FAA or JAA IR or IMC

[golfbug72]

As a recently qualified PPL, I am interested in working towards some IMC/IR rating, and subsequently owning/share ownership in an aircraft - would be interested to hear various views on which route I should follow - open to either G or N reg

Live near Cambridge so anyone in that area who has been through this would be of particular interest as could possibly discuss in the air!


Thanks


GB72

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi

If you want to use an aeroplane efficiently you would be best adviced to get an IR.

Depending on funds etc you can choose FAA/CAA.

FAA groundschool less 'heavy' but restricted for use only on N registered machines afterwards.

Oh and FAA is a lot cheaper overall.

If you are not sure you could do worse than getting an IMC from a good school. This will allow you to test the water and any IMC flying will go towards your FAA IR ticket.

FD

[FlyingForFun]

Haven't been there yet, but looking into it at the moment. You have three options:


UK IMC rating - 15 hours minimum of instruction, will allow you to fly G-registered aircraft in IMC, but only in the UK and with some other restrictions
FAA IR - minimum 40 hours instruction. Lets you fly an N-registered aircraft in IMC, which is great if you have an N-registered aircraft. But also gives you a "free" IMC rating, so arguably better than doing the IMC rating... as long as you don't mind going to the US to do 40 hours of training
JAR IR - the 45 hours of training isn't really a problem, the ground-school is. Not worth the hassle unless you're going commercial, or you have a specific need (or desire) to fly a G-registered aircraft in IMC outside the UK
Whatever you decide, good luck!

FFF
----------

Edit to reply to FD's point about getting an IMC rating first to test the water... The instruction time that you need to get the IMC rating can be deducted from the time required to get an FAA IR (reducing it to around 20-25 hours minimum, depending how quickly you get the IMC). However, it can't be used towards the JAR IR. So if your ultimate aim is to get a JAR IR, there's no point doing the IMC first, unless you want to end up paying for 15 extra hours.

And, while we're on the subject of doing more than one of these options, you can convert an FAA IR (or any ICAO IR) to a JAR IR with just 15 hours minimum of dual. But I think you still have to do the tedious ground-school if you use this route.

[rustle]

fff

Unless it's changed the JAR-IR minimum training is 50 hours for restricted and 55 for unrestricted (multi) IR.

Ever get the feeling of deja-vu :D

===================

Okay, now you've edited your's... ;)

What about:

Do the (UK) IMC rating = 15 hours
Like it, so do the FAA IR = plus 25 hours
Still like it, so convert that to JAA IR = plus 15 hours

Total still = 55 hours, so via that convoluted route the IMC 15 hours has assisted and will count in the hours-count for JAA IR.

Good innit :)

[FlyingForFun]

Rustle, you're correct - the 45 hours is if you've already got a CPL I think. Thanks for spotting the error.

FFF
--------------

[golfbug72]

Dutch/FFF/Rustle.

Thanks guys,

Have no interest in commerical so sounds like the IMC taster route and FAA/N reg is the best option for me - and as nearly 40, the prospect of tedious ground school for the JAA does not appeal!

Cheers

GB72

[rustle]

gb72

Before you discount the JAA route completely (which happened in another thread not too long ago ;)) here's some facts:

The theory may seem onerous, but it is definitely do-able (home study if you choose)

I believe the MET theory alone may save your life one day (there are two MET papers) - have a read of the "IMC Tree Strike..." thread again - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76203

We're a similar vintage :D

[PhilD]

rustle

Great scheme! So if you have an IMC and (say) over 20 hours of instrument time and want to get a JAA IR, then either:

a) you do an FAA IR first (20 hours) then a JAA IR (15 hours)

b) you just do a JAA IR (50 hours)

So to get both licences you need 15 hours less flying than to just get the JAA licence. Fantastic. Who makes up these rules??

(Before anyone points it out I know that this is slightly simplistic as to get an FAA IR you first need to pass an FAA PPL skills test, and you also need to do the FAA groundschool, etc).

Or, to put it another way, if you have an IMC and want to get a further instrument qualification there is no reason NOT to do the FAA IR first.

[FlyingForFun]

Rustle,

Are there really two Met papers for the IR? There's only one for the ATPL! And I agree that Met is important and can save your life - but I fail to see the relevance of the movement of the ITCZ over Asia to a PPL/IR flying in the UK (assuming it's the same syllabus as the ATPL - I don't know for sure if it is).

I do like your idea, though, and I had considered it - in fact, it could well be the route I end up taking.

Golfbug,

Having done the IMC, you won't gain any benefit in terms of what you're allowed to do by getting an FAA IR, unless you have access to an N-registered aircraft. (Of course, you will still benefit from the extra instruction, so it would still be worthwhile - just wasn't sure if you'd understood this from your reply.)

Phil,

You do not need to pass an FAA PPL skills test. You can get an FAA license based on your JAR license, and then you can add an IR to this. (The only thing you can't add to an FAA license based on a foreign license is a night qualification - this is because the FAA doesn't have such a thing as a night qualification.) And, although I haven't seen any papers, I believe the groundschool for the FAA IR is very much simpler than the JAR groundschool, with only one paper, and the entire question bank is published by the FAA.

And you're right, the rules make no sense at all! I also think it's incredible that training in the UK for a UK qualification (the IMC rating) doesn't count towards a JAR IR in the UK, but does count towards IR training in another country! But there you go!

FFF
-------------

[PhilD]

FFF

I thought the rules had changed, and that I could not use my FAA licence issued on the basis of my JAA one in order to do an FAA IR (but I may be wrong....).

Also - don't forget that your FAA IR (when you get it) means you can fly IFR (if you need to) when you rent in the US. Some US FBOs require you to have an instrument rating to rent overnight or more than a certain distance from the base.

[drauk]

You can add additional ratings to your US certificate issued on the basis of a foreign license.

From the FAA's website:

The holder of a U.S. pilot certificate issued under FAR 61.75 can qualify and be tested for additional ratings by complying with all of the U.S. certification requirements for that particular rating. These additional ratings will be added to the holders certificate with a notation in parenthesis, "US Test Passed".

If you want to get an IR issued in the US on the basis of a JAR one you need to take a computer-based theory exam in the US.

[Cusco]

Just my tuppence-worth, and a few minor corrections to Drauk and others.

Yes, you can get an FAA/IR issued solely on the basis of a restricted FAA/PPL issued on the back of (in my case) a CAA/PPL.

I had gone to US for some concentrated IR revision as in UK I hadn't done much IMC flying: only enough to keep the CAA/IMC current. However I revised like mad and did the FAA/IR written before I went.

Been there, done that : grubby little (but treasured) US licence - sorry license states 'instrument airplane U.S.test passed. Issued on basis and valid only when accompanied by united kingdon pilot license number xxxxxx'

However you *will* need a US 3rd class medical cert before you do the FAA flight test: they don't recognise the UK one.

(don't ask : I just did what I was told and went off for the medical five minutes before the flight test with the examiner waiting and drumming his fingers>)

No you don't have to go to USA to do the written FAA/IR test: I used Tom Hughston at Norwich in Jan 2002, though I must admit I haven't seen his ads in the flying mags recently.

Best to get it out of the way in UK before you go and have a working knowledge of US geography too.

I must have wasted ten minutes trying to find Alabama on the s*dding map to be able to answer one particular met. question.

Yes , you can only fly N reg aircraft in UK, but thwe worlds your oyster when you go for a (essential at some time in your flying life) flying holiday in USA.

Yes the FAA/IR is cheaper than JAA/IR, because its modular and you don't have to b*gger about learning the colour of the laser light in an inertial gyro compass and other irrelevant stuff that most PPLs don't need.

Of course, if you're going commercial then that bit of my argument doesn't apply.

Although I already had CAA/IMC before I went to Florida for FAA/IR, if you haven't got one, then the JAA will issue you with a JAA/IMC when you get your FAA/IR (for gold of course).

One word of caution though and that is not to go racing into any type of IMC training too quickly after PPL (IIRC you stated you are recent PPL), until you can confidently nail an altitude and a heading in VMC without thinking about it: you don't want to pay for expensive training time under the hood just to relearn stuff you should do instinctively.


So where do you live: I'm not a million miles from Cambridge, though our two a/c shares went last year :-(


Safe flying

Cusco

[Wrong Stuff]

What about :

Do the (UK) IMC rating = 15 hours
Like it, so do the FAA IR = plus 25 hours
Still like it, so convert that to JAA IR = plus 15 hours

Total still = 55 hours, so via that convoluted route the IMC 15 hours has assisted and will count in the hours-count for JAA IR. Having already got the IMC I'm considering this route for sometime in the future. However, bear in mind these are minimum times. If this piece of advice from the "Professional Air Training" website about their JAA IR conversion is right...
This is a minimum 15 hour course structured as follows:
- 5 hours Frasca 142 simulator;
- 10 hours Beech Duchess twin-engined aircraft.

It is intended for pilots with significant experience e.g. greater than the 200 hour FAA CPL/IR holder. Our experience tells us that it is highly likely that the 200 hour FAA CPL/IR holder will require more like twice this length of course.
... then it becomes a 30 hour conversion, wiping out the hours knocked off the FAA IR. Of course you'll have the benefit of a native FAA IR which may be useful in the long term, but you've still got to do both sets of ground exams.

[rustle]

Wrong Stuff

Absolutely right - they are the minimum legally required times.

Also, that route will involve 3 flight tests - nowt wrong with that, but each of about 2 hours adds another 4 hours (ish) to the minimums. (4 because you would have to do one flight test even if you did only the JAA IR and no IMC/FAA-IR)

[FlyingForFun]

Just to throw another variable into the equation though...

The reason I'm looking at taking this route is nothing to do with total time. It's to do with getting time off work. Even if I do a CPL first, I'd still need 45 hours, minimum, to do a JAR IR. How many weeks would I need to take off work for that? And what would be the chances of my boss agreeing?

On the other hand, I could do an IMC rating flying weekends. Then I could take 3 weeks off work and get an FAA IR. After that, take a 6 month break, then 3 weeks off to convert to a JAR IR. The total time doesn't actually concern me - I'm more concerned about how practical it is to do the required training.

Everyone has different requirements, that's what makes the whole thing so interesting. The only thing anyone can do is get all the facts, then decide which of the options suits their personal situation best - there is no single answer which will work for everyone.

FFF
--------------

[rustle]

FlyingForFun

Nah, you've lost me there...

The airways, VORs, NDBs, ILS's and ATC will still be there on the weekends ;)

The only thing you HAVE to do during the week is the IRT, because CAAFU don't do weekends AFAIK.

Did it that way myself.

[FlyingForFun]

Did you? In that case, would be so kind as to PM me with details of the school you used, especially if they do CPL training too. Although I haven't got around to researching it properly yet (not due to finish the exams for another month), I was under the impression that most CPL/IR training is done during the week. (Of course, if I'm totally wrong, that's fantastic!)

FFF
-------------

(Wonder how long before this gets moved to Wannabes? Can someone please talk about something Private Flying related, because it would be a shame to lose the first half of this thread, which is extremely relevant, just because we can't keep on topic!)

FFF, Its ok here, back on track a bit now. :)

[Wrong Stuff]

In that case, would be so kind as to PM me with details of the school you used or, even better, post them here. Considering how much chat goes on in Wannabees about different schools, I'm sure that wouldn't fall foul of the advertising rules.

I've always been led to believe the problem with weekend-only IRs is getting the continuity. Did you find that a problem? Or did you have to take a week off or something near the end to really get up to speed?

[rustle]

FFF

Can someone please talk about something Private Flying related...

Ironically, I think you are the only one to have mentioned CPL's :D

The school I used was Bournemouth Flying Club, and they do CPLs as well.

I did a CAA-IR, so received 12 hours off for having a valid IMC, so required 43 hours minimum.

Of those 43 I could have done 20 in the FRESCA I, but only did 15 (2 weekends), leaving me 28 hours to fly.

I did ALL the flying in a twin (GA7), rather than just 15 hours and the rest in a complex SEP.

Three consecutive weekends, flying 4 hours (2 flights) on each of the Sat/Sun gave me 24 hours.

I then took the Wednesday, Thursday and Friday off. Flew the remaining 4 hours Wednesday (2 flights), the 170A "test" on the Thursday, and the IRT on the Friday.

Cramming it all into the last 3 days got around the problem of continuity I found.

Thread nicely hijacked :D

Have funGrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..... :p

[englishal]

200 hour FAA CPL/IR
Odd that, you need 250 hrs for the FAA CPL :)

Remember that for the FAA IR you need 50 hrs P1 X/C, where X/C is defined as >50nm from point of departure to destination (straight line, so no flying around in circles and landing 10nm away). This might be a factor if you have recently passed the PPL. Secondly, probably mentioned here before, but you need to meet all the requirements of the FAA PPL before taking the IR check ride. You don't need a full FAA PPL, just one issued on basis of your ICAO licence, but you must have met the FAA requirements, and this includes night flying. Finally, your JAA PPL instrument training [5 hrs or whatever] counts towards your FAA IR.....

Maybe I'll convert this year, its probably about time. BFC are a good school, pretty laid back, I'd recommend them to anyone.

Cheers
EA;)

[Wrong Stuff]

Thanks for that - very useful indeed. Sounds intensive but quite do-able...

[Keef]

I did the FAA IR in Florida last year (with Cusco) and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I have a suspicion (can't find the reference now) that the FAA has recently changed the rules and you can't get the FAA IR issued onto a "reciprocal" PPL issued on the basis of your CAA/JAA PPL.

However, if you're able to pass the IR checkride, surely you could also pass the FAA PPL checkride? I did! I was planning on doing a CPL, then realised that was a waste of time and money and bottled out to the PPL.

I'd support the suggestion to consolidate your VFR flying first, till you can fly +/- 50 feet and +/- 3 degrees on heading more or less indefinitely (not using the autopilot).

Then you're ready to start the IMC rating.

Also rack up a goodly few hours of cross-country flying (> 50 nm from start point, landing away) before you go for the FAA IR, or you'll be into long flights in your restricted time window to get up to the hours required.

You can do the FAA IR in two weeks, easily, if you have an IMC rating and are in reasonable IFR currency.

But do the writtens in the UK before you go, unless you have plenty of time there. And buy the Oral Exam Guides - I found the hardest bit of the IR was the oral. The flying is easier IMHO (and after best part of two weeks with a good instructor, it should be a breeze).

Then find a group in the UK with an N-reg IFR-capable aircraft!

[formationfoto]

CUSCO

Tom Hughston is still operating at Norwich and offering FAA IR training (both written and flying). Spoke to him last week and am planning to do mine with him this year. He now has access to an FAA exmainer as well so it should be possible to do the entire course and tests without leaving the U.K.

Not as cheap as going to Florida but perhaps more practical if it isn't possible to get a couple of weeks off.

Tom is one of only a few people in the UK able to offer this service and he happens to be less than 15 miles from me - luck shines on me for once!

[Flyin'Dutch']

I know we are not supposed to post me too postings, however I found Tom helpful and efficient.

Here is the url:

http://www.flyafts.co.uk/Flight_Training/flight_training.html

Hope to do the flying bit later this spring.

FD

[West Coast]

Curious, are there a fair amount of N registered aircraft in the UK or are they few and far between?

[Keef]

There are N-reg aircraft in the UK - several on the apron where I fly - but they tend to be privately owned rather than group or club aircraft.

Our Arrow is destined to go onto the N-reg when its UK C of A comes up for renewal. (Or sooner, if some of the silliness comes to pass.)

[rustle]

Keef

Our Arrow is destined to go onto the N-reg when its UK C of A comes up for renewal. (Or sooner, if some of the silliness comes to pass.)

Possibly deserves its own thread - but what 'silliness' will you escape by moving a G reg to the N reg?

[Keef]

Rustle - I'm thinking of airworthiness stuff - "son of FM immunity" and the like. We were planning to install a Michel radio to replace our dying KX170B, for the grand sum of £1,600. Then the CAA "de-approved" the Michel, and the cheapest "approved" item we can find (that'll fit) is knocking on £5,000.

The Michel is (was?) still approved for N-reg. Had we been on N, that would have saved us £3k. Mind you, starting from £5k, the step to a GNS430 isn't so far, which is also not a bad thing.

Once we're on the N-reg, we don't have to have the prop scraped back to bare metal every six years, and many other such CAA weirdnesses.

[FlyingForFun]

Rustle, thanks for that - I've added BFC to my list of schools to investigate when it comes to it!

FFF
--------------

[Time to Fly]

Keef, you said:

I did the FAA IR in Florida last year (with Cusco) and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I was wondering which school you trained at and would you recommend them. I have been looking at several schools in Florida for my PPL and am not sure where to go.

TTF

[Keef]

TtF: I started the FAA IR at a place in California that I daren't name. Bad experience. Partly because I started a couple of weeks after 9/11, but mostly because the instructor wasn't really interested and the aircraft were barely airworthy. I gave up on that, had a holiday, and went home.

I did some research, got some nasty scares about prices, and decided (on the recommendation of several folks on here and elsewhere) to go to Naples Air Center.

I was totally happy with NAC, the instructor (brilliant guy), and the process. There were even briefings before and after flight!

Above all, it was friendly and the folks there enjoyed what they were doing. Suited me very well indeed. As a result, I have a nice, clean, shiny FAA PPL/IR (they don't call them that, but you know what I mean).

Naples is the Costa Geriatrica of Florida, but the airfield is excellent. I'm sure a search of the archives will reveal many other folks' comments on places in the USA.

The most highly recommended place in the USA wanted $20k to teach me to IR, and I'd have had to wear a uniform and stay in their proper accommodation. From what I hear, they are extremely good. But my IR cost me under $5k and that was nearer my end of the market.

[slim_slag]

You can get an FAA CPL/IR with 200 hours under part 141.

Commercial pilots have no real need to know the colour of the laser light in an inertial gyro compass

Most people in America haven't a clue where Alabama is. Most people who live in Alabama haven't a clue where Alabama is.


:D

[khorne]

Some of the posts that are mentioning numbers of hours for FAA IR's in this thread are wrong. I would qualify that and say that the only guide is the FAR AIM and I am quoting from the 2002 edition so it may have changed.

There are two routes to an FAA IR but the normal one for someone with a reasonable amount of experience is part 61. The main thing that people are wrong about is the "40 hours of training". The actual requirement is for

"40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time ..... & .... at least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor ....."

What this really means is that you can count real instrument experience towards the 40 hours or can take a safety pilot and work under the hood and do it yourself. If you have an IMC, for example, you can cound real IFR time and need not be with an instructor.

Training with instructors from the UK counts towards the instructor hours (if done outside of the USA).

In theory you can do an IMC rating, gain some experience and then travel to the US for a few hours training and a test. In practice you will probably need several hours of training, in my case about 15, just to get used to the US way of doing things. Don't forget that, in the USA, lots of this can be in simulators.

There are many other rules to do with FAA IR's that people need to bear in mind, for example you either need a night rating or do the FAA PPL night flying before you can take the test. The FAA cross country requirement can also be done in europe but is difficult. It all really boils down to whether you have your own aircraft or not. If you own an aircraft and can't take long holidays you can do almost everything yourself. If you rent aircraft in the UK then do as much as possible in the USA as it is so much cheaper.

[bluskis]

A small point is that many of the rules you learn for the FAA/IR differ from the equivalent CAA/IR, and it can be confusing remembering which are which.

I did the UK ground course some time ago and personally found all the subjects very interesting , although very time consuming.