unsw degrees etc

[druglord]

The fact is a uni degree is pretty useless unless you're trying to get into Qantas and we know what sorta percentage of pilot applicants that is. Where you do it is even less of interest as are your grades. The only reason airlines want their pilots to have degrees is because the number of employees in a company can raise the status of a company on the Forune 500 list and therefore the price of the stock - at least that's how it works in the US and I'm guessing similar in oz. This is what i"ve heard anyway.
Also it helps to have a bit of grey matter upstairs if you do get into the airlines. Ground school is harder than any uni course or ATPL subject I ever did. But don't get too excited because you think your uni has a better course. At the end of the day it won't really matter

[esreverlluf]

Hey Druggie - don't know what uni course you did (pharmacy perhaps?), but I reckon Ground School was an absolute piece of **** compared to uni.:D

[druglord]

our systems ground school made the ATPL systems test look like a piece of **** and we had a week to do the course do the study and take the test... oh and pharmacy...I'm just a cartel lord not the chemist:)

[Hachiouji-shi]

druglord

anyone with a degree will be looked upon more favourably than one with merely a pilot's licence qualification. it's not a matter of which course is more difficult, it's the vast exposure one gains at uni and therefore the more resourceful one will be to a company.
a DEGREE, is ALWAYS beneficial. many people these days are making a big fuss about " what's the point of going to uni? you don't need a degree to fly! " because they are the perfect example of "what happens when you grow up flying with only a high school certificate and pilot's licence" - all they know is how to operate an aircraft (and bitch about management). if one is an AIRLINE PILOT, then be an AIRLINE PILOT. AIRLINE pilots must not only know how to fly, they must possess the FOUNDATION of KNOWLEDGE about AIRLINE BUSINESS. the right degree program will provide these fundamental knowledge and skills.

[Capt Snooze]

Well Hachiouji-shi...............

Clearly your degree course did not include the component 'Windups 101'. :D :D

A nice try for an amateur though! Just a tad over the top to achieve a passing grade. ;) ;)

Back to the books for you laddie.

:) :) :)

[Hachiouji-shi]

Clearly. you're one of "those" I was refering to (if you don't have one). Thanks for posting your reply as it just backs up my statement, right place, right time. You got to evolve with the world.

[Islander Jock]

a DEGREE, is ALWAYS beneficial. many people these days are making a big fuss about " what's the point of going to uni? you don't need a degree to fly! " because they are the perfect example of "what happens when you grow up flying with only a high school certificate and pilot's licence" - all they know is how to operate an aircraft (and bitch about management).

BWWWAAAAHHHHH! I have lost count of the successful managers I know, myself included, without a uni education who are doing quite nicely in both aviation and management.

HS, sounds like you're starting to believe those patronising sales pitches we hear on commercial radio at uni enrolment times. Perhaps some people just need formal education more than others ;)

[OpsNormal]

....it's the vast exposure one gains at uni.....

To what exactly? The real world? I hardly think so.

Uni's are good, in their place.

One thing they cannot do is dish out the 'hard knocks' of potential un-employment at a moments notice, of working at a trade or otherwise in the working environment outside uni's.

Your aspersion that airlines are gonna look at you with rose coloured glasses and forget/disregard all others if you have a uni degree is a smidgen departed from reasonable thinking. Yep, I'd definetely reckon that you would be looked at as at least 'educated', but the wealth of experience that prior and differing qualifications in other fields would bring more of a sense of balance to one's application to major airlines.

I've just witnessed this very thing. Congrats Boss, you've certainly earned it, and you've certainly given me new drive and determination to get there, thank-you. :D

[Capt Snooze]

Hachiouji-shi......................................

Still a windup. :D

(Slightly better attempt :cool: )


:) :) :)

[drshmoo]

it started on the other thread as a wind up.:p

[Ang737]

I dont think I can speak for the vast majority but I will attempt to in saying that those who claim that a degree is a waste of time usually have no idea what is involved both cost and work wise and therefore dont have one.

I personally find that if one can afford a degree then why not... ???? What is the big disadvantge of having one. I am due to complete mine soon at unsw and I am a damn sight proud of what I have done. Try though that ATPL is the one to get. No one will look at you without those subjects.

IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT GO FOR IT:) :) :)

[LooseConnection]

From reading your posts "Hachioji-shi" I'd say you have just stepped onto the street of life and are still very wet behind the whatsits! :D

It is fact that knowledge however gained is valuable and to someone as ignorant as you with obviously a nicely framed degree who cannot understand that you do not have to go to university to gain knowledge, you obviously learned nothing while paying for it.

Some of the greatest movers and shakers in industry and life got there degrees on the streets for free.

Likewise some very good aviators got their knowledge at the same school of life and we didn't need some "snotty nosed" academic justifying their closeted existence by handing out nicely framed degrees.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

Be a pleasure to have you as my F/O oneday sonny you may learn something - IF YOU WANT TO :D :D

[drshmoo]

Looseconnection. My degree is mounted on a golden plaque............nice:p
right next to your year 10 tech drawing award

[druglord]

haichi-jou,
perhaps you are winding up...if so I appreciate it...it's nice to get a windup on a topic i originated. If not, I'm talking from past experience. I have a degree and an airline job, albeit a regional and I can tell you now, that none of the jobs that i've had have even mentioned degrees except what I've had in my resume.

As for life experience from uni....come off it...unless you consider drinking beer a life experience. Uni lecturers know nothing of the real aviation world anyway...like the saying goes...those who can do it, those who can't teach.

[RamAirTurbine]

If you wish to get a degree, I recommend something other than an aviation degree. My thoughts would be get something that maybe useful to you should your aviation career take a downfall due to whatever reason. (You can always do an aviation degree later on in life if you wish)

Regardless of what people say, a degree of whatever sort should put you in good sted in an interview - it shows that you have the capacity to study, the ability to solve problems, and furthermore should improve your communication and interpersonal skills - something a fair proportion of the aviation community lacks.

[*Lancer*]

RamAirTurbine has got it in one - well, the second paragraph anyway! Uni degrees are excellent for all the reasons RAT mentioned - and the airlines know it.

Regarding the first paragraph... it's a good and valid argument, but to provide a contrasting view: I've only ever wanted to fly, so why do anything else? Most of the aviation degrees around provide avenues for other jobs within the industry. Also, a lot of industries recommended a degree, so isn't an aviation degree as valid in these other industries, as a non-aviation degree is to being a pilot! It's an overly simplistic view of course, but surely you should study what interests you. :D

Regardless, druglord you are absolutely correct in claiming an aviation degree has no value (for you anyway). Your attitude towards it would prevent you from receiving any benefit. The valid, coherant, and intelligent point of view that RAT has is what's needed to reap the rewards of any degree. Strangely enough it's what airlines like too!

Lancer

Edited to try to offset the results of a long day at work :)

[megle2]

Can't resist this one. It can be a wind up both ways! Love it!

Maybe we can look at it this way -

How many of Qantas / Virgin present senior staff such as Chief Pilots, Fleet Managers, Line Captains, C/T Captains, Ops Managers ect have Uni aviation degrees?

In 15 / 20 years time it will reverse. But will things be better?

Doubt it.

[*Lancer*]

megle2, I'm not sure whether you're implying that senior staff do or don't have degrees... but many of the Qantas senior pilots do. Its all part of professional development isn't it?

[druglord]

lancer,
all, i'm saying is that my degree, though it was an aviation degree helped me in no tangible way that i can see. It taught me nothing about real world flying, it had no contribution whatsoever to gettting an airline job, and all I can do is hope that some other airline that i apply for in the future will want that block filled for the exact reasons I mentioned in my first post and that just maybe...will be a contributing factor. I don't know what it's done for you, but I think you're overating the benefits a degree has for MOST flying jobs.

[Keg]

druggie, you're absolutely correct that a degree does nothing for you in terms of flying an aircraft and actually doing the job. I'm doing one now and some of the things that I've got from it include:
Increased awareness and knowledge of the aviation industry and therefore greater confidence when discussing issues such as training, economics, HF, CRM, etc, etc. I've also improved significantly my writing skills, spelling and a whole heap of other things that matter not one zot when driving the aircraft but will assist in other ways over the years.

[druglord]

Keg! I couldn't have said it better. Sure uni is beneficial in many other facets of life, but as for it's contribution to flying or even getting a job...doesn't seem to make one iota of difference. If I could do it all over again i would still do uni again, but I think some of our laureates have succumbed to uni propoganda.
I'm sure there's not a first employer operator out there that would prefer a uni background to a mechanical experience background....not out bush anyway.

[*Lancer*]

Well I guess it's what you make of it then! :) And that will vary from person to person...

The career progression to airline in Aust/NZ is significantly different to other countries (Europe, Asia, US), where GA features less in the process. As aviation continues to become more automated with different system design philosophies, the recruiting practices employed overseas might find their way to our part of the world... The role of the pilot has the very likely potential to be completely different in less than 20 years - but that's a different pandora's box altogether! :)

Anyway - points taken, nuff said.

Lancer

[pistol_pete]

What age did those of you who have one, do your degree? I am thinking of doing my CPL/ATPL and building up my flight hours then going to uni after that if at all, does this sound wise or not? my ultimate goal being flying for an airline at some point in the future.

Thanks

[rmcdonal]

I am currently working toward a CPL and Am looking at a UNI degree.
Either B in Aviation
or
Airline Manegment.


But from what I have been able to make out in this conversation there is some argument about its worth. What is the recomendation of an actual Airline pilot (regonal or Int) I ask your opinion as you have the job I am working toward.

Thanks in Advance
:confused:

[druglord]

yeah do it straight out of high school if possible. you'll be with people your age and doing it by extension ain't possible if you're working.

[Keg]

I think druggie means if you're working in GA. I'm doing pretty well on getting most of it done whilst away WITH work.

The big catch is that once you are Distance Education you can't go HECS and have to cough up the cash up front. Depending on the level of Recognition of Prior Learning you get depends on how much it'll cost. I got max RPL and it'll still cost me $10K.

[Mr. Hat]

Have one and it did squat for me when it came to getting a job in GA. Doubt it will make a big difference for the airlines. There are lots of pros and cons really.

The biggest Pro - the contacts I made during the degree are worth more than all the bells/whistles and degrees in the world.

The biggest con - put me 3 yrs behind in age vs hour/experience.

[Dave Incognito]

Keg,

if that is for the entire degree you are doing pretty well. I did it through HECS (>14k) and I'm now finding that my salary deductions are only just covering the interest on the loan. :(

If you can afford it, upfront payment isn't such a bad option.

[locusthunter]

My Aviation degree is being very handy right now for helping me get out of the Aviation Industry!! (New year- new job!)

So, contrary to popular belief - they are useful !!!

Degree or no degree... good luck to you all...




:cool:

[drshmoo]

I did my degree straight out of high school and I woulnd't change it for the world. Some of my colleagues that started a little later found that the maths etc wasn't as straight forward and required a little more work. Also they were out of the study routine for too long. But in saying this, they brought more life experience and a lot more maturity. I hope that the degree will help me at the right end (airlines) but at the GA end there is no real help. My CP doesn't care for Uni degrees. My contacts have been many, not only from my own year but the courses preceeding and following. The point that an individual can lose out in the age vs experience is a little true. I could have been CPL, NVFR, MECIR, ATPL theory in around 1 year at age 19 but uni was over 3 years and accomplished these at 21. But with a degree. Uni life is great though, plenty of chicks and huge nights out but HECS is the real killer. Those bastards that started this crime (HECS) rode on the back of free tertiary education and I'm paying for it at a stage where I cant afford it. (Prepay-its worth it). Its worth noting that you don't need a degree to be able to fly an aeroplane but its better to have one and to be not just a button pusher. Uni gives you a look at the game from a broader scale. Uni is not for everyone but It was for me.

[druglord]

Pistol Pete,
Don't do your flying first then uni...by time you finish uni you'll have trouble flying straight and level unless you somehow manage to keep flying whilst doing uni. That ain't gonna be easy. uni is a full-time job while you're there. I quit flying for six months while i finished it up and that saved me some $. If anything do uni then flying... I wouldn't even try to do them together again... you just don't have time for both.

[benoss]

I am currently doing a uni degree in Aus and i think that it definately opens your eyes in terms of other things associated with flying, CRM HF etc.
I wouldnt wait till after you finnish flying because then you will get a job (hopefuly) and you will just keep putting it off.

Whats the harm in more education? An airline will not look at it as a bad thing surely?

[Ref + 10]

Better to do it and wish you hadn't than not do it and wish you had!

[Keg]

Everyone keeps forgetting about something called 'Distance Education'. I've got two young kids and run an Air Force Cadet Squadron as well as flogging around in a 767. Fitting the degree in around all that is EASIER than my work with the cadets!

[Mr Garrison]

esreverlluf you are so right!

I have completed a Bachelor of Comp.Sc and I must say that doing commercial ground school theory was easy compared to university. Uni study especially computers is a very tough course and there are lots of drop outs as you progress the ranks.

What a degree shows an employer is not necessarily the content you studied but more about your character. It shows that the person can stick it out and get through some mentally tough work and that the individual has the tenancity to work hard at achieving something.

If the person can work hard and achieve, then this is very favourable if the degree is coupled with flight experience. I know who I would choose if I was the selector.

[Ang737]

Hi All

I am currently doing the degree at UWS and worry after Costello, Peter and not Abbots couterpart, delivered the federal budget. The UWS course is by distance ed meaning that there is no HECS debt that one can accumulate and must fit the bill for each subject up front. At $1250 per 10 credit subject this is no a cheap option but now in the budget, unis have the right to up their fees to whatever they chose. I worry that the state of tertiary education in Australia could end up similar to the yank system where only the rich can afford to attend.

Thats my peice

Ang ;)

[EngineOut]

So that you know which side of the fence I sit on, I'll start by saying that I have done an aviation degree (finished a few years back).

First of all, I do not think any of you guys who are still at uni are in any place to comment on what usefulness of having a degree is - you won't know until you get out there and experience it yourself.

For those that have not done one and say that it is not worth it, you are not in a position to comment either, even if you have made it into a 747.

There has never been a problem having too much education, unless you let it go to your head and think you are the better than others. You will never know if you are going to need something you have learned or experienced in the past until you need to call on it.

Most of what you learn at uni is good stuff, but there is also some useless stuff. What I will say is that you learn more at uni than you would if you just went and got your licence. What I CAN say is that you will learn a hell of a lot more when you are out there working and slogging your guts out and trying just to stay awake at the end of a long week than you ever will at uni. I have had the opportunity to call on stuff I learnt at uni several times, and not when I was necessarily flying a plane around.

The fact that you may have a degree will not open doors for you automatically. It is what YOU do with the knowledge/skills and experience you gain from working that will get you places. You meet a lot of good people at uni, and stay friends with them long after you graduate.

Overall, I will say that it was worth it and I have no regrets; it's just a shame about the HECS debt that lingers long after...

EO

[Tinstaafl]

A degree might be useful as a pilot. I stress 'might'. Depends what sort of degree you do. If it's 'Underwater Basket Weaving' and similar advanced topics then you've wasted your time & money. Unless you score a job as a pilot for a basket weaving firm.

Will it be any use getting a job in GA? Chances are not. Maybe if you did course such as tourism & are applying to a joyflight/charter operator in a tourist area.

Will it be any use in GA? Again, probably not but see above. IT could be a good one though. Not many smaller companies can afford an IT dept. to manage their systems so the equipment ends up being glorified typewriters.

Will it be any use getting an airline job? A qualified maybe. Does the airline specify a degree as a prerequisite? If so then yes: It gets you past the first filter. If not then maybe, maybe not. Depends if you can 'sell' whatever skills/knowledge you feel you gained to the selection board. Will the members of the selection board be receptive? Depends if they themselves have a degree AND if they've ever found their degree useful or a waste of time.

Will it be any use once employed in an airline? Perhaps. What degree was done and is it germaine eg Business/commerce degrees if you move towards management, psychology/education if you move towards training, psychology/engineering etc for safety investigation or equipment design/selection etc etc.

But if you went to uni & spent 3 years partying while 'studying' for your underwater basket weaving course, then forget it.

[Transition Layer]

I guess the employers are the ones who will ultimately decide whether it's useful or not. Those of us who have done one will have their own opinion on the matter - and the satisfaction that goes with completing it. That's what really counts.

Just as an aside, if Qantas (for example) didn't care, they wouldn't put that a tertiary education (Aviation degree or otherwise) section in their employment application would they?

The contacts have also been great. One particular Western Australian town was referred to as the "Kimberley Campus" at one stage due to the high number of graduates from a certain University working there.

P.S. Tinstaafl The partying was great by the way, although remember quite a few nights that involved going home early in preparation of a flight the next morning. But you get that I spose.