjackel]

Interesting topic as I have heard many FO's reflect on Captains that "give duel" while they are flying. I'm not talking about situations that envolve safety or variation from SOP's, but technique.

As a fairly experienced MD-80 instructor and Check Airman, I have given many Line Checks and watched crew interaction. In my experience, when a Captain continually corrects an FO, due to technique, it is usually because the FO is doing something the Captain isn't use to or hasn't seen. Possibly even flying better, especially when it's "hands on, autopilot off". It usually comes from lack of experience or lack of confidence on the Captains part.

If the FO is operating in a "relm" the Captain is not use to, the Captains confidence may be envolved. There is more than one pilot/Captain out there that shouldn't be in the position. I believe the definition of the PIC is "the master of the aircraft". Lowering the flaps or Landing Gear at a different time/position, say on a Visual Approach, is no reason to "prompt" or "pimp" the SIC.

Everyone doesn't fly the airplane the same and every situation can be different. As long as safety and SOP's are adhered to the FO should be left alone to fly "his leg" and his skills respected.

[greybeard]

Captains "Interfering" on an F/O's sector????

Apart from the rogue types who occupy BOTH sides of too many cockpits we should take a broader view perhaps.

The operation is prioritised in general as,

SAFETY
PASSENGER COMFORT
SHEDULE
ECONOMY

In my present position few of my F/Os have more than 500 hours and are on wide bodied jets, so there are skill, exposure, cultural, authority gradient situations where CRM skills are needed to ensure the operation is as above and the "knowledge" can be passed on as well.

"Knowing" everything and always "being right" is not the possession of any seat in the cockpit, BUT the bias could/should perhaps be, apart from the rogues, on the side of the Captain.

Walking the ailerons during the T/Off roll and on final with a spoiler deflection in calm conditions cause comments from me, is that interference?
Coarse use of the speed control instead of "profile", busting speed restrictions below 10.000 as it "saves time", is comment interference?
Taking over at the flare when the 2nd "10" has sounded, where does that fit?
Calling up to 100 feet early on altitudes to show how sharp you are, Comment?
Calling "Glide slope" below the minima on a visual approach, comment?

Physical interference is at times not only necessary; it is required from BOTH sides. Should that be an unnecessary occurrence, only the two people there at the time can say, as can the QAR/FDR/CVR if SAFETY was in any way compromised and the appropriate reports made
I was an F/O for 13 years, the game hasn't changed much in this area, the young know it all, get rid of the old farts as they are wrong and in my seat. I am about to give my seat up as I have achieved the "fart" status, so you can have it, look after it and BE SAFE.

[LRdriver]

Heres a different one..

Whats the best way to deal with a hot-shot F/O who has a hard time dealing with a younger (age-wise) captain?
Having spoken to the other captains of the company (all older) it seems I might have a issue I have to tackle at some point. I knew that I had to confront this having become a Bizjet captain at a young age, but am slightly unsure how the best way is to handle this. The guy in question is technically competant and usually makes good decisions as the flying pilot. But the plot is sometimes lost when something unexpected happens requiring a change in plan. This has resulted in me having to, as PIC, to tell him what to do. What has happened is that he tries to override(or question) me acting as if we are equal in the cockpit..
Also during debriefing about the different scenarios, he has a hard time accepting any constructive critique from myself (as a "captain-in-training" as FO's are, the assumption is that they should accept this as part of the deal..)
Coming from an instructional background and lots of experience in type, I do not "prompt" everything in the cockpit but let the FO's do their own thing, or ask them to tell me what the plan is if I need it. I have, as yet, not had to take over the airplane, as again, they are proficient guys. I'm just asking you older guys who have flown with your share of the good, bad and the ugly..

And yes, the person in question will know its about him when he reads this..

[411A]

LRdriver
IF diplomacy fails, point to the four bars on your shoulder and TELL the offending person that if he/she doesn't like the way you run the ship, he should take his/her concerns to the fleet manager.
Has always worked for me.
In the two cases that I have had to do so, the First Officer in question was demoted to a lower fleet....and he deserved all he got, as many others had complained as well.
SOME (a very few) never learn.

[maxy101]

Greybeard, Shouldn't the non handler call "Glideslope " if you're below the profile when visual? What's to stop you flying it into the undershoot?

[greybeard]

Maxi101,

Yes all the calls are necessary to prevent the "undershoot", but this one was below 200', on the PAPI.

Some also want to know the body angle to rotate to in the flare as Quote "I find the flare easier if I look inside a bit". As most of our approaches are in VMC?????

We have developed CRM to a good level, it's only a few who toss their biscuits around in all seats, some people need help, advice, correction and occasionally a little "foot reflexoligy" (My foot, their reflex).

SAFETY is the game, be carefull of gravity, IT SUCKS.

[Pilot Pete]

Having followed this thread and posted comments already, it appears that the subject in question has changed to 'incompetent F/O'swho require a captains intervention. I don't think there is any question that a captain should intervene if the F/O is getting it wrong and questions like 'should the captain call a below glideslope deviation in the last 200' when on a visual approach', well yes, if he feels that the aircraft is low he should call it, as should the F/O as PNF for the same reason. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be interfering. If I called it and the captain felt it unnecessary due to him being on the papis I would at least hope that he 'double checked' to ensure the correct picture no matter what the papis were saying, and again, it comes down to good airmanship. If I were wrong I would appreciate comments (about anything), and frequently get them, as that is how I learn. If comments aren't forthcoming I will tend to ask for an opinion on 'what went wrong'.

I think the subject as posted is more to do with the (very few) captains who insist on things being done their way and pushing buttons, moving levers and doing things without request from the PF (FO) for no good reason. That is interfering, and as already pointed out leads to a breakdown in CRM and degradation of safety. So let's keep the subject at the forefront and not get into this 'too old captain/ jumped up F/O' rubbish. Neither of these types deserve a place on the flight deck.

So all the points that you have brought up greybeard appear to be about a lack of or bad flying skills which need rectification by way of training (or in my case just simply pointing out what I am doing wrong during any line sector). There is no question about this, but the original question, I think concerns interference with no good reason.

PP

[greybeard]

Pilot Pete,

Yes it got a little off the track, the OVER-RIDING factor must be SAFETY, and some people consider advice, assistance and corrective measures as interference.
Regretably some people DO push, pull and move things when they think it is "needed" and this is also unacceptable.
This is where CRM, assertivness and CHIRPS are needed and should be used as a way of reinstating some sanity in the cockpit.

I took the original comments to be a bit of a winge as to some people resisting being corrected/assisted/motivated along the learning process, sorry if I got it on the wrong bias.

In the last week I have had one try to run me off the side, one call for the gear during the rotate while the wheels were still on the ground, (but the IVSI had the required climb rate Captain!!!!)
So life goes on and we do our best, admit OUR OWN many and varied errors, omissions and mistakes as well, band width will prevent my listing of my own then and regrettably still now stuffups


There really are only three kinds of Pilots
Those who have stuffed up,
Those who will stuff up,
And the dangerous ones who lie they never have stuffed up.

The F/Os of today are hopefully the Captains of tomorrow, I hope they learn from our examples, good and bad, and do a better job than those who have gone before.

[Captain Stable]

Actually, I'd disagree with those categories... There are those who have stuffed up and will do so again and happily admit it. And there are those who have stuffed up, will do so again, but are incapable of admitting they ever made an error in their life, and consequently are incapable of learning.

[Plane*jane]

If we go back to the original thread Barrelroll posted we are not, I believe talking about egotistical F/Os trying to strut their stuff, but the real (but thankfully infrequent) well meaning but interfering Capt who keeps up a running commentary of "left a bit, down a bit" imposing his style on the flight. We have a couple and as far as safety is concerned well I would agree that from the RH seat it is annoying irritating and sometimes darned dangerous, as one obediently follows what is prompted and "backseat drivers" are NOT in the loop so don't always make the right decision.

Behaviour wise it DOES show a lack of confidence, but it is in the Capt not the F/O who does not feel in control so has this burning need to impose the way he would fly the flight in order to feel comfortable.

Please let us dismiss the bleedin' obvious anecdotal stories that are clear safety issues, that's NOT a debate here that any sensible pilot would have.

But this subtle erosion of an F/Os esteem, confidence in making quite ordinary flying decisions is undermining and destructive. As a mature person, but newly into aviation, I handle this by looking at the prompt eg " you need to descend now, or turn now" carefully decide if it fits in with my situational planning and either comply or modify it "I'll take descent in 2 minutes / yes I think I'll turn now" rather than dumbly following orders. I think it is important to "own" the the decision yourself. The flight sector must be the responsibility of the PF although the Capt has the authority of the flight. CRM of course emphasises the process of decision making and is quite clear, but I wonder how many pilots take note. Let's be sure that flights are NOT on the solo Cpt standby copilot level.

Two captains who have this problem from different backgrounds, both very nice people indeed and didn't realise their interference. One is ex instructor and hasn't learned how to stop, so a lighthearted banter to him about "Is this lesson one or two on the C152?" caused a startled apology, he was quite shamefaced and we giggle about it now. The second is trickier as with some personal problems, single crew military mentality which he knows he slips into, and unfamiliarity on a new type gave him very low tolerance threshold of anyone he flew with. I tackled this by explaining in detail exactly how I planned to fly the sector (wx conditions etc) and before we got to (say) TOD or approach once we knew what was coming up I would then explain to him how I planned to fly it with options. The essence of achieving trust in the cockpit is being able to predict others behaviour so by letting him know what I was planning to do early seemed to defuse things. He then had the chance to put his views forward at a time when we could both consider them and stop this sudden "turn right now" "Call visual and if you can't see the airfield I'll take control because I have" (that was a beaut)

Going to the CP, passing control to the captain is all pretty destructive to everyone's morale, so anything you can think of to restore HIS confidence is going to be good. Now that all the line trainers will have completed their NOTECHS training by the end of March, hopefully they will start to pick up this problem on OPCs LPCs as they should, and gently but firmly get a more evenhanded performance from BOTH pilots in the cockpit

[Captain Stable]

One of the best thought-out posts I have seen in some time. Thanks, Jane! :)

[Lucky Angel]

I am a f/o myself but thank god in the company i work for these kind of captains are indeed a minority. The way i coped with it is to folloe SOP's as much as i can unless it is not practicall to do so. When such a situation arises and i have to divert from the sop's i just say "non standard selecting........."
I once had a Captain try to teach me how to do a xwind ldg while i was on final approach(as if i never did one b4 ) .... I pretended i was listening and did my own thing. Then on the next sector i did exacly the same to him and when he turned around and said he knew how to do it. I said so did i and told him that now he knows how i felt when he did it..He apologised and never did it again.

I am a f/o myself but thank god in the company i work for these kind of captains are indeed a minority. The way i coped with it is to folloe SOP's as much as i can unless it is not practicall to do so. When such a situation arises and i have to divert from the sop's i just say "non standard selecting........."
I once had a Captain try to teach me how to do a xwind ldg while i was on final approach(as if i never did one b4 ) .... I pretended i was listening and did my own thing. Then on the next sector i did exacly the same to him and when he turned around and said he knew how to do it. I said so did i and told him that now he knows how i felt when he did it..He apologised and never did it again.

Oh by the way, can you imagine how bad it is when 2 captains fly together LOL

[411A]

....OR, a regular line captain and a training/check captain together.
Having been on both sides of the aforementioned fence, can only say.......leave the other guy alone to do his job.
But some just cannot resist sticking their oar in...usually mucking up the waters somewhat....or a lot.

[Pilot Pete]

Well I've just spent three long nights with another one of these characters, the first two nights with a jumpseat F/O who's new to type observing. He even contemplated going sick before the end of the trip as he didn't want to spend his first few sectors of training getting what had been dished out to me! Now I know I am far from the 'rounded' product but I am safe and have a pretty good grasp of what's going on but for 5 sectors over two nights I received little 'digs' constantly, like 'ha, told you so' in this battle to prove that he knew more than me, which, let's face it, with 30+ years flying experience he should do! I found it undermining and had to bite my tongue constantly. When he cocked up and I tried to point out why the marshaller hot thrown his batons out of the cot he told me that I didn't understand marshalling signals and should look them up! He was wrong but refused to admit it and blamed the marshaller for our bad parking position. This is what is alarming, he is NEVER wrong in his eyes, despite constant mistakes which when pointed out (diplomatically) he has an excuse for, usually to blame the F/O. He even left an engine running, turned off the beacon and had the loaders approaching the a/c while he filled in the tech log.

So how do you deal with this? He is another character who is well known in his company for this. You cannot just stand your ground as a pitched battle will ensue. You cannot just point out your reasoning as this is dismissed offhand. All you can do is endure and remain professional, but he tries your professionalism every time you fly with him and it is very hard not to get annoyed whilst trying to concentrate on the job inhand. The saddest thing is I actually learnt some bits and peices whilst he was training the other guy but my lasting memory is not of this small positive.

Interfering without touching a control, another gift of the few.....

PP

[Sheep Guts]

I fly an Otter multi-crew. All be it mostly VFR , we are still flying around paying Vacationers from the States.

Its my first Multi-Crew Job , and my first as a Captain. I dont have any Co-pilot time. So initailly during my training to line where I am I did alot of no-nos. I have nearly 4000HRS Single Pilot IFR Turbo prop and recip experience. So the transition was hard. There seems to be no real good books on the topic Ive found either.YOU HAVE TO THINK ALOUD.

Anyway I have made some decisions initailly that , I believe were ok, but I could have attacked differently.

One day we were approaching our base Airport in marginal weather. We were to do a Left hand pattern to land. I was visual with the runway on myside on downwind. I wasnt sure if my F/O was, I asked are you visual, he replied no, So I took control using standard phraseology " I have control" he replied "you have control". I turned the aircraft onto final, then handed over again. So the F/O could continue. Is this the correct way to do things?

In this multi crew environ obviously safety is vital No.1 issue. In achieving this crews need to bo coesive and have single contentment that either one of the crew knows what he or she are doing and where we are heading with this hunk of metal.

Information loop is vital. When Im on approach and I am flying and Im out of tolerance or even in tolerance and slightly off Ill tell the F/O strarght away "Right of Centre line correcting" ,"Ref
+ 15 correcting or decent rate checked" I beleive this is important. I f you have the slightest unease let it be voiced, dont bottle up your wait until its out of tol to talk. I let all the F/Os I fly with, be aware of this. We all need to be happy with whats happeneing.

Am I still green and over sensitive to flying with someone else?Probably so. Im still learning this Multi Crew stuff and I believe its somethings thats not a complete science and is allways evolving especially with the Technology advancements in our sector.

Regards
Sheep

[HugMonster]

PilotPete, the captain you were flying with cannot be dealt with (except on a single flight) with CRM.

You really need to raise problems like that with your Flight Safety Officer, one of the trainers, fleet manager or chief pilot.

A starting point might be to discuss it with other FO's.

[Pilot Pete]

Hug,

As I mentioned it's all been done. He is renowned amongst the F/Os and most of the captains too. He also has a friend in a VERY high place. Rumour has it that action is planned. I hope so for everyone's sake. In the meantime all you can do is try to keep it safe.

PP

[Rumbo de Pista]

Pete,

Careful out there - you have effectively 'de-cloaked' and should beware the funny handshakes - a BALly funny lot if you ask me...

With your company, you must be in it for the long haul (as it were). Tread carefully and be like Dad. Keep Mum.

Ten years or thereabouts to wait for the left seat in IT is a long time to fail at the end of. There have been a number of nights of the short knives...

[swish266]

A long time ago I saved a possible B763 tail-strike on a landing with a pampered Vietnamese Captain. I just put my hand behind the levers to let him know that Vref -7 is not a healthy speed at 100'... Cost me USD 10000 - 10 months delayed command...
But Guys...
1) Da Capt is in Charge
2) If in doubt hav a betta look at the line above
3) If u still in doubt have another look etc.

Ah, by the way he was the Fleet Komisar (dont know how u spell it in eng). No jokes, they still hav them there...

[Ignition Override]

Very good comments up there, and Plane Jane hit the nail on the head really well. I wonder how such Captains can look forward to going to work or make it to retirement age without health problems.

I just heard about one of our narrowbody (two-person cockpit) Captains here, who constantly reminds (all are very experienced) FOs how to fly the plane, and many are now bidding around any and all flying with the guy, who I do not know. More than a few of our FOs were Captains on this plane ( not to mention beforehand, on Jetstreams, ATRs, SF-340s, CRJ, DC-9, 737, F-100, military S-3s, (E) P-3s, T-37/38, Coast Guard Falcons, C-141s, E-3 AWACS, C-5s....a few also had helo experience) until after 9/11 or even a bit later.

[Smokie]

Pilot Pete,

An ASR is in order for the " engine still running incident"
Staight forward really, safety was compromised.

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

It's a sad fact that what we have here is one of the last great CRM failings of the industry.Every airline has at least one of these pratish characters.Everybody including the management knows who they are.They are very often trainers.A culture develops that "he's not that bad once you get to know him" or "as long as you do things his way he's alright". They become a crewing nightmare as people refuse to fly with them or take sickies.Every now and then they have tea and bickies with the boss and are given a wee half arsed warning.They then revert to type.Meanwhile perfectly good pilots have their careers set back for years and suffer the financial penalty
We are guilty as a group of condoning this as the norm and I cringe when I hear guys apologising for these twits(who are invariably higher payed,older and uglier than them).
Here is the long and short of it.
They are almost always old mates of the boss and at the end of the day, it's just too awkward for him to sack the pilock.Simple as that.

[411A]

Are they now?
Trainers are PAID by the company to train new guys the COMPANY way, like it or not....and many don't, it would appear.

In an airline, you gotta have standards, and trainers/check pilots are there for just that reason (amoung others), to enforce standards.

Otherwise, it can degenerate into rodeo cowboy time....and the picture is sometimes not pretty as a result.

[Skaz]

sometimes the actions of the crew cannot be viewed in isolation from the corporate culture they happen in.

I am employed as pilot in a charter company. I have completed FSO training and would have been appointed as the FSO, but for the small hiccup of having fallen out of favour with the Director (owner) of the co. Something to do with not keeping my mouth shut re safety issues.Go figure.

Morale, motivation, loyalty are all rock bottom, fairly much non-existent actually. 90% contibuteable (spelling?) to the management style of the owner (divide and rule, treat them like mushrooms) and the other 9% the interaction of the Ops Manager with the crews, swearing at them on the phone, putting the phone down in their ears or actually ignoring them like a piece of furniture if you go to he's office to speak to him.

I have spoken to the Ops Man re one pilot that is regarded by more than one colleague as reckless and dangerous. Got the furniture treatment for my troubles.

Had same conversation with owner, no response at all. Didnt even blink. Cause this pilot in question is one of he's blue eyed boys.......

[Onan the Clumsy]

Captains Ha! Wait till you have the passengers telling you how to fly the damn thing.

In my illustrious career flying jumpers, I've received a lot of airborne advice. One specific character comes to mind who used to lean over and twiddle the power settings. I have to admit though that he did own the aircraft - and he was my mentor and good friend. Still I just put up a sign that said "Operation of the controls from the rear seat is forbidden - THIS MEANS YOU'

Didn't stop him though.

[BlueEagle]

Skaz I think yours is a CRM problem that includes the management? You certainly have a problem that needs to be properly addressed and it shouldn't take an accident to do it. In the UK there is a confidential reporting system that is anonymous, does your aviation authority have such a system?
To what extent do captains interfere with your flying?

Onan the Clumsy Not sure how you tackle your problem. Possibly you could point out to him that if any kind of incident should occur, even totally unrelated, after he had touched the controls the witness statements from other passengers might cause your licencing authority to withdraw his licence to operate, either as an owner or a pilot?

[Skaz]

Lack of accidents / incidents does not reflect a safe operation, not by a long shot.

In this country I do not believe there is a CHIRP or ASRS in place yet. In RSA there is, but not user friendly. You cant file over the net, you have to post or fax.

Captains interfering.....difficult to answer as we are mostly the same level of experience, 1000tt to 3000tt. Used to have lots of two crew operations but now fewer such ops.

[Captain Stable]

Lack of accidents / incidents does not reflect a safe operation, not by a long shot.Never was a more true word spoken.

Conversely, a safe operation does not mean an operation without safety incidents. What makes the organisation safe is learning from the "near miss" incidents, modifying the system and structures to remove one possibility of an accident in the future - in short, seeing possible problems and being proactive.

There are two types of pilot - those who have had an incident and those who will.

The trick consists in staying as long as possible in the first category and being aware of the dangers, of the safety margins and not eroding those margins without being conscious of them. Therefore, while Onan's friend leaned over and interfered with the power settings, it was not necessarily dangerous in itself. In interfering with Onan's attention (distracting him), in interfering with his situational awareness and in irritating him (adding stress) it was dangerous. All this erodes safety margins. All this therefore increases the danger of the flight.

Here is where most of the problems of the subject of the thread come in.

Increased stress on the PNF (the F/O), decreased situational awareness, increased distraction all erode safety if the Captain is incapable of interfering unnecessarily. If the skipper is not a line trainer, any comments or "helpful pointers" should be saved until the post-flight debrief. Otherwise keep operational in-flight talk to SOP. Personal chit-chat is acceptable within the constraints of the Ops Manual (some say nothing except operational talk below 10,000')

Yes, the Captain is in command. Therefore he should only interfere if safety is compromised or the F/O is departing SOP without pre-briefing it. Otherwise he has no right to meddle unnecessarily and such interference should be reported by one method or another.

[Skaz]

BlueEagle, sir respectfully, I do not agree that the probs in our company are of a CRM nature. Yes, lack of communication is a HUGE contributing factor, but is only one af many bad traits in management.

There has recently been very well known (in the company) incidents where the owner/director has blatantly lied to the crews involved in one specific type operation, and also to the individual appointed as 'Manager' of these operations. We were told one thing, this other guy was told the exact opposite the very next day and we end up butting heads and each party thinks the other is being difficult on purpose. Meanwhile we dont have the same gen!Not only was the crews involved, but the 'new' manager was told he replaced the 'old' one, while neither the crews nor the 'old' manager were told! Imagine the confusion and unco-operativeness pervailing in the ops when two managers give you different instructions and both tell you not to listen to the other....

This problem in one of the Management Culture. Specifically the owner of the company. The Ops Manager follows he's lead and the chief pilot and 'new' manger for specialized ops are both just puppet figures with no real 'weight' in the organization.

Not to mention the fact that we operate without a FSO, no CRM, no DG training, no structured training roster or plan, crews have to pay for their own training, flighttests, a/c hire for the tests, you dont get helped out by Roster when you have to Test.

It is plain dumb luck nobody had been killed yet. oh, dont get me wrong, there have been incidents up the jingjang. One had a big a/c blocking the main rwy for quite a while and other a/c had to divert. Maintenacne I believe....owner saw it happen, turned around and walked off, didnt go check on "he's" crew/pilots, did not as much as even phone to find out if everybody was ok.

This guy is the single most dangerous factor in every aspect of operations/safety etc etc ...nothing can be done, cause he owns the company

[BlueEagle]

Yes Skaz, I do agree that you have more than just a CRM problem, (I am inclined to include communications within CRM, by the way), it seems as though you have one real 'cowboy' at the top who should be removed or re-educated by your Aviation Authority, doesn't sound as though that is likely though, does it?
Which only really leaves you with one alternative, possibly not an easy one, but are there any other employers you can go to?
It is good that you air your problems here and maybe some others can offer their thoughts and possible solutions too.