Women in Aviation???

[drshmoo]

My question to you all is where do women in this industry stand? It seems many GA operators aren't that fond of the furry logbook. Some operators have an unofficial "No chicks policy" ~ is this founded?
:confused: :confused: :p :confused: :confused:

[RENURPP]

I have to say the pilot I regard as the best overall is a woman. I was fortunate enough to employ her yrs back, carry out a few endorsements, CIR renewals, be endorsed on aircraft by her, supervise her as an instructor and she flew with me as an F/O.
She is now a captain on bigger newer and faster aircraft than I and I bet she is doing it exceptionally well.


On the other hand I have the misfortune of flying with some of the worst, I would never employ them, doubt whether they would prove themselves competent to achieve an endorsement or pass a CIR, and as for instructing, I feel for the pilots who are trained by them. They are the ones who p[;ossibly have a few stamps in the "furry logbook".

No different to men just have to sort out the good from the bad in the interview process.

[High Altitude]

The laws of liable and the potential for litigation ensures that I tender my comments cautiously, however:-

I have found 1 female pilot over the years that has worked out. She was brilliant! Apart from that well er um er um er um I take the fith ammendment...

Can't help myself... The general public seem to like female pilots, and I must say that it is good to have female pilots in the working environment, like anything though it is the quality of pilot that counts. Gender is not an issue...

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Screw Jac]

:D :D :D

This topic is fraught with danger.....Bit like skipping through a minefield.

I was actually taught through the PPL by a female instructor, who was:

1. A great instructor
2. A good friend
3. A lady.

The individual in question is now an FO for a major airline!
Abilty and talent as HA said is the key.....
And I must have learned something from her as Im still here.

Id hate to see the days when quotas replace ability as the norm....

For the rest of the girls Ive met, some have been great aviators and great PEOPLE. Some didn't need to be able to fly except maybe undo one...... :eek: :eek: :eek:

But then again its really the individual. It certainly aint brain power that seperates the sexes, maybe a little physical strength and endurance...For those jobs requiring physical prowess a bloke will generally be better..


And I so advise...

[TurboOtter]

I have met some great female pilot
and I have met some "GREAT" female pilots;) :D :eek:

That said why did a female pilot land wheels up three times in different aircraft and still keep her job??
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[buzz box]

Its a bit like asking 'are short pilots better than tall pilots?' All depends on the person. I guess as women are a minority in aviation it is easier to judge them.

My first instructor was a lady who was brilliant, but ive also seen some shockers. Again, all depends on the person :)

[Foyl]

Women in this industry stand on their own two feet supported (or not) by their own ability. Like any other person.

[the wizard of auz]

My initial instructor was a female, the one that did my CSU retract was a female and the one that did my second twin endo was a female, all very good instructors and very nice people. I have a friend that owns a flying school and another one that had a PPL when I started flying that now drives twin turbines and yet another one that had a basic CPL about the time I got mine that is now driving twin turbines. one of my lecturers at collage was (and is) a very competant and knowladgable examiner of airmen. Out of all these people, only one has been silly enough to eat those very colourful earplugs thinking they were lollies provided by the company. :D but she made up for that by wearing the nicest tee shirts in class when we were studying (although it did make study hard).
I only know of one woman (that I know) has used the hairy logbook to advance her career (and she was a looker, I would have gladly employed her).
It is totally dependent on the person not the persons sex, I have met, by far, more silly blokes in this game that women, any way you wanna work the ratio.

[suspicious]

mmmm. so someone explain to me how a "female pilot" landed a job in Mount Isa with a straight CPL & MECIR. Couldn't have had more than 200TT.

now flying PIC in a C206 and F/O on their Bandit. :eek:

everyone I know that visited said company was told 1000 to 1500TT.

I am SURE it was based on her ability. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

bring on the minefield...... :p

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

Well said Suspicious.

I also heard about this low time female in Mount Isa.

Way back in about 1988 I missed out on a job. The job was given to a female by the chief pilot who was trying to get down "her pants". So I heard from other company pilots.

I was ready for an immediate start however they gave me the usual "not enough hours for insurance" bull.

This female had similar hours to me and did not even have her dangerous goods. She was told the job is her once if she can get her dangerous goods certificate over the weekend.

I already had a current dangerous good certificate

:mad:

About that time I also came across another very manipulative female pilot who had gone out with a few senior pilots in her time to rapidly progress her career.

Some people employ "furry resumes" whilst some women use a "furry resume to get a job".

Not all employers/females are so corrupt but unfortunately it does happen occasionally.

[redsnail]

a fury (perhaps furious) :eek: one or a furry (careless with the grooming) ;) one?

[Transition Layer]

So HA, how is your latest female pilot going?

[High Altitude]

Damn it I hate it when I get employees that I don't know about...

Whats her name???

[Transition Layer]

Looks like I may have been misinformed - had heard a certain female pilot working in BRM last year had landed a job with NAC? I guess you would know!

TL

[Big Jan]

Funny thing about a woman willing to further her career using the furry logbook.It takes an employer who is (Let us say) willing to inspect this type of log book for a woman to gain any advantage.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am quite sure that 99.9% of these employers would be male.Just an observation, but it goes to show that men do get to take advantage of the furry log book and are just as guilty of perpetuating this type of behaviour.
To the .1% of you employerina's out there,all I can say is You GO Girlfriend.
:D ;)

[Woomera]

When I saw the Thread Title, I was kinda hoping it would be about the positive contribution women make to aviation.

I got into trouble in a recent thread by bringing up WW2, but if it weren't for all of those young women ferry pilots, delivering everything from Spitfires, Lancasters, B17, etc, often solo from the factory or overseas, things would've taken a whole lot longer as the men were being consumed at a prodigious rate.
And that's just one example.

But I digress,
What Big Jan say's,
Funny thing about a woman willing to further her career using the furry logbook.It takes an employer who is (Let us say) willing to inspect this type of log book for a woman to gain any advantage.
IMHO just about sums it up.

If you are breaking your neck to work for suchlike or feel dissappointed because you couldn't get the "advantage" yourself in that manner, may I suggest that you are either in the wrong profession or looking for work in the wrong places.

Ask your mum, wife or girlfriend what she would think about such an employer??
Even more important still, how your work colleagues would feel about it.
I have never ever seen a situation like that, which was not ultimately destructive to the people involved.

[Menen]

Bagot. "And she didn't even have her dangerous goods"!

Some chief pilots like women who have dangerous goods - but it all depends on what you mean by "dangerous goods"....:D

[weasil]

PLEASE NOTE: The following comment is purely for entertainment value (sic) and will be denied if ever asked.


My boss recently told me that he will "NEVER hire another woman pilot".

[Mr Luvvie]

Ok how many males pilots have been hired by flashin' the furry log book? :eek:

[Woodrobm]

IF WOMEN WERE MENT TO FLY THE SKY WOULD BE PINK NOT BLUE!!!!

[Foyl]

Yeah Woodrobm, and if the sky belonged to men it would be beer scented and the clouds would be shaped like naked playboy models.

[Planned Root]

Whats wrong with that?

[Foyl]

Nothing I guess - could even look good against the pink sky background. Throw in a couple of male centrefold types and we've got a deal.

Now why do I get the impression that this thread is rapidly heading for Jet Blast? :D

[aero979]

Hi foyl

I saw a cloud in the shape of an imperial stormtrooper once!

:D :D :D :D :D

[huntsman]

i spoke to one of the few women pilots i came across in Darwin GA about the benefits of being female in this job.
her opinion - in GA - distinct DISadvantage
- beyond GA - distinct ADvantage

she's probably in the latter group now - good luck

[High Altitude]

One of the first femal pilots I met was years ago, if I had my logbook I could tell you when exactly.

Around 93/94 I was working in the Daly River / Port Keats area, Hardy Aviation had a base a Port Keats a rather quiet Aboriginal community for those of you who don't know. A female pilot persisted and persisted until she was based there and did a bl**dy good job if it. Has been on the heavy metal for a while now. LT - drop me a message if you get this.

HA.

[I'm gone!]

I can safely say that I have met FAR more absolute fr!ckin drongo MALE pilots than female, more than likely to do with ratios of male to female licence holders I am sure. However most of the female pilots I have had the pleasure to fly with were excellent pilots.

The "hairy logbook" exists without doubt, but I am sure that its use, ACTUAL use, is not as prevelant as we think.

We all have heard, and most likely said, at some stage that a certain female pilot has been guilty of using the "hairy logbook"

Women immediately stand out in the pilot community due to their vast minority( and the fact they are better to look at than hairy blokes!) just in the same way that male F/A's do in the cabin.

Best of luck to all that wish to make a career of this crazy flying game I say!

It is a hard enough road without the gender based bullsh!t.

Cheers all,

I'm gone!

[Knulp]

Wot sort of Parker pen time would you write in a furry log-book?

[skychaser]

Woomera, Thanks for saying something sensible. A close family friend flew Lancasters in England during the war. Also the odd spitfire. She flew into many a dangerous situation and, as far as I can make out, the women who did this were invaluable to the war effort. There were no "furry" logbooks then just brave, capable women who were respected for the job they did. Her husband was a fighter pilot in the RAF. She later took up gliding in Aus where she continued to do very well. There were quite a few women flying aircraft in WW2 at a time when it was not accepted in society for them to do so. Sometimes, when I read these forums I don't think the lot of women aviators has progressed at all. But then the problem is not with the women it is with the men in the industry who feel threatened by being around capable and intelligent women and whose only defence seems to deride and denigrate. Poor little boys.

[MIss Behaviour]

I've always wondered why more of these alleged casting couch scenarios don't backfire on people. Suppose that the CP or whomever it is that puts the 'hard word' on a pilot does the business so to speak, then still does not offer them a job. Who do they go running to then? Kind of like an armed hold up "hand over the money or I'll shoot'', you could still hand over the cash & still get shot.

I'd be interested to know what the min hrs requirement for pilots is for the insurance company used by the MtIsa mob? Thought most GA companies were 500-1000. How did they get around that one? Incidentally, how did they explain to you why the other pilot go the job over you?

Bagot Yes that sucks but fate can be a strange thing. It may have been to your advantage that happened who knows. Sometimes it's not 'til years later you realise this.

A bonafide answer to a future interview question ''what's the most disappointing thing that's happened to you in your career''? I would be hesitant make any reference to gender in your answer - they will work it out. The fact that you took it on the chin, got on with life without harbouring any grudges and applied yourself in your current position will say a lot more.

Would you feel any better if it was a male pilot with 200hrs that gazumped you because daddy was a mate of the CP. Probably not.

Wonder what this MtIsa pilot would say in any future airline interviews when asked by the panel ''how did you get your last job on turbine with just 200 hours in the logbook''? This maybe her downfall next time and your windfall.

May have been Confucius who said: ''the law may sleep but never dies''. :cool: :cool:

[Spinnerhead]

I have flown with many female pilots over the years, and there is only one whom I would trust to fly my mother around. She is an exceptional pilot, (no not my mother) and would easily be in the top 10% of pilots I have flown with. The rest of the female pilots I have flown with would be in the lower 20%.

Ever watched a female skydiver try to land a parachute, it is generally not very pretty.

Women are just not mentally equipped as well as men to fly planes, you can yell and screem about it as much as you like, but you cannot change our basic makeup.

Basically women fly planes like they park cars. Very few do it well. However the car does eventually get parked!

[Aviatrix69]

Well I guess it depens on the CRM you have at your working place. If I was to sit next to Spinnerhead I'd most probably also be in the lower 20% for him, as he seems to be too narrow-minded to give a female Pilots a chance.

I like to have mixed flight deck crews, because I can help my male colleages out in situations where "they just are not menally as well equipped as I am". We do have a different way of looking at things, noticing them and reacting, but for staying in the loop it broadens the overview of the situation if our CRM is as good to wish to share and accept the comments from both sides. Together we are great!

Cheers

[bush mechanics]

Over the years Ive met alot of female pilots and must say alot of them would **** all over the boys coming from flying schools these days.
The company i work for used too do scenics at the rock and we had sometimes upto 4 Girls there at a time,The reason why was too get people in seats you would have to get friendly with the bus driver.Soo If you are a mid aged bus driver and a lovely young female pilot comes up to you and smiles and askes is there any one for a scenic ,what do you reckon happens?The other company down there at the time (all male pilots) couldnt compete.
You can tell the ones who used the furry log book then the girls who really did work for what they had.
Had a Citation here in alice on friday female F/0,Nice girl but crikeys been with the company 8 weeks 310 /chieftan and citation indorssment she told us quiet proudlly I must say.
If I was a chick with a good rack and a nice ass I would use it too my best advantage.

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

I have to agree with you, in the end it maybe was to my advantage that I did not get the job and a few months later I found something better.

However it was very annoying at the time after I had spent so many years looking for work and came very close to actually getting my first job.

[notlandung]

Ok, I realise that this is not strictly on the topic but....

Has anyone ever met any gay pilots?
I dont think i have ever heard of a professional pilot who was also gay...... Except for those in 70's porno's with the standard mo.:p

Notlandung

[nzer]

I am astounded that in this day and age the topic is even a matter for discussion - I agree with the respondent who made the analogy with short pilots v tall pilots.

[High Altitude]

Why not start to make it really apolitical.

How many Aboriginal pilots are there?

Watching a war doco the other day and it reminds you of how long female pilots have been flying. Really what is the point, if you qualify for the lic then you've got a liscense.

I think the topic is more on the side of who uses what to gain competitive advantages.

HA...

[Knulp]

Go ahead and tell us HA how many aboriginal pilots are there?
I have met one in Darwin and he was a nice bloke that was ten years or so ago he should be the top dog in Q by now.

[the wizard of auz]

Well, since we are going to get all political, I havnt met an aboriginal pilot yet. I have had about four that I have talked into getting grants to do the CPL course and they all dropped out within three weeks. I employ aboriginal people almost every week and apart from about three (out of about thirty) they almost always last about three to five days, then want a cheque, then wont be seen again for about two weeks(when the $$$ runs out). they are almost always excelent stockmen. the people that I assisted get grants were well educated and clever people....... It was just easier to go the way they wanted to go.

ADVERTISMENT, I am happy to interview all those ladies interested in using the furry log book to assist the job aplication. ( I actually dont have a position available at the moment, but will interview for future positions) :D

[chinese chicken]

I realise this is off the topic but Aboriginal pilots, well come on guys lets not really go pissin in people's pockets cause **** me its like tryin to fit a a square in a round hole, i think there may have been a dude in the war, seen some blag magic poster at centrelink once, kinda like communitys usin ther money resourcefully,

and on the topic of women pilots, its not that big an issue just as has been said, they are minority(in aviation industry) and there abilty shows irresepective of gender, as they are soon found out in the real world if theyare not up to srcatch, just ask some people about recent activites in the kimberelys

c u

[bigfella5]

Alrighty then.......... anybody heard of any gay, aboriginal, female pilots (perhaps with one appendage missing for good measure!)
Just feeling lonely!

[FarQ2]

Got to agree with Spinnerhead, the odd one AND THERE IS NOT MANY are VERY GOOD. But the in the main they do not aw f...$ I'm digging a hole here!

I taught quite a few and no I didn't inspect the furry logbook, maybe I should have. :D

Unfortunately many are not up to it but so are a lot of "testosterone loaded jocks" :)

Most of the women that make it through to the "heavy metal sh..t" have done it on ability although it is a worry for the future of a Capt. who may lose the plot when critised by the crew and public as an F/O was with me once after a very "positive" arrival and just burst into tears. How do you handle that - it's not in the QRH

I'm outta here this thread is a minefield :D :D :D

[Knulp]

Has anyone met any good women?

[sniffer dog]

Hey FarQ2 did you make an entry in the furry logbook after the positive arrival? :D :D

[High Altitude]

Knulp..... Well said. They are all fickle creatures...:D :cool: :D

R there any in Knulpville...

[Mr. Hat]

The fury logbook is a part of life we are just going to have to accept. Women only gain an unfair advantage when we let them.

Unfortunately it starts off very early. At uni all sorts of tricks were used to gain the edge..it then carried on and on.

[Dan Kelly]

Ah it's good to see that paranoia still survives.

It seems obvious that women, being different to men, must get their aviation oriented jobs by virtue of cunning underhanded behaviour. They could not possibly be given a job on merit.

If a company decided to favour women, to balance the gender gap, let's not criticise the company, let's blame the women for simply applying for a job and taking advantage of an offer of employment.

Because we all know that no male has ever been offered a job because of who he knew, or simply that he was a known quantity to the employer! No male has ever been 'head hunted' to the detriment of all the other persons who could have done the same job.

IMHO I've met as many dopey male pilots as I have dopey female pilots. I'd guess that there are as many female pilots who think that way about me as there do male pilots.

Surely it boils down to us all being human beings with equal rights to put our hat in the ring. One uses whatever selling points one has to try and make one's self the most attractive applicant for a position. I have yet to meet a female pilot who I think was employed simply because some reprobate male thought he'd get a bit on the side!

[ugly]

Aboriginal pilots?

Len Walters, only WWII aboriginal fighter pilot

Flew P40s

http://www.blackaviation.com/waters.htm

[Pinky the pilot]

I remember reading a short story once about the pilots of a Beaufighter sqadron sitting around one morning, low overcast so no flying. They were complaining that the Beau was a bit dangerous, unstable in tight turns etc etc.
Next thing a Beau whistled over their heads, pulled up into a stall turn just under the overcast dropping flaps and gear at the top, then coming straight in for an absolute greaser of a landing.
All the pilots rushed out to see who was the pilotand were shocked to see the pilot stepping out of the Beaughfighter, pulling off the flying helmet to reveal long blonde hair!!! An ATS lady!
It was said that the squadron in question never again complained about the Beaufighter in any way whatsoever.

[Spinnerhead]

That is the exact point, we are all shocked/amazed when we see a woman do a good bit of flying.

Most people are amazed by very rare events.

[Foyl]

My my my, aren't the misogynists crawling out of the woodwork?

The American WASPS were actually picked to train male pilots in the B29 superfortress because the men weren't happy to fly it. The women pilots had to demonstrate how easy it was to handle before it was accepted. I could cite a number of other examples but I have better things to do with my time that demonstrate that some of the people arguing on this thread are doing nothing more than displaying their own inadequacies, both as pilots and people.

Women fly, we fly well, get over it and get a life.

[ZK-PIG]

I think the debate is not so much about womans place in aviation as it is about mens place in todays society all together. Gone are the days where Men are the Hunters and Woman are the gathers, I think that Men today have no idea what there role is in todays society and thus feel that they have degrade woman in order to make themselves less insecure about it.

The most interesting thing though is that woman in Aviaiton generally don't care what the men think of them, we do our job and go home at the end of the day with out another thought to what male pilots think of us.

But don't worry boys we understand if you need someone to blame for your downfalls when you get passed over on a job for a female, you can continue to use us for that purpose because we really don't care. :D :D :D

[Pinky the pilot]

Spinnerhead; er....that really was'nt the point I was trying to get across. Think about it for a while.

[drshmoo]

Just to lay some background info...
Ive been raised by a left wing, do gooder femo-nazi mother and this thread was half wind up, but sometimes we need to wind up to get the real stories. Keep them coming. I have tought females to drive cars and I have found that to be an extremely trying task. Too may tears etc. Failure to accept constructive critism, without being overly defensive and/or breaking out into tears. Has any Instructors out there found dealing with female students being vastly different to that of teaching males to fly. I was not/and still am not perfect in any way. But that whole spacial awareness ~ parking analogy goes along way.
Dr Shmoo

[Hugh Jarse]

Doc and others,

I guess I've trained over 20 girls to fly. The youngest being 11 and would have soloed in well under 10 hrs if it were allowed under the regs.

Interestingly, none of the girls I trained were really any different emotionally to the guys. But then again, I'm not terribly perceptive at picking up signals from chicks :eek: But I don't remember ever seeing any of them cry. Perhaps the crying had something to do with the way the lesson was delivered?

Most of the girls did a sh!tload more preparation between flights than the guys. Made my job a lot easier ;)

[OpsNormal]

Are you getting the right letter in the right envelope these days? ;) :} :ok:

Hope you're doing OK, don't let Bozo stress yer too much! Say G'day to Festa and Skoggs for me if yer could! :E

[Tinstaafl]

Some of the worst pilots I've ever seen were male. Others were female.

Some of the best were female. Others were male.

Big deal. It's not gender, it's the individual.

[Woomera]

I'm with Dan, Hugh and the enlightened others, gender has nothing to do with it, except as Hugh avers as a bonus in their approach.

mrs woomera and the princesses woomera are monitoring this thread closely:* and keep making references to women posessing superior skills in something called "multitasking" and "seeing eyes" denied to the male gender.

Gotta go for the "seeing eyes" thing as in, "wheres the (looking in fridge or cupboard) blah blah? .........it's in the fridge, cupbd etc.......I can't find it!............look,........ there it is (row 46 shelf 52) .......fact that 'tomato sauce' had been transferred into unlabeled bottle for as yet unexplained reasons, has nothing with it to do.:confused:

"Multitasking" I think means the ability to carry on a chick type telephone conversation with a friend, giving son marching orders for the day, whilst making his lunch, making sure the clothes he wears aren't more than a week old, sorting out the cleaning lady, redesigning the interior of the toaster with the meat mallet and
advising me on how to deal with current business crisis, all at the same time.:D I'm always overawed.:(

Problem was explained to me listening to one of the excellent ABC interviews.It was a stunning revelation and so simple when you undertstand it.
And I hasten to say I am not being patronising when I convey that it is the difference in the way that they and we think.
I thought I already knew that, but had not worked out why.

Very clever scientist explained why mrs woomera and I for example do not travel well together the in the car, say when directions to the destination are concerned.:rolleyes:
It goes something like this.
We are driving to a destination to which she has been but not I, and I'm driving.
mrs: go down the street that goes to the beach to that big shopping centre then turn left, keep going until you see a big house with a purple fence, you are nearly there, then when you get to the park, it's the house over the other side next to the laneway.
Translated to men speak,
go (up) North along ABC street for a kilometre turn left into XYZ street for another 2km, (you will, incidentally, see a big purple fence on the left that I thought was pretty), when you get to the park turn off and its the house blah blah.

It's simple, she is object/picture oriented, I am not.:p

[TANUA]

Well said Woomera.

I have observed or flown with Female Pilots in PNG/GA and Airlines in Australia-

on average -they have been better operators and generally more knowledgeable than their Male counterparts.

Comments on how some individuals advance their career are from individuals who have a chip on their shoulder. I am sure many Males have worked for nothing or even paid to work for an operator-these are just facts of life.

Good luck to all our Female Pilots-it will be quite some years before they can say its a level playing field-despite the hysteria and paranoia evident here?

[VictorBravo]

At Aviex one of the AWPA members was met with a tirade from a woman when she merely asked if the woman was interested in flying. The woman said yes, and that she was a pilot, but she then launched into a tirade about how women don't need organisations like the AWPA to provide a support group for women pilots or to promote women pilot's interests. She said that the AWPA was an obsolete anachronism born in a time of discrimination which didn't exist any more, and it was now purposeless and we should just give it up (although what she was doing at the AWPA stand in the first place was beyond me...).

Thank you gentlemen. I will be directing people who query the AWPA's raison d'etre to this thread.

[Capt Claret]

My observations are that people vary in their level of skill, aptitude and attitude.

While I think that gender plays a part in some general areas, such as me (male) being unable to find the sugar amongst the sweetner (artificial) in the galley today (Mr Woomera Sir, can you see from whence I come?), I don't believe women make better or worse pilots than men.

[SniperPilot]

With relatively few women in the trade it only takes one or two shockers to screw it up for the others. I know one NT outfit that will not consider hiring females for the foreseeable future bacause of one individual, and everyone up here knows who I am talking about. Even the CP(female) at the time loaths this person due to their conduct. It really had nothing to do with gender as such, but left such an indelible mark on everyone, that you have to fight hard your natural instinct to stereotype (or gendertype).

She has really poisoned the chalice for those that wish to follow.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

This is the age of political correctness after all.

Cheers DM

[apache]

Just to add my two cents worth : I believe that women are given more OPPORTUNITIES than the men nowadays , but what they do with them comes down to ability, pure and simple.

Have always found that female bosses prefer female workers, and some male bosses will hire females purely for the "eye candy" value.

My missus recently commented to me that a female pilot should NOT be hired to do a job requiring some physical effort, because she wouldn't be able to lift the bags, and that the MALES were making her fail by putting her in this situation!

I must say though, that ANYONE turning on the waterworks has ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT from me! ... do not care WHAT the situation is, there is NEVER a reason to cry over it.

All things said and done, at the end of the day it DOES come down to ability.

[echohotel]

You can't help but wonder whether the pilots who are so concerned about having a female pilot in the flight deck are simply put out because it restricts their own voyueristic, chauvanistic and sexist behaviour.

Or could it be these particular pilots are not up to scratch themselves and looking to boost their ego's by taking someone else (whom perhaps they feel threatened by) down a peg or two?

Neither men or women are exempt from being bad pilots - or good ones for that matter.

[luna landing]

Notlandung - I can't believe you wrote it!!!

"Never heard of a professional pilot who was gay":eek: :eek:

Ansett had a least 3 and I am friends with an ex Ansett Flight Attendant (male) who is in a relationship with a gay (male) Qantas pilot.

Now, pick yourself up off the floor:D

[Mustang51]

My personel opinion is that if you have the skills, temperament and enthusiasm, this is what will get you those big jobs. Those who use the "furry resume" (either gender) and those who give the big jobs based on the "furry resume" are a danger to the aviation industry.

I was taught to fly by a women who was both very skillful, a great instructor and a great person to boot. I have flown many hours with her and with other male pilots with huge TT and I would definately back her knowledge and capabilities to some of those male pilots.

[skychaser]

What about anti-female attitudes that appear to be systemic within an organisation making the playing field not only tilted towards male pilots but downright embarrrasing towards female pilots.
Anyone here seen the CD put out by CASA in May 2002 called In-Flight Decision Making? It is probably aimed at the trainee pilot or the newly licenced pilot. The CD has a section which has a scenario of a problem with an aircraft (Chieftain) and two different pilots tackling the problem. The male pilot is called Mike (a good solid reliable anglo-saxon name) and the female pilot is called Chantelle (They might as well have put her in a bikini, given her a French accent and enormous boobs). Both these pilots are shown problem solving and, of course, Mike is wonderful, does all the right things, is sensible, intelligent and practical whereas Bambi- sorry Chantelle makes all the wrong decisions backed up by all the wrong thought processes. In other words she's a dill. How she ever got her licence in the first place would have to be questioned.
The problem being all those young male pilots will see this and think that all female pilots are like this and so the discrimination is furthered by our own regulator. Not only that, all these young male pilots will assume that they are better than female pilots and this may lead to Instructional or CRM problems later on.
I do not suggest that Mike be the idiot but perhaps there should have been two male pilots so one could look bad and one could look good.
I have emailed both CASA and The Hon. John Anderson requesting that this CD be withdrawn from distribution but I have had no reply.
I have spoken with AOPA who were not interested and suggested
I take it to the Women Pilots Association - not good enough.
You may think this is a small thing, something trivial but this is the precise way that discrimination is perpetuated. Sometimes the more subtle it is the more effective it is.

[motboy]

as a pilot and as a father of a little girl who loves aeroplanes I say all the best to all female pilots and the only blokes who critisize you are the ones who are threatend by you


spell check please

[Foyl]

Uh, Skychaser are you a female pilot? As one myself I didn't really have a problem with it (I mean gender inequality was hardly what I was keeping my beady little eyes out for), and I have yet to hear another female pilot bag the CD. I mean there are more than enough men portrayed as dills in training videos, CDs and DVDs. If women truly want equality then we have to accept that we also have to take our place amongst the "this is the wrong way" examples. Otherwise we would be insisting on a type of equality which is again, completely false (I mean like guys we are only human, so portraying us as smug little smarties who always show the guys how it is really done isn't exactly a picture of reality is it?). And again, it's adding to the argument that women are always given special treatment.

[Spinnerhead]

Skychaser, perhaps CASA wanted to make the video as realistic as possible. In my experience, almost all the women I have witnessed flying Chieftains behave in the manner described by your video. However only some of the men behave in the same manner.

And let me say that I have the greatest admiration for any woman who can handle an aircraft with confidence. I have noticed that those that can hold those that can't with contempt.

The comments of Foyl are typical of those that can.

[skychaser]

Foyl, I am fully aware that amongst the much smaller population of female pilots there are some dills just as our Chantelle in the CD was and we all are aware that there are male pilots who are dills also. All professions have good and bad exponents, whether male or female but that is not my the concern I have with this CD.
To show a female who is a bad pilot against a male who is a good pilot in a widely distributed training or information CD put out by the Regulator is just not on. Whether CASA likes it or not it doesn't just write a whole lot of rules and regs and then try and administer them it also sets attitutudes. If it didn't want to set attitudes then CASA wouldn't release CDs, Videos, DVDs or books on any subject. CASA wants to set attitudes to safety, obeying the rules and regs, good training etc etc. In the CD I am talking about it sets an attitude to female pilots by pitting a female pilot who is bad against the marvellous Mike who can do no wrong. As I said 2 male pilots would have made the situation benign but having MIke and Chantelle is just plain discriminatory, retrogressive and thoughtless. The men who put this CD together and obviously thought that using Mike and Chantelle in those particular roles was very amusing need to have a close look at themselves. They're the type that are probably still telling jokes about black people and thinking they're funny.

[Capt Claret]

From your last post it seems you are assuming that the boy v girl with boy better than girl was a conscious decision.

You may well be correct but then again, it wouldn't be the first time that the desired effect was lost because the designer knew so clearly what s/he was setting out to achieve that s/he couldn't see the product the way others do.

[Foyl]

Sorry Skychaser but I think your argument is based on some assumptions. How do you know that the people behind the CD are male? How do you know that discimination is endemic in the organisation? How do you know that they find racist jokes funny? How do you know that the next CD produced won't have the girl doing all the right things and the guy doing all the wrong things?

I cannot see any deliberate attempt to cause offence, and I feel that arguing on these issues only creates the artificial level playing field that many other women are now trying very hard to get away from because it engenders it's own form of discrimination.

You have the right to protest to the minister, and if you feel it is necessary you don't need my permission to go ahead. I just don't happen to agree with you, and was stating why.

[VictorBravo]

Skychaser just out of curiosity I just had a look at the CD.

Did you ever consider that "Chantelle" might actually be a real pilot herself who just participated in the CD? That has been known to happen, in which case you might give some thought to your rather personal comments about her in your posting.

Regarding your statment re "endemic" gender bias, I seem to recall that the year befor last(?) there was a video clip shown at the CASA annual conference regarding the use of electronic planning programs. In that CD the older male pilot adhered to the good old paper and fax method of flight planning, where the younger woman pilot used her laptop to plan and submit via the internet, which was promoted as a smarter and faster way of flight planning.

I also haven't heard any other women pilots make a complaint about the CD. If you are still concerned, you might consider actually giving Andrew Warland-Brown at CASA Aviation Safety Promotion an email or call to express your concerns, his details are on the CD case.

But I have to say, as another fem flyer, I'm with Foyl on this one.

[Mr. Hat]

I say good luck to Chantelle (french girls with big boobs are great- :) hang on.. all women with big boobs are great... oops I think I'm going to get a bashing for this one...sorry couldn't resist :uhoh: :ouch: )


On a serious note though, you can't go worrying about what other people are doing or not doing in order to get ahead in the industry. Its just part of life. Nothing will ever change it.

[DollyDonker]

Funny the attitude of some people in the industry...most employers are male and do only employ males for some reason or another. I have flown with both types, furry and non-furry types and I have to say it has always been a fifty-fifty split - as many guys I have flown with are as incompentent as half the females. It all comes down to the person and their ability...flying ability is not related to the ability to stand up and pee.

One thing is for sure, females have never been stupid in the air when I have flown with them, neither have they been willing to take a risk. As for us guys, I know plenty of them who are just plain stupid and farking dangerous....and they still get jobs, even though they take risks they REALLY shouldn't.

[TurboOtter]

"It all comes down to the person and their ability...flying ability is not related to the ability to stand up and pee. "


Well DD, I sure I am not the only guy that has met a girl that can do that! :O


I used to think that men were better "hands on" fliers than women but lately I am starting to think that this is far from the truth.:(

But never the less if there are any "furry" log books out there willing to be inspected please let me know!!!;) ;) ;)

If there any lady bosses that need a "hard" worker then please state your starting salary and equipment!!:cool: :cool:

[exrba]

Please use "some of the cells that you have left" to distinguish between what is and is not approriate in the real world. W

[fullofagina]

HA,

Do u still try before you buy? Is that why us chicks dont want to apply anymore? Its pricks like you that destroy g.a. for us!!:mad: :yuk:

[the wizard of auz]

Fullofagina, you dont have any super glue on your fingers do ya?. ;)

[suspicious]

Tried to edit this post to make it acceptable but failed. W